Study: You Are Not Actually Bruce Willis, It Turns Out!

[PeaceNikki]

Did you know that movies aren’t real, and that it is very hard to act like Bruce Willis and shoot bad guys and toss off snarky quips all casual-like and not get killed in the process?

As it turns out, shooting bad guys isn’t as easy as we have been led to believe! It is apparently even hard to shoot bad guys when you are the son of an NRA president and you are attempting to hit a moving vehicle while cruising comfortably down the George Washington Memorial Parkway. That is so weird, it is almost like when you arm regular people with guns and they get really mad, then they start trying to shoot everyone all the time. Huh.

Anyway, the last time we had a major shooting at a school (or was it the time before? There are so many, it’s hard to keep track) ABC news did a little experiment: they gave firearm training to six young, healthy people, some of whom already had hundreds of hours experience shooting guns, and then had someone burst into the room and pretend to start “executing” people by firing paint-filled plastic bullets at everyone. And guess what? In spite of A WHOLE SIX OR SEVEN HOURS OF HANDGUN TRAINING NOT ONE OF THEM “KILLED” THE FAKE SHOOTER. One of them got the gun out of the holster but then it got stuck in his shirt. Another one fired off a couple rounds but from a completely exposed position and was “shot” about six times. We know, we know, it is a total surprise that the average person does not magically turn into Sarah Conner when faced with a chaotic and potentially life-threatening situation.

Read more at http://wonkette.com/494403/study-you-are-not-actually-bruce-willis-it-turns-out#VzuCloaqVk5BZWXb.99

[Flashmann]

1. We know, we know, it is a total surprise

Only if your IQ hovers stratospherically in the sixties....

And for the slobbering gun nuts I know,personally,the presumption of an 60ish IQ is probably a tad generous.....

[oddoneout]

2. you do realize

that police officers were average people before being trained in using firearms...you do understand this right?

[PeaceNikki]

3. You still did not watch the video.

Staying trained for tactical situations like those we've seen is a full-time job. And that *IS* the job of LEO.

OOOOooooooo, I get it, you think we should ALL become cops!! Problem solved!! No bad guys!!

[oddoneout]

7. it is not a "full-time" job

it is simply something that you must do often. And i never said everyone should be cops.

[PeaceNikki]

8. OK, Rambo.

[cliffordu]

31. You, sir or madam, are a complete fucking idiot.

The next time you shoot some prick in a live fire adventure, come on back and give us a blow by blow.

[cliffordu]

49. Fucking crickets

Shoulda known.

[spanone]

51. wait!!!! i hear a song!!!!!

[cliffordu]

53. LOL.

Yep.

[oddoneout]

80. ok well what exactly

is your solution? Just to leave things the way they are and hope no crazies want to shoot up schools?

[cliffordu]

85. I dunno what the answer is but I know that

getting trained for killing people in a live fire situation is more than

"is simply something that you must do often."

Armchair Seals always claim it's easy -

You send teachers to the the range to shoot a couple hundred rounds a month and then Miss Ellis in third grade is going to be ready to give spelling tests and pop a cap in the ass of any motherfucker wandering around with an assault rifle during recess.

Teh stupid, it burns.

Marine combat brigades train relentlessly. Maybe that's the kind of training we need to give all of our teachers.

You know, when they're not grading math tests.

[oddoneout]

86. like I said

all teachers wouldn't be required to do it, but I believe if a teacher has a CHL, and is trained in firing the weapon often enough to be accurate, I think he or she should be able to carry it. But something I am not going to do is dismiss any idea that could benefit the children. The mere presence of someone who is trained with a firearm carrying one will be a deterrent to criminals or raging murderers. And I unlike most people here do not believe that a teacher that carries is just going to go off one day, and I truly believe had there been someone carrying in that elementary school, the deaths would have been lower. You are entitled to your opinions as I am mine. If you do not like my idea at least come up with an alternative to it.

[cliffordu]

87. Sorry - your whole line of..."reasoning"....

here is so completely wrong - nothing more than made-for-tv-movie thinking. It is so wrong, in fact, you've made it

impossible for me to snark or insult you to the level I am known for around here.

Well done. You have stunned me into silence.

