*Scapegoating video games and other violent media is nonsense*

[whatchamacallit]

I don't believe any media - makes anybody - do anything. If exposure is all it took to make one aggressive, those of us who work in the video games industry, and are immersed in all aspects of it all day long, would be the most aggressive and violent people around. I can tell you that my coworkers are some of the brightest, most talented, and sane people I've ever known. They are rational, respectful, courteous, generous, normal... Most are loving parents. Though I can't say for certain, I doubt many of them are members of the NRA, let alone own a firearm.

IMO mental illness is the issue. Now before you accuse me of blaming people with depression, anxiety, manias, syndromes... or a host of "disorders" most of us suffer, let me make it clear I'm talking about severe mental illness. The kind that makes it difficult to distinguish reality from fiction and right from wrong, and makes you unable to feel empathy. People like that are time bombs. We had them in this world before movies and video games, and always will.

[xoom]

1. I agree completely

[okieinpain]

2. +1 n/t.

[frazzled]

3. That's the addiction talking.

With proper medical supervision, you could learn to enjoy nonviolent games.

[white_wolf]

9. Please tell me this is sarcasm.

I can't tell anymore. DU's gone nuts the past few days.

[lbrtbell]

10. That's the damned truth.

Notice how the few sensible threads like these are getting the fewest recs these days?

[roguevalley]

60. I don't believe you can conclusively exclude anything. If guns make you

kill people, fakes guns in games can and probably are a part of the process of getting there. This is like guns don't kill people crap that gun nuts say. I say it all adds up. spending your life involved in violent video games has to have an effect on some and saying it isn't so is just like the gun nuts. IMO.

Take out video and put in guns. Then read it out loud.

[GeorgeGist]

4. Violence sells.

[whatchamacallit]

6. It does

but we have it backwards; it's not video games making society violent, it's a violent society making video games.

[KittyWampus]

15. Actually, it's corporations using sophisticated marketing techniques making those video games...

and unaware hypocrites who buy that crap.

[whatchamacallit]

29. Uh huh...

How come their all-pervasive marketing doesn't work on you?

[Eddie Haskell]

5. Well, they don't help.

I don't believe playing kill games all day long is healthy.

[whatchamacallit]

7. I don't disagree

Everything in moderation. Most people know better than to drink themselves to death too.

[lob1]

56. But ALL countries play the same violent video games, and yet their kill rate

is a small fraction of ours. And that's considering population differences.

[Superbot]

8. Most people don't imitate what they see or play

But some people do. The kids at Columbine dressed up like Neo in the Matrix, and the shooter at the theatre dressed up like the Joker. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming movies. But there are some sick nuts out there who momentarily live there lives in a sick fantasy world.

[oldhippie]

51. Most gun owners don't kill people ....

.. or even fantasize over it in violent video games.

Violent video games and rap music should be banned.

[Honeycombe8]

11. You are free to believe what you want. Or you can choose to believe in science.

Studies show that there is a correlation between violent behavior/action and watching a lot of it on tv by children. How strong hte correlation is, I don't recall. But there's no doubt about it.

Science. Do you believe in it? Is there really global warming? Is an oil spiill really bad for the environment?

Here's where you test your beliefs, even when you don't like the result. Well, do ya? Believe in science?

Besides studies, it's common sense. Watching a lot of violence would naturally desensitize someone to violence. It may not make them murderers, but after a few years of watching horror movies, a person does progress in the horror aspects...the ones at first don't seem strong enough years later. You've become desensitized to it somewhat.

[Fumesucker]

14. Correlation does not imply causation

That's fairly elementary logic.

[whatchamacallit]

19. There's a difference between accepted science and studies

If studies are conducted properly, and yield verifiable, repeatable outcomes, they can become accepted science. There's also a difference between correlation and causation. But you know that.

[theKed]

61. I think that was, in fact, his point.

[jeff47]

21. If that were true, the rate of violent crime would be up.

But violence has been steadily declining since the 80s. Yes, we get plenty of spectacular incidents. But the overall rate is down.

If your claims about TV and video games are true, then why is the rate of violent crime down?

