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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWebster, N.Y., sniper's ex-neighbor charged with buying him guns
By Richard A. Serrano, Washington Bureau
December 28, 2012, 5:21 p.m.
WASHINGTON A former neighbor of the Webster, N.Y., sniper who killed two volunteer firefighters on Christmas Eve illegally bought the guns used in the killing, federal authorities charged Friday.
Dawn M. Nguyen, 24, of Greece, N.Y., was charged in federal court with acting as a straw purchaser for William Spengler, who as a felon could not legally buy guns for himself. Spengler was convicted of killing his grandmother in 1980. Nguyen also faces state felony charges on allegations of falsifying business records.
U.S. Atty. William J. Hochul Jr. said Nguyen purchased a Bushmaster .223 semiautomatic rifle and a Mossberg 12-gauge shotgun from the Gander Mountain store in Rochester on June 6, 2010. But in truth, he said, she "knowingly made a false statement in connection with the purchase of the two firearms" and actually was acquiring them for Spengler.
She did not immediately enter a plea in the more serious federal case, in which she could face 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.
more
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-webster-guns-20121229,0,3915051.story
atreides1
(16,083 posts)At least now we know where he got the weapons from...someone who could legally purchase them...wonderful!!!
MichiganVote
(21,086 posts)Poor families of the firefighters.
Bake
(21,977 posts)It's not legal to buy them for someone else, ergo, she broke the law.
Having said that, I'm not sure how you enforce that particular provision if someone is going to lie (sign a form saying you're not buying it for anyone else).
Bake
Throd
(7,208 posts)I say this as someone who is rather pro 2nd ammendment.
obamanut2012
(26,083 posts)I think she will be in Federal prison for the entire ten years, and then have serve time in a state prison for 5-20. It's not even like she can plea bargain.
WTF would anyone do that for someone who should STILL be in prison for BEATING his grannie to death.
Bohunk68
(1,364 posts)the first thing that popped into my mind was: did the guy threaten her in some way if she didn"t? Was there an abusive relationship there? Her last name appears Vietnamese to me. Hmmmmmmmmmmm Let's wait for some more information.
obamanut2012
(26,083 posts)Glassunion
(10,201 posts)That said, it is an incredibly popular last name (if not the most popular Vietnamese last name) and personally I have seen many folks of different ethnicities that have that last name. My guess is through marriage. If I am not mistaken, and correct me if I am, but from what I understand is that the family name (what we refer to as our last name) in the past was often taken on as a sign of respect for a king or to avoid persecution or prosecution in some cases.
So you could have thousands if not hundreds of thousands of folks take on that name without any relation.
should throw the book at her and make her case widely known. Hopefully that would serve to put fear of prison into anyone thinking about making a straw purchase in the future. If they enforced all the laws on the books and made a few examples of people who broke those laws on a nation level, I think it would go a lot further than banning a metal box with a spring in it or a rifle with a pistol grip.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)An assault weapon ban alone is not going to prevent this kind of thing from happening.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Quelle surprise, I know.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)Well, enough's enough. NRA = Not Relevant Anymore.
JI7
(89,254 posts)it's like people who support pot legalization being so against taxing it. or even against selling to minors.
why oppose such reasonable things ?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Sell more guns.
Punishing straw buyers goes against that goal.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)They would be all for this.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Obviously, we need to punish straw purchasers. But getting more ATF agents is currently impossible; hell, they can't even get a head of the ATF through the Tea Party assholes in Congress.
We need more agents, and more prosecutors. Legalize pot, and free up prison space for straw purchasers.
We're spending $40,000 a year to put a stoner in prison? Instead of straw purchasers?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)Bad government is a hallmark of the modern conservative movement.
But will the gun nuts listen...nooooooooooo
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)It should be stopped, but how? You're talking about people who have no problem lying when they know it's a criminal act, and no problem lying when they know the person they're buying the guns for killed someone before.
So how would you stop it?
spanone
(135,854 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)just turn around and sell them to someone later. Maybe her dad said, "What, are you crazy, buying those guns? No way...I'll buy 'em from you, and don't go buyin' any more guns."
So it'd have to be a restriction that the purchaser cannot "give" the guns to anyone for at least one year or something like that. Although she'll say she just loaned them to him.