[oddoneout]

92. what

exactly is your line of reasoning?

[zappaman]

4. What does that have to do with the OP? n/t

[PeaceNikki]

6. He thinks we should all become cops. No more bad guys = problem solved!!!

Or something...

[zappaman]

9. oh yes

that makes total sense.
can we make the kids super cops too?

[FiveGoodMen]

17. RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH!

[oddoneout]

81. you sir

are putting words in my mouth. You make it seem like ordinary people would never be able to be trained in the use of firearms, I merely pointed out that police officers who are trained in the use of firearms, where ordinary average people before they were trained.

[sibelian]

5. Soooooo

If we ALL get LEO training.... guns become GREAT THINGS? That's fine, then.

[Scootaloo]

21. It's amazing, the weird and irrational "ideas" people come up with

rather than accepting criticism of gun culture's sacred dogma - that You Are Superman

[oddoneout]

82. what

is your solution? Ban all guns? How do you remove them from criminals? Make it legally harder to own a gun? How does that stop criminals who do not acquire their guns legally? Too many people dismiss ideas, but have no idea or solution of their own.

[noiretextatique]

99. at least ban guns designed to kill a lot of people quickly

that's a start.

[zappaman]

102. Sorry, but the person you are responding to is no longer here.

I imagine he is somewhere training kindergarteners in the art of weaponry.

[noiretextatique]

103. excellent

[Scootaloo]

106. You know the "criminals don't own guns legally!" is a straw man, right?

Criminality is not genetic, nobody is legally a criminal until convicted of a crime. That includes people who simply do not get caught. They are as able to buy a gun as you.

Also, "shut up if you don't have a better idea!" is another fallacy - It's not my damn job to come up with magical pills to cure the world of its ills. I am still free to have an opinion on those ills, however.

[reteachinwi]

12. Police officers

are psychologically screened before certification.
For example:
http://act235testing.com/mmpi.htm

[reteachinwi]

47. This is apparently

a misuse of MMPI according to MedicalAdmin.

[Chorophyll]

20. They get more than six hours of training though, don't they.

In addition to a lot of other training.

[sarge43]

29. You do realize the US friendly fire casualty rate can be as high as 25% of the total casualties.

"In the "Persian Gulf War of 1991, there were 615 American casualties, 23 percent of the personnel (35 killed and 72 wounded) ... were attributable to friendly fire."
"Friendly Fire: The Inevitable Price," Parameters: The Journal of U.S. Army War College, 22, no 3 (Autumn, 1992)

Killed and wounded by average people before being trained in using all kinds of weapons and prepared to deal with hostile situations.

You also might to check out this cluster fuck, formally known as the invasion of Kiska in the Aleutian Islands, 15-16 Aug 1943. 83 American and Canadian soldiers were killed or wounded. There were no enemy forces on Kiska. 100% friendly fire casualty rate.

In short, having a gun doesn't mean you're going to win and walk away.

[Skraxx]

37. Why Do I Have The Feeling That Under Similar Circumstances, You Would Be Lying In A Puddle Of Your

own urine crying like a baby and begging for your life, while your gun lay limp in it's holster?

[Marr]

79. EXACTLY the response I'd expect.

"Not me. I'M Captain Above Average. I'M unusually cool under fire. I'M expertly trained, unlike those OTHER people."

lmao

[oddoneout]

83. when did i say that

oh yea you need to put words in mouth for your point to get through...lol

[datasuspect]

89. a lot of cops get shot

[Marrah_G]

94. Average people train with thier guns by shooting at a target

They don't train the way police officers are trained.

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. In addition to being anti-social fuckwits, the gun nuts are delusional assholes

[PeaceNikki]

11. And also uber-paranoid, it turns out!!

Study: Carrying a gun can make you more paranoid

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/thinking-tech/study-carrying-a-gun-can-make-you-more-paranoid/10875

[beevul]

13. Is this the one where they gave everyone loose fitting clothing and gloves? N/T

[PeaceNikki]

14. CCW permit holders don't protect innocent people. They kill them.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. Data?

You're describing about 9 million Americans there.

