General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIF YOUR REACTION TO SHOOTINGS (edit to include positive call to action)
Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:04 PM - Edit history (2)
[font color="green"]EDIT to include a suggestion:
As part of the Cards of Compassion Project, if anyone wants to mail sympathy cards or letters of support and solidarity to the school and the community, the school address is:
Sandy Hook Elementary School, 12 Dickenson Drive, Sandy Hook, CT 06482
Sending a card is something small but at least it's something we can do to let them know they're in our thoughts, even after the news coverage subsides.[/font]
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This thought WASN'T my first reaction to the tragedy; it is in response to observing people -- online and "real world" -- expressing this very concern, about their guns...not the victims.
PEOPLE WHO REACT THIS WAY -- to protect their weapons -- ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, IN MY VERY STRONG OPINION.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)AndyA
(16,993 posts)Humans have empathy for others, they don't enjoy seeing others in pain.
I hurt for the classmates who witnessed this first hand. I hurt for the families who are experiencing the terror of not knowing if their loved one is safe. I hurt for those who will be in pain when they learn their loved one is gone.
Human beings don't do this. I don't know what they are, but they can't be human.
humbled_opinion
(4,423 posts)will take serious leadership and expenditure of political capital to solve, but it must be solved...
We should mount a protest against guns march that is equally as large and verbal as the pro gun marches are.
Rockyj
(538 posts)"Blaming the car for a drunk driver killing someone is to misunderstand the problem
My response: "STOP it! Innocent Children have just been murdered QUIT trying 2 protect your F-N guns!"
I don't understand how anyone would go out of there way to defend guns, especially so soon after the mass killings of children...now I know its because they're not human!
RobertSeattle
(10,896 posts)hootinholler
(26,449 posts)If you first reaction is when will we get rid of these guns, your priorities also suck.
tiny elvis
(979 posts)everyone's real first reaction is 'holy shit'
you have thrown up chaff
as if gun hate is without reason and a defect
pipewrench
(194 posts)Metal detectors in kindergarten. What has this world come to.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I feel sick.
All those poor people.
What the hell... What the goddamned hell
Harry Monroe
(2,935 posts)xchrom
(108,903 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)"People don't kill people, guns kill people" bullshit from a coworker today. I wanted to tear into her. That is the most mindless piece of garbage I've ever heard, but the plebes pull it out of their dittobrains every time unspeakable tragedy like this and the shootings the other day happen. Every single time. I told her guns make it a helluva lot easier for people to kill A LOT of people - and coldly distance themselves while doing it.
I'm so unbelievably angry and heartsick right now. Children. Something has to be done.
Faygo Kid
(21,478 posts)I actually wish I had not gone over there to see the reaction - they are claiming Obama and the feds are behind it to take their guns. Disgusting and just about as low as they have ever gone. Unbelievably vile with little sympathy for the victims and their families.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)According to them, Obama has been brainwashing Manchurian candidates ever since Tuscon just so he'd have the political momentum to start banning everything...
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)it would be the type of thinking of a mass shooter. People who say things like that should be checked out.
Caretha
(2,737 posts)then they have leaped to the 7th hell, may they rot for eternity.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)With or without evidence, that is!
In the Bush years, only major tragedies we're regularly discussed as false flags. Under Obama, everything goes.
It's simply crazy.
(I frequent CT boards because I am working on a research project about Conspiracy Theories)
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)but I certainly get your point
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)gun control. But when I heard about the kids and numbers-- more like, Oh my god...
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)Only reason he became a Republican. He bought into that shit. My first reaction was shock then thats fucked up. Think my lips curled seeing the media interviewing the kids. Bout as bad as the shooter. Got a bat? Media fucking circus. Hey kids how much fun was that. Firecrackers. No and keep the fuck away.
UndahCovah
(125 posts)I was wondering how the fuck the reporters are managing to sound so glib and unemotional. "Hey kids, what did YOU see?"
FBaggins
(26,760 posts)if your first reaction is to think "those 2A nuts are going to try to protect their guns" your priorities suck too.
There are dozens of victims to think about and at least one crazy person intent on killing others... guns don't need to enter the conversation at all.
kurtzapril4
(1,353 posts)Of course guns have to enter the conversation.
FBaggins
(26,760 posts)Does fertilizer need to enter the conversation when someone makes a bomb?
Black powder and pipe?
The problem is the crazy perp... the concern is for the victims. Any thought that jumps directly toward a political/legislative "fix" for something that doesn't reduce the likelihood of crazy perps or victims is just as craven as the thought that jumps directly to the political/legislative desires of the other side.