It's a vicious circle. This is unusual, though. I've never heard of anyone buying guns for a released but convicted murderer.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)All used gun sales would have to be brokered through a dealer, who could handle paperwork for background check, and hold the gun for the waiting period. While this wouldn't completely eliminate guns getting in the hands of felons (there would be a black market), it would make a serious dent.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Any person who can't go thru a background check can buy from an individual and not have to go through a background check.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Contrary to popular belief on DU, most gun-owners aren't a bunch of yahoo cowboys, and don't want guns to fall in the hands of criminals. Now the NRA is going to oppose it, but gun dealers might support it, since they would be making a bit of money brokering all the former private sales. Of course, if the antis insist on targeting legal registered owners, nothing meaningfull will happen. The two extreme positions will never find a common ground, they should just bow out of the discussion and let reasonable people come up with a workable plan.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)"Why EXACTLY do you need this gun? Please provide at least five valid reasons. If your answer is found unsatisfactory, the gun license will not be issued."
People who really need a gun shouldn't have a problem with that, should they?
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)valid reasons, so could the criminal, which is what that woman is.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)and why she should have been denied.
sir pball
(4,743 posts)It's just a background check, nothing more, to theoretically ensure that you aren't legally banned from owning a firearm. Once the check comes back clear, that's that. Some states/municipalities do require a license but that's something you acquire separately and just present at the time of purchase, when you generally still undergo the background check. Upstate New York does not require a license for owning long guns, so she didn't need to offer any reason.
NYS DOES have an Assault Weapons Ban though, stricter than the 1994 national one, and anything that would have a prayer of passing today...I guess that means the rifle wasn't an "assault weapon"?
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)since with the exception of Hawaii we are all physically connected to one another. I wasn't arguing fine points of any state law with anyone; I was merely stating what I thought would be a better system for all 50 states. Which would be: You've said you need this gun. Tell us why.
To me, a legitimate answer would be that you hunt or just enjoy shooting as a sport. Or you live someplace rural, own livestock, and have a predator issue.
And as you've probably guessed my definition of what defines an assault weapon would be wider than in any current law.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)She was a "good law-abiding RTKBA enthusiast" exercising her 2nd Amendment rights.
Ghost in the Machine
(14,912 posts)just makes you a laughingstock to start with. As a person who has been a law-abiding gun owner for 43 out of soon to be 50 years on this planet, this lady was NOT a "good law-abiding RTKBA enthusiast" exercising her 2nd Amendment rights."
She was a CRIMINAL who was KNOWINGLY filing false papers for someone whom she knew wasn't allowed to purchase a gun, but was probably making enough to pay her mortgage payments and have plenty of money left over to enjoy other things in life. It still didn't change the FACT that what she did WAS A CRIMINAL ACT! Now she has to be prepared to take the punishment that goes along with her crimes I personally hope she made an example of and pays a HUGE fine *AND* does jail time!!!
I wonder if there is some kind of group we could broad brush people like YOU in????
Ghost
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)thucythucy
(8,080 posts)"...as a person who has been a law-abiding gun owner for 43 out of soon to be 50 years on this planet..."
Now that's just plain scary. What the hell were your parents thinking?
thucythucy
(8,080 posts)at age six.
Ghost in the Machine
(14,912 posts)..... but I digress. Where to begin??? Let us try here:
84. You owned a gun when you were six years old?
"...as a person who has been a law-abiding gun owner for 43 out of soon to be 50 years on this planet..."
Now that's just plain scary. What the hell were your parents thinking?
Yes, I got my first air rifle at 6, did a lot of practicing, plus had tons of safety drilled into my head by my dad and uncle, both who had just gotten out of the Navy, and another uncle who was still active Air Force. After a year of using the air rifle with no accidents or incidences, I got my first .22 rifle. Living in Miami, it stayed locked in a gun cabinet in my dads room, until we had the chance to spend a day, on the weekend, out in the Everglades where there were places to shoot. Every time we went shooting, I had safety drilled into my head.
When I was 13, we moved to Tennessee, and had a place with some acreage.. I was allowed to use my .22 much more often, usually under supervision of a parent, until they KNEW that I had listened to all their safety talks, plus I had taken the Hunters Safety course offered at my school. Yes, we had a local Game Warden who came to the school every year, twice a year, to teach Hunters Safety *and* Boaters Safety. I got my first deer rifle, for xmas, when I was 15. I got my first shotgun for my 16th birthday.
What is so scarey about that?? As for what my parents were thinking, you would have to ask them, but I would venture to guess they were thinking they were raising a well adjusted kid who knew how to pay attention and wasn't a psycho nut.