[PeaceNikki]

34. CCW holders have killed 499 people, including 14 LEO's and 23 mass murders.

http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

[AtheistCrusader]

36. 499 shootings out of 9 million people over a five year period.

That's uh.. shit, that's some indictment of CPL holders everywhere.

[rl6214]

96. I trust that report about as much as I would trust one from the NRA

Try again with a non biased source

[Pholus]

18. I think they made them all wear special shootin' unifurms.

[Egalitarian Thug]

15. It turns out that soldiers and cops are not movie heroes, either.

The mental illness created by constant exposure to fantasy, or is it the absence pf reality, has warped the people of America.

[abelenkpe]

43. totally off topic

Have you seen Django Unchained?

Based on past posts I'm thinking you might have an interesting opinion of that movie...

[Egalitarian Thug]

48. I disagree that it is OT, as the topic is dependent on the fallacy that trained people

can be depended on to perform in the circumstances outlined. The truth is that even with training, a significant number of soldiers fail to perform and among police the percentage is even greater.

We cling to a fantasy that has never been realty, and I think the evidence is pretty clear that we do so because hardly any Americans have ever been confronted with anything like this scenario, but because of out immersion in fantasy, believe that we would do fine if the occasion ever arises.

I'll probably see the film on the internet at some point, but the plot seems like another fantasy of what never happened and never could have been. I like entertainment, but I don't confuse it with reality. For example, I've met Bruce Willis a few times and, while he was perfectly charming, Bruce Willis is not Bruce Willis.

[Orrex]

16. A coworker insists that his friend with a CCL would have stopped the Aurora shooter

I'm sure that an amateur in a darkened, smoke-filled gunfire-filled theater would have easily taken down an armed and armored shooter.

What could possibly go wrong?

[AtheistCrusader]

38. Actually, he doesn't appear to have been armored at all.

The 'ballistic vest' is just ballistic nylon. It was a carrier, to hold extra mags. Not bulletproof at all.

That said, anyone who states 'I'da stopped him!' with any certainty at all, is a grandstanding asshole. The most anyone could possibly claim with any possible shred of benefit of the doubt is 'I would have tried'. Anything beyond that is bloviating.


Edit: Wiki now links to an article that claims 'ballistic leggings and helmet' and a throat and groin protector. No idea if any of that is bulletproof. We may have to wait till the evidence is unsealed. So far, only a receipt for a vest that is NOT bulletproof has been made public. The vest only carries whatever equipment you attach to it.

[Orrex]

46. Interesting. Thanks for the info!

I particularly agree with the part about the grandstanding asshole.

[lob1]

19. Oh yeah? What makes you think I'm not Bruce Willis?

This is your lucky day. I just looked in the mirror, and I'm not Bruce Willis.

[Shankapotomus]

22. We are over entertained nt

[MynameisBlarney]

23. I have the same hair

as Bruce Willis.
And I've been known to be fast on the draw with witty one-liners.
But my aim is shit.

[Dustlawyer]

27. I have the same hair too, but my aim is true. I just cannot make a witty one liner, damn it!

[MynameisBlarney]

84. Maybe we should team up

You'll be the heavy, and I'll be the plucky comic relief.

[Dustlawyer]

93. I am good at heavy! Lol. I would like to ask you to team up with me. I have convinced a few others

now to help in calling for Complete Campaign Finance Reform (CCFR) in every post where that would have prevented us from being screwed! Say it over and over! Get others to do the same and we will eventually get it on the radar. If there are enough of us we may get it done! If we pull back the curtain on the corruption, something good may happen! I am tired of bitching about the injustice of it all, I want to try to make a difference in the Bly way I know how at this point. I would put this up as a stand alone post (or whatever it is called), but so far I am technologically challenged and have not figured it out yet. Are you with me on this? Thanks.

[MynameisBlarney]

95. I am!

Let's do this!

[Dustlawyer]

98. Cool! We should have enough people soon to see CCFR demanded in EVERY POST on DU!

[MynameisBlarney]

100. Fuck yeah!

I'll drink to that!

[Dustlawyer]

105. Have a Patron, Cointreau Margarita on the rocks, w/salt

for me! I have to take medicine that I can't drink on, and now that's all I crave! Make it a double! Lol

[MynameisBlarney]

107. I would...but

I'm on a strict PBR budget right now.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Super convenient the 'shooter' knew exactly who in the room had a gun every time.

