General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsObama and Biden may have actually listened to the NRA
According to NBC news last night, one of the executive actions will be to "enforce existing laws". Actually prosecute straw purchasers. Actually prosecute gun dealers who knowingly sell to unqualified buyers.
NRA, GOA, and other "gun groups" have been advocating this approach for years. at least as far back as the WJC administration. It's not as "sexy" as passing new laws, but maybe more effective.
Arkansas Granny
(31,532 posts)This would be a good place to start while they consider other measures.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,369 posts)I'd like to see some bad gun dealers go to jail
Along with some bankers, politicians, insurance providers, oursourcers, tax evaders.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)We have Aaron Swartz being prosecuted (and killing himself) over downloading JSTOR documents and now we see that maybe we are not enforcing existing gun laws that could save lives (but we are enforcing other laws that save some people some money).
Before adding new laws maybe we should try to enforce the ones we already have - why make new ones if they won't be enforced either?
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)but what does this have to do with the NRA or new gun laws?
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)We have laws we do not enforce.
We tend to enforce laws that pay back the system (ones where we can get fines) so other laws go unheeded (lack of money/manpower/etc)
If you can, btw, explain what he was guilty of - from all I can tell it was using computer network at MIT and downloading things he had legitimate access to (JSTOR). It was thought his intent was to put those items online for free, something he had not yet done.
Prosecutors can be political creatures and go for big name things and let other things slide. Guy buys a gun at a garage sale, has a friend buy it for him, etc and he does not use it to harm anyone and no one wants to waste the time/money to prosecute.
Probably because, like speeding, it happens all the time. Every day. People download/upload things to pirate bay. Every dang day. And they are all considered as law breakers. By the millions. How many are prosecuted?
Make a new law when you cannot, or will not, enforce the old ones and what the heck is the point?
The point comes out when you have people in power, prosecutors, who use the law here and there to further their own careers and the coffers of the city/state/fed.
How many speeders go by cops each day and are not stopped? Too many to count, so we let people slide except in the worst cases mostly. Sure, a lot of tickets are written but the number of people speeding is thousands of times higher.
Enforcement takes time, money, and people power (which costs money). Go ahead and make new laws - just sit down though and think about the reality of how it gets enforced and prosecuted.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)I like the idea of tickets of having a camera ticket everyone who runs red lights or speeds
Take away the insurance aspect, as cameras can't tell who is driving, but its a win/win/win
If you do the crime, do the time. Pay the fine.
If one isn't speeding or running red lights, they won't get a ticket.
And there will be a camera to prove it.
Cameras are a good thing
Transparency is good, but only if applied to law enforcement. Let's video everything.
I have nothing to hide.
And lets get 100% of guns out of the street
with camera and sensors to tell us when a gun is on the street
(after changing the laws)
and let's reclassify mass shootings as terrorist wmd events, and let's deal with it, like was done in Oklahoma City.
19 kids died in Oklahoma, 20 kids in CT, plus 6 adults
I see no difference, so let's treat it the same
and if there are laws to get the streets free of guns (while letting private owners keep their guns in the house), then it will stop these incidents
I would have zero tolerance for mass shootings.
And say 25 years added to sentences for anyone who fires more than one shot in the street.
(also have zero release of names of shooters, that way they avoid becoming famous from nutjobs).
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Do you think Adam Lanza was thinking about the law when he did what he did?
I live in a bad area. One of the kids I know here comes up to chat when I am outside for smokes. Some months ago he showed me a sawed off shotgun he had hidden in his pants. He is 17 and I am guessing he stole it (said it was his uncles'). He smokes pot and drinks as well.
He and his friends steal things and sell them (mostly bikes but sometimes guns and tools).
I doubt a day goes by he is not breaking some law or other, and I know, off hand, 4 other kids like him I see daily here.
I have witnessed people, time and again, breaking into abandoned homes here and the cops do nothing. I caught two guys breaking into my old house, got their plate (was a dealer plate), called the cops, and when they finally came out did not even write a report or record their plate number (I later found the dealer and found out that the plate was stolen - you can get dealer plate info here in Ohio from the BMV).
With a phone call I can buy just about any drug, weapons, etc and have them delivered to my damn front door.
Make more laws, let's see how well they get enforced, especially in poorer areas of town. Once a week for months, and that is no exaggeration, I saw people breaking into my x's house that was on the foreclosure list and called the cops. Not once, ever, was anyone arrested ---people said they were with the bank...they were not, cops did not check and told them to put things back and move on. They had a key - Bank of America uses 2 keys nationwide for locks they put on foreclosures and lots of people have them. The cops see they have a key, shrug, and tell them without the paperwork they can't take things.
I have watched people I can tell are career criminals do this time and again around here. I have even taken photos of them doing it - and nothing gets done.
Laws do not make us safer unless they are enforced, and we need to focus on that first - but it takes time and a lot of money (read more taxes).
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)and two wrongs don't make a right. but I don't see the connection between banks
and mass murderers and hackers.
Who cares about a bank? What the hell does banks have to do with mass murderers?
NOTHING
take the banks to a bank thread.
There are a million issues out there.
You have your personal issues, I will stick with mine.
I am sure many others will have your issues.
Many others will have mine.
This kids doings really are not my concern, just as it appears gun killings don't seem to bother the NRA or their backers.
I am more interested in a guilty verdict for Zimmerman the judge jury executioner in Florida.