Is there anything else I can help you with??
Peace,
Ghost
thucythucy
(8,080 posts)it's just been my experience here that once a thread is more than a few days old people tend not to revisit, and I was genuinely curious about your answer.
Unless you had the key or combination to the gun cabinet, it was actually your parents who were the responsible gun owners, at least until you were of age--sixteen or so. It may sound like a technical point to you, but I think it's an important one.
As for them "thinking they were raising a well adjusted kid who knew how to pay attention and wasn't a psycho nut"--well, that's probably the case with most parents who introduce their kids to guns at an early age, including the ones who turn out to be, shall we say, "less well adjusted." We don't know too many verifiable details, as yet, about the Connecticut shooter's family, but I doubt his mother or anyone else were thinking, "Adam is growing up to be an absolute sociopath with homicidal tendencies, let's teach him how to shoot." Same deal with the man who killed John Lennon, who was "mentored" as a child by an adult who taught him how to use a firearm. I recall an interview with the guy who said, basically, "I never expected him to kill anybody." Well, let's hope not.
Which is the whole point. In your case it turned out well (thus far), but I still think six or eight or even twelve years old is a little young to be training anyone how to use a lethal weapon. Gun safety, yes, but not anything like firearms proficiency.
Just my humble opinion.
Best wishes,
Thucy
whistler162
(11,155 posts)you do seem to love to roll around in death and destruction while pretending piety!
bongbong
(5,436 posts)Who revel in every story of some "thug" (wink wink - to a gun-nut that means a black person) getting gunned down when doing something that a Delicate Flower finds objectionable.
whistler162
(11,155 posts)anything to stop creating a actual solution.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Bet five bucks we'd never find the straw purchaser, let alone see actual prosecution.
I hope saith person donates those funds to a victims fund somewhere.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Hope she gets the full 10 years, and that this gets LOTS of air time as an example for other potential asses.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Last edited Sat Dec 29, 2012, 05:42 AM - Edit history (1)
Her actions are directly complicit in homicide. I consider ten years to be getting off easy.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)I see little difference in that and this, yet even our resident gun cultists admit to selling their guns without going through a licensed dealer for background checks and proper paperwork. Mention registration so we can track where weapons came from would have Gungeoneers screaming and calling on Wayne LaPierre to suggest a half-arsed solution.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)...between buying a bottle of rum for a 18-year-old, and buying a bottle of rum for yourself and having your kid swipe it from the liquor cabinet 3 months later.
Not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea.
Registration is a crap idea, but I support background checks for all transfers, even intrastate private sales.
You'll notice that the police were able to track down the original purchaser of the gun, without registration.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)a background check (too cheap to go to a licensed dealer, or more likely just doesn't give a dang), or has one stolen because of improper storage or just having too many of the dang things.
Registration is an excellent idea, but gun owners are really afraid it will let law enforcement either track them down if they shoot an unarmed teen, have one stolen, sell it to a non-law-abiding fun buddy, etc. Same for micro stamping, etc.
Ask anyone in law enforcement how registration would help them.
BTW -- Never had a chance to congratulate you on "allowing" your gun buddy, rdigital, back into Gungeon after being forced to ban him -- only to have admin can his rear for being a right wing troll. I find that hilarious and proof of the what the Gungeon has become.
Oh, how did you feel about LaPierre's brilliant solution?
Enjoy your guns in the New Year.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Because all gun owners jack off to the idea of being able to kill somebody and get away with it, right? Either with "stand your ground" or "castle doctrine" laws, or just eluding the police investigation.
Registration doesn't help. "Oh, we've got a dead body shot by a 9mm handgun. Let's check the list of 9mm registered handguns in town!" Real helpful. I mean, I know you get all red-faced and excited when gun registration is helpful in tracking down a killer in Law&Order: Special Victims Unit or whatever, but c'mon.
forthemiddle
(1,381 posts)If the sale wasn't originally registered, the police wouldn't have caught her.
The woman broke the law, and should be prosecuted as an accomplice to murder. She KNOWINGLY bought a gun for someone who should not have had one.
In this case, two laws were broken.
1) You have a felon who knows it is illegal for him to possess a firearm.
2) You have a neighbor, who seemingly knows that she is buying a gun for someone who shouldn't have one. (straw purchase which is illegal).
I am not an NRA supporter, and I am ignorant on past lobbying actions by them, but what law are they blocking that made this tragedy possible? That is an honest question.
