BUT NO, WE DON'T HAVE A GUN PROBLEM IN AMERICA

[WilliamPitt]

Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:20 PM - Edit history (3)

NECN is reporting a shooting at an elementary school in Newtown CT.

At an elementary school.

BUT NO, WE DON'T HAVE A FUCKING FA CHRISSAKES GUN PROBLEM IN AMERICA. NOT AT ALL. SECOND AMENDMENT. SPOONS DON'T MAKE YOU FAT.

Associated Press: 27 dead, 20 children.

FUCK YOU.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school.html

(I've had to edit this fucking post all day to keep up with the fucking body count)

[bunnies]

1. This only proves that teachers should be armed!

edit: sp

[Politicub]

44. And the students. Don't forget the students.

I think third grade and onward is a good starting point. I understand that it denies the rights of the kindergartners. But see - I support some limits!

[bunnies]

65. Fuck it. Lets start in the womb.

We dont want to deprive the fetuses of their god-given rights do we? Think of what great shots they'll be by the time theyre five! Gun training books-on-tape piped right into the womb.

[Politicub]

85. Good idea - Put microphones in the womb so the NRA can provide prenatal safety training, too

Safety first, babies!!!

[bunnies]

104. Taa-daa! Gun problem solved.

The "Politicubunnies Firearm Womb Protection & Safety Act". You KNOW it would SAIL through the house!

[Politicub]

113. Done! If only they had asked us to fix the fiscal cliff!

[bunnies]

124. lmao!

Lets call them.

[SheilaT]

196. Just think of the possibilities.

What with mandatory invasive procedures for a woman wanting an abortion, and prenatal gun training, it will become economically feasible for a woman to rent ad space for the nine months.

Do we have an irony glyph?

[Shadowflash]

71. yup.

The problem, obviously, isn't TOO MANY guns, it's not ENOUGH guns.

If all the elementary school kids had been packing heat, this would have been nipped in the bud before it happened.


Obviously.

[bulloney]

261. I think the Michigan legislature this week had a bill allowing firearms in schools

to go along with their right to work, abortion restriction and other RW agenda bills.

[Shadowflash]

307. They do.

And, as a Michigan resident, I really hate the teabagger orgy that's going on now in the lame duck session. They know it's now or never and are making the best of it.

[backscatter712]

114. That's right! If a shooter started a rampage in a preschool,

he'd be facing down 20 armed three-year-olds raising their Glocks in righteous self-defense!

What could possibly go wrong?

[JDPriestly]

92. Start a movement. That guns belong only in certain places might soon be obvious

even to the biggest advocates of guns being carried at ballgames and shopping malls. (I'm being sarcastic. Don't want anyone to mistake that.)

Maybe if their child had to go to face a seventh-grade teacher with a gun next time he throws a paper wad at some poor girl, a few gun-fanatics might rethink their views.

[bunnies]

106. A few might. No doubt.

But I can imagine just as many saying "well, thatll teach ya for throwing the paper!"

[BigDemVoter]

240. I know you're being sarcastic. . .

But I'm just WAITING for some gun nut to suggest just that! Just like they did in Colorado after the cinema shootings during Dark Knight. . .

[Iggo]

2. Guns are more important than people.

[mikeysnot]

3. 5, 4, 3, 2 , 1

and the gun fetish nuts go nuts...

[otohara]

51. Disposable American's

to the tune of thousands are no biggie as long as gun nuts get to keep their bad ass weapons.

[tblue]

110. I blame every damned Gun Lover for every gun death.

Fuck every last one of them. This blood is on their hands.

[hifiguy]

183. There is, I think, a pretty clear distinction between

ordinary gun owners who may like to hunt or target shoot and the crazy fetishists who have to have dozens, if not hundreds, of firearms and place their ability to do so above common sense and the safety of their fellow citizens. And I have never owned a firearm in my life.

[SheilaT]

198. Except that I don't notice the

ordinary gun owners coming out in any numbers to say there is something wrong with the crazy fetishists. If they did, I'd respect them a lot more, but they seem to remain totally silent on the issue, even when things like this occur.

So yeah, I'm willing to extend guilt to every single gun owner in this country.

[hifiguy]

224. You do have a point.

The situation is analogous to mainstream christians who refuse to stand up and denounce the mentally-challenged fundamentalpatients.

[friendly_iconoclast]

248. I blame every damned Car Lover for every traffic death.

Fuck every last one of them. This blood is on their hands.

[kurtzapril4]

260. Didn't take long for that stupid argument to be trotted out. n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

262. Not stupid at all. Are you and I to blame for child pornography and botnets?

I'm what you'd call a "computer lover"- I've modded everyone I've owned,
and even built a couple.

By the logic I parodied, I'm responsible for some guy in Kazakhstan who traffics in stolen
credit card numbers.

Look, there's a horrible tragedy that we're all trying to process and emotions are running high
- but blaming those not responsible is like blaming every non-teetotaling driver
for all drunk driving deaths.

[rustydog]

299. Nice try, But the NRA always says the answer is more Concealed carry

their hands are soiled with the blood of these children because the response from these intellectually retarded asswipes has been: "Gun control? use both hands!" "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will own guns!!!!" 2nd Amendment! 2nd Amendment!!!


Fuck THAT, we need to discuss gun control, NOW.

[Warren Stupidity]

273. and there it is.

[ThoughtCriminal]

282. At least to drive car

You have to:

1 - Get a drivers license
2 - The vehicle has to be registered
3 - In most states you have to get insurance
4 - There are strict laws governing the use of your vehicle

If you misuse the vehicle, your driver license and even your vehicle can be taken away.

[question everything]

142. Thought that was the countdown for the locking

since it "belongs" in the gun forum (or whatever the name is..)

[JimDandy]

274. DU might not need a Gun Forum anymore

if these assault weapon mass executions keep making the Latest Breaking News every week. Incredibly sad - 20 KIDS murdered enmass!

[L0oniX]

135. The MIC agrees with you. n/t

[Care Acutely]

264. You inspired me. This is on my FB right now.

[Iggo]

268. Excellent!

I'm sharing that with the usual suspects at my office right now.

Thanks.

[Care Acutely]

270. No - Thank YOU.

It is the perfect, concise embodiment of what has gone wrong and the answer to what has gone wrong.

We MUST re-establish the idea that PEOPLE are MORE IMPORTANT than GUNS.

Any assertion to the contrary is twisted and unhinged, and must be recognized as such.

[AmyDeLune]

302. Stealing & reposting on FB---

in hopes that my gun-loving cousin (who has been posting pro-NRA crap all day) will see it and realize how inappropriate her posts are. The whole "more guns would solve everything!!1!!1!" meme was old 20 years ago.

