Adam Lanza was crazy. Nancy Lanza was crazy.

[_Liann_]

Adam Lanza planned his mass murder before he set out to do it.

The final report is yet to be assembled and published, but certain facts are not likely to change or have changed meaning.

(1) Adam Lanza attempted to buy a weapon earlier that week but was stymied by the waiting period.

(2) The best witnesses are dead, but reports of Lanza appearing at the school one day earlier were published without confirmed sources. This would be reconnoitering, a planning move.

(3) Lanza stole his mother's weaponry and assassinated her as she slept.

(4) He destroyed two computers and removed his hard drive and made attempts to smash it beyond recovery, which was a conscious attempt to cover up history and activities.

(5) He stole his mothers car and drove to the killing grounds.

(6) He shot his way past the security barriers.

(7) His weapon had a clip in the gun loaded with 30 rounds, plus taped to the gun for quick and easy reloading was three more 30-round clips. He expended over 100 rounds, shooting three to eleven bullets into each victim.

(8) He had in his possession his 24 year-old brothers ID.

The activity pattern profile for Adam Lanza was consistent with Anti-Social Personality Disorder as defined by the standard handbook, DSM-IV.


Facts pertaining to Nancy Lanza

(1) Nancy Lanza taught her son Adam Lanza to shoot the weapons she owned.

(2) Nancy Lanza was a survivalist whom believed in arming herself against a forthcoming apocalypse of some kind.

(3) Nancy Lanza purchased the weapons and magazine clips for human enemies she expected to be a threat after society was fallen. She bought human-hunting weapons with the intent that they would be used in future mass murder by herself.

(4) Nancy Lanza imbued her son with her paranoia, which was inescapable given his other medical conditions being functionally housebound. Nancy Lanza was the first victim killed with the same relentless efficiency as the others, with four bullets to the head.

Nancy Lanza activity pattern profile is consistent with paranoid schizophrenic.


Despite so-called tough gun laws in Connecticut, neither of these two people, who both had (it seems after the fact) serious mental illnesses, were effectively stopped from obtaining rapid fire weapons and high capacity ammo clips.

Neither one met any of the criteria for removing the weapons from the house by due process law enforcement.

Adam Lanza could have passed the federal background check two weeks ago, and might even qualify for one of the rent-a-cop jobs at the Sandy Hook school newly proposed by the NRA-GOP.

[Daemonaquila]

1. Oh for f**k's sake.

Quit the armchair psychiatry. Just because you have a DSM-IV and a host of wild guesses over a few facts doesn't make your theories valid. By the way, not every survival nut is paranoid schizophrenic, which by your "analysis" would be the conclusion.

[_Liann_]

5. Survivalists depend on reasoning

Somebody likes roughing it, stalking the wild aspargus and living off the land (lightly), Nothing wrong with that.

Somebody stockpiling weapons and ammo because they believe that civilization is about to all are CRAZY.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. That was not a stockpile and is not would a TEOTAWAKI prepper would have

Also there has been no other indications other than talking about it that she was doing substantive prepping.

[_Liann_]

19. Perhaps, perhaps not.

None of us have been inside the house, and it might be months before the final report is released.

We get reporters talking to people who have tidbits. We can't always be sure what to trust.

The kid carried on his person 150 rounds of ammo in 6 clips and three high-throughput guns. That's is a stockpile right there. He left the shotgun in the car, and the guns left at home vary in reports from two to six more, none of those high throughput semi-automatics.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. No perhaps about it

The police reported 7 firearms
Bushmaster in .223
Sig Sauer in 9mm
Glock in 10mm
Lee-Enfield (303 caliber)
Henry rifle (unknown caliber)
1-2 shotguns, unknown gauges.

He had three semi automatic weapons, 1 rifle and 2 pistols. Also reported is some sort of vest. Most likely some sort of LBE. There is not such thing as a high throughput semi automatic. Its more spin that discredits your pitch.

I think you are seriously overworking the kind of report that will come out.

[_Liann_]

55. Your opinions are decreasing in content value. N/T

[ProgressiveProfessor]

79. That is what the facts do to your spin and screeds

[Mojorabbit]

101. That is not a huge stockpile by any means. nt

[HooptieWagon]

103. The Henry rifle is probably the lever-action .44...

repeating rifle introduced by by the Union during the course of the civil war. It is a serious collector piece, I think Rachel Maddow owns one... at least there's pictures of her shooting one. The design was copied by Winchester after the war for civilian use.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

105. That assumes it is an original

Could also be one of the Italian reproductions. Cops have been a bit stingy with data. We still don't know what kind of shotguns and I have heard both one and two of them.

[HooptieWagon]

110. Yes, there are reproductions popular with Civil War reinacters.

I think this is likely an original. First, because she could afford one. Second, she "showed it off" to several people... not an uncommon occurance for someone who has just bought a rare and valuble item....whether gun, car, art, etc.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

113. Is that what she showed off?

Other media reports made me think it was the AR. Impossible to know for sure. The media has seriously screwed the pooch on this one.

An expensive original or even reproduction is not what a psychotic, nihilist, end of the world, paranoid survivalist would have bought.

Ahhh, more grist for the mill

[HooptieWagon]

128. She showed it to her landscaper at least. Possibly others.

He said she brought it to the door to show him. It's possible (speculation on my part) that she knew he was a fellow gun enthusiest either from prior conversation or from seeing him at a local range.
I agree about it not being a "survivalist" weapon. I think rim-fire cartridges were just being introduced about the time of the civil war. While rim-fire cartridges are still being made in quantity for small calibers, they are more difficult to buy for larger sizes. Reloading isn't possible for rim-fire. I think the Henry reproductions are made to shoot center-fire cartridges. I don't know if it's possible to convert an original Henry to shoot center-fire cartridges, but even if so, it would probably greatly diminish it's value as a collector piece.

[REP]

126. The Lee-Enfield is a less valuable gun, but still a collector piece, too

Assuming it is one of the older ones, since it's a .303.

[HooptieWagon]

133. Yes, I think they were invented at the end of the 1800s.

And were in wide military use by the time of WW1. It is also a collector piece, but because newer and produced in far greater numbers than the Henry, it is worth less.
I suspect the Enfield was still being used recently by tribal militias in Afgahnistan and Libya, being passed down through the generations.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

136. I have a number of L-Es, most of which were given to me

I have a sample of each one that went into general service. None of them are stellar museum pieces, but they are all in very good shape and function. Have an extra that is just a shooter. 303 ammo is hard to get.

[11 Bravo]

91. Got it. AFTER you post your manifesto, declaring in no uncertain terms the way it was ...

you lay a little "Perhaps, perhaps not" on us. Seems mildly inconsistent, but what do I know?

[_Liann_]

111. Boo Hoo for you that you need 100% certainty. N/T

[11 Bravo]

132. From you, I neither need (nor desire) anything. I'm merely noting that you are but one of ...

a host of individuals, on TV and on the web, who have no fucking idea what they are talking about, but are not about to let that slow them down. By all means, proceed.

[obamanut2012]

84. She wasn't a survivalist and she didn't have a stockpile

That information was bogus.

[REP]

129. At least two of her guns are historical collector pieces

The Henry and the Lee-Enfield.

[tama]

90. cRAzY LIKE USA nt

[Loudly]

6. Any public policy suggestions jump out from all that?

The only one I can identify is that guns and ammunition should not be available to the general public.

People can be mentally ill, but there is no excuse for making them lethal.

[_Liann_]

21. Mt purpose of writing was to solicit policy suggestions

Mental illness is one of the only two grounds we actually have at present to remove weapons from "Bad Men" as the NRA-GOP calls them.

It's worth exploring the types of examples of mental health gun violence to learn how to use that tool to make ourselves safer.

[gvstn]

2. Where does this come from?

I've followed this case/story and haven't seen this mentioned. I'm just curious as to where you have read it.

"Nancy Lanza activity pattern profile is consistent with paranoid schizophrenic."