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)by law enforcement. The problem will slowly resolve by attrition. Bing/Google UK gun laws/crimes.
Zookeeper
(6,536 posts)figuring out how to build a bomb, gathering the ingredients (without raising red flags), assembling the bomb without blowing up one's self, placing the bomb without arousing suspicion?
Please.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I've been getting that bullshit in threads too - but if they don't have guns, they'll just build a BOMB!
uh-huh, sure they will.
OldHippieChick
(2,434 posts)My next reaction was not only why these crazies have to take innocent lives along w/ their own, but yes, when are we going to get rid of these assault weapons.
ChillZilla
(56 posts)Hey, let's take everyone's guns?
Self centered either way. Unless your first thought was for the kids, teachers and their families, you care more about policies than people. I think that's pretty fair.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)Daniel537
(1,560 posts)billh58
(6,635 posts)it's now gone to pizzaland...
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)And you're on the wrong board.
FBaggins
(26,760 posts)Then you may be on the right board... but haven't been here very long.
Glaisne
(517 posts)and their families. My second thought was yes, let's take everyone's guns! I am done. Finished. Outlaw guns, take them away, institute rigid controls. But also expand mental health services, support and interventions. If reports about this guy's mental state come out in the following days we'll know that this is an issue that needs addressing.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)are already spewing this.
It's all about "them." They're the "real" victims, not the 18 babies slaughtered in the school.
Freepers are narcissitic terrorists - every last one of them.
I can't say what I really think of them right now as it may get me banned, but suffice it to say I'm not envisioning the freeper fucks in a very nice situation.
They are pure evil among us.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)a shit about dead children because dead children = people pissy about guns.
Filibuster Harry
(666 posts)little kids and their parents. Then when I saw the picture of police escorting the children out of school it just sickened me. An awful, awful day for this country and my state. My heart and prayers go out to all.
Earlier, on another thread, i mentioned that if the president tried to change the gun laws it would only be defeated either by a House R vote or a Senate R filibuster. But now, I say , the laws have to change.
The current one is not working. And you know what, let's see the R house vote it down or the R senate filibuster it.
ENOUGH ALREADY WITH THESE GUN DEATHS.
eyepaddle
(6,352 posts)AldoLeopold
(617 posts)Step 1.) Abolish the Second Amendment
Step 2.) Collect 200 million guns. This may involve force.
I'm all for both, but we have these conversations and I think fail to understand the magnitude of the problem? Realistically, I don't see how either can be done either politically or practically in this country.
billh58
(6,635 posts)With the restoration of sane and sensible gun regulation, it's entirely possible to clean this mess up over time. The argument that "nothing can be done" is pure bullshit, and is simply more NRA disinformation.
Making guns hard to get, and even harder to keep is a good start. Regulations aimed at severely limiting the carry of guns in public, the enforcement of illegal carry laws, and the legislation of serious gun responsibility laws will go a long way toward lessening the violence that the NRA has engendered.
AldoLeopold
(617 posts)In that spirit, I've started a meta-discussion thread (as have a few others) concerning disbanding the gun forum and replacing it with a Repealing the 2nd Amendment thread or something along those lines.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240186779
It would filter in and then out those that directly oppose it, and wouldn't disperse those members to the "7 winds." It would instead bring those DU members to light and serve a positive purpose as well in this fight.
Its a bit of a witch hunt, but I don't really care.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)NOW is the time for public demand and rational suggestions.
It's NOT impossible.
Progressive dog
(6,918 posts)Are you a member of a well regulated militia? Do you understand that "bear arms" has always (until the NRA and gun industry redefined it) applied only to those in a militia or other military unit? Not until the recent RW Presidents and the NRA sponsored propaganda has there been any question of Federal government's power to regulate and restrict these weapons.
AldoLeopold
(617 posts)And must be removed - no matter its origins. If we act still under law, which often I doubt, then the 2nd amendment must be repealed in order to go forward with removing the guns once and for all.
The imperative to removing the guns entirely from our society is no longer even a question in my mind, but simply remains now as to when and how.
Brainstormy
(2,381 posts)Here is how Madison formulated what was originally the fourth amendment in his original proposal:
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military services in person
This makes it clear that the intent was asserting the right to create a militia, or national army for protection of the new country. It was never about individual weapons.
You'd never know it, but there have always been historical scholars who believe the 2nd amendment is being misinterpreted.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)the Bill of Rights was enumeration of individual rights not a collective one and so it would be with your interpretation of Madison's draft which also says and in this case begins with "The people's right to keep and bear arms will not be infringed", which is the operative. Just as in what actually passed the militia piece is rationale for the individual. What was omitted (and should have remained) was also operative-the right to be a conscientious objector.