You must agree, he shot an innocent kid to death just to watch him die, and either the death penalty(if he is conviceted and its a death penalty charge), or life in prison for him
I more care about those Asian children who are pressed so hard in school, that if they get an
a minus, they kill themselves, not able to take the pressure.
What are your feelings of the 100s who kill themselves each year because they consider
an A- a bad grade?
But then we all have our personal issues.
Of course, the 20 kids who died in CT won't get a chance to grow up to cure cancer or be criminals or a hacker, because their personal choice has been taken away from them from a gun.
And Mr. Trayvon Martin won't grow up to cure Alzheimer's.
All because of a gun and a bullet.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)All because of a person actually. One who probably had broken the law before and was not gone after....
In 2005, Zimmerman was charged with assaulting a police officer and resisting arrest, after shoving an officer while a friend of Zimmerman's was being questioned about underage drinking. The charges were reduced, then dropped when Zimmerman entered a pre-trial diversion program. Also in 2005, Zimmerman's ex-fiance filed a restraining order against him, alleging domestic violence.
"Who cares about a bank? What the hell does banks have to do with mass murderers?
NOTHING
take the banks to a bank thread. "
Um, who do you think finances gun companies, wars, drones, drug lords, etc?
Every gun company in the US and dealers use banks to keep in business, and the banks make a lot of money off of them.
From a UK website:
Board Chairman letter
Copy,paste and adapt to make it personal
Dear Chairman,
I believe it is your responsibility to ensure that the affairs of (insert name of bank) are conducted to the highest ethical business standards. As a customer and/or shareholder I wish to know whether the bank is funding enterprises involved in the production or distribution of arms and if it is whether you will, in your position as chairman, ensure that any such investment is in future discontinued on ethical grounds, rather than merely ensuring compliance with present legislation and government guidelines. HSBC seems to manage well enough without investing in arms. Yours sincerely,
(customer/share holder)
http://www.noguns.co.uk/banks.html
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)and let's make contributing to the NRA equal to contributing to a terror organization
and then let's fight guns under the war powers act, as we have and continue to as authorized three times by Congress, a war on terrror, and the president can do whatever he wants as Congress authorized any war on terror and the patriot act three times.
If they reclassify things to terror, then not doing something as you say would be wrong.
So let's do something.
Tunkamerica
(4,444 posts)classic
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)19 kids in Oklahoma City
20 kids and 6 adults in CT
3000 people on 9-11
it's all the same, dead=dead
so let's treat it as terror and do similiar
moriah
(8,311 posts)Wouldn't you, if the federal government was coming after you for what many have claimed to be the equivalent of borrowing too many library books?
The point was that it's sad which laws are being enforced to the fullest possible (and what some would call a ridiculous) extent, and which aren't, and suggesting a re-appraisal of priorities. I'm sure you realize that, though.
DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav
(408 posts)make sure to protect the big corporations from illegal downloading, but when your house gets robbed in many states they'll just tell you to go online and fill out a form for your insurance. Police don't have time to deal with your break in but they'll show up when wallmart calls in a shoplifter for a 5 dollar item. LEO's purpose is to protect the government and the corporation. Neither have any money lost to illegal gun sales, so until after someone gets shot no one cares and no one shows up.
stultusporcos
(327 posts)and underfund the BATF and block appointments of directors.
But most people have no clue that this has been going on for a long time now and is a favorite tactic of the RW, defund/under fund program then scream how it is a worthless org
.. rinse, wash, repeat.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)to stop the Orly Taitz and other conspiracy theorists from wasting taxpayer money like the NRA does
Pholus
(4,062 posts)It is how Republicans work! They whine and whine and whine and if someone listens to them and says "okay let's do that you just wanted" then they pivot about and whine about how unreasonable that is too.
It's the Republican Way and let's face it, the NRA is a Republican organization so they use the same playbook.
liberal N proud
(60,346 posts)Javaman
(62,534 posts)"I am now going to outline a series of measures that myself, VP Biden and the NRA have agreed are what are needed..."
This groups the NRA in with his statement and puts the ball of partial responsibility of the gun changes upon them.
watch the gun nuts implode in a short circuit of contradiction.
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)Reading thru his Executive Orders only one: Releasing a DOJ report on Lost and Stolen, seems to touch on the issue of Straw purchases.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,369 posts)The 23 EOs don't add up to "enforce existing laws".
Oh, well, maybe after the next massacre.
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)So they don't catch the headlines.
But they are a real part of the everyday firearms deaths in cities all over this country.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,369 posts)Not just the ones exported to Mexico for the cartels.
One of the EOs might help a little:
9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.
... but only if it leads to prosecution of straw buyers, sellers, and dealers who habitually participate in this.
sarisataka
(18,775 posts)is an NRA talking point. If you are not a deep cover RW troll, please come back with a valid argument.
For any who missed it-
former9thward
(32,082 posts)It is not possible. I am no longer a prosecutor but I was one for a major city. While in law school I worked at an U.S. Attorney's office. It is absolutely impossible to enforce all laws and prosecute all crimes. There is simply not enough people, money or resources.
Ask any prosecutor about the "straw purchases" law. It is nearly impossible to obtain a conviction with that law unless the defendant confesses. Priorities must be set. We should get aggressive with mental illness in terms of institutionalism. The idea of getting doctors to report is a huge mistake. People will not tell the truth when seeking mental health or they simply will not go.