If these two laws above were broken, they were obviously laws already. Is the NRA actively trying to overturn those laws?
To go after a whole group like the NRA is like the Freepers going after the whole of Planned Parenthood for championing late term abortions. Remember to them, abortion IS murder, and even though 95% of Planned Parenthood is helping poor women with contraceptives, they are convinced that the group is a bunch of murderers (that does nothing but contribute, and try and get Democrats elected). It is almost as bad as some on here that forget that the NRA does a HUGE amount of outreach hunter safety, and gun safety with the Eddie Eagle program.
They also champion domestic abuse victims rights to self protection.
Again, I AM NOT AN NRA MEMBER, or even an apologist. I just wanted to know which of these laws they are trying to overturn (straw purchases, or murderers being able to possess guns).
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Sorry I criticized the right wing, bigoted NRA and upset you.
forthemiddle
(1,381 posts)According to the article, this woman KNOWINGLY bought the gun for someone she knew could not possess one...
That is against the law already, and I was wondering (quite honestly since I don't keep up with their memes) if the NRA was actively trying to overturn that law.
How is that standing up for them? If they were trying to overturn them, then they are scum, but as far as I know they advocate more strongly enforcing the laws already on the book.
In this case I am trying to figure out what NEW law would have prevented this? That was all I was asking. I think this board so vehemently despises the NRA only because they support Republicans. That was the reason I brought up Planned Parenthood. 95% of what they do is helping women. I think most Freepers hate the PP NOT because of the small amount of abortions they do (after all we know they don't want to help support the BORN babies, only the unborn), but because they financially support Democrat candidates.
I am also not against some new gun control laws. Especially the magazine size, and allowing the general public access to the background data base, but I honestly want to know what laws would have prevented this case.
I also agree with someone who talked about providing alcohol to a minor. If they then go and get a DUI, the person who supplied the liquor is criminally charged. I think this woman should be charged as an accessory to murder.
I just get leary of overreacting with laws after a tragedy, just look at the Patriot Act......
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)I am not for allowing general public access to background checks, they aren't responsible enough and will not keep proper paper work as required.
Further, I'm not sure joe blow should be able to check on his neighbor under the guise of a background check.
Right this minute, any truly responsible gun owner can go to a gun shop, pay a fee, and have the gun shop do the check.
Of course, most gun owners only care about the cash they can get by selling an undocumented weapon, and couldn't care less about what happens afterwards, or that it might help law enforcement track down someone who shoots someone with a second-hand gun.
You are so wrong about the NRA. Look at their board -- which includes Grover Norquist, Ollie North, John Bolton, Teddy Nugent and worse and their subservience to gun manufacturers. Then look at their mostly right wing members. They are a bunch of right wing, bigots pushing more guns in more places, stand your ground BS, and worse.
jody
(26,624 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)At the NRA inspired, RW talking point? Nope.
To say this is all but surprising though would be a lie.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)jody
(26,624 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)Nothing.
That's what.
jody
(26,624 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)What does one thread have to do with the other?
jody
(26,624 posts)which they fought.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)I was going to write a kiss off post - then I realized, you're obsessed with arguing this
You think our military can DO NO WRONG
Obviously we disagree on this
You would love a military dictatorship, because then dissent against our most holy and high troops would be banned
I like free speech, and I FUCKING USE IT
Listen to me very clearly: we are not the fucking good guys when it comes to our military
Have you ever heard about how many rapes there are around foreign US military bases by soldiers?
Did you read any of the reports that Abu Gharaib was "just the tip of the iceberg" and how the ACLU was prevented from publishing hundreds of pictures by our government.
So you support this?
IF you do, I spit in your eye.
Response to Taverner (Reply #37)
Post removed
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But hey, whatever.
Personal attacks are fine though. And that is what you are doing.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Really, are you that dumb?
Iggo
(47,561 posts)geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)What is the point you are trying to make? It may be obvious to you but I am not seeing it.
This woman broke the law plain and simple. It is less clear that the DOJ broke the law.
jody
(26,624 posts)decide.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)...and the only case found where an ATF agent personally bought weapons and sold them to a straw purchaser was made by none other than ATF agent John Dodson, who is the same John Dodson who contacted Grassley. If anyone is to be prosecuted, that would be a great place to start, but I suspect those who are so interested in this case would cry even louder if that happened. It's also very telling that the same people who are just recently so concerned about guns making it across the border, never seemed to have a problem with it before.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)Something that us little people don't rate.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)What's up with that?