Either which way you try to flip it, it remains a right to the people not the Federal Government or the states. What is implied as operative, in my opinion is the states have the right to form militias (also controversial at the time).
At the time both the individual right to keep and bear arms and the states' right to form militias were both points of vigorous debate. Those in favor of a strong central government preferred all martial authority be vested to that government and one gets the sense that the individual right to keep and bear arms had divisions irregardless on what balance of power one preferred between the Federal Government and the states. Out of all of that what distilled is what we have which is an amendment that did both but first and foremost enumerated an individual freedom and right.
Even if you were right about Madison's original (which I'm by no means am I sure of that) intent, that isn't what actually passed is it? There was little more consensus than there is now but what passed muster is as close to that as could be considering the high bar amendment must clear.
Kennah
(14,315 posts)Even trying #1 and #2 would lead to 300 GOOPers in the House.
AldoLeopold
(617 posts)I will have done my conscience. You do yours and maybe we'll meet in the middle.
Kennah
(14,315 posts)AldoLeopold
(617 posts)Then yep. You bet. If we can't protect our young then the tribe is nothing. Not a bit - nothing at all.
Kennah
(14,315 posts)... you think they'll preserve the gun laws, environmental laws, labor laws, child labor laws? There will be fires to rival the Triangle Shirtwaist fire every month.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)I say this as the wife of gun owner, who says more guns make a dangerous society, and also as a Special Needs Pre-K TA who has LIVED THROUGH A LOCKDOWN, hundling my child against to me in a bathroom for 2 hours with shoots fired on campus. Oh, yeah, FLORIDA GUNS will make everyone safe. Did the media report this? It happens all the TIME.
Here this Michigan? Let's have GUNS on K-12 schools. You are SICK, SICK people.
Daemonaquila
(1,712 posts)your priorities as a human being suck.
WTF? We had a massive tragedy. The fanatic anti-gun folks are as disgusting as the fanatic pro-gun folks, both running off happily to make this tragedy another platform for their personal pro-gun or anti-gun politics. Cut that crap out.
Redford
(373 posts)We need to have an honest conversation about the effects of Mental Illness in this country.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)but I have my reasons for sharing this message. I'm surrounded (online and offline) by people whose first thought is indeed what is in this graphic.
My hope is that they will realize that their priorities are off and that we as a society have a problem, and it requires civil discussion.
Most rational people realize there are MANY factors fueling this crisis, not one thing.
But if someone's knee-jerk reaction is to protect their Second Amendment rights, my personal opinion is that their priorities suck and THEY ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.
Edited to add that this WASN'T my first reaction to the tragedy. It came to mind after observing others react with the "oh shit they're gonna take our guns" comments.
Care Acutely
(1,370 posts)I'm damn proud to be an anti-gun "folk." I want less dead children, the gun nutz are perfectly happy to see the slaughter continue as long as they can have their bang-bang toys.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)No excuse to have these available for sale to the general public, because, as you can see, they continue to be used for mass executions of innocent people. Am not one who has cared about guns one way or another until the Aurora shooting 5 months ago.
I want the assault weapons ban back in place NOW!
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)spark a discussion about guns in this country? How stupid!
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Take your defense of guns somewhere else on a day like this. And don't dare try to tell me you're not defending gun culture, because that's precisely what you're doing. You may be a sociopath, and if that gets my post locked, I'll take it.
aandegoons
(473 posts)Each did their part.
billh58
(6,635 posts)"This" tragedy is but another one in a long line of tragedies caused by the proliferation of fucking guns in the hands of too many nut jobs. Gun regulation proponents are not "fanatic" in the same sense as Gungeoneer right-wingers who can not leave the safety of their fucking toilets without a gun strapped to their body.
People like you who do not recognize the difference between sane people who want to bring back, and enforce, gun regulation, and the fucking NRA zombies are one of the reasons that these horrendous incidents keep happening. You should stop enabling the right-wing Republican gun nuts of the NRA before you have the audacity to tell reasonable people to "cut that crap out."
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)CUT THAT CRAP OUT
Care Acutely
(1,370 posts)Grins
(7,231 posts)I got an pro-NRA email at 10:30 this morning, and I didn't even know about the shooting until after 1:00.
It was another one of those bogus emails, this one about Charlton Heston and his phucking gun collection. Turns out (via Snopes) that the collector was not Heston, but a now-deceased NRA board member, Bruce Stern.
Stern lived in Connecticut until his death. Trumbull, Connecticut, to be precise; about 15-miles south of where this shooting....mass murder...took place this AM.