Science means you have to deal with all of reality, not just the parts that fit into your opinions.

[Honeycombe8]

27. Mass killings have been up since the advent of violent computer games (the last 2 decades).

I didn't say that violent computer games CAUSE murders. Read my post again. I said studies show a correlation between watching a lot of violence and playing violent video games, and violent BEHAVIOR in children.

If I were to say that studies have shown that exposure to guns, just watching people handle and shoot them, has been linked to violent behavior in children, you'd be ready to accept that.

Accepting that violent games have a causation in violent behavior among the young does not mean that gun controls wouldn't be effective in some way or should not be passed.

A serious problem, which I think we all agree this is, should be confronted from different aspects. Both causation and method sounds reasonable. Mental illness, exposure of children to violence, and ability to get ammo and certain kinds of guns.

[jeff47]

39. If your theory was correct, non-mass killings would also be up.

You are claiming violent media leads to real-world violence, spectacular or not. But real world violence is actually down while exposure to violent media is up. Since the stats are moving in the opposite direction, it would not appear there is a correlation.

Further, you get much more media violence in Japan - they have video games so horrible no one will distribute them to the rest of the world. Yet Japan is one of the least crime-ridden countries on the planet. If your correlation existed, how could Japan completely avoid it? Even if there were other societal pressures to act as a brake, you'd still get people causing real-world violence if there was a significant correlation.

My objection is not some misplaced love of violent games - I'm old enough to have enjoyed plenty of games before first-person shooters were invented and feel that they've squelched too much of gaming's variety.

But you're asserting a correlation when the data shows the stats moving in the opposite direction.

[Major Nikon]

38. If you believe so strongly in correlative evidence, then tell me what this means

Violent crime has unquestionably gone down significantly during the same time period that video games, movies, TV, and music has unquestionably gotten more violent. How do you explain that and does it not introduce doubt? If correlative evidence were that significant, then one could argue that these violent things you speak of actually reduce actual violence.

[backscatter712]

12. A-fucking-men.

It's video games!
It's violent movies!
It's comic books!
It's Dungeons and Dragons!
It's kids with Aspergers! Lock 'em up!

With tragedies, we get the opportunity for action, but we also get morons who stir up moral panics, and often succeed.

[KittyWampus]

17. Moral panics? So is concern over Rape Culture also "moral panic"?

[KittyWampus]

13. It's called a Culture of Violence. You either support it our you don't.

Buy into violent media and you support it.

[Odin2005]

16. The anti-video game people subconsciously think people are stupid...

...and need help from Big Brother to be a good human being. They may call themselves "progressives", but thinking people are inherently bad and need to be saved from themselves is a conservative belief.

[KittyWampus]

18. I love video games. Who is "anti-video games"? And people who buy into violent crap are tools of the

corporations peddling it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. You mean like the two person shop

That designed minecraft? I should warn you, all that building is very violent.

FYI, one of the most popular games world wide.

[Terry_M]

45. Thank you, I did enjoy Max Payne 3.

And apparently I'm a tool

[Honeycombe8]

32. Who is anti-video? Let's have some names. Did they send you e-mails? Or on TV?

I don't see any in this thread who are anti-video games. I love video games, myself.

Now, violent video games for children, hours on end....that's something else. No one is speaking of banning them. But parents who let their kids, even teens, spend their time that way aren't going to be happy with the results. And the rest of society may not be happy with their teen, either.

Violent video games are rated, and kids below a certain age aren't supposed to be playing them.

It does desensitize kids to violence, and objectifies "victims." An adult is better able to handle that, I think. A kid's brain is still forming; they are very impressionable. It may do no harm. Or it may. That's all I'm saying. It should be looked at. There's no reason not to.

To take a position, not based on studies or science, that it does no harm, is not really wanting to get at the core of the problem. If you only want to do ONE thing, because that fits in with what you want to do.

Well, I want gun control, too. And I want other things considered, as well: ammo is maybe more important than the guns; mental illness; violence in video games and movies that kids are allowed to see; bullying.