The 'student' was shot second, every time. The 'shooter' knows where to go, because the seating is assigned.

That's pretty rigged, 'yo.

(to say nothing of the bulky helmets and gloves for the simunitions that hamper draw and use of the gun. We do equally horrible things to trained officers when we do drills too, because we have unnatural edges over them due to the scenario. At least one officer 'dies' every time. We do it anyway, because you can only make it 'so real'.)

[PeaceNikki]

25. So.... none of the science about how people react in crisis holds true?

Gotcha.


Dream on, John McClane.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. I wouldn't know.

I participate in actual training, so I'm not your average CPL holder.

Again, we defeat trained officers, or at least some of them, regularly. It happens. And yes, there are significant physiological problems that occur in that sort of scenario. But the deck is heavily stacked due to the nature of the scenario. An honest journalistic piece would at least warn the viewer of that, and there is no purpose at all to the assigned seating, besides making it as hard as possible for the 'victim' to fight back.

It smacks of the Fox News piece on 'stoned drivers', where they used a CDL simulator for people who had no commercial truck experience or training at all, to stack the deck, as Fox News caters to the anti-drug conservative crowd.

[loli phabay]

58. yup a lot of the training is no win in order to prepare cops for what could happen

Ive died in a lot of training and it helps me think about even the easiest scenarios and i shoot twice a week. I am not a crack shot but at seven yards i can hit a two second turning q target from the holster center mass four times sometimes five but in a situation like this setup even i would fail more often than naught.

[riqster]

28. I have more hair, but

one-liners are much sharper than my aim.

Damn. I coulda been a contendah....

[BlueStreak]

30. Wow, that video gives me alot more appreciation for the skill of cops.

[AtheistCrusader]

32. Some cops are awesome shots. Shoot competitively.

They are not the majority, but the ones who do are scary good.

This scenario could have gone hilariously wrong for the 'shooter' if the location of the armed victim wasn't known to the shooter prior to entering the room, however.

[loli phabay]

60. yeah i know a couple of older guys who can outshoot semi autos with a bolt action

Also see a lot of civilians with frightening skills thats why i train to be fast and get lead downrange hopefully getting four or five rounds on before i get return fire.

[the antigun]

35. Bruce Willis

I guess even good guys with guns cant stop bad guys with guns. Way to go NRA.

[KittyWampus]

39. Can someone please do us all a favor & post that footage of that old man shooting in a video cafe?

He was aiming for the criminals and shooting in a room full of people. It was miraculous that no one was shot.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-man-71-shoots-alleged-robbers-internet-cafe/story?id=16800859#.UNzOFI5r4eU

[AtheistCrusader]

40. Two people were shot.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-man-71-shoots-alleged-robbers-internet-cafe/story?id=16800859#.UNzOVWbTmUk

[KittyWampus]

42. so much for "miraculous".

[AtheistCrusader]

44. Dunno. He hit the two people he was shooting at, at least.

[neverforget]

41. I've had strangers say that I look like Bruce Willis

I only wish that I had some of his money

[abelenkpe]

45. crazy video nt

[ManiacJoe]

50. How many more times do we need to discuss these foolish videos?

[PeaceNikki]

52. Sorry, I didn't realize that you were Rambo and that none of the theories in it hold true.

[Travis_0004]

54. I'll give you the cliff notes

The test was setup to make the people fail.

The students were in the same spot every time, so the trained swat officer knew exactly who would be pulling the gun and shooting at them.

Combine that with an unfamiliar weapon, and bulky gloves, as well as many other points, and they were setup to fail.

Most people that go on shooting sprees are not trained swat officers. Most CCW permit holders have training, and experience with their weapons. The CCW holder has the element of suprise, something that the people in this video didn't have.

Also, my dad is a cop, and I easily out shoot him. Why people believe that cops are always great shots, and CCW holders have no training I won't understand. My dad can pass the marksmanship exam, but he is average when it comes to shooting. I know a few cops that shoot the gun once or twice a year at the required range time. I try to shoot my gun once a month.