[Care Acutely]

313. Great! Spread it far & wide. Nt

[upaloopa]

4. But but we got to wait for the facts

Let's don't make any rash judgments. Only criminals do bad things with guns and with more guns there is less gun violence. The price of freedom and all that. Just let me pull a few more statistics out of my ass.

[sadbear]

5. But they're just tools.

Like hammers.

[WaitWut]

17. Who the NRA?

Or it's members?

[sadbear]

18. They're a box of hammers.

[billh58]

93. With the smart ones

taken out.

[gcomeau]

21. Sarcasm?

If not, that would be "tools" designed to fling lead pellet at extreme velocities through people's bodies in order to kill them.

Not blunt objects designed to hammer nails through wood that could be misappropriated to smash somebody with, just as easily as you could use a rock, or a pipe, or anything else. Making a hammer does not result in any increase in the available level of lethality of anyone with murderous intent. Dumping a few hundred million firearms into the general population *does*.

[backscatter712]

164. Guns don't kill people...

Bullets kill people.

The gun just sends the bullet on its way!

[99Forever]

6. It's almost daily now.

The new normal, NRA style.

Send your kids to school to get shot by one of their gun fetish psychos.

Nice.

[byeya]

54. A "+" for this

[gollygee]

98. It might actually be

Not specifically schools, but shoot-outs. Workplace shootouts don't get on the national news anymore. We've had two within a mile of me in the past few years, and I live in a quiet part of Michigan. Both were domestic violence cases, and neither involved children, but both were shoot-outs. There was another one at a dentist office a few years ago not far away too.

Is it just where I live or is this getting more common everywhere?

[vduhr]

202. More common everywhere.

When there are shootings almost every week, sadly, I would call that all too common. In my state, just the other day, the schools were on high alert because someone had posted on Facebook that they were going to shoot up a school on 12/12/12. Prior to that, there were two other incidents over the past few months where students, in middle-schools, were planning on a shooting.

[reteachinwi]

218. Daily

Even a man as flawed as Lyndon Johnson could say "We must either learn to love each other, or go in to the darkness..." Darkness, our old friend, is upon us.

[XtopherXtopher]

244. +1,000

this should be so far from normal that we lose the words to describe it...

[GeorgeGist]

7. Knife-wielding man injures 22 children in China

http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story


BEIJING (Reuters) - A knife-wielding man slashed 22 children and an adult at an elementary school in central China on Friday, state media reported, the latest in a series of attacks on schoolchildren in the country.

[sufrommich]

9. What an asinine post. nt

[WilliamPitt]

10. ...and that's the 352,998th time this shit has been posted.

"President Kennedy Assassinated By Sword-Wielding Loner"

"Martin Luther King Jr. Laid Low By Meat Cleaver"

"Senator Robert Kennedy Murdered By Axe In California"

...said no headline ever.

Guns kill people with almost breathtaking ease. It has happened so many times in the last few years that it boggles the mind that it even has to be argued any more.

Fuck your argument. Shove that shit where it belongs.

[Logical]

49. LOL, posting 'fuck' a lot does not help make your point!

[WilliamPitt]

52. Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.

Fucking gunfire fucking erupted in a fucking elementary school near a bunch of fucking children.

That fucking sucks.

Your fucking concern over my fucking choice of language is fucking absurd.

Under the fucking circumstances.

[bunnies]

77. .....

[Little Star]

103. +1

[RC]

112. Only a +1? Fuck no, give it a +1000!

That was funny. Yeah, it was!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

109. fucking A!

[ET Awful]

159. I was gonna fuckin' say that.

Fuck!

[heaven05]

133. please

ignore people who might be offended at your word choice explaining your righteous rage. Maybe they are christians or something and I agree with your rage and choice of words. This has to stop somehow. I don't know how, short of outright immediate ban on weapon sales which is not feasible with three hundred million guns floating around out there. And how many criminals own part of that three hundred million? I'd hate to be weaponless in a dangerous society. No one has the right to harm me because they want to rob me or might hate the melanin in my skin and on and on....this is a vicious, dangerous country/world. So what's the answer.? Anyone?

[A Simple Game]

230. There in lies the problem. Too many people don't understand the problem.

Criminals aren't doing these things. Name one that was a criminal before they did the mass murders.

No you aren't going to get rid of the criminals' guns, not right off, but the criminals aren't going into elementary schools to rob the kids.

These are the neighbor that is the perfect neighbor, so quiet, so helpful, until they snap. The only protection from these people is to limit the availability of guns and ammunition.

[heaven05]

237. i

can agree with this, easily. But there still has to be something unhinged here.

[missingthebigdog]

157. That is the most fucking awesome fucking post ever!!

[sellitman]

167. I FUCKING agree.

[callous taoboy]

205. Fucking A William Pitt! +1,000,000

Just took my second graders to lunch before seeing this news. Should I have to wear a fucking pistol on my hip? Is that what these assholes think would be a solution?

[Brigid]

222. You win.

That is all.

[rbrnmw]

236. +100,000,000

[MattSh]

249. Maybe...

Maybe the fucking gun nuts should use their fucking guns to shoot their fucking nuts off.

[smirkymonkey]

290. I'll second that.

If only. Nothing would make me happier.

[tclambert]

286. There was this soldier talking about a beautiful fucking girl . . .

"Fuck! She was fucking hot. She was so fucking beautiful. I could hardly fucking believe it when she agreed to go the fuck out with me. We had a great fucking time. It was fucking wonderful. Fucking movie. Fucking dinner. Fucking drinking and dancing. Then we went the fuck back to her fucking place. And we had intercourse."

[SalmonChantedEvening]

311. Fuck yeah.

[BobbyBoring]

314. FUCKIN A!

[mikeysnot]

64. Gun fucking nuts

go fucking nuts with their fucking guns.... nuts.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

83. Detectives McNulty and Bunk have a message for you.

(NSFW)

[eaglesfanintn]

156. I thought of that scene as well

[patrice]

126. Right, we don't have time to have sex with one another; we need to look at this problem.

[LanternWaste]

146. And dead school children does not help the counterpoint...

And dead school children does not help the counterpoint...

[Ikonoklast]

215. And your choice of username has no bearing upon your responses, either.

Point...go find one.

[intaglio]

246. Being a smartarse about Gun Violence does make a point

and that is that you are an emotional eunuch.

[dchill]

101. +1.

Fuck.

[vduhr]

207. I agree.

When people compare a weapon that has to be used close up and can kill one or two people, to a weapon that can be shot from a long distance multiple times, and several of those can be used in one shooting, it makes me want to puke.

[upaloopa]

12. Your point?

If you are using that to support gun rights I wish I could piss on it.