[Odin2005]

36. Tipper Gore? Joe Lieberman?

[Honeycombe8]

20. Few things are caused by ONE thing. It's probably a combination. Besides, you're confusing CAUSE

with METHOD.

The METHOD is the gun, which is how a killer can kill so many. But the CAUSE is something else. Maybe many other things.

Going at both the method and the cause makes sense to me.

Cause CAN be, but not necessarily....mental dysfunction, too much obsessiveness with violence in computer games and movies, bullying at school, dysfunctional family (related to mental dysfunction maybe), drugs, and probably other things.

METHOD for mass killing can be guns or bombs.

Plus...you can't mass kill unless you get your hands on a lot of ammo.

[whatchamacallit]

24. Media isn't the cause

that's your confusion. If it could cause it would cause in everyone.

[randome]

30. That's a ridiculous and unwarranted assumption on your part.

Violent movies and gaming can have an effect on already unstable personalities. That is not saying that gaming is to blame but it is important to recognize that in some individuals, it CAN have an effect.

Everyone in their own little cottage industry is so defensive because they think someone's going to take away their precious guns or games.

No one SHOULD be saying that. But we need to recognize that all these things have a negative effect on unstable personalities.

[whatchamacallit]

31. What do you think has a more profound effect on an unstable personality

a video game, or an altercation with someone you have emotional issues with. Seems the kid was more inspired by his issues with his mom than anything else. If you can find a way to outlaw family altercations, I'm all in.

[randome]

33. This is not the time to apportion blame and see who comes out with more.

It's time for EVERYONE to step up and do their part.

There are hard-core NRA advocates who are saying enough is enough.

When is someone from the gaming industry going to say the same thing?

No one should be trying to link one mass killing to one cause. It takes a lot of different influences to push someone over the edge.

When is someone from the gaming industry going to admit that much?

[whatchamacallit]

37. Did someone establish that the kid was "violent game addicted"

or is that just an assumption? I haven't been keeping up on all the details, too busy making murder instructions. Bwahahahahahahaha...

[randome]

42. You keep going back to the same nonsense.

I am not saying he was addicted! I am not saying that violent video gaming is to blame for the mass killing!

Okay?

I AM saying that for already disturbed individuals, the prevalence of guns and violence can have an EFFECT. Many members of the NRA are saying enough is enough. When is someone from the gaming industry going to say the same?

Any statement on lessening violence in the media is NOT accepting blame for mass killings. It WOULD BE accepting the fact that the prevalence of violence can have an EFFECT on already disturbed individuals. That is a different thing, entirely.

It takes a village.

[Honeycombe8]

35. No, it wouldn't. I have a gun. I have never killed anyone or anything.

So .... guns don't cause murder, obviously.

But I'm an ADULT. Kids and teens are much more impressionable. That's why there's a law distinguishing them as minors. Their brains are still developing.

For you to say that violent video games played by a teen all day long for days on end does not "cause" any behavior changes...what do you base that statement on? There are studies that do indeed show that watching a lot of violence, by kids, is reflected in their behavior immeidately afterward.

I'm not saying it CAUSES anything in particular. I'm saying there ARE studies that link the two, so it should be looked at. There's no reason not to...if you want to get at the problem. EVERYTHING should be looked at and not dismissed offhand for political reasons.

[99Forever]

22. "It" isn't video games and other violent media.

"It" also isn't mental illness, severe or not.


"It" IS the ready availability of guns to any fucking yahoo that wants them, including the severely fucking insane.


ALL of the other noise is meant for one thing and one thing only, to muddy the waters and keep the focus off the PRIMARY reason for not just mass shootings, but many thousands of other needless deaths and life changing wounds.

[randome]

23. Let me get this straight.

The 'gamers' blame the guns.
The gun nuts blame the 'gamers'.
The mental health officials blame both guns and 'gamers'.
The schools blame the parents and the parents blame the schools.

Result: no one needs to change their lives in the slightest because no one is entirely to blame.

The correct answer is: all these things have an affect on unstable personalities. Isn't it time we did SOMETHING to lessen the chances of unstable personalities going on killing sprees?