[PeaceNikki]

57. And I bet you still couldn't do SHIT in a mass shooting crisis.

In fact, you'd probably hurt people.

But I'll bet you think otherwise.

[Travis_0004]

67. But you automatically assume a cop can do better?

[PeaceNikki]

68. Nope. I never said that.

[Mother Of Four]

76. Nikki -

I don't think you're going to get them to understand what you're saying. Alot of the CCW defenders like to think they are special and a "little bit better" than others. The whole "Well you don't know me so you can't say" thing.

Fact is, my husband and his best friend (Also a cop) have taught emergency awareness classes. One of them I was the patsy sitting in the back row, my husband busts in the room and puts me in a choke hold screaming at everyone that he's going to break my neck. He then grabs my purse shoving me to the ground and runs out the door like a bat out of hell. (I'm of course fine, I know how to fall.)

The whole encounter takes about 120 seconds. The instructor tells everyone to calm down, that it was an exercise and then says "This is where it gets interesting. What did you all see?"

What was really amazing, is no two people had the right description. From the color of his skin, to his build the only physically descriptive thing they got right was his gender. Some thought he had a gun, others a knife. Yet he was bare handed. Most thought he was much larger than he really is. The reason for it all is people focus on the biggest threat of it- which was his arm around my neck. The opposite hand where some said the gun/knife would be, wasn't what they zeroed in on. It was him choking me.

After everyone has their say, he goes outside to get my husband and the shock is huge. He asks the class "How many of you would know it was him if you saw him on the street ten minutes later?" they wouldn't have had a clue. That's how the mind works, target the largest threat first and then fight or flight. All of our instincts kick in and we go into self preservation mode. Taking a good look at our lack of claws or fangs and add to that the fact we have no thick coat of hair or any form of armored hide, then it's no surprise the majority scatter or hide to stay alive.

Some background for people who don't know me.
My husband, 22 years army. Of that 22 years 17 of it was as an MP. 3 of those 17 years he was SRT (Army swat) While he was in the Army he had anti terrorist training and disguised weapon recognition. Can't recall what the actual class name was... it was for looking in all sorts of spots for weapons. A pen turned into a single shot gun, toe tappers etc.

He retired, then went to civvie BLET and became an LEO with one department for 7 years. Left there and now does contract work.

So... 17+7+2 years is a total 26 years of LEO experience. Guess what? He doesn't carry a gun when he's off duty. Carrying a gun doesn't impact your chances of avoiding injury in any meaningful way. What it DOES do is make some people over confident, others more paranoid. It increases the chance of escalating a confrontation into something physical because of what it does to the carriers mental state. People take more risks when CCW because they have a gun, they can handle it. etc etc etc until the cows come home.

My husband was talking to an elementary school once, at parents career day. One of the kids asked him to take out his gun, instead of just saying no he asked the kiddo if they thought it was because of how powerful it was. They said yes, it shoots people. My husband looked at all the kids in the class and said "You want to see the best weapon I have as a police officer?" they got all eager "Yes yes!" he reached in his shirt pocket and got out his pen then tapped the pen to his temple. Words, and taking the time to think before you say or write them. This is of course paraphrased, but you get my drift.

[PeaceNikki]

77. I'm glad I checked one last time before bed.

Thanks for this reply.

Very much.

[Mother Of Four]

78. ..

[PeaceNikki]

108. Your husband sounds like an amazing man. And I bet he's lucky to have you, too.

Seriously, thanks for that post, it gives me hope.

[ManiacJoe]

55. What theories in it?

When originally aired in 2009, the flaws were handily pointed out then.
When the same videos are reposted, the same flaws are again pointed out.

The video had the potential for showing some good stuff, but it fell far short of that goal.

[PeaceNikki]

56. The physical effects of crisis. You aren't Rambo.

Reduced field of vision
Impaired Thinking
Tunnel Vision, Temporary Blindness, and Auditory Exclusion ("tunnel hearing&quot

http://www.vpc.org/studies/uninfour.htm

[ManiacJoe]

62. Your source not withstanding, you have the right list of effects.

Training helps overcome them. However, you have now strayed from the discussion of the video.


All claims of Rambo are yours.