I originally went with the gun-nut, survivalist idea of his mother but upon further stories she seems more sympathetic. More a 50 year old woman trying to deal with a fully grown 20 year old man that did not act in a rational manner. The laws didn't give her any way to try to control him (short of accusing him of abuse) even though she knew he needed help. I don't know how that makes her a schizophrenic?

[_Liann_]

18. Could you try googling the term paranoid schizophrenic

.. so we are all reading on the same page.

Every person is different. Every person's life plays out differently. Medical conditions range from mild to severe.

Nancy Lanza had largely withdrawn. She was unemployed and not interested in employment. She was reclusive increasingly, spending more and more time confining herself to her backyard puttering. Her social interactions were minimal, and had been shrinking. Frankly she wasn't an interesting person that others would seek out for company.

She adopted survivalism based on a fearful prospect of the future, specifically some kind of end of civilization. She began hoarding weapons and ammunition. She brought her son along to burn off ammunition. Her choice of weapons and magazines indicates a willingness to slaughter humans who were threatening her sanctuary in her paranoid imagining. She specifically bought these high-throughput weapons as "protection" beyond any realistic threat. She armed her son in the end with three high output guns loaded with 150 bullets in clips taped to the barrel. This kind of firepower is assembled by a different imagination than one planning protection to repel one burglar or two. She didn't even keep her weapons in her bedroom where they were protection from a home invader.

Her son was functionally housebound. There was no escape from her paradigm. His room was next to her weapons cache which he used and knew well. He spent much of his time playing shoot-em-up games, next to the weapons stash. Her seeming oblivion of what he was becoming is part of her own out-of-touch life.

We know the end of this story. We don't know a lot and won't be getting a lot more, so we have to make due with what we have. Both Lanzas were crazy, both exhibited different profiles. What most resembles Nancy Lanza's paranoia, delusions and noticed withdrawal? You write your opinion -- you've seen mine.

Trying to recognize what activated these people is better than throwing up the hands and saying life is one big bunch of mysteries. It may lead to plans to head off the next tragedy by understanding the last, or not.

[green for victory]

46. "Frankly she wasn't an interesting person that others would seek out for company"--source? nt

[HooptieWagon]

102. A fabrication by the OP.

Describing her as a "survivalist" appears to have been a gross exaggeration. An armchair diagnosis as a paranoid schitzophrenic is just OP pulling shit from their ass and flinging it against the wall.
There are certainly legitimate questions that can be asked about the mother's actions, or lack thereof. There is no evidence that she suffered from any mental illness.

[_Liann_]

112. SHE described herself as survivalist so said "friends" interviewed by press. N/T

Maybe she was by her definitions instead of yours? She was also crazy, so don't expect her to be in touch with survivalists to know what's in the rulebook.

[HooptieWagon]

117. No she didn't. You're making that up.

An Aunt who lived a long distance away described her as wanting to be "prepared". The media spun that into being a "survivalist".
There is no evidence she hated the government, or was planning to resist it. Her house wasn't fortified. She wasn't growing her own food. It hasn't been established she stock-piled supplies.

[DallasNE]

48. The Real Story Here

Is that Nancy Lanza had money yet there was no effective program she could enroll her out-of-control son into. That's right, no treatment is available that deals with the behaviors. Yes, there are feeble attempts to manage things with powerful drugs that create issues of their own but nothing that directly addresses the behaviors. This should jump out on any report that looks into the mental health aspects of what we can do to prevent massacres like this. It really boils down to who pays for it. Insurance won't cover it plus the lifetime caps would quickly get hit if they did. By default we are paying for it several innocent lives at a time -- sometimes only 6 or 7 years old.

[Catherina]

92. +10000 Thank you n/t

[OmahaBlueDog]

123. OK, but the other part of the story is that Nancy Lanza did something grossly irresponsible

If someone lives with you, in your home, who is on anti-psychotic medication, you shouldn't be keeping firearms at the home.

[gvstn]

150. Thank you for putting it succinctly. /nt

[pnwmom]

3. Connecticut's gun laws aren't very important when it's surrounded by states

with weaker laws. We need strong Federal laws.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. From what has been published, they were all hers and registered under Conn law

Given the mix, some appear to be from the divorce. Without details like purchase date that is hard to know, but a couple of them are not the kind of rifles a survivalist or women would purchase (Henry and Lee-Enfield)

[_Liann_]

23. Could have sentimental value?

These might be family heirlooms. Maybe her dad owned these, or something just like them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Perhaps, but again, its not a prepper or survivalist collection. Not even close

[pnwmom]

148. If the CT law allowed her to buy powerful, high-capacity rifles, then it's not very strict after all

[CreekDog]

4. Dr. Frist's first name was Liann?

[DapperDon]

7. Are you victim blaming?

I mean, ultimately it is the mom's fault? Is that what you're saying?

[_Liann_]

27. The Mom armed the son who carried out the killings

As far as I am concerned, mom was a bit whacky, but son turned out to be surprisingly insane.

Mom knew him best. Brother and dad are keeping low profile and shut up.

What you see is what you get.

Mom bought the guns, stored them in the basement next to son's room where he played realistic shoot-em-up games all day long, taught him to shoot and imbued him with here doomsday beliefs that society is crashing any day now.

I'd say mom is not the innocent victim. That he shot her 4 times while she slept shows a lot of hate he had generated at her. How much she provoked that we will never know.

There are a lot of places in the causal chain where had she not done her part those kids would be having a merry christmas.

[LeftishBrit]

51. Your last paragraphs worry me a lot

'I'd say mom is not the innocent victim. That he shot her 4 times while she slept shows a lot of hate he had generated at her. How much she provoked that we will never know.'

There is a lot we will never know, but unless Nancy Lanza was threatening to kill her son - and we have no evidence for that - she did not 'provoke' his actions toward her. This comment reminds me of the idea that women who are beaten by their partners must have done something to deserve it.

[_Liann_]

61. Adam Lanza wa he world's biggest spoiled brat

There isn't anything good that people want us to know about Adam Lanza.

All I ever heard is he was rude and self-involved.

He had no interest in socializing, and his mother catered to his anti-social course.

His games were anti-social. No internet friends have come forth.

I take the stories that mom taught him to shoot for building his self-esteem as cover stories she told people, not her actual story if she believed in impending apocalypse survivalism..

Until here, nobody reported that Nancy Lanza was living on $300,000K alimony per year, so I didn't have that. She certainly had the money to put Adam Lanza in good circumstances where he could do better.

I'm still sticking with my paranoia theory on her explaining to people various future plans but keeping her personal gloom private and not really discussing things that she was deliberating. I don't know how much she bought into her survivalist fantasy, maybe every other day the sun came out. Maybe she had a supply of mother's little helpers that keep her more grounded, or might have been part of the problem. Toxicology is not released to the public yet for either Lanza.

I'm not the only one suspicious of conflicting reports, on the one hand she was intending to hospitalize him because she thought that she had a fatal disease, on the other hand teaching him to shoot, and then again they were all whisking away to Washington State where he would go to a school for people like him. If she told every one of her acquaintances different and conflicting stories I prefer to go back to the hard evidence.

Son was not a loving son -- he killed mom with four bullets while she slept. Sometimes hate is earned, not gratuitous. Maybe the son heard all the conflicting reports too and was disturbed by her plans that he choose to believe were not in his interest.

We can all agree the son was insane, a particular type of insanity, not just nebulous "coocoo". The type most likely to fit the hard evidence is a type that gives many signals over time, although not everybody knows what they mean or is alerted by them.

Adam Lanza was at least armed by his mother's cache, and trained to shoot by him, and sole supplier of his violent games. That itself is pretty reckless for an anti-social child living in the basement next to the weapons locker. What other dynamics went on will wait for brother to open up eventually about life in that house.

[RedCappedBandit]

8. This is literally the worst case of internet psychology I have ever read

just lol

Whatever point you were trying to make was completely negated by your absurd conjecture.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. +1

[Catherina]

93. +1 n/t

[HooptieWagon]

104. +1000 nt

[pinboy3niner]

130. + 2,000 nt

[_Liann_]

114. Worst case of critcism of an internet post, ever, x1000.

The point was made.