[RetroLounge]

24. Right on time

RL

[frylock]

30. get some new material..

how often has that happened? has it happened twice in a one week period? unfuckingbelievable bullshit.

[Politicub]

50. Well that settles everything. Lets dismiss decades of gun violence because a crazy person

In china stabs people.

Its all the same. You have opened mine eyes.

[Brainstormy]

128. Uh, two years ago.

In China. And nobody died. (But yes, I do know that you're being sarcastic.)

[laundry_queen]

181. And if that crazy asshole would've had access to a gun, there would've been hundreds dead

and that is why it's a piss poor, and brain dead, argument.

[sanatanadharma]

115. Well, obviously the Capitalists need to outsource more gun factories to China...

...that way China too can stop mass violence with more guns.

[BobbyBoring]

315. Now there's an idea!

imagine what 10s of millions of over worked, under paid Chinese can do!

[LanternWaste]

143. Was this merely an aberration or a consistent event that happens weekly?

Was this merely an aberration or a consistent event that happens weekly?

[billh58]

279. The Gungeon crowd

argues that it is a recurring aberration that is within acceptable limits in order to protect 2nd Amendment Constitutional rights. If guns were not available, these events would occur just as often with knives, spoons, hammers, pitch forks, lawn furniture, planes, trains, and automobiles.

The Right to Kill and Bury Americans (RKBA) is absolute and has absolutely nothing to do with NRA reality.

[JDPriestly]

144. I note that no deaths were reported. That's the big difference.

Had the guy been wielding some sort of automatic gun instead, we would read about the numbers of dead lying around.

The Chinese story is not totally believable. You would think that after the tenth or eleventh person to be slashed, people, even children, would run fast enough to get away. It's much harder to get away from a man holding a gun than from a man holding a knife.

[liberalhistorian]

161. Don't you have some metal phallic

symbols to play with, clean, load or something?

[morningfog]

254. Not one death. Point proven. Fucking christ, you people.

[ThoughtCriminal]

283. 22 injured vs 26 DEAD

Understand the difference?

[Skittles]

289. you are SOOOOO fucking pathetic

[_ed_]

308. You are a bad person

How many died in the knife attack, asshole?

Do you get paid to shill for gun / ammo corporations, or are you just so pathetic and paranoid that you do it for fun?

[sufrommich]

8. THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO TALK ABOUT IT!!

This message has been brought to you by Fox News and Ted Nugent.

[sarisataka]

11. Personally

I am more concerned with the children, hoping all of them have been taken to safety.

[upaloopa]

13. If there was no gun you wouldn't have even heard

anything about those kids.

[WilliamPitt]

16. What the fuck are you talking about?

[upaloopa]

19. People would not have heard of this school today

if there wasn't shooting

[WilliamPitt]

25. Still not following.

I would not have heard of you if you hadn't replied in this thread. What's your point?

[upaloopa]

28. Forget it

[caseymoz]

170. Sorry. You're going to be remembered . . .

. . . for making the dumbest pro-gun argument on this thread.

[upaloopa]

232. I didn't make a pro gun argument.

Someone said they care about the children rather than the gun issue. I meant that that person would not have had to worry about the children if there was no gun there. I guess I said it wrong.
I have had many accounts here since 2001. Will Pitt was the second person to welcome me here. I've had many times when I got mad about what people think I said over the years. I can't change the past only how I feel about it.

[theKed]

58. Choices

Are you dumb, or just wilfully obtuse? Those are your options.

We wouldnt have to be concerned about the safety of those (and other children) if the guns to enact that violence werent readily available.

[Politicub]

94. Let me explain - instead of outdated tv commercials and sky writing,

mass shootings are the most effective way to advertise and market your school or business.

All of the hottest ny ad agencies are jumping on this trend. Chanel is using a mass shooting at Macy's instead of brad Pitt to get people into the store to snatch up the hottest new fragrance. As part of walmart's back to school promotion, 100 shootings in a 100 days is kicking off in Mother's Day. And a lot of state colleges are going to have shooters come to NBA games to attract the best and brightest students.

[still_one]

75. you are wrong. If there was any kind of killing at an elementary school it would have made news

[rhett o rick]

122. Exactly. If the story read, "Multiple people, including children, have been killed [in multiple sta

bbings] at Sandy Hook Elementary School. The number of victims is unclear. Many of the [stabbing victims] took place in a kindergarten classroom, sources said." You are right, it would never have made the news.

Are you series?

[caseymoz]

168. Dumb. A dozen kids stabbed in an elementary school?

Cite one time the "liberal media" buried a story like that.

Your also implying that kids are being killed in other ways at an incredible rate but we're just not hearing about it.

You should rethink your argument.

[byeya]

70. I am pretty sure he's saying some children being shot to death is good publicity for the school.

[Scruffy Rumbler]

190. Hi WilliamPitt,

I think the poster meant that without the guns, there would not have been this shooting. Without the shooting, it would have been just a normal day at the school and none of us would have heard about the school. I hope it was just a poorly worded response to the poster above him.

Peace and thank you for all you post here.

[sarisataka]

26. I fully agree

it might have made regional news since it involved an elementary school. You need a gun involved for national attention.

What I find shocking/sad is
A) our tolerance for non-gun violence
B) how quickly even mass shootings are swept aside (the OR story was down to #3 or lower by noon the next day)
C) how the person who commits the crime, of whatever nature, gets far more attention- and indeed concern- than the actual victims.


We have many violence problems; gun issues are only a small part

[jeff47]

43. We have a higher tolerance for non-gun violence because it's much less likely to be lethal.

It's a lot harder to kill someone via stabbing than shooting. The fact that it's possible to kill someone via stabbing doesn't change that.

Our violence problem is actually far better now than in decades past. For example the murder rate is way down compared to the 70's and 80's. Since that's getting better, how 'bout making it harder for "the crazy" to get exceptionally effective killing devices?

[sarisataka]

67. Homicide is much lower than it has been

but gun or knife, dead is dead- you cannot be more dead.

Since that's getting better, how 'bout making it harder for "the crazy" to get exceptionally effective killing devices?

I do agree. Both sides let rhetoric get in the way and refuse to accept suggestions from the other, even when it is a good idea.

[jeff47]

88. You're ignoring the difficulty of getting to that result

If knives were as effective, we wouldn't be issuing guns to our soldiers - they cost a lot more, require a lot more maintenance, and require resupply of bullets. Knives would require occasional sharpening. Yet the idea of handing out swords instead of M-4s is ridiculous.

The fact that you can kill with either doesn't change that it's much easier to use a gun.

[sarisataka]

100. For many reasons

both- physical and psychological- it is easier to kill with a gun than many other weapons.