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Stop watching Fox News.
Loudly
(2,436 posts)We just need to shut down the product itself.
Please people. Take a lesson from the kiddie porn crusade. We don't give a damn how you got it. If you've got it, we're seizing it!
Loudly
(2,436 posts)So we can work our way back to where it's coming from.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)obamanut2012
(26,083 posts)Getting really tired of this new meme.
Robb
(39,665 posts)Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)Throw her in prison for the max time allowed. Those poor volunteer firefighters.
The gun deaths will continue as long as we are awash in guns.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)If you buy guns for felon and they go on to kill with them, you are complicit and should do HEAVY time in prison.
On the Road
(20,783 posts)better enforcement of current gun laws as an alternative to increased regulation.
They should be pleased with this prosecution. Want to bet a lot of them are outraged?
budkin
(6,703 posts)aikoaiko
(34,174 posts)And any additional charges that may be possible if that person, like the Webster shooter, commits crimes with the illegally purchased firearms.
I don't know anyone who would disagree with that.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I don't buy liquor for that 21 year old man outside the store who unfortunately lost his ID.
Why buy a gun for anyone who, for whatever reason they tell you, is not buying one for himself or herself?
Recording ALL transfers does not deprive anyone of a gun. It does, however, make make perspicacious transfors out of prospective transferors.
The point is to reduce the availability of these things to criminals, and making "responsible gun owners" responsible for the consequences of their bad judgment.
aikoaiko
(34,174 posts)Is more culpable than someone who doesn't.
But I Am ready to accede to all transfers going thru an FFL or at least a NICScheck.
But it would be nice to be something in exchange like lifting import bans.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The degree of intent can, like any other crime, increase the penalty. That's fine.
But when you limit to "known", you get into elaborate subterfuges, and difficulties of proof. Sure, sometimes there is clear evidence of that knowledge. But, the bottom line, is to limit availability to shady characters and those who make it their business not to "know" things.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)before the fact, at the very least.
Jesus: there's a dude who got life without parole in Florida because he lent some dudes his car to do a brek in, and they killed a person at the house. Guy wasn't even near the scene, and he caught a murder rap. But we have professional straw purchasers and their accomplice gun store owners feeding weapons directly to inner city gangs, and nobody does anything? if we're going to have "felony murder" charges for the first case, we should have it for the second, and that INCLUDES the GUN STORE OWNERS. Anyone who thinks they're ignorant of what's going on is a damn fool or a liar. They're getting rich off the legal-to-illicit market, and everyone - chief among them the gun nut assholes - knows it.
There should also be severe penalties (in the range of large fines) for failing to report your gun stolen or missing as soon as you know it is missing. $5,000 at a minimum.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)If anyone dies during the commission of a felony, the other felons can be charged with murder. A couple of cases that come to mind: in one, two guys stole a car, got drunk, wrecked it on the freeway. The driver was charged with the murder of the passenger, because someone had died while committing two felonoes. In another case, three guys broke into a house they thought was empty. It wasn't. The homeowner shot and killed one of the burglars; the other two burglars were charged with murder, because someone ad died during the commission of the robbery.
We could also just prohibit private gun sales, mandate federal & state weapon registrations (public or otherwise), institute civil liabilities, and mandate a database of gun barrel forensics (what they do when they "match the gun" on Law and Order, except performed by the manufacturer before the gun ever leaves the warehouse.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)20 if it's loaded.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...no fascist thugs run around busting into people's garages to see if they have auto insurance, and despite that fact, we have a remarkably high rate of compliance with the requirement to have auto insurance.
What some people don't get is that there are measures that do not interfere with "responsible gun owners", but do (a) require them to actually be responsible gun owners and (b) limit the channels through which irresponsible ones get them.
You know, there was a lot of controversy when the law started holding bars and hosts responsible for clearly serving an intoxicated guest who then got behind the wheel. But you know what? It has made a dent, and it further helped to reduce tolerance of drunk driving.
Nobody needs to go into your basement and search for your 30 round clip. But you aren't going to take it out on the public range. You better not be pulled over for a traffic stop with one on the back floor. You better not sell it to anybody. As long as it stays in your basement, nobody needs to come looking for it. The point is to reduce the availability of things like that, and nobody has to run around confiscating anything in order to accomplish that.