Adam Lanza was crazy, Nancy Lanza was crazy. Point made.

Nobody is twisting your arm to agree. Feel free to make your own points.

[HooptieWagon]

138. Your point wasn't made, it's being laughed at.

All that is known is that Adam Lanza had Asperger's, as stated by the older brother. And Adam had a worsening mental state, of unknown reasons at this time, that ultimately caused him to commit mass-murder. There is no indication that Nancy Lanza had any mental or psychological issues whatsoever...that is a complete fabrication of yours.

[Catherina]

141. There's been a point made alright but not the one you think n/t

[Flatulo]

9. For Nancy Lanza to keep firearms in a home where such a troubled child lived was

foolhardy beyond comprehension. Had she not been murdered by her son, I would support her being imprisoned for good long time.

If no other good comes out of this, I hope parents will take a good long look at their children before deciding to acquire deadly weapons. Failing that, they need to keep them in a sturdy safe with a combination lock that the child can't open.

If a child is being treated for mental problems, the psychiatrist or psychologist should be able to advise law enforcement to remove weapons from the home for safekeeping. We do this now in Massachusetts whenever a restraining order is granted.

[BobTheSubgenius]

10. Any and all other aspects of this thread aside,

I totally agree with your opinions on the mother. In fact, I haven't spoken to one reasonable person that disagrees with your position.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. Do we really know what she knew at this point?

Its not at all clear how troubled he was. It is also common for parents to be in denial. Then there are the recent reports that he snapped because he thought/found out that she was going to have him committed. Hard to really know...and we may never know.

The aunt (ex sister in law) who provided some of the more salacious details did say the mother was very safety conscious with her guns. Not sure if that is true either...the results would indicate otherwise.

I agree with removing of firearms from homes in cases like this. Its not that I don't trust the parents, its that the kids often know more than the parents realize. I learned after our daughters left the house that they knew where the copy of the safe combination was kept...

[Flatulo]

78. I think denial may have played a big role. What parent wants to acknowledge that their

child may be dangerous to others? Even the parents of bullies are often shocked to find out that their precious is terrorizing others. The ability of a loving parent to perform mental gymnastics when it comes to their child is something to behold.

If she had even an inkling that her son was a danger to others, she should have had those guns removed and kept at the local police station. They are equipped to store firearms for extended periods.

[triplepoint]

11. I STILL Want to See the Inside-the-Lanza House Photos

It is a somewhat morbid curiosity of mine to see what the mother and son had stocked away in their "Prepper house." It may also help in understanding the mother a bit more....and maybe the killer himself. There appears to be no surviving document from the killer that would help explain his insane motive(s) for murdering his mother and those at the Sandy Hook Elementary School. Maybe we'll get a property inventory after the new year. Maybe the mother kept a diary. She was just about to commit her son to a mental institution, went away for a few days, came back, and was subsequently murdered in her sleep by her murderous and quite insane son. It is right out of a Steven King novel...horrendous.

I'm sure there is a tabloid interest in inside-the-house photos as well. I know...so what.....I'll understand if you don't agree with me.... I really will.

[BobTheSubgenius]

13. Above and beyond the curiousity factor, I really think

a peek into their lives might be instructive. Maybe even to people who might one day be in a position to be proactive in a similar developing situation.

[_Liann_]

63. Me too. I think it might offer insights. N/T

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. The investigation should be terminated, there is no justification for it to continue legally

We know all pertinent facts from that day. Unless law enforcement has reason to believe there was additional participants, its over.

I would love to know what is on the hard drives, web pages, cell phones, in the house, etc. Geeks thrive on data. I understand and share your desire, but I expect this to be closed out due to resource consumption if nothing else. I don't expect the Newtown police to produce much more of anything.

[_Liann_]

30. Newtown police will produce a comprehensive report.

This is a national case involving the presidency and the Biden Commission and proposed laws.

There will be a full report. Often the ISP has the emails on it's server, and even if Lanza deleted those, copies exist on back tapes stored for the prior week at least, if not 3 months in the post 9/11 era.

I have hopes for the hard drive recovery, the holy grail of forensics in this case.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. Are they even capable of that? Its a podunk department

and they do not have the resources of the Presidency or the planned Biden Commission. There is no compelling legal reason to and spending significant resources on it at this point could be considered a breach of fiduciary duty.

I would like to know every detail, and everything they have will be put into storage, but I am not expecting anything of quality.

[MADem]

57. I thought the state police and FBI had lead on this crime. Not the Newtown PD.

They didn't even do the "spokesperson" thing at the outset--it was a state trooper who did those media availabilities.

[_Liann_]

64. SOMEBODY is doing a report -- there's the high-profile BIDEN COMMISSION

There's just too much sensation for no report to be issued.

It will be thorough. It will be thick. It will not have gruesome pictures. It might show the weapons locker, the son's room, the mom's room, and the distances.

If he broke into the locker, would mom wake?

If he smashed his computer first, would mom wake? It's a really big house. Did he cut into the locker? Did he use a key? Certain facts construct a timeline for the fateful day. Right now I see him killing mom, smashing computers and attacking hard drive, then driving away. If mom couldn't hear and wake from commotion, other sequences are possible that make a lot of noise.

It changes his psychology that he could kill first and then cover his track with destroying the computer evidence while his mom is lying upstairs. It helps understand how much hate he had for her personally, as opposed to no personal feelings at all, just another video game character.

[MADem]

77. I don't know if this is true, but I read (somewhere) that he shot ma in the face four times.

I should think a person would be holding a lot of animus to shoot someone in the face like that, over and over.

Time will tell, but my point is that I don't think the little Newtown PD has the lead on this matter.

[_Liann_]

115. The autopsy on Nancy Lanca will be in the final report. NT

[HiPointDem]

24. their 'fortress' house? where did that come from? does this look like a fortress to you?

there's not even a fence.

[_Liann_]

32. It looks far too expensive for an unemployed lady to own. N/T

What is that, about 16 rooms?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. She was getting massive amounts of alimony from the divorce and also the house

It is not a survivalist or prepper home by any stretch or spin of the imagination.

[hughee99]

39. She got the house in the divorce and about $300k a year in alimony.

If she didn't have house payments, I think $289,800 would be more than enough to live on without a job.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/nancy-lanza-peter-lanza-divorce_n_2316461.html

[HiPointDem]

66. her ex-husband is a VP at GE Financial. She got the house in the divorce settlement & about

half a mill a year.

also, she was a stockbroker herself.

I'm surprised you didn't know that with your special esp.

[Catherina]

94. Unbelievable. You really need to get out more. n/t

[_Liann_]

116. Oh, right, McMansions are free in Connecticut -- I forgot. NT

[HooptieWagon]

135. They are, in a divorce settlement.

And the mother got a generous alimony, so she wouldn't have to work and could stay home and take care of son.
Your spin is the biggest case of epic fail I've seen on DU in quite some time. Congratulations.

[Catherina]

144. Epic, epic fail

There's no way there's even an ounce of sincerity in your posts.

What are you going to throw in next? A Black Gangbang? http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2063924

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. You are asserting facts not in evidence, just in the media

Adam Lanza planned his mass murder before he set out to do it.

Maybe

The final report is yet to be assembled and published, but certain facts are not likely to change or have changed meaning.

More likely no comprehensive final report will be issued. There is no reason at this point to pursue the investigation further. There are no doubts as to the facts of the day in question. New facts that contradict prior ones have been the hallmark of this event in the media.

Adam Lanza planned his mass murder before he set out to do it.

Maybe. Other media reports are that he snapped because he found out his mother was going to have him committed. Not sure that is any more true than other so called facts.

The final report is yet to be assembled and published, but certain facts are not likely to change or have changed meaning.

You have more confidence in the media than appears to be warranted in this event

(1) Adam Lanza attempted to buy a weapon earlier that week but was stymied by the waiting period.

Maybe. That has been discussed, but last I read there was no video or other definitive evidence other than a clerk's recollection.

(2) The best witnesses are dead, but reports of Lanza appearing at the school one day earlier were published without confirmed sources. This would be reconnoitering, a planning move.