To solely focus on the weapon is only looking at half of the problem. The idea that 'if we get rid of guns none of this will happen' is false. These deranged people would still cause mayhem somehow. Some might use knives, some might make bombs.
I have no issue with a legitimate discussion of keeping guns out of the wrong hands. Yes that means having to listen to 'NRA talking points' about 'assault weapons' because talking point or not, a person needs to have enough knowledge of a subject to craft an effective law. Also being willing to engage in such a discussion will bring moderate gun owners to the table, reducing extremist support e.g. NRA-ILA.

While that discussion takes place, promote research targeting the psychological causes of violence, especially spree killers, and how to mitigate the activating cues.

Being that this is a democratic board I think we are all aware of the social factors that lead to violence and do not need to further explore them, just continue working to correct them.

[jeff47]

116. The point is reducing the number of guns reduces the number of killings

Because less effective weapons will be used.

It's really not that complicated.

Some might use knives

Crazy guy busts into a movie theater with a knife. Just how many people can he stab? Not many - running becomes a quite effective defense. But he can shoot a whole bunch. That's the point of restricting guns - so that his stabbings kill less people than his shootings. The goal is not for no one to ever die. The goal is to reduce the number of people who do die.

some might make bombs

Again, much more difficult than a shooting - bombs are actually kinda tricky to make, especially in a way where buying the materials doesn't arouse suspicion. While a trigger is very simple to pull.

[sarisataka]

129. Although we likely agree it is false equivalency

there is the story again of a knife wielder injured 22. OKC and Iraq shows that bombs can be made quite effectively, even in restricted environments.

reducing the number of guns reduces the number of killings

is contradicted by your statement earlier.

I guess I can sum up my stance by saying I am against GUN CONTROL, but am willing to back effective Gun Control.

[jeff47]

223. What part of "fewer" do you not understand?

Fewer is not 0.

Again, fewer guns mean fewer deaths. Because less effective weapons will be used. Which is exactly what I've been saying this entire sub-thread. There is no contradiction.

I guess I can sum up my stance by saying I am against GUN CONTROL, but am willing to back effective Gun Control.

Well, you are insisting people are saying what they are not saying. You're laying fantastic groundwork for being ignored when it come to gun control.

Now, I don't particularly mind if all of the gun control legislation is written by people who hate guns. You, on the other hand, might want to get involved in that effort instead of arguing about what people didn't say.

[sarisataka]

233. Good idea

You, on the other hand, might want to get involved in that effort instead of arguing about what people didn't say.

I have to go to Sen. Franken's office this afternoon. Maybe I can get elevator speech in.

[RC]

140. What part of having so many readily available guns around escalates the violence, eludes you?

We would not have so much violence if it we not so easy to do so because of the easy accessibility and ease of use of guns. Guns make it too easy. Any other way takes planing and forethought. Gun violence, not so much.
It is far harder to walk up to someone and push some steel into their chest cavity. It take time to stab one person, pullout the knife, stab another... By that time words gets around and when you are trying to pull the knife out of the second body, you are likely to be overpowered. The same cannot be said about a gun. For starts, you do not even need to get close and it is entirely possible to take out one person for each cartridge in the clip.

[sarisataka]

153. What part do you want clarified

We would not have so much violence if it we not so easy to do so because of the easy accessibility and ease of use of guns

Violent people will be violent, they won't suddenly turn vegan without a gun. I agreed guns can enhance the situation.

Any other way takes planing and forethought.

No one is ever killed on impulse by any other weapon? Might want to fact check that

It is far harder to walk up to someone and push some steel into their chest cavity.

Yes it is. But it happens quite frequently

By that time words gets around and when you are trying to pull the knife out of the second body, you are likely to be overpowered

Like all those people stopped the man who pushed the guy onto the subway? Sadly the norm is to not intervene until it directly affects you.

The same cannot be said about a gun.

In a break from the norm, that is exactly what happened in Rep. Grifford's case.

[Blue_Tires]

214. Seriously??

So you're honestly saying these kids being shot garners more media attention than they would if they had been bombed, gassed, or killed by arson??

[sarisataka]

220. No, those would have been even bigger news

But when did you last see a lead story about a school stabbing on a major network? Believe me, it is not because they do not happen...

[NRaleighLiberal]

125. .

[WinkyDink]

298. NS, S. What's your point, that the school loves the publicity now?

[Little Star]

14. Jesus H Christ, there's some sick fucks out there! The most stunning part to me is...

that this was a elementary school not a high school. Those poor kids.

[sufrommich]

22. It's a K-4 school, there's not a kid in there who

is older than 9. Welcome to your God given right to lethal weapons,kids!

[WilliamPitt]

27. TV reporter said it might have been two parents shooting it out.

Still only a rumor.

[shraby]

57. If that's true Will, neither parent should never have custody of children again.

[Little Star]

32. Breaks my heart.

[bunnies]

39. Seriously.

It takes a special kind of sociopath to terrorize children like this. Sick fuck.

[Laurian]

15. Fuck. We need some politicians with some courage.

Do what's right for once, not what's politically expedient.

[Lizzie Poppet]

87. To do what, specifically?

I hesitate to participate in a gun thread right after a shooting/media circus, since hysteria and anger tend to outweigh rational discussion by about ten-to-one, but this point is too important to let lie. If prevention of spree killings is to be any sort of national priority,* and some form of additional gun control is proposes as part of the solution, just what specific legislation do people propose, and in what specific way would it effect the problem?

* I think it should also be pointed out that while they are high-profile and emotionally powerful, spree killings represent a tine portion of the toll of homicide in this country. The death toll from mot any one of these horrific incidents represents the norm in some areas. Those murders don't seem to get much attention.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

158. Why do you hesitate? We have a mass shooting every other week or so.

May as well speak up now, because there's not going to be much of a lull in the action.

Here's my entry for your request for specific legislation: require handgun owners to keep their weapons in an armory somewhere, and check them out when they want to shoot targets. Penalty for possessing a handgun illegally (at home, away from the armory): 20 years. Penalty for using an illegal handgun in the commission of a crime: 50 years.

[Tumbulu]

169. Good start

I want to add must have liability insurance- penalty for not funding 5 yrs.

A licensing system similar to motor vehicles. If one drives a semi one needs a much more difficult to attain license than a light vehicle such as a car.
Penalty for not having appropriate license for firearm 5 yrs.

[Lizzie Poppet]

227. Why? Just look at most of the threads on this.

Emotions running high on both sides, with only a minority offering anything like a useful suggestion or observation. I appreciate you being an exception! I don't happen to agree with your proposal, but that's not the point. That you made it (and in a civil manner) is encouraging.