[PeaceNikki]

64. See here for my thoughts on training:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2082911

[ManiacJoe]

72. Your thoughts? Or those of the VPC?

Ignoring the source, those are reasonable criteria for judging how good your training is.

How much training have you had so that you can judge it?

[PeaceNikki]

73. Mine as well. They are logical and scientific.

I haven't had tactical training. I am not a cop and don't have a particular "He Man" complex that I need to feed.

I know plenty of cops. I know street cops and members of the SWAT team. It's not my job to judge their training or yours. But I think it's safe to say most CCW holders would shit their pants and/or kill bystanders if presented with a crisis the level of which we've seen lately.

Firearms are dangerous and most Americans are too stupid to properly use them, despite the 2nd Amendment.

[loli phabay]

74. going off on a tangent here but i think americans in vehicles are the same

You wouldnt believe the dumb stuff i see every day. It scares the crap out me when it snows as i know the idiots in tbeir suvs will be ploughing along at eighty thinking four wheel drive can handle it or the beamers doing fifty on windy country roads. Pretty much people all over the world do some dumb stuff and that means everyone including me.

[loli phabay]

66. 5raing helps a lot but i feel muscle memory is paramount

I by second nature never carry anything in my gun hand and draw my weapon four or five times as soon as i holster it just to reinforce the memory. I also always carry on the exact same position every day regardless of what im doing so when shit goes down i automatically have the weapon in my hand without even thinking about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. I ave been in real shoot outs

And can testify to quite a bit of it, Rambo.

[loli phabay]

61. so you have returned fire and know your limits when stressed

Im sure you will regale me with some nonsense about being under fire is the same as having to return fire and fight through. As an earlier poster stated these tests are set up for people to fail thats the point of it. I can state catagorically from over twenty years of experience in that set up if i was one of the other people there unknown to be carrying by the suspect then theres good odds my rounds would be going in his direction and i might win the fight.

[PeaceNikki]

63. Real-Life Differences.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/uninthree.htm

Experts on the use of handguns for self-defense reel off a number of real-life factors for which range shooting does not prepare the handgun owner:

The Physical Environment. One obvious difference is that shooting ranges optimize lighting and view. The handgun owner, however, has no control over the environmental conditions under which he may perceive the need to use his gun. The experience of police officers in real shootouts shows that "light conditions are often too poor to allow using the sights. Officers normally practice and qualify on well-lit ranges that allow full use of sights. Conditions on the street are rarely as favorable as range conditions."134 Poor lighting and confusing situations in real life increase the risk that the gun owner will make an error in judgment and harm an innocent person, or be harmed himself because he cannot use his handgun effectively. The range of potential environmental differences from a shooting range is enormous, from a dark bedroom to a rainy street corner or a bitter cold evening when the gun owner is wearing bulky gloves.

Physiological Stress. Mortal fear does not accompany shooting at paper targets. But in a life or death situation "your heart thuds in your chest and your breathing accelerates and you have to react rapidly."135 This fear seriously affects one's shooting ability. "The real world of combat means a highly stressful event in which a very small percentage of bullets fired even strike the target."136 Even well-trained police officers who are taught to expect such stress reactions miss their targets many more times than they hit them.

Assailant Movements. A handgun owner may be quite proud of the hits he has scored in the "kill zone" on stationary paper targets. But, as many police officers have learned, assailants don't stand still waiting to be shot. "What a revelation. I was never so terrified in my whole life. They never told me in the academy that the targets were going to jump and move all over the place. There wasn't one 3' by 2' target to shoot at like on the police range."137

Unexpected Assailant Reaction. More often than not, in the movies and on television, people who are "shot" simply fall down and stay down. End of fight. In real life, the opposite is often true, especially if the assailant is on alcohol or drugs. They either don't fall down, or they get back up and keep coming. "We can presume that in half of the police-involved shootings, the felon will not lay down and be cooperative instantly. In fact, many shooting reports included information to suggest that the felon showed no indication that he had been hit....Hitting such a moving target with a handgun, under extreme stress, is not easy."138