If responsible gun owners don't sell to, or buy for, criminals - and every responsible gun owner assures me that is true - then they don't have a problem.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)It's a choke point: regulate the shooting range, and the "responsible" will have to fall in line.
Clip size. Registered and ID'd firearms only. All guns scanned for owner and checked against ID at the door.
Whatever needs to be done. Amendment 2 does not say anything about business establishments. Of course, this would be a state issue, but adequate pressure could be placed by the federal government on law enforcement funds. Get your shooting ranges regulated, or they're gone.
no_hypocrisy
(46,135 posts)with conspiracy, felony murder, and aiding/abetting and it will be reduced to facilitation (providing the instrumentality for a crime to be committed by a third party).
That and lying on a weapons purchase.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Since she arranged the purchase over two years before the shooting, its doubtful she knew a murder was going to take place. Most likely she'll be charged with lying on the paperwork, and conspiracy to commit fraud, and perhaps providing a gun to a convicted felon. She might do two years of a six year sentence.
lynne
(3,118 posts)He beat his 92 year old grandmother to death with a hammer, for crying out loud! It doesn't get more sick and brutal than that. Yeah, he got and served 18 years but he needed to be kept behind bars for life for such an insane act.
Hope this girl gets convicted and serves a full sentence for her part in this crime but we need to keep the proven criminally insane behind bars instead of on the streets if we want to prevent them from killing again.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)This "insane" comment keeps popping up in posts, that someone would have to be insane to do something that horrible to such a defenseless, vulnerable person (elderly person, child). No, they don't have to be insane. These are the sorts of victims that violent criminals go after....the defenseless, the vulnerable. These types of criminals seem to me to generally be cowards. They do not go mano a mano with armed men their own size. No planned High Noon duel for these creeps. They might lose!
They depend on the element of surprise AND that their victims are vulnerable and defenseless, so that they are assured a victory.
Elderly women....unarmed firemen at a distance caught by surprise.....children. This is how they get their jollies. They focus on their supposed success, and avoid looking at the obvious aspect of the unfairness and cowardice of their attack, sidestepping the fact that it takes no skill or bravery or character to kill such a victim in such a way.
They are not insane.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)She bought them knowing that he couldn't, and handed them over to him.
Accomplice. Lock her ass up.
Dr_Scholl
(212 posts)n/t
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Charge her as an accomplice. If nothing else, her legal bills will leave her bankrupt. Sort of a warning to the next asshole who tries to do this.
sir pball
(4,743 posts)Max sentence. If NYS had the death penalty, the needle...but life w/o (this was Murder 1 after all) will suffice. I want the warning to be loud and crystal fucking clear.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Whatever it's called in New York, to be considered a capital offense there would have to be actual intent to commit murder. The person bought the gun two years ago, and clearly had no specific knowledge of what the new owner planned to do, but clearly knew that something unpleasant was going to happen -- and just didn't care.
sir pball
(4,743 posts)Looks like it's a blanket charge of Murder 2 - 15, 20, or 25 to life. Given the complete egregiousness of this woman's actions (I'm assuming she knew the guy was a psychopathic murderer), I'm fine with giving her 25ta. I have very little tolerance for this kind of bullshit.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)And if I'm her defense attorney, I'm going to hammer away at a) she bought them for her own use and later sold them to her neighbor (not a crime, BTW) and that b) she had no way of knowing that her neighbor was a threat to the community.
One juror doubts the prosecutor's story, she walks.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)is the #1 avenue on how criminals get guns.
Roughly 30% of all "illegal" firearms begin their life as a straw purchase of some sort. Yet for some reason straw purchases are rarely or only lightly punished.
Remember Columbine? The straw purchaser for some of the firearms used only spent 19 months in jail.
BeyondGeography
(39,376 posts)Historic NY
(37,451 posts)she swore she was buying them for herself and penned the documents so stating that.
she has blood on her hands and deserves punsihment!
liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)I wish all guns were registered and insured. If a person's gun is in an accident killing a kid, or is stolen and used in a crime, that person needs to pay for all damages incurred, and possibly face jail time. Anyone who owns a weapon created specifically to kill needs to take full responsibility for that weapon. I've never met a responsible gun owner - there are little to no consequences for gun owners who are careless with their weapons. Maybe if they were held fully accountable for that gun until it was registered in another name, they might be a bit more mindful. We do as much with cars, and with beer and cigarettes, yet drop the ball when it comes to guns. Doesn't make sense.