Maybe, could also have been the trigger not recon.

(3) Lanza stole his mother's weaponry and assassinated her as she slept.

How he got them are TBD. The aunt who provided much of the more oft quoted salacious data also said the mother was very careful with her weapons and always locked them up

(4) He destroyed two computers and removed his hard drive and made attempts to smash it beyond recovery, which was a conscious attempt to cover up history and activities.

If it was planned, he would have erased them with free software that would have made them irrecoverable. He had the knowledge and background to do that. Breaking them as he did would point to a lack of planning.

(5) He stole his mothers car and drove to the killing grounds.

He did not have a car of his own at the time

(6) He shot his way past the security barriers.

That was the only way he could get in. That is not evidence one way or the other of a mental condition

(7) His weapon had a clip in the gun loaded with 30 rounds, plus taped to the gun for quick and easy reloading was three more 30-round clips. He expended over 100 rounds, shooting three to eleven bullets into each victim.

He used the standard magazine for that rifle. That is not evidence one way or the other of a mental condition.

(8) He had in his possession his 24 year-old brothers ID.

It also could have been for bars since he was less than 21

The activity pattern profile for Adam Lanza was consistent with Anti-Social Personality Disorder as defined by the standard handbook, DSM-IV.

Are you qualified to make that diagnosis? That is not something I have heard from other sources.

Facts pertaining to Nancy Lanza

Not so much

(1) Nancy Lanza taught her son Adam Lanza to shoot the weapons she owned.

That is not evidence one way or the other of a mental condition

(2) Nancy Lanza was a survivalist whom believed in arming herself against a forthcoming apocalypse of some kind.

Probably not true. Her weapon collection were not that of a survivalist. Neither were her lifestyle and other actions indicative of that either. She may have talked about it.

(3) Nancy Lanza purchased the weapons and magazine clips for human enemies she expected to be a threat after society was fallen. She bought human-hunting weapons with the intent that they would be used in future mass murder by herself.

Again, look at what she owned. An AR-15, the most popular sporting rifle in the US for years, and probably the most prolific rifle in the US today. The magazines were the standard size for sporting shooting. She had two other rifles in obscure calibers, not those of a survivalist. She had 2 handguns, one in a common caliber (9mm) the other in 10mm, a caliber that is out of favor and somewhat rare. She had a shotgun of unknown type. That is not a collection aimed at much of anything, let alone human hunting. Some of those firearms are also not what a woman would have bought, survivalist or not. Some have suggested that some of the weapons were left over from the divorce. Her ex-husband was also a shooter. Its seems a better explanation for the diverse firearms.

(4) Nancy Lanza imbued her son with her paranoia, which was inescapable given his other medical conditions being functionally housebound. Nancy Lanza was the first victim killed with the same relentless efficiency as the others, with four bullets to the head.

Nothing to support that. One must also inquire about the father, who was also a sport shooter.

Nancy Lanza activity pattern profile is consistent with paranoid schizophrenic.

Absolutely nothing to support that conclusion.

Despite so-called tough gun laws in Connecticut, neither of these two people, who both had (it seems after the fact) serious mental illnesses, were effectively stopped from obtaining rapid fire weapons and high capacity ammo clips.

The son never purchased any weapons. There are some indicators that the son had Aspergers maybe more. Nothing formal has emerged at this time. There is nothing to indicate that the mother had any of the problems you attribute to her. The gun laws in Conn are some of the toughest in the US. No indication that any of them were broken.

Neither one met any of the criteria for removing the weapons from the house by due process law enforcement.

One of the few clearly true statements you have made


The reality is that you are treating mostly unsupported reports in the media as perfect and ignoring others that would not support your position. Your additional spin on them is about the worst I have seen on the Internet. While this was a tragedy should result in changes, spinning at your level when the facts are not even close to public is specious and uncalled for. Your level of hyperbole could cause some to write off those calling for change as liars and crackpots. It is that bad IMNSHO

Additionally posts like yours have those involved with the mental health community concerned and outraged. Off the cuff diagnosis with no basis in facts scares the hell out of them and should.

[_Liann_]

35. The outrage of the psych community is the least of my interests.

The psych community fails way too often.

There is on average one mass murder every two weeks with 6 or more people dead.

They are not doing their job well enough. I don't need to worry abut their feathers ruffled. They SUCK at their jobs.

Apparently you don't know what the word "intent" means in the law. It means what you did was what you wanted to do at that moment. You opened the door because you intended to open the door, and you went through the full set of body motions which opens doors and the door opened. You don't need a month of planning to open a door, but you intend to do it and then you do it, just like you planned when you formed intent to open it.

Intent is required to commit a crime, or some crimes. Accidentally opening a door might be a violation but you didn't intend to do it so you are not held to the highest degree of culpability.

Adam Lanza formulated thought. He planned his actions. He carried them out with intent. He was deliberate and goal oriented. What he did was no accident -- it was intentional.

On the one hand you are dismissive of "reports" and gossip, but rely heavily on a reputed commitment to an institution, which I give no credence to without further corroboration.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

40. Intent also has a timeline

Clearly there was intent. The question is what caused it and when. Your claim of recon would indicate that you think it was preplanned for at least a day. Other things indicate otherwise. I have no doubt it was intentional and planned, the question is when did he start and why.

I cited those reports, giving them no more credence than others. They contradict the ones you cited and are more recent. I don't believe much of anything other than the obvious facts of who shot who at this point.

Your animus toward the mental health community, which includes those who need treatment is noted.

I notice that you are still spinning like mad, here and in other threads. Hyperbole like yours is going to hurt the effort to make things better.

[_Liann_]

50. Why are you involved in this thread?

"I notice that you are still spinning like mad, here and in other threads. Hyperbole like yours is going to hurt the effort to make things better."

So who's the armchair psychologist now, eh doc?

I am not going to temper my anger that the psychology professions are failing America.

I don't believe you have the superior plan to "make things better", but now would be a good time to show it, or any plan to make things better even if it's not superior.

My "hyperbole" may be exactly what is needed right now to make things better by and by.

I haven't been properly induced to play tit-for-tat time consumption verbiage games with you. Perhaps you can say something interesting on your behalf.

I put out what I wanted to put out. Various people have reacted in various ways.

People will continue to see the thread title, and maybe read the top few posts if they feel inclined. That's why people write comments and essays as they feel moved to do so.

If you don't have more interesting thoughts, spare me your uninspired ones, thanks.

[green for victory]

59. "...psychology professions are failing America"

"I am not going to temper my anger that the psychology professions are failing America. "--_Liann_

Why not throw in the entire psychology profession, after you've demonized the shooter (evil, he is) and then his mother. You'll come up with more, no doubt.

And you would rather do this than do as the US Government National Institutes of Health recommends on this matter, and that is to EXAMINE it.

"these cases need urgent examination jointly by jurists and psychiatrists in all countries"

That is....I don't think contemptible is a strong enough word. In case you missed it here's a link to a US GOV paper that warns of drugs and violence:

NIH.GOV: Antidepressants and Violence-Problems at the Interface of Medicine & Law
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

Both clinical trial and pharmacovigilance data point to possible links between these drugs and violent behaviours. The legal cases outlined returned a variety of verdicts that may in part have stemmed from different judicial processes. Many jurisdictions appear not to have considered the possibility that a prescription drug may induce violence.

...In these trials, hostile events are found to excess in both adults and children on paroxetine compared with placebo, and are found across indications, and both on therapy and during withdrawal.

============

Does a Keyboard Shrink beat an android?

[_Liann_]

65. I hadn't heard that the toxicology report was released. Got a link? N/T

[easttexaslefty]

83. No kidding.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

80. To dispute your lies and half truths

You are clueless making proclamations about things you know little about

[_Liann_]

118. Guess my weight and height ye who know me so well. NT

[ProgressiveProfessor]

119. Your words, spin, and defensiveness speaks volumes

and they yell clueless with an agenda.