Phuck you Scalia. And Thomas, and Alito, and Kennedy, and Roberts. Thank you for ignoring the operative clause of the Second Amendment.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)get the red out
(13,468 posts)But I wouldn't doubt that was a rampant thought at the NRA.
felines13
(1 post)today i stopped my christmas chores...my god, how do the parents go on with so many children dead. how does anyone go on with loved ones dead. this world has gone to hell. it makes me wonder is there really a GOD. my thoughts are with all who have to go thru this tragedy.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)My apologies for not reading this sooner, and welcoming you here properly.
It is a sad day.
All I have are
Zookeeper
(6,536 posts)It is possible to have a range of thoughts and emotions all at once. For me, it was shock, horror, sorrow, and anger. AND: This is becoming a monthly occurrence (weekly?). The U.S. is sick with a gun fetish and I'm sick of gun nuts who will find an excuse for this.
Immediately thinking about tighter gun control to prevent mass murder is not the same as immediately thinking about protecting one's opportunity to own weapons of mass destruction.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)Many of us have a multitude of emotions at once, as you said. There is a certain segment of our society which is much more single-minded and won't enter civil discussion about this crisis -- the source of which is multifactorial. They try to block civil discussion, per the NRA, and I strongly believe they are part of the problem.
union_maid
(3,502 posts)Thank you. What you feel, along with heartbreak for the victims and their families - most of whom will never recover from this - is anger at the perpetrators. And some of us feel that the NRA and those who support it are perpetrators in these types of crimes.
KarenS
(4,087 posts)humbled_opinion
(4,423 posts)reduce the amount of guns in America shouldn't it be that our children are dying in their schoolyards to send that message?
kimbutgar
(21,195 posts)taken away by that crazy gun toting creep and how their parents must be devastated. I will be hugging my boy tonight.
John2
(2,730 posts)first reaction was anger, about the death of so many innocent kids and their teachers. Ot bought tears to my eyes. My second reaction was why this person did it? The more it dawned on me and the more information came in, the more anger I felt. I want to know what happened and why now. I also do think about the culture of this country, even when some of our elected leaders brag about the guns he owned. I think it makes some people feel big or glamorous, and don't understand about what guns are for. I don't think owning a lot of guns make me a big person. It is not just guns, it is this culture. It wasn't just Tayvon Martin this time, even though he was a kid too.
calimary
(81,500 posts)+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!!!!!!
samsingh
(17,601 posts)RobertSeattle
(10,896 posts)Their real name should be banished from the Earth.
They are to be referred to as NRA1, NRA2, NRA3...
malaise
(269,176 posts)Great post
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)If you've had this thought at all today you need psychological help, stat
ReRe
(10,597 posts)....they don't have a conscience; they are very self-centered, i,e, narcissistic; they have no feelings; they care about no one but themselves; they love guns more than their children; they sleep with their guns; hell, no telling what they do with their guns; they love to clean their guns, to touch them; they like to shoot them; some of them are sexually aroused by the sounds of gunfire; they love the smell of gun residue; some of them bury their guns to hide them, as they are so sure that someone someday is going to come and take them.
This is one sick hobby. By some sick sick individuals. Yeah, probably many gun owners don't fit the description above. We don't have a beef against them. The ones we have a beef with are the ones that don't even know the meaning of the word "priorities."
morningfog
(18,115 posts)myrna minx
(22,772 posts)galadrium
(1,115 posts)I say FUCK THE SHOOTER. Biggest case of misplaced anger i've seen in a long time.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)But the NRA has FINANCED a culture of violence on many levels in this country, preventing rational discourse and reasonable legislation and fueling the "us versus them" mentality that's destroying this country.
There are many things to be angry about as it pertains to these tragedies, including lack of adequate healthcare and social safety nets. Many factors seem to be involved in these senseless acts of horrific violence.
Not misplaced anger at all, as I see it. The NRA is one of the key puppetmasters in this culture of violence and misplaced priorities.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)If that's your first reaction, you're completely immoral.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:19 PM - Edit history (2)
the "oh, yeah? wells," the "be reasonables"
they DO see the guns as anthropomorphic: the guns have rights, the guns are worthy of love, the guns contain a part of one's soul like a horcrux
that might explain all the incessant comparisons with Islamophobic hysteria, censorship, Stalin, the Patriot Act, homophobia, etc.--they DO see motions against guns as as bad as those things
it's a Freudo-Marxist tangle of machine-love: this is a love of things that cannot love or feel
it is a love that makes a mockery of the notion of love
it is a love incompatible with life
it also explains why they only have hypotheticals--"if'a had my gun I coulda taken 'im, unlike ya helpless sittin' ducks": that's why we the nuts keep citing Suzanna Hupp and her hypothetical belief
lupinella
(365 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)JEB
(4,748 posts)pulled a Bush. Striking out violently with no regard for human life is the American way....consider Vietnam, Iraq, and most recently the many drone killings. As long as our government continues to kill wantonly, you can expect misguided citizens to follow suit.
piniella
(12 posts)This was Fats Limbaugh's reaction today, therefore Fats sucks.