Personally, I'm concerned that our approach as a society to gun-related violence is going to be so strongly influenced by spree killings. Despite what seems like tremendous frequency, in reality they represent a very small fraction of firearms-related homicide. That doesn't mean that trying to curtail them isn't an important or valuable thing to do...but simple arithmetic would indicate that the priority should be elsewhere. As a society, we tend to be horribly blase' about "ordinary" murders. In part (and here at DU, it would be rare, I'd think), that dismissal occurs because these killings occur among "those people" - read: poor people, people with brown skin, etc. Too many people see news of another series of gang-related killings and "tsk tsk" to themselves before clicking through to the entertainment page. But when it happens to people who look like their neighbors or to (white) kids, it's OMG! SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!

Ah, well...I think I need to step away from the 'puter for a bit. This whole thing is depressing the hell out of me. Thanks for your civil, cogent reply.

[L0oniX]

137. Like maybe end the wars? Quit teaching people to kill others in other countries?

[The Straight Story]

20. And a muslim problem

Cause from the news I hear those muslims have attacked us before and want to kill us.

Therefore, we need to watch em all and regulate them more.

As well as each other. We are all the enemy and the only ones who can save us are rich old white guys we elect (and they would be the only ones we should trust with guns).

We have a violence problem in the US.

[theKed]

68. *coughcough*falseequivalency*cough*

[The Straight Story]

84. Selling fear, and people are buying, same thing (nt)

[Hoyt]

23. Price we pay to allow almost any yahoo to walk around with a gun or amass a cache of lethal weapons.

Hope kids are safe. But it's time to do something about this and quit yielding to NRA -- whose leadership includes likes of Grover Norquist, Teddy Nugent, John Bolton, Ollie North, gun manufaturers/retailers/profiteers, etc. -- and those free-riders who profess not to be NRA members but benefit from their lobbying for more guns in more places, stand your ground type laws, etc.

Also time to change perception of guns in our society -- it worked for cigarettes.

[sarisataka]

35. Thanks Hoyt...

for remembering the kids.

[theKed]

76. Is the Nuge

Dead or in jail yet? He promised...

[ReRe]

102. They don't keep promises...

...dammit.

[Dustlawyer]

29. But if everyone of those 1st graders is armed...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

31. But those kids could just have easily been run over by cars, don't you know?

And cue the Morlocks in 3, 2, 1.....

[WilliamPitt]

34. Post #7

[lapislzi]

33. ZOMG, spare a prayer for my co-worker

Has 2 kids in that school. He flew out of here faster than I've ever seen a human move.

A fucking elementary school. Fuck fuckity fuck.

[sarisataka]

37. You have my prayers

and those of my Aunt who has been a nun for 75 years. That is as close to direct as I can get.

added: My children attend a parochial school. I called and they are going to stop everything and say a prayer for the students and staff.
Please let us know...

[1gobluedem]

40. Yikes

I can't imagine the fear and terror running through his mind.

[bunnies]

46. !!!

OMG Thats awful!! ((((( good vibes ))))) for your co-worker. I cant imagine what he must be going through.

[barbtries]

74. oh wow

please let us know they're okay.

[lapislzi]

86. No word yet.

Courant reporting that children have been injured.

I feel sick. One of my colleagues is sobbing in the next room and all the moms are clustered around someone's monitor.

I feel sick.

[barbtries]

172. so sorry.

i'm seeing mixed reports, i think i'll look for a live stream.

i don't want even one child to be hurt or killed! not just your co-worker's kids.

[sufrommich]

81. I can only imagine the terror of getting a phone call

that there is someone shooting at your kid's school. Good God.

[Brickbat]

120. When I was working on a daily newspaper's news desk several years ago, we got a call that there had

been shots fired at the high school in my town (30 miles away). My children were at the elementary school at the time (two miles from the high school), but all I could think about as we chased it down was that someone had gotten it wrong, that it was actually at the elementary school, and this is how news of a tragedy look as it's beginning to break. I have never felt anything like those 10 minutes, ever.

It turned out that someone had shot a BB gun at the school over the weekend, and there was damage to one of the windows, and someone had heard about it and misunderstood and called the paper first thing. So, whew. But I will never forget those 10 minutes.

[sufrommich]

123. I totally understand, my reaction would

have been the same.

[bunnies]

186. Any word yet?

Just heard 18 children were killed.

edit to increase the number

[lapislzi]

203. No, this is horrible.

It just keeps getting worse. We are a small office. Everyone here is a basket case.

[bunnies]

206. omg. You must all be wreck.

Just know you're all in my thoughts... Its so horrible.

edit: please keep us posted: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021978255

[barbtries]

208. still no word?

i'm far away and i can hardly work, can only imagine what it's like for everyone at your workplace.

[Tsiyu]

266. Apparently the co-workers six-year-old boy

was one of those killed.

Beautiful baby slaughtered.....




Edit to add: post #51 here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021978255

According to Stinky, another Duer has family there.

[barbtries]

267. oh no

[Tsiyu]

271. I know

[seabeyond]

212. this so has me in tears.... good thoughts for him, but the fear..... nt

[susanr516]

228. Praying for your co-worker and his children

Words fail me. Damn, so sick and so heartbreaking.

[wryter2000]

234. Prayers for him and his kids

[freshwest]

245. Tears! Sending vibes, but I feel so helpless!

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Hey will, we cannot talk of guns while a gun crime

And mass shooting is happening.

You know better!

[Politicub]

38. Guns are awesome!!!! More more more!!!!

Guns don't kill people!
It's the liberal's fault because they don't support students carrying guns!
Guns are safe and soft as a bunny rabbit!
But what about the hunters????!!!!!
You can never own too many!
There's no such thing as an assault weapon!
Automatic weapons are peachy keen!
The NRA isn't partisan! Stop saying that!
The nerve! Talking about gun control as they're counting the bodies!

This is a public service for the gun right absolutists and extremists. I'm posting your excuses and rationales so you don't have to.

You're welcome.

[RomneyLies]

41. We DO NOT have a gun problem in America.

No longer a gun problem.

It has escalated to a gun CRISIS.

Problem is just not close to describing the issue.

[ReRe]

121. Ding Ding Ding

CRISIS is the correct term. No longer a "problem".

[AndyA]

189. +1

So incredibly senseless. I know first hand what those families are going through.

All of those kids who were killed, all of their friends and families...everyone involved...they all had rights, too. Were their rights protected? No, they never are in instances like this.

The right to live your life should be supreme over all other rights. Without life, nothing matters.

So incredibly sad. (Again.) How many more will die?

[bobclark86]

194. And here I thought...

We had an asshole crisis... Maybe we should try working on our poverty crisis, mental health crisis and other crises before blaming the tools?

But since the absolutely first reply hit on "gun control," let's look at what could have prevented this:

An "assault weapons ban" -- the only bit of "gun control" in the Democratic Party platform -- would not have stopped this. Why? It was a handgun. Besides, Connecticut already has an AWB in place.