[Fire Walk With Me]

68. Yet you quote the DSM as a basis for your opinion.

[_Liann_]

120. The DSM is ONE PLACE of many where you can read the definition.

Americans are taught to read. That's what schools used to be for before the NRA-GOP turned them into slaughterhouses.

You have your American freedom to read the free press equally to your American freedom to bear war weapons.

You can read the definitions and say, Yes this symptom matches what I read or NO this symptom does not match anything I read.

That's called LIBERTY and FREEDOM. I used mine, and nobody is stopping you from using yours.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

14. We got another live one, folks.

About _Liann_

Statistics and Information
Account status: Active Member since: Sun Aug 19, 2012, 07:44 PM
Number of posts: 323
Number of posts, last 90 days: 10
Favorite forum: General Discussion, 10 posts in the last 90 days

[davidpdx]

49. Yeah it does look suspicious

I have to wonder how many people have "dormant" accounts where enough posts are made to look creditable. Ten posts hidden is pretty significant within the last 90 days.

[_Liann_]

52. I was more effective elsewhere to get my favorites elected. Preaching to the choir does do it.

So i dropped back and the same anti-social people are still here. Greaaaat.

[tblue]

15. You could be right.

The apple didn't fall too far from the tree this time. She's armed to the teeth with a very unstable young man in the home. Doesn't make a lick of sense. I wonder, was the ammo hers too?

[HiPointDem]

25. 'armed to the teeth'? where do you get that?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. It wasn't much of an inventory

It is clearly not the the collection of a survivalist or doomsday prepper. It looks to some to be mostly divorce residue. I have NEVER seen a woman be interested in a Lee-Endfield or Henry rifle, and they are certainly not what a prepper would buy.

At 18 he could buy rifle ammo and magazines, though there is nothing to indicate one way or the other if he did that.

Armed to the teeth? Not even close.

[DRoseDARs]

28. Sen. Bill Frist, is that you?

Doing a medical diagnosis based off of viewing a home video of Terri Schiavo for an hour was pretty bad, but doing a psychological profile of the Lanzas based off of ... media reports? Really?

[hughee99]

43. I was thinking the same thing...

I wonder how the OP would diagnose this...

[uppityperson]

31. When I was in nursing school learning about varied diseases, I fit many of the symptoms of many of

them.

You sound like you've been been reading bits out of a medical/psych book and are trying to fit the Lanza's into what you read. You are not doing a very good job and I'd suggest leaving this to those who actually know more about these people other than what has been in the media.

It may be fun trying things like this, but accuracy is very lacking.

[romana]

33. Armchair diagnosis

Drawing these conclusions about the mental state of the individuals involved, based largely on media reports, is irresponsible. If you are a mental health care professional, it is unethical, as well. Please stop.

[_Liann_]

37. You think you own the event personally? How much will you sell me 5% of your share?

[Milliesmom]

38. Good God!

I taught my three sons to shoot and how to safely handle a gun, they took lessons on driving also from me, then they went to school to learn how to use a gun and driving school after I taught them what a mother would expect of them. That does not make me crazy and they did not go and murder anyone. By the way it has not been proven that Adam did tried to buy any guns a, no proof, no video either.

[LisaL]

42. He didn't need to buy any guns. His mother had plenty already.

The story about him buying the gun is false-it was a case of mistaken identity.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. I heard it was dropped then heard that it was back...

Typical media SNAFU on this event

[_Liann_]

53. How many mass murderers did you train?

If you have no common ground, why bother mentioning some disparate facts. Lots of people teach their kids to shoot -- it's the mass murder families that get an extra looking at.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

122. I have trained many more than just my daughters

No mass murderers their either.

We have little detail at this point about the family. You have picked some of the more salacious things in the media and then proceeded to provide mental heath diagnosis based upon them. So using your same approach:

- How many mentally ill people do you have a patients?
- How much time did you have with the shooter or his family members?
- What are your qualifications to make any of the mental health statements you have made in the last few days?

[jonthebru]

41. Who gives a shit. They both are dead, we are not.

At this point it is important to keep reminding our country men and women that the corporate lobby for the firearm industry does not wish us well and will work very hard and spend lots of money to keep those types of weapons available to whom ever can figure out how to purchase or steal the weapons.

Consequently we as a nation collective will sooner or later witness the same frickin' thing happening again and again until we grow the cahones' to fix the situation.

[donnasgirl]

47. Please explain

How do you fix the problem? There are many hurdles that you will have to jump before you even try and ban any guns.

[_Liann_]

54. More details, please

There are mass murders every two weeks in America. We witness this twice a month.

Now what will we be doing once we get magic cahones to fix the situation?

[donnasgirl]

60. liann

Stop and ask yourself how many drunk drivers are there in our country and how many states have laws against them.
Stop and ask yourself about laws tha have been passed against speeding and do people still do it.
I do not in no way condone these types of shootings, and if people think gun owners condone it i would suggest you take a step back and reconsider that one.
Everybody in my circle of family and friends are sick over this but what we ask is,please take a step back and think with a clear head.
I posted above there are many hurdles the politicians have to over come in order to even start considering any kind of regulations that go against the constitution,remember the supreme court rulings in the past.

[_Liann_]

67. We need to discuss the Constitution.

The current laws which are under no threat by the Supreme Court, allow a person to be disarmed for life if they have a mental health hospitalization or a judge's order declaring them mentally incompetent.

It is one of the things up for discussion if certain strengthening of this is appropriate, and what the details of that might look like.

The president of the NRA has son who is not allowed to bear arms for life by a judges orders after conviction for attempted murder shooting into another car at the driver in a road rage event.

Judge's orders can fully dissolve a so-called constitutional right, and the Supreme Court is fine with that and the NRA is not contesting that. Sonny was scheduled for release on ten year prison sentence last February.

It seems that the 2nd Amendment is not so absolute as even the NRA accepts and the Supreme Court is just fine with that, so maybe you should worry a little less about the sticky 2nd Amendment and Supreme Court obstacles. We might just go ahead and learn something about certain mental illness which are high priority to disarm the person pro-actively with court orders before the big shootout happens.

[donnasgirl]

72. I will use the shooting in binghamton ny

The father of the shooter in binghamton ny called and asked in 2 separate occasions and nothing was done,in my humble opinion the law dropped the ball and those people would have not died if our da's and judges and police departments would have listened.Mr Obama keeps saying he wants existing laws enforced and he is correct,if the law would have listened that shooting would have not occured,every one of these shootings would have been stopped if the laws would have allowed it.

[FloridaJudy]

56. I read some report by a "forensic psychologist" on a newsite

...and he concluded that "Adam Lanza hated his mother".

And I'm going "No shit, Sherlock! How did you come to that brilliant conclusion?" Unfortunately, that's about the only thing that's probably indisputable at this point. It's pretty hard to psychoanalize the dead, though lots of folks with access to a DSM-IV try it.

Unless someone finds his diary, or an autopsy reveals some lesion in his brain, we'll likely never know for sure what was wrong with him.

But what is certain is that the vast majority of the mentally ill will never commit a violent crime. Demonizing them is cruel and pointless.

[_Liann_]

70. Generally severe sociopaths don't love or hate. They don't even feel those emotions.

The vast amount of crimes is committed by abnormal psychology.

By definition crime is anti-social and abnormal. Not all of it qualifies for an "Insanity Defense" which requires a troubled person to be incapable of knowing right from wrong.

Anti-social sociopaths however know evil and enjoy being it. They have a mental illness. but they are not legally insane.

The question for us here, now, is, are they mentally ill in the way that can get a judge to write a court order declaring them mentally unfit to ever bear arms again for life?

Do current laws cover enough circumstances? Do the laws need strengthening? What kinds of details do we need to even answer those questions? Do we need new laws particularly for this factor?

[TorchTheWitch]

58. hahaha!

First, Nancy Lanza was not a survivalist. That was tabloid rubbish that's been debunked by one of her friends. She was not obsessed with guns, they were a hobby that she got interested in after her divorce.