I've seen some hard-core NRA types here on DU say that enough is enough. When is someone going to step up from one of the other factions and say, not that they are to blame for mass killings, but to admit that they can do their part to make those killings less frequent?

It takes a village, people! Step up!

[Ilsa]

26. I think you said that really well.

Videos don't cause this. But they can desensitize someone who is already at risk because of other mental health problems.

[jeff47]

41. We can very clearly show the link between guns and violence.

However, any claims against violent games, parents or schools would require something showing an actual correlation. And the fundamental problem with that is violent crime is down.

If there was a correlation with any of violent games, today's parents or today's schools, violent crime wouldn't be down.

[randome]

43. Really? There are plenty of hard-core gun enthusiasts who would argue with you about the gun link.

But there are more and more hard-core gun enthusiasts who are saying, 'You know what? Maybe guns aren't to BLAME but maybe society would be a little better off on balance if we had some better regulations?'

When is someone from the gaming industry going to step up and say the same?

[whatchamacallit]

48. I don't like violence

I don't own any weapons. If you read many of my posts you'll see I'm a pacifist. Believe it or not. I admit some companies go too far, and there is some validity to the notion of desensitization to violence. But invariably, the people who do these things are found to be unstable apart from their entertainment. If I actually thought video games were to blame for these events, I would quit immediately and denounce the industry. It hasn't been proved.

[randome]

54. Again, I am NOT saying video games are to blame.

And anyone who DOES say that is looking at the problem through a one-dimensional filter.

No one should be asking for PROOF of any linkage.

What we should be willing to admit is the desensitization you mentioned. But NRA types are willing to admit that maybe better gun regulations would help make mass killings less common.

Why isn't someone from the gaming industry willing to do the same? Our society would be better off with LESS glorified violence, not MORE.

[jeff47]

53. The gun link is obvious - you can't go on a shooting spree without one.

Again, your claims of correlation keep running into the problem that violent crime is down. For there to be a correlation, violent crime and violent video games have to be going in the same direction. They are going in the opposite direction.

When is someone from the gaming industry going to step up and say the same?

When will someone from the dairy industry going to step up and say the same? After all, every one of these shooters drank milk at one point in their life. Clearly exposure to dairy can trigger a series of events in certain individuals that result in mass shootings.

Sounds silly, doesn't it? Well, how's it different from your claims? I realize it sounds logical to you, but statistics just don't back up your claims.

[randome]

55. Mass killings are up.

We should not care about finding PROOF of a linkage. Our society would be better off with LESS glorified violence, not MORE.

That's something we can all agree on. If NRA types are willing to admit that our society would be better off with less easy access to guns, why can't someone from the gaming industry say as much about access to glorified violence?

That's not accepting blame for anything. It's admitting that we are all connected.

[jeff47]

57. Again, your claim requires all killings to go up, not just mass killings.

Your claim is that video game violence triggers real-world violence in certain people. But video game violence is up, real-world violence is down. If it was a trigger, that could not be true.

What if it turned out that violent video games actually reduced real-world violence? What if people releasing their violent impulses in a virtual world reduced their propensity for real-world violence?

That story is as logically consistent as your claim, and benefits from actually fitting with the statistics. However, I will not claim it is true absent decent studies.

Our society would be better off with LESS glorified violence, not MORE.

One of your problems understanding this situation appears to be the belief that games actually glorify their violence. They aren't like movies. Games state, over and over again, that war is hell. That it causes nothing but pain. It's on TV and in movies where violence solves problems nicely and cleanly. We'd be much better off with people playing violent video games than watching violent movies and TV if your theory was true.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Yup, the debunking

http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html

FYI. The Feds and PBS are in the conspiracy if you are to believe these folks.

[earthside]

34. "I don't believe any media - makes anybody - do anything."

So, businesses big and small and politicians have wasted billions of dollars over the last 100 years on marketing and advertising.

Who woulda thunk it?

This line of blind assertion is the very mirror of what the gun nuts are contending, to wit: I don't believe any guns - make anybody - do anything.

And ... mental illness being the issue? Well, that is the argument of the gun idolators/fetishists: it isn't the guns, it is the 'evil' (crazy) individuals who are solely responsible.