Ambiguous Situations. There is no doubt about whether to shoot the targets at a shooting range—they are there as surrogate bad guys. But many real-life situations are ambiguous: is the "assailant" really a threat? Is the threat deadly enough to justify the use of lethal force? From his own experience, seasoned New York City police officer and author Jim Cirillo notes: "Many times, situations looked like armed robberies but turned out to be innocent. At such times, a man with no compassion might shoot when he shouldn't, or he might not consider bystanders during his moment of danger."139

Disarmament Moves. Is the civilian gun owner prepared when the assailant attempts to disarm him, or simply shoots anyway? Is he aware that some criminals learn specific procedures to do just that? Probably not. But being suddenly disarmed or outgunned is a threat in the real world. "There are many instances where the suspect has drawn a weapon and killed an officer after the officer pointed his weapon and issued the proper challenge. The suspect just plain beat the officer....The Aryan Brotherhood prison gang, along with the Hell's Angels outlaw motorcycle gang, have developed a technique to disarm an officer from a distance of 21 feet. It works in conjunction with an officer's natural lag time."


You may be an exception. You may just think you're the exception, but the reality is most people with guns in crisis will cause more harm.

[loli phabay]

69. no i know the differences and have experienced them thats why i dont train for the range

I have no interest in nice groupings i train to get my weapon out and on target as fast and smooth as i can as im going to be behind the other persons action. I train to get the first two rounds off as fast as possible in the hope that anyone shooting at me is slower or gets phased by suddenly seeing mh weapon appear.

[PeaceNikki]

70. ok, we have established that you are likely an exception or think you are. Again...

most people with guns in crisis will cause more harm.

[loli phabay]

71. not agreeing or disagreeing with you just talking personal experience

The issue is you never know how its going to end they may get a lucky shot. You may get a stoppage or a bad first round its all about playing the odds and being armed and knowing your firearm at least gives you better odds than nothing in my opinion.

[zappaman]

90. "I ave been in real shoot outs And can testify to quite a bit of it, Rambo."

In that case, please tell us when you were in these shootouts, how many shootouts there were and some details of each, please.
I would think it would be quite the harrowing experience and I'm sure you remember each of them easily.

[rl6214]

97. Crickets

[zappaman]

101. You might want to ask the same question

Since I am probably on her "iggy" list for daring to question her knowledge of all things...

[jmg257]

65. I knew!...John McClane, Sarah OConnor, and Rambo were wussies.

Hmmm...makes ya wonder how good the bad guys are!?

[JackRiddler]

75. I prefer to call this the Eastwood Fallacy.

The good guy (or Eastwood) draws faster and shoots straighter!

Since Eastwood scenes tend to make it look more plausible than Willis's. Also, tend to be more explicitly political about the Need For A Man With A Gun.

But, you know, same thing.

[datasuspect]

88. there was a study in the mid 90s

which said that more people can remember what bruce willis looks like than they could their own father.

[sir pball]

91. Well duh, that's why I like force-on-force training

Paintball is fun as hell and I'd do it recreationally regardless, but it's also a crucial component of the skillset required for personal defense with a firearm. I do wish more CCW courses would include it...might be a good lure actually, a day of paintballing!

I sometimes wish we could get our hands on Simunition..

[Care Acutely]

104. Amazin!

[Taverner]

109. Try telling that to the Rambo Masturbators on this board

Not sure if they're GOP trolls, or just certifiable

[PeaceNikki]

110. I am. I have. It's an exercise in futility. Check this out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=196167

[Taverner]

111. If you ask me, I think a bunch of angry Republicans have signed up lately

If you notice NONE of them donate

ALL of them tell us that we should be ashamed to call ourselves Democrats (this is the kind of BS the GOP uses to keep folks in line)

AND - at most they might have 5K posts

[PeaceNikki]

112. I just don't get the vicious horrible bullshit she is spewing. It's just vile.

And that juries let it stand.

Though, juries are stacked with trolls, too, these days.

gah.

[Taverner]

113. Pretty much. This forum....needs an enema!

Usually trolls get tired.

The truly passionate and empathetic don't.

We will always win. Always.

I used to think Gandhi's quote was just baseless optimism, but it's true.

The tyrants ALWAYS go away.

Ottoman Empire, Rome, Byzantine, Hitler, Stalin - all have passed