And you think SHE was a paranoid schizophrenic? hahahaha! Go back to the psychiatry books. Paranoid schizophrenics noticeably can't function in society. They have evil voices in their heads that they respond to. They're perpetually argumentative and violent. Unmedicated they look crazy and act crazy. Mrs. Lanza wasn't anywhere in the same universe as a paranoid schizophrenic. They're exactly the kind of people that think it's totally rational to shoot dozens of innocent people which is why so many mass murderers turn out to be paranoid schizophrenics.

Yours has got to be the stupidest post I've ever seen.

[NashvilleLefty]

62. Their mental state had nothing to do with, they shouldn't

have had access to such dangerous weapons, period.

Yes, Lanza was crazy or else he wouldn't have done this heinous act. We all know that NOW>

But he shouldn't have had access to the weapons to carry out his crazy dream -

PERIOD.

[B Calm]

69. Your last sentence nailed it!

That should give everyone pause.

[HipChick]

71. You nailed it...

I'm tired of folks dancing around the issue..K&R!

[renie408]

73. 1) Repeatedly using 'crazy' in your title is just itching for a fight.

2) You are being pretty Frist-ian throughout this post. I would agree that Nancy Lanza appeared to be paranoid. But I am not sure you can tack on the 'schizophrenic' part.

I have to say that I do not understand the people who seem to think there is no evidence that Adam Lanza was mentally ill. He shot 20 kindergartners 3 to 11 times with a high powered rifle. What more evidence do you need? Does that seem NORMAL?? Cause it really doesn't by any standard of the word that I am familiar with.

[_Liann_]

121. Being afraid to fight for gun control law enforcement means the crazies win. NT

Being afraid to fight for gun control law enforcement means the crazies win.

[Denninmi]

74. Yo, Newsflash for All of You, from a guy with an actual psychiatric diagnosis, Bipolar

From an actual M.D., not from Internet armchair speculation.

Call Lanza crazy. Declare him sane. Say he was a monster. Say whatever you want.

If you enjoy speculating about Lanza, or who killed Kennedy, or whether Angelina Jolie is secretly married to a space alien because you saw it on the cover of the World Weekly News tabloid at the checkout lane, if you enjoy it, go for it, it's a hobby.

I don't give a rat's ass about Lanza or his mental illness or lack thereof. How is any of that my fault, or my problem? What does it have to do with my day to day life? Nothing!

I find these mass shootings horrific and unacceptable. It seems to me we need a 2 pronged approach - FEWER guns, especially these auto/semi-auto types, AND a BETTER system of mental health care, one that preserves the rights and dignity of patients while safeguarding the rest of us, because I and those I love are just as much part of the rest of us of society who needs assurance they can live in peace, safety, and freedom as much as anyone without a mental health diagnosis. I personally have no desire to get gunned down some day by a sociopath with an ax to grind just because I was in the process of shopping at Macy's or whatever and in the wrong place-wrong time.

I shouldn't even HAVE to keep justifying myself, but I'll reiterate again - I, like 99 plus percent of all people with mental health issues, am completely harmless to others, within "normal" boundaries common to every human. Treated and medicated properly, which consists of taking 300 mgs of a mood stabilizer drug daily, seeing a psychiatrist for a half hour visit every 3 months, and going to therapy as needed, which more or less amounts to spilling your guts and talking it over with a trusted friend, albeit one with a psychology degree who charges $80 an hour, I am not even a danger to myself. I never really was - if I had truly wanted to off myself, I just would have done it and saved myself the grief that goes with psychiatric treatment.

A major part of that grief is stigmatization. That is bad enough as is. No one in my position needs it to be made worse through guilt by association, painting with a broad brush, and certainly not through the suggestion that we need a modern day Mental Health Nuremburg Law which creates an official state Enemies List of the mentally ill.

I have done nothing wrong, my entire rap sheet consists of one speeding ticket in 1994, and I am beyond offended by the suggestion of the NRA and its propagandists that I need to be put on some kind of registry, my name listed along with sex offenders, pedophiles, convicted felons. How would YOU like it if someone suggested your name belongs in that database for whatever reason?

To suggest that everyone with any kind of mental health diagnosis be scapegoated and blacklisted for the crimes of a few individuals is about as asinine as saying that The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 should be cast aside and all African Americans be registered in some database because a few Black Panthers killed some cops back in the day.

I'm bipolar. I'm not a second class citizen. I have full civil rights, the same as everyone. I enjoy having civil rights. I would like to keep them. And, I think my personal civil rights are just a little more basic and fundamental than some yahoo's property rights to own a private arsenal. Guns are, legally, only property. I'm a person.

[renie408]

96. You don't have to keep justifying yourself.

Not even Wayne Lapierre said that every person with a mental health diagnosis should be considered violent. But if someone has been in counseling and has been considered by a professional to have violent tendencies, it is in the best interests of society to maybe keep them from owning a gun.

I understand why you are taking this personally, but I really don't hear people saying that EVERYONE with a mental health diagnosis is suspect. Your decision to reveal details about your situation including your meds and diagnosis is just that-- your decision. I think most people here understand that you are not a danger and that 99% of those in mental health treatment are similarly harmless.

I think that at some point a person's offended-ness becomes their responsibility. I could easily become defensive because Lanza is homeschooled and so is my daughter or because he is about the same age as my son or because I was socially awkward as a child.

Or because I was diagnosed very recently with bipolar II. But I don't because I do not relate to Adam or Nancy Lanza. I feel as many do that we need better diagnostic tools (boy, would this diagnosis have come in handy about 20 years ago. I wish I had been getting treatment all along) and better, less stigmatized access to mental health care. AND we need to keep guns out of the hands of people who are a danger to themselves and society.

[Denninmi]

99. Well, I kind of feel that I do, I shouldn't have to, but I do because of ignorance I see by a few.

As far as the NRA demand, it was my interpretation that they want a database of every single person who takes any kind of psychiatric medicine.

Taking it personally? You betcha. I shouldn't take it personally or be defensive when someone suggests my name belongs in a database such as the FBI's National Criminal Information System or similar (here in Michigan the state database is LIEN, Law Enforcement Information Network)? That equates me with felons, sex offenders, pedophiles. Here in Michigan, anyone adjudicated to be a legally incapacitated individual is entered into LIEN. If my name were registered in LIEN, that would equate me with people involuntarily committed.

Aside from being extremely offensive to me, I worry about the ramifications of this. Right now, my psychiatric medical records are protected by HIPPA, actually to a higher degree of confidentiality than "ordinary" medical records. This database would be accessible to law enforcement at a minimum, who knows who else? So, I get another traffic stop some day, a gung ho cop sees I'm listed as a psych patient and roughs me up or worse? A prospective employer runs a background check and refuses to hire me under some other pretense? A bank denies me credit? An airline refuses to sell me a ticket?

[renie408]

124. Honestly, I never thought that far ahead.

I was just relieved to finally have a diagnosis.

[_Liann_]

125. I basically said what he asks for.

Lots of people with non-violent mental disturbances are stigmatized by broad brush blanket lumping together with violent monsters. I separated out two categories known to furnish violent monsters: SOCIOPATHS and PARANOIDS.

It did not stigmatize everybody as collectively guilt of mass murder, but these two groups furnish a lot of mass murderers.

People need to be able to distinguish US from THEM, by spending an hour reading the symptoms list of real people with the problems and we can all be reading on the same page when we use high media attention examples like the Lanzas.

I don't think most people have problems with the idea that killing 20 kids point blank range is prima facie (plain on the face of it) evidence of mental illness, but specifically what kind, and what are the signs so we can see it earlier before it erupts in a killing frenzy?

Adam Lanza was crazy. What kind of crazy? I say specifically sociopathic crazy, which has a specific list of things that are matched up to the physical facts of the massacre.

Nancy Lanza was crazy. Not everybody agrees, but the evidence on the table suggests paranoid schizophrenia. However she was on medications for an illness that she thought was fatal, and the toxicology tests of her blood has not been released. Neither has her private medical records, which we will never see. Some guesswork is required. Some drugs can induce temporary insanity which looks and results in identical behaviors as natural mental incapacity.