It's a handgun, which in Connecticut requires a state permit to even purchase, let alone carry. So either the shooter has a license (which means they have no criminal background) OR they got it illegally. Short of a complete ban -- which is unconstitutional -- there is no law that could prevent this.

We don't know about the shooters yet. As far as mass shootings go, it's going to be a white guy, under 50, who does not have a criminal record. The best thing that could be done is strengthening background checks by making states report mental health and drug offense information (assuming the person was treated for mental illness or convicted of a drug offense).

Again, the BEST way of dealing with this is to work on the underlying social issues -- which is where Democrats have the edge because more of them (us) care.

[RomneyLies]

209. Do you know what the two most IGNORED words in the second amendment are?

WELL REGULATED

[spanone]

269. tools? yea, fucking tools that kill.

[SheilaT]

219. I dunno, maybe

we should be calling it a gun catastrophe?

Problem is such a mild word. Even crisis doesn't feel strong enough to me.

[Logical]

42. Jesus, for the millionth damn time, what is your fucking solution....

To remove 300 million legal guns from gunowners in the United States. I want a real fucking answer! Not just complaining.

[bunnies]

47. 300 million?! Holy Shit!

Is that a real statistic?

[Logical]

53. Yes, and a million more sold a month! n-t

[Politicub]

62. Then we should put an immediate halt to sales, don't you think?

Seems kind of excessive to me.

Won't stop gun violence right away, but it will reduce it.

[Logical]

163. No way to do it! No politician will touch banning guns! n-t

[caseymoz]

185. If this keeps up, public opinion will change.

Parents tend to go crazy when there's a threat to their children. There's only so much more of this people will take before it's not going matter what the Constitution says, and people are going to consider the Founders to be mistaken on the point. Then politicians will come along as reformers. Remember slavery was blessed by the Constitution, too.

You're right, though, you can't confiscate all the guns in this country. You can control access to ammunition.

It's really in the interests of the gun rights people to solve this problem. Maybe you should come up with suggestions.

[Logical]

193. No way at this point. We can't keep meth off the street and it is illegal! n-t

[caseymoz]

257. Which isn't relevant

Because my point was it doesn't matter if it works or not. I said if this keeps up, public opinion will change and something will be done regardless of the Constitution, regardless of whether it "works" or not. Parents go a crazy when they feel children are threatened. Ask NORML about what happened to marijuana laws in the '70s when people began to notice pot being marketed to kids, when marijuana was decriminalized in over thirty states.

People aren't going to take "Oh, it won't work," as an argument soon. How long has the drug war not worked? Unless the pro-gun people can figure out a good way to solve this problem while perhaps protecting some gun rights, they will have a bad solution to the problem imposed on them. Because if parents organize against them, the pro-gun people will be in a minority. And don't tell me the laws won't make any difference, pro-gun people wouldn't be fighting against more restrictions if they didn't. They might be ineffective, but they make a difference to those who want guns.

I'm not saying that as an anti-gun person, but if you're pro-gun you better come up with a halfway decent solution to this. And if you can't, be prepared to lose big within the decade if this keeps up.

[Bake]

259. Exactly. +10000000000000000000000000000000

Bake

[King_Klonopin]

303. Until a death effects them in some way, or they become the target and start dying

[bunnies]

97. wow.

kinda hard to un-ring that bell. Thnx for the info.

[Hoyt]

89. Yes, while we sit around doing nothing over next decade, another 100 million will be produced and

acquired by gun cultists. The problem/crisis will just get worse the longer we wait.

In the meantime, more and more yahoos are walking around in public with a gun or two stuffed down their pants and a growing cache of weapons at home.

[bunnies]

118. I just cant get past these numbers.

I dont know how many guns I thought there were in the US... I guess I never really thought about a 'number'. Now Im actually kinda surprised there arent *more* shootings like this in this country. How fucking sad is that?!

[Hoyt]

131. Fortunately, less than half the population owns even one. A lot of folks have a bunch.

What is worrisome to me is the number of folks who are arming up and carrying in pubic like we live is a war zone or something. I understand why Tbaggers are into that. When we see folks right here on DU who admit to "practicing" with targets that resemble humans, it is clear we have a problem.

[bunnies]

139. I used to own two guns about 20 years ago...

We lived in Vermont (in the middle of nowhere) and shot at hay bales with playing cards attached. I cant imagine shooting at a living thing or anything resembling one. I'd think there would be some level of desensitization. That's disturbing.

[godai]

48. Either reinterpret 2nd amendment or, repeal it.n/t

[Politicub]

56. Tax ammo like cigarettes. Actually, more than cigarettes.

Make ammunition unaffordable. It won't make an instant impact, but the stores will dry up as the mass shooters use up the supply shooting people in shopping malls and schools.

[Logical]

72. And a man wanting to shoot up a place will worry about money for ammo???

[Politicub]

78. I don't give a fuck about your stupid anecdote. Do something "logical" and

Stop making excuses for murderers.

[godai]

82. They will be less likely to practice their deadly hobby. n/t

[apocalypsehow]

281. There is a tax on ammo right now: it should be increased to $100 a cartridge. That means the

average cost of a box of ammo like the "law abiding gun owner" used today would cost more than $5,000.

There should also be a "double-value" excise tax levied on all knew firearms purchases for any handgun or assault rifle; that would push firearms of the sort used perpetuate this massacre today into a cost range that would be unaffordable for most people.

Eventually, we'll have a complete handgun and assault rifle ban, but that will take decades. In the meantime, we should make it as expensive a hobby as we can for our "law abiding gun owners" to assert their masculinity by strutting through the local Wal Mart with a pistol perched in their pants.

[the devil]

300. I have a better idea than taxing ammo.

Don't allow it for sale at all. There is absolutely nothing in the Second Amendment that guarantees the right acquire, purchase, or sell ammunition.

One of the popular gun nut magazines is called Guns and Ammo, which means that they themselves recognize that guns and ammunition are two different things. And if they're different, and one is guaranteed in the Second Amendment and the other is not even mentioned...

Get rid of the ammo. Nobody needs it except hunters, police officers, and the military.

[Politicub]

301. Interesting! Haven't thought about it like that

I do think there's something with limiting or eliminating access to ammunition.

[WilliamPitt]

60. You said 'fuck.'

[Logical]

61. Yes, to ridicule your use of it!

[WilliamPitt]

69. Clever.

Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:10 PM - Edit history (1)

I almost didn't get it.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

73. How about things like uniform federal gun laws, for starters?

Proper registration, waiting periods, mandatory courses before one becomes licensed and each time one renews his/her license, background checks, mental health screening, etc.