DearHeart
(692 posts)I can even imagine!! My second thought was about how TERRIFIED and FRANTIC the parents must've been when they received the reverse 9-1-1 calls. Imagine if you worked an hour away and had to try and get to your child with that happening!! Then my next thought was these gun nuts are going to be saying "They're gonna take away our guns!"
Any normal adult would not be clinging to their guns, they would instead be trying to make our country safe again for the children!! We need to be defending our children's rights to grow up safely, without worrying about being shot to death on their way to school, in school, at the mall, or at the movie theater, etc. I'm beyond sick to death of this shit and I'm sick to death of people defending guns!!!
SunSeeker
(51,715 posts)GTurck
(826 posts)was deep anger and then I wrote a letter to the editor in the Texas city that I live in. 300 million guns in this country and many like my husband and I do not have even a hunting gun. They are too easy to get and damn the idea that I am protected by their presence. If that were true then murders and accidental killings would be closer to zero and that is demonstrably not true.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Notice the DU gungeon gun clutching DU crowd is missing from this thread.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Gun violence is only a symptom. We need to collectively take the cure for the disease if we really want to stop the violence and insanity.
The way of life known as Western Civilization is on a death path Our essential message to the world is a basic call to consciousness. The destruction of native cultures and people is the same process which has destroyed and is destroying life on this planet
The principles of righteousness demand that all thoughts of prejudice, privilege or superiority be swept away and that recognition be given to the reality that Creation is intended for the benefit of all equally even the birds and the animals, the trees and insects, as well as the human beings
We are living in a period of time in which we expect to see great changes in the economy of the colonizers We will soon see the end of an economy based on the supply of cheap oil, natural gas, and other resources, and that will greatly change the face of the world
The people who are living on this planet need to break with the narrow concept of human liberation, and begin to see liberation as something which needs to be extended to the whole of the Natural World. What is needed is the liberation of all the things that support Life the air, the waters, the trees all the things which support the sacred web of Life
(This Haudenosaunee Address to the Western World was first articulated to an array of NGOs at the United Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, October 1977)
Maineman
(854 posts)Computer games are used to teach math and other subjects. Videos are used to illustrate how to do math and other skills. Children learn how to do math from watching videos and playing computer games. Are we to believe that violent computer games, videos, and movies do not teach violence? Are we to believe that children decide to learn math from computer games, but turn off learning when the game involves shooting people? Are we to believe that children and young adults with mental health problems make this type of distinction? In other words, are we fools and idots? Will we continue to brainlessly accept the marketing spin of video and computer game profiteers when they assure us that violent games and videos do not affect behavior?
Oh, you say the people involved have a right to earn a living? Our Constitution is about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not life, liberty, and the pursuit of money. Violence training materials are certainly as big a public nuisance as organized crime. Stop violence education now!
Possession of movies, videos, and computer games that teach, illustrate, or depict gun violence should be banned. Possession of such should be totally illegal including existing products. In 1933, and for forty years thereafter, personal possession of gold was banned, and citizens were required to trade it in, especially gold coins. We can certainly do the same with violence training materials.
marias23
(379 posts)Please consider this: Turn your TV off. You don't need to know every detail as it unfolds. The repetition is deadening to the soul.
vkkv
(3,384 posts)Where is the anti-TAX crowd?
I want to know exactly how much in tax dollars someone's right to bear "ARMS" is COSTING ME.
How much are firearms costing us regarding police hours, prosecutor hours, government vehicles and insurance, gas, vehicle repairs, prison food, prison clothes, chains, water, court costs, judges salaries, district attorney pay, prison heat & electric, other court employees, jailer costs, court heating & electric, public defenders, hospitalization, welfare to victim's families, property liability insurance, coroner fees, cremation fees and other associated costs relating to gun crime??
Way too much cost per person just so that some idiot can own an automatic or semi-automatic or repeating rounds weapon.
Call your Congressman and demand an economic study on the costs!
Do it now to keep your tax dollars from protecting some crazy neighbor's "right" to own an Uzi.