She was at the least reckless in her disregard of public safety as the ultimate facts demonstrate without quibble.

Using her as a teaching moment to learn something about the symptoms list of paranoid schizophrenics is worthwhile. Being able to distinguish the socially dangerous from the innocuous is a valuable skill that ought to be taught in schools, but at least people can learn it now, here, by studying the teachable moment, and maybe heading off the next time.

[VOX]

75. The psychopathology is immaterial in this case. Deadly weapons are the salient issue...

Not saying that mental illness shouldn't be better addressed in this country -- it should be. But there are multiple variants of numerous strains of behavioral pathology that could cause sustained expressions of profound rage, any of which might result in tragedies like Aurora or Sandy Hook. Society would be best served if the focus is kept squarely on the serious public health issue of guns and gun culture.

Mark Morford's recent piece in the Washington Post, "Death to All Guns," states it best (sorry, no link):
<Snip>"...Perhaps you think Sandy Hook, Aurora, Colorado, Virginia Tech, et al could be better prevented by improved treatment for the mentally ill? Maybe. But a culture of gun fanaticism feeds insanity. Put the other way: insanity loves guns. They are interlinked and inextricable..." <Snip>

[_Liann_]

131. Sociopathy is 4%, 1-in-25, one in every 13 houses closest to you.

Assuming that there are two adults living per house, 13 houses is 26 adults, and modern psychiatry says that statistically one of those is a sociopath who could duplicate Adam Lanza.

That's a big problem, especially since sociopaths are often very clever liars (one of the common symptoms to look for is chronic lying) and conceal their evil nature from discovery by the people around them.

Ted Bundy was a sociopath, ultimately assigned responsible for 30 known murder victims, but he claimed that he killed hundreds. He was usually employed, popular, well-liked by those who knew kim, gregarious (not a hermit like Adam Lanza), had a steady girlfriend for a long time while he murdered random women, and was a republican fundraiser volunteer. His socopathy was well hidden, and he used alternate means to kill other than guns.

Dennis Radar, the BTK killer was a family man who worked a steady job, raised his kids, donated generously to the family church and was cub scout leader. For decades, from 1974 through 1991 he went out and killed victims without a gun.

Both were sociopaths. There's somebody living nearby who has their same psychology. If you want to live, learn the symptoms. This is a teachable moment WHY you want to know the symptoms to recognize them before they trap you.

When you are reading the symptom list, compare the symptoms to a corporate raider who stole pension funds, lied in his campaign ads, and dodged taxes. See if you can guess who fill the bill of most symptoms matched whose name is M___ R_____?

[Marengo]

149. Do you continuously observe your neighbors for signs of sociopathy?

If so, what action would you take should you discover a sociopath?

[davidpdx]

76. I think everyone needs to be careful about jumping to conclusions

I have some knowledge of mental illness, but that hardly makes me fit to diagnose someone. The situation is upsetting for everyone. As others have said, playing arm chair psychiatrist won't get you far.

It's barely been 10 days since this has happened. The media has been invasive in the live's of the victims, the perpetrator and his family.

The truth will come out eventually and until then we need to give it a rest.

[_Liann_]

134. We need to give this an understanding, not any rest.

It's very NRA-GOP of you to say we should put this aside and move on to other things.

There are teachable moments. This is one of those.

We need to understand that one of the FEW TOOLS that we have which does not need to pass a logjammed congress to act with, is the mental health order to disarm dangerous people pro-actively before they slaughter a bunch of kids.

The LAWS ALREADY EXIST. We can use them today. Isn't that what the NRA-GOP keeps saying, that we need to enforce the laws that we already have?

People need to understand that the mental health ban on owning firearms is SUPREME COURT APPROVED.

Even the NRA accepts it as law of the nation: for example: David A. Keene is president of the NRA. His son David Michael Keene spent ten years in prison for attempted murder with a gun. Son Keene is also under a court order for life barring him from ever possessing any firearm for the rest of his days. The NRA does not dispute that any judge in the country can bar any person in the country on felon grounds or mental incapacity grounds from ever bearing arms for lie.

We wouldn't even be discussing this if those 20 kids were not killed by a madman with a gun to shine light on how the mental illness factors can ban guns from dangerous people even if congress stays stalemated.

We need a lot more talk. Not less.

[Michigan Alum]

81. From what I've read about them, I think they both had psychiatric disorders but not the one's

you mentioned. For the mother, Paranoid Schizophrenia (unless she was under medication for it and was more stabilized) would be very observable. These people often hear voices, have bizarre delusions, and have very disorganized thought/ verbal processes. They also tend to be more anti-social - which from all reports she was not.

The son would be more likely to have paranoid schizophrenia or paranoid personality disorder than the mother. It sounds like he had very little contact with others so we don't have enough info to really speculate. Of course, one cannot properly diagnose someone without having a full history and also interviewing and observing someone, preferably over a period of time. With anti- social personality disorder, the person is confident, cunning, often charming and they manipulate people usually for financial or some other gain. You must have been diagnosed with conduct disorder before the age of 18, which is normally shown by extreme disregard for rules, they often show cruelty towards animals and people. He was not known to show any of these things.

This kid was shy, insecure and withdrawn and afraid of his own shadow - this is not conduct disorder.

There are many other psychiatric disorders that can explain his cruel, violent, and non- remorseful behavior than anti- social disorder. He may have become psychotic, which can happen with many of the disorders.

[stevenleser]

82. You contradict yourself thoroughly. You claim "Crazy" then detail methodical planning over many days

Having a diagnosed mental illness, even one in the DSM does not connote "crazy". There are many mental disorders that are neuroses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroses , not psychoses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoses .

AND, even a mental illness diagnosis of an illness where psychotic episodes are possible or even prevalent does not mean the person is in a state of psychosis frequently, or even at all given proper medication.

All that is beyond the fact that any mental health professional will tell you that attempted remote diagnosis of someone one hasn't met is a bad practice.

This isnt about the mental state of Adam or Nancy Lanza. This is about a gun saturated society and gun obsessed culture.

[_Liann_]

137. Very NRA-GOP of you to derail the focus elsewhere.

The mental health bar to lifetime gun possession is exactly what we need to focus on because congress is logjammed.

As the NRA-GOP keeps saying we need to ENFORCE EXISTING GUN CONTROL LAWS.

Any judge in the country can ban gun possession case by case, bad man by bad man, using the laws that we already have. No new laws need to try to slide past filibusters in the senate or the NRA-GOP majority in the house. We just need the legal profession and the psychiatric profession to work together on law enforcement for the public good.

Adam Lanza is dead. Nancy Lanza is dead. Any attempt to doctor the living by remote is unethical, but understanding human behaviors requires us to use the tools that we possess and the facts that are available. Dead people don't have the same rights as the living, and dead people who built the causal chain that led to mass slaughter of children are not going to be treated as gently as those who could have broken any link in the causal chain and those kids would instead be having a merry Christmas.

Understanding the "craziness" of each Lanza requires a different template. Even knowing where to look for the template is not known as widely as it could be for effective LAW ENFORCEMENT.

We can't enforce the laws that we have if we don't even know who fits those laws. We need to learn the DANGEROUS DEADLY KILLER types of mental illness which is not related in any way with most harmless or merely annoying types of mental disturbances. Smearing all mental illness with the crimes of the few is avoided by wider understanding what the killers look like, their symptom list.

[stevenleser]

147. There is nothing to derail. You contradicted yourself and ruined any point you were trying to make.

Either Adam was insane, or he methodically planned the murder of 28 people over a series of several days. A plan which included the destruction of multiple kinds of evidence before the crime and reconnaisance of the place where the crime was to take place.

You cannot have it both ways. If you have ever met or seen someone who is in the grip of a psychotic break, you would realize that a 'crazy' person would not have been able to pull off what Adam Lanza did.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. Oh FFS. I miss unrec.

[HappyMe]

89. I agree.

A serious pile of crap.

[Catherina]

95. Sam here. n/t

[obamanut2012]

86. Garbage in, garbage out

That is all I have to say.