Of course, any meaningful gun control reform is immediately demonized by the NRA and similar groups, so all we end up is insanity over and over and over again.

That, and piss-poor analogies.

[Tumbulu]

175. Yes and liability insurance

Good start.

Clearly way overdue.

[theKed]

79. Making them illegal

goes a long way towards reducing 300 million legal guns.

[gcomeau]

107. First...

...require anyone who wants to own a gun to be licensed to own one. That means safety training that they actually have standards for and that they have to actually pass. That means background checks. And that means it has to apply in ALL fucking circumstances. I don't give a fuck who you're buying the weapon from or where you're buying it. No getting around the requirements by buying from some private collector when you're unlicensed and doing some under the table cash deal. Get caught doing it, go to fucking prison. BOTH the buyer and the seller.

Second. Enforce the regs. Spot check people with these licenses. Find a gun unsafely stored? Find that they cannot account for weapons they are on record as having purchased? License gone. Guns gone. Fine and/or jail time.

Hold people properly responsible for their conduct if they want to own dangerous freaking weapons. If someone stole a gun from you it better have been by cutting through your gun safe with a fucking blowtorch, not by picking it out of the drawer beside your damn bed.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

229. Agreed --

That is a great start.

[patrice]

117. Begin with MENTAL HEALTH PARITY in ALL health insurance coverage. nt

[Logical]

162. I 100% agree! n-t

[patrice]

173. If we don't get people to address the ROOT CAUSES of their problems - themselves - stuff

like gun violence just morphs into something else.

[L0oniX]

138. +1

[KamaAina]

145. 300 million?! That's almost as many guns as there are Americans.

Soon we can change our motto from 'E Pluribus Unum" to "More Guns Than People".

[DisgustipatedinCA]

160. excuse us for complaining, but the object of your desire is murdering children

Deal with it, or go elsewhere. I cannot see that "what you want" is of any real importance to anyone.

[Logical]

204. I have no tie to guns! I just want to know how you stop a lone nut when....

Guns are everywhere? Don't take it personal. It is a serious question!

[abelenkpe]

195. I'd applaud that.

[SheilaT]

221. So let's do it.

Let's absolutely ban most guns, require strict licensing of guns and the owners. Licenses need to be renewed every year. We do it for cars and drivers, we can do it for guns and gun owners.

[lastlib]

239. Here's mine: Turn 'em all in tomorrow. Every last damn one.

if you hold back so much as an empty shell-case, death penalty.


Now, if you don't like mine, come up with a better one.

[friendly_iconoclast]

250. If only 99% get turned in, then what?

Gonna declare martial law?

[lastlib]

291. read what i said....

If you keep anything back, death penalty.

If you don't like my plan, come up with your own--lead, follow, or get the f*ck out of the way.

[friendly_iconoclast]

316. And just how do propose to bring this about?

[Logical]

278. That will never happen and you know it. And statements like yours do not help.

[erinlough]

45. And in Michigan they just passed a law to allow conceal and carry in schools!

Our Republican legislature at work. I am personally more frightened of the people in Michigan who legally own guns then I am on illegal gun owners. Having some in my family they are nuts, and I feel trapped in a return to the old west living here. Where are my rights? Out the window thats where. I'm sick of the NRA and gun fanatics in general, oh and don't even respond to this with the gun fanatic line, I've heard it all and you will never change my mind anyway. OK, thanks for letting me rant.

[HughBeaumont]

55. "COME on, dose peoples coulda just as eezuly been kilt wit a lawnchaih!!!". . . or something . . .

[patrice]

59. THANK you, William! nt

[still_one]

63. Without knowing the particular facts here, what could have prevented this is the question?

[DanTex]

90. What we can say is that lax gun laws and easy gun availability increases the number of shootings

like this. Its hard to say 100% that any particular incident would have been prevented by a particular gun law, especially since we don't have all the details.

Sort of like the link between global warming and increasing storm strength. We can't blame any individual hurricane on global warming, but we can say that, statistically, global warming makes Katrinas and Sandys more likely to occur.

[still_one]

91. Agreed /nt

[billh58]

111. Oh, I don't know, maybe tightly regulated

gun control? Especially stiff penalties for carrying a gun in public? More arrests and less shootouts? Legislating responsibility for securing legally purchased guns, and heavy fines or jail time for failure to comply with those laws?

We had over 100 years of accumulated and somewhat sane laws regulating the sale and use of guns before the NRA went on a sustained political campaign to weaken those laws. They bought, threatened, and bullied politicians until they made owning and carrying a gun in the USA a "morally righteous act" and a very American act of allegiance to the Constitution.

Until we return to a sane and well-regulated approach to gun control in this country, the deaths and injuries will just keep piling up. Guns are designed for a primary purpose: to kill. The false equivalency arguments about automobiles, hammers, knives, and other tools only make the NRA brain-washed, inanimate object worshiping, paranoid Zimmerman-like zombies look ignorant.

[still_one]

256. There used to be restriction on assault weapons, until the republicans took over. You are right,

but until we can replace some of these people in legislative positions it will be hard

The whole thing is sick, and those that defend taking a gun to a school, sporting event, park, church, bars, are equally sick

[Lint Head]

66. All babies should be issued guns at birth.

This type of slaughter is becoming less rare.

[Doctor_J]

171. And receiving "safety training" at pre-school

after all, if this shooter had read all of the NRA comic books, this wouldn't have happened.

[ReRe]

80. Kids are not going to want to go to school !!!!!!

K&R

Can you blame them??? I just turned my TV over to MSNBC and there it was. Seems we are now having one of these every phucking week! NEWS CONFERENCE AT 1PM !!!EDT

[Little Star]

95. The Newtown Bee reported that a police officer carried a seriously wounded child from the building

Link to USA story here:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/14/school-shooting-connecticut/1769367/

[coalition_unwilling]

96. I'm at a loss for words. So I will merely K&R. - n/t

[heaven05]

99. you're right

and to extend on your statement, I hope you won't get offended, we also have a problem with people who really should not have guns. That to me is a large part of this.

[xchrom]

105. Du rec. Nt

[dchill]

108. I am beginning to think that Obama...

SHOULD take their guns.

JK - I've thought that since it was Clinton who was gonna take your guns.

[CheapShotArtist]

180. Meh...he might as well.

The wingnuts have already accused him of preparing to do so. Even when he's not discussing gun control, the NRA is still peddling the lie.
"Oh shit! The gubmint is coming for our gunz! Obama is gonna take away our freedom!"
Ladies and gents, here is your gun salesman of the century:
[IMG][/IMG]

[gollygee]

119. I will keep the TV off today

My kids are home sick from school and don't need nightmares tonight.

[NRaleighLiberal]

127. Huge K and R. n/t

[OneGrassRoot]

130. What's the magical ingredient in this OP that allows it to remain?

WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO DISCUSS THIS.