Sorry, but the availability of tools of mass slaughter, the culture of excessive violence in the U.S., stresses that impact individuals ... all of these things contribute.

[whatchamacallit]

40. Let me qualify: I don't believe any media - makes anybody - do anything crazy

It might give shape to the crazy, but it doesn't cause it. I stand by that.

[socialindependocrat]

44. I figure that someone has to be out of their mind to kill someone

I think people can play fantacy games and still know how to act in society.

I have also, met a few people while I was growing up that I can now see were not very stable.
These were the people you didn't hang out with but you saw them walk thru your neighborhood
on their way to and from somewhere.

These were the people who did odd things that were against the law - vandalism, killing animals,
sometimes breaking and entering even.... They seemed to do things for emotional stimulation.
this was long before video games (1950s). These people got ideas all on their own to do bad things.

Now we have names for all the mental problems - I don't mean to say that mental illness is bad.
I am saying that certain people can be mentally ill in very destructive ways - toward themselves
and others.

Now we have rapists, serial killers, arsonists (some who burn churches), people who kidnap children,
mad bombers and mass murderers. If one of these people pops up every month we have enough to
keep the news stations busy sensationalizing what an unsafe world we live in. And as things happen
we see copycats who are enticed to repeat something that has already happened.

These people are going to go whacky no matter what. Something really simple can set them off. we've
all see the TV show where someone tries to pick a fight and no matter what the "victim" trys to say to
get out of the fight the bully always misinterprets it as an insult. these people are all over the place (it's
why we don't go out at night to restaurants in unfamiliar neighborhoods) . I think it's lucky we don't see
more violence than we do.

I am not trying to say we shouldn't do something about the violence but what do you do before these
people commit a crime? Any teachers reading this can say they have seen kids like this. They don't do
well in school and they are just waiting to quit school at 16 years old. What do the teachers do in cases
like these? We don't put them on a federal "watch list". We may call tem repeat offenders and career
criminals. Like the guys currently in the news who killed a girl for the thrill of it!

There are signs that kids exhibit that may alert us to a potential problem but, being the polite society that
we are, we don't want to stigmatize the child and we don't want to piss off the parents by suggesting that
the child be tested and we can't do anything until a crime is committed.

So where do we go from here? Suggestions?

and even if we identify someone who exhibits psychotic behavior and are lucky enough to find a drug to
stabalize the individual - who's to say they don't like the side effects of the drug (they make me feel tired)
and they go off the drug - what then?

[cynatnite]

46. Do you think that the shooter in Aurora was influenced?

He seemed to think he was the Joker from the Batman.

I don't think they make anyone do anything, but I think ignoring the impact violence in entertainment(which includes video games) has is sticking your head in the sand.

A few months ago we began limiting our son's exposure to violent video games, movies and television. We feel that it was doing more harm than good.

We don't regret that one bit.

[whatchamacallit]

50. Good move with your son

if for no other reason than he'll be engaged in (hopefully) more productive pursuits.

[JesterCS]

47. I agree. I play violent games every day

doesnt mean I want to go out and kill people.

[oldhippie]

49. Until you do. nt

nt

[underthematrix]

52. Never understood why parents buy violent video games for their

children and adolescents - seems counterintuitive

[jeff47]

59. Only if you don't know what actually happens in those violent video games

They depict violence and the result of violence as awful. Their stories are variations on "war is hell". Friends of the hero die needlessly and uselessly. This is different from violent movies and TV, where violence is an excellent solution to the lead character's problem.

If your choice is buying the game Gears of War 3 or the movie Patton, Gears of War will do better at teaching your kid that violence is bad, war is bad, global warming is bad and WMDs are horrific. Even though the kid will be running around with a chainsaw strapped to an assault rifle.

[MrSlayer]

58. Yep. As dumb as the asshole PMRC in the 80's.

Fuck the censorship people. It's not D&D, it's not Heavy Metal, it's not movies, tv or video games. It's crazy people with easy access to killing machines.

Help the mentally ill and make it really hard to get these instruments of death. You might not stop every one but you can take steps to slow them down to a crawl.