[bahrbearian]

88. I'm going to use this against my gun hording friends, " you've got a serious mental illness"

that'll make their heads explode, but maybe they will give it some thought.

[_Liann_]

139. If you are a judge you can revoke their guns. NT

[happy xenusmas eve]

97. How did he get his bro's ID?

Where is his body and has it been tested for drugs of any sort? How come his brother isn't in intense questioning mode by the CIA?

YOU'RE crazy if you believe the Official Story!

[HooptieWagon]

107. Unknown how he got ID.

He was reportedly estranged from brother and father. Brother told police he hadn't seen or communicated with Adam in 2 years.
Brother was extensively questioned by law enforcement... I fail to see why he should be questioned by CIA, who have no connection and no jurisdiction.
Body is probably still at coronor's office. I imagine toxicology samples were taken. Test results usually take several weeks, unless compelling reason to rush. There is no compelling reason to rush.
There is no "official story" yet. All there has been is media reports, most of which are greatly exaggerated if not outright false. When the official report is released, there is no reason at this time to suspect it will be a coverup or CT. Get a grip.

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. "I'm not a psychiatrist, I just play one on DU." n/t

[HooptieWagon]

106. Better not quit your day job.

Your career as an armchair psychiatrist is an epic fail.

[TwilightGardener]

108. Not nearly enough info to assess the kid's mental state,

let alone his mom's.

[_Liann_]

140. The massacre of children is prima facie. NT

[TwilightGardener]

142. Certainly he was severely disturbed. But no one knows his

psych diagnoses, meds, precipitating events, etc. Nancy Lanza was well-liked and there's no evidence of mental illness. Not sure that fear of economic collapse and gun ownership count as disorders just yet.

[cecilfirefox]

109. I do not believe there is enough evidence to support the assertion that Nancy was a 'prepper'-

If she WAS, well... Then I have a pretty harsh opinion of her. But facts > opinions.

[_Liann_]

143. Hey, maybe she used a different rulebook on who qualifes as an end-of-worlder.

There's an end result.

There was a causal chain to produce that end result. We don't always get all the facts that we like or would prefer, but end results like this require testing all explanations to find the most meaningful and helpful to avoid repeats.

Without numerous links in the causal chain created by Nancy Lanza those kids would be home this Christmas. Break any link in that chain and no massacre.

[Zax2me]

145. Yea, but she didn't murder innocent children.

Indirectly?
Indirectly I killed someone because I sold my car to an alcoholic who killed four people in a DUI accident.

[Toronto]

146. Good grief...

If we must speculate...If Adam Lanza had autism, which is NOT a mental illness, but a birth defect the same as being born without limbs, he would have the antisocial tendencies that have been reported. Depending on his level of functioning, he could be either cognitvely or emotionally incapable of empathy or both. He would not be insane, but if he was emotionally incapable of empathy, he would be incapable of emotionally identifying with the children he killed. If he had autism, it was not treated properly. Perhaps his mother and father were in denial for too long. IF he was incapable of empathy, he should never have been permitted to be anywhere near guns. He would also be subject to influence from first person shooter games. Lots of ifs. However I believe the school indicated that he suffered from some form of autism. At any rate, if this horrendous outcome was the result of untreated autism, both of his parents and the system are to blame. There have been treatments available for autism for some time. These treatments may be out of reach for people without money, but that was not the case for this family. Instead it appears Adam was home schooled, probably because his mother or both parents would not accept that there was anything wrong with Adam, although he could neither function in the school system or in society. For the same reason, he was denied access to a school specializing in training autistic children to cope in society.

[BlueCaliDem]

151. All assault rifles, of all types, and all magazine clips should be banned

in this country.

There is NO need for these weapons, and when widely available, they will be used, as we see time and time and time again.

The deaths of twenty innocent 6-year-olds should be enough for "compassionate" Americans to decide enough is enough, and to push our government to BAN ALL ASSAULT firearms from handguns to rifles, but it appears on this thread alone, Americans LUVS THEIR GUNS, and if twenty or so children are massacred in our schools as the price for our freedumbs, well, so be it.

I'm fucking done with these gun-apologists. Twist and turn it any fucking way you want, but you'll never convince me there shouldn't be common sense gun control.

[boonergang]

152. I believe I chatted with Adam Lanza on the Suicide Forum.

I am glad I found this group. This case has been troubling me substantially. The day before the shootings I logged into Suicide Forum late at night. I know the precise day because my friend and neighbor's funeral was the day of the Sandy Hook shooting. I often greeted new members and visitors there as I had begun to recover and was trying to help other people in crisis. I remember a very hostile young man with an odd mishmosh screenname. At first he said , he was distraught and going to kill himself. This is common on the forum, so I tried to probe what was troubling him. He said that his mother was away, but when she got back she was going to institutionalize him. I found this odd that she would leave a disturbed, suicidal son home alone brooding about his upcoming hospitalization. At first I tried to offer comfort that it would only be temporary, but he insisted she was putting him away. Then he said something odd and chilling. He said his suicide would make the news. At the time, there were two people logged into the Triggering room to the best of my recollection.. One was an SF moderator. This hostile newcomer called me old and stupid and discounted my attempts at kindness. Then, he private messaged me. I assumed he was going to apologize. Instead he insulted me further. Then the newcomer and the SF moderator started chatting about Bestgore.com. My curiosity got the best of me and i clicked the link to find a cover photo of a naked Asian woman roasting on a spit. At that point I logged out as I clearly wasn't going to get any support there for my grief over the next day's funeral.
I honestly didn't make the connection until I read a National Enquirer article that stated that Adam Lanza had visited suicide chatrooms. At this point I called the FBI . The fellow who answered the phone and took the report didn't know who Adam Lanza was, but I gave him my information, nonetheless. When I suggested to the Suicide Forum moderators that Adam Lanza had been there, they banned me. A few days later, the moderator, Brandon Scweiger aka Cult Logic pm'd me on facebook saying that people at the forum hoped i would kill myself and would celebrate my death. At this point, I called the Connecticut State police and gave one of the detctives my information. I was called subsequently by another Connecticut detective and tried to recall the conversation to the best of my memory. I hope I was helpful in some way. The whole experience has been deeply disturbing. ((((((((

[boonergang]

153. Is this thread dead?

I am new here and I guess I need to post more comments before I can create a thread.

[boonergang]

154. Reply

So I will reply to myself as either no one is reading or they think I am an attention seeker.

[boonergang]

155. Shock

I still find it hard to accept that I was in a chat with this deranged and hateful killer. Its a bit of a Forrest Gump thing as I have met Presidents, movie and rock stars and now I unfortunately chatted with Adam Lanza .

[astle13]

157. More details?

This is very interesting.. Can you remember his username? If so we may be able to see l=all his activity on the site etc..

[pamelavalemont]

156. Federal background checks useless: mental illness cannot be seen or recognized like physical illness

Whatever were the contributing or causal factors to Adam's mental illness - whether they be genetic predisposition, sexual abuse, prescription drugs, or any number of other things that have been suggested - there can be do doubt that the mental health authorities and current system plus Nancy Lanza’s ridiculous and irresponsible attitude to letting Adam carry 3 of her guns at the time she was extremely worried about his mental health, were the primary causes for these fatalities. However, his father is not exempt from blame. I have just seen a picture on the Internet of Adam Lanza at one year of age or possibly younger, playing with a real gun, surrounded by an arsenal of weapons. His Dad now says he wishes he had never been born. I am sure Adam also wishes this now, in retrospect, that he had never been born, certainly not into that family. They, the crazy gun culture of America to which they ascribed and contributed, combined with the absence of tight gun laws in the USA are entirely responsible for this incredibly cruel tragedy. There is no psychological test that can adequately safeguard the community against such a crazed gunman, and no way of knowing when they will strike, where, or at whom. The only answer is to ban the guns out of the hands of the general populace, especially heavyweight military hardware, for whom such guns were not designed in the first place.

Adam Lanza and the Newtown Massacre ebook
http://www.lulu.com/shop/pamela-lillian-valemont/adam-lanza-and-the-newtown-massacre/ebook/product-21281329.html