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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFirst Amendment: "Can't Yell Fire" Second Amendment: "Can't Open Fire"
jody
(26,624 posts)napkinz
(17,199 posts)Conservatives talk about adhering strictly to every word of the Constitution, but when it comes to the opening phrase "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" ... they pretend it doesn't even exist.
They consider it just a throw-away line.
They can have their guns ... but there's that word ... REGULATED! Doesn't that mean the state -- for the purpose of creating a militia -- can determine under what conditions a person can own a gun (for example, requiring background checks, limiting the number or types of firearms a person can own, etc.)?
What am I missing?
sarisataka
(18,774 posts)and you have it.
The 2A permits RKBA, but implicitly constrains their use.
jody
(26,624 posts)sarisataka
(18,774 posts)allows you to carry a gun, it does not permit you to use it indiscriminately.
The 2A supports the RKBA, and you are allowed to use such arms for the security of a free stae, which I believe would include self defense. It would also allow other uses legalized through law, such as hunting.
jody
(26,624 posts)sarisataka
(18,774 posts)AWB was/is a waste of time and resources. Let's do something that will help and give the dead horse a break.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)He didn't specify, but I think the time has come to start considering taking ACTION.
It's time to start talking about SOLUTIONS.
And to enacting those solutions.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)"The right of members of a well-regulated militia to bear arms shall not be infringed"?
Seems pretty simple if that's what they wanted to do.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)... "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" exists. And yet it's so often ignored, explained away, minimized.
I don't understand why so many strict constructionists are strict about everything in the Constitution ... except the Second Amendment. They always fail to to quote the opening of the Second Amendment ... and the few times they do, they treat the phrase "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" as some kind of throw-away line.
(I keep thinking of the episode of "All In The Family" where Archie mentions only the second half of the Second Amendment and Mike has to remind him of the opening clause.)
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)...I don't think it means what you think it means.
A militia is all able-bodied men of a certain age. The way the Second Amendment was written was a "because of this, then this" kind of thing.
Because "a well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state," then "the right of the people (not the federal government, not the state, but the PEOPLE) to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
There's 200 years of legal precedent backing that interpretation up. The Supreme Court has ruled a citizen has a right to possess a firearm for self defense. There are limits, like for the 1st Amendment, but it applies to the PEOPLE, not the STATE or FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
Even in liberal New York, if someone threatens me with deadly force, I can respond in kind.
jody
(26,624 posts)It would be redundant if the Second Amendment was narrowly for the militia addressed in the cited clauses.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)nt
napkinz
(17,199 posts)A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
The gun owners of the day were expected to drill every month with the local militia. Granted, drill rarely included actual shooting. Lead balls were damn expensive. (So were the guns themselves). In fact, some of it included plenty of beer and food...
Our modern Court, has in my view, eviscerated the well regulated requirement with Heller.
In the modern day this drilling requirement in the Amendment describes the State Guard to a damn T. Yes, they drill once a month, like the original militias, and due to current requirements, two weeks a year.
The founders originally did not even want to have a core of professional soldiers, because of the abuses by royal forces at the end of the Colonial period. There were debates back and forth, even after the Bill of rights on the need for an army. The Navy was settled before even independence was achieved and the Marines soon after. But the army, the debate was settled in 1812. You might remember the US got well, invaded.
Regardless, for a good while, you could argue all the way to the civil war, state militias pretty much were made up of locals, and there were not that many, mostly rifle and shotgun owners. They started to become more professional after the civil war.
We need to go back to that well regulated...that means armed forces and police. Private citizens should be licensed. And as I said in a few other places, all civilian guns, once it is practical, must receive smart gun technology, to literally match them to shooter. Look into that, once the technology is mature it will be a technological solution that makes sense.
I know the other argument those who love to argue intent of founders but know jack shit of this history like to claim that "being necessary to the security of a free state," mean to prevent the rise of tyranny. Well bubba, you and your AR -15 will do none to a modern Army. Now asymmetrical warfare does, but the Michigan Militia and a lot of our gungeoners like to pretend you can fight Uncle Sam and win in a stand up fight...good luck with that fantasy. We will remain out of the line of fire though, thank you very much!
The final clause, often cited by NRA types is this. "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This clause is dependent on the other ones. Your right to bear arms is within a militia, and here is where Heller, in my mind, eviscerated intent. And lord knows we have plenty of letters and other documents from that period.
To be honest, even Madison would have a cow, and Jefferson would eat crow in his fear of regulars, as he called soldiers back then. His precious militia is the modern day guard and he'd have a heck of a time recognizing the RKBA arguments.
In some ways we also need to look at the present. Jefferson was not wedded to these documents like those given by God at Mt Sinai...he was aware they were written by fallible men, white upper crust men, and that future Americans could and should change things to meet their current conditions. In a few of his private letters he even knew slavery was a poison pill, but that is for another day.
Will this happen? A serious look and sensible laws that allow gun owners to be responsible and keep guns, but with sensible gun laws? Right to concealed carry gotta go (got the most part), for example, Unicorns have a better chance of farting in the forest. I hope to be proven wrong.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021986720