Why do threads which do not single anyone out but involve a discussion of guns get locked so readily here?

Huge K&R, btw.

[L0oniX]

148. Many DU members own guns. Most polls I've seen here in the past have it at about 50%.

Using these tragic deaths as fodder for anti gun rant ops is not helping DU or changing anything. It will IMO divide us ...and maybe that could be taken as an NRA agenda.

[OneGrassRoot]

155. Civil discussion about a societal problem doesn't have to equate to an anti-gun rant...

but thank you for the reply, LOoniX.

[CreekDog]

187. Obviously you don't want gun control spoken of AT ALL. Because gun tragedies are more than weekly

also, when you decry speaking of gun control in the aftermath of a tragedy, you are POLITICIZING the issue to shut the discussion down.

[L0oniX]

242. Some might call this op a disscussion. I call it a reactionary rant.

If you want every DU member who owns a gun to leave then make that known instead of attacking every legal gun owner because of some sicko ...and that's what I always see on DU. The attackers make no distinction.

[JimDandy]

287. The problem is

some of the legal gun owners themselves make no distinction or remain silent.

Those assault weapons used by the shooter to kill the kindergarten students were owned by the shooter's MOTHER- the dead kindergartener's own TEACHER! She herself was murdered by her own weapons.

I've never owned a gun, but I also didn't speak up - not ANYMORE. If you can't /won't, then you are part of the problem.

[LanternWaste]

238. Much as using these deaths to imply this is a necessary price we pay

"Using these tragic deaths as fodder for anti gun rant ops..."

Much as using these deaths to imply this is a necessary price we pay for convenient access to firearms is not helping or changing anything... that too could be easily mistaken for an NRA agenda.

[L0oniX]

243. Dividing DU members over gun ownership is exactly what the NRA would like to see.

Is DU a big tent or limited to only those who are against legal gun ownership? Aside from that IMO the guy that did this was a sicko and no one who is mentally ill should be in possession of any type gun or any weapon for that matter. A knee jerk reaction to any catastrophe or tragedy IMO is not intelligent and it is that very thing that drove the US into the Iraq war.

[sellitman]

176. +1 nt

[Warren Stupidity]

247. absent mass slaughter discussions are relegated to the gungeon

where a swarm of gungeoneers will perform their well practiced synchronized dance around any suggestion that perhaps the current situation is in fact all fucked up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. FYI, breaking nooz is getting locked as off topic

[L0oniX]

134. Gee ...how long have we been at war somewhere? Are we a military country now? Seems so ...and...

how do you have a country continually at war ...an economy dependant on jobs from the MIC ...a continual stream of solders coming back and living among us and not have gun violence in the public and private sector. Also one may consider the influence of gun violence oriented movies and maybe even gun based violent video games. Maybe if we weren't showing our children that war is acceptable with all its gun and bomb violence the problem may diminish over time. Maybe we shouldn't be such hypocrites to our children about it being ok to kill over there but not here. The lesson we continually teach our children is that it is ok to use guns to kill others as long as its over there and that IMO has its consequences. You will never get most guns out of the hands of some citizens until you get rid of war and even then the criminals will still get them. So you all can continue to use DU as a platform for an anti-gun agenda while supporting our wars and soldiers who have learned to shoot guns and kill people ...and children. It doesn't go un-noticed that the usual gun deaths caused by criminals goes without mention on DU. Also the successful use of guns for defence goes without notice on DU as well. Those who experience robbery, mugging, rape, home invasion and assault who go out and buy a gun for defence are made out to be chickens or cowards and ridiculed here and then told that they should move to a better neighbourhood. While there is plenty of anti gun rants here on DU I don't see many about eliminating the conditions that bring on the use of guns.

[leftyladyfrommo]

136. This kind of thing is what scares me most.

I don't worry about the people out there who just own guns that they keep locked up in their gun cabinet so they can go hunting once a year. Or go down and target shoot.

I worry about the wackos that seem to be able to get those guns easier than they could score a bag of kush.

We just had a guy here in Missouri that was planning on just going into the Walmart store and shooting people at random. Or, pissed off?, just grab a couple of assault rifles and wipe out everyone you had a gripe with at your old job. Or just mow down your whole family because you have had it with your bitch of a wife.

So much uncontrolled rage out there it is just unbelievable. And it's not just here. A man went into a school in China and started stabbing children - I just read that this morning. It's happening all over the world.

[cleanhippie]

263. So your issue is not with guns, but with whackos?

I would agree.

[guardian]

141. My proposed solution

bigger font on the "Gun Free Zone" sign

[Carolina]

147. Couldn't agree more

A daily mass shooting was not what the framers intended with the 2nd Amendment. This country is going to hell, rapidly.

Screw the NRA, the spineless "leaders" in this nation and the gun hoarders with short fuses

[ReRe]

149. CNN reports one child dead at 12:23PM EST

[leftyladyfrommo]

151. I just saw on CNN the principal and shool psychologist were killed.

Vice principal shot in the foot.

Didn't mention any children.

It will be a while before we get good info on this. Now it's just chaos.

[JohnnyRingo]

150. Maybe we have a violence problem in this country.

2nd amendment issues aren't my main concern, but I doubt owning a gun spurs people to commit acts of violence.

What would you propose we do about this "gun problem"? Would you collect a few hundred million guns nationwide because of what less than 1% of the population do with them? Maybe then we could go door to door and confiscate all the hard liqueur in the US to stop drunk drivers from killing people.

I guess all I'd have to do is go to a forum and freak out every time a drunk plows his car into a family minivan and declare we have a national alcohol problem.

Frankly, I think your post is an impulsive emotional outburst that wasn't very well thought out.

[DanTex]

178. No, it's a gun violence problem.

Guns make killing far too easy. And in the US, it is far to easy for practically anyone to get a gun. The US does not have violent crime rates out of line with the rest of the industrialized world, but our homicide rates are some 4X higher. Why? Because a lot of the violence in the US is committed with guns, and gun assaults are much more likely to kill people than crimes committed without guns.

[Tumbulu]

179. We have really reduced drunk driving accidents by consistently

going after drunk driving. We can do the same with gun owners if we have a system to control the sale of arms and ammunition. It would make a difference just as all the MAD folks did. It may take decades, but we need to start.

[hack89]

280. We have reduced gun violence even more than drunk driving

we have cut gun deaths from murder and manslaughter by 40% since 1992. You have to go back 50 years to find lower rates of gun violence.

[Tumbulu]

320. Well clearly we have a long way to go

and we need to keep at it- harder than before.

[billh58]

317. +1000

Exactly! Well said.

[eaglesfanintn]

184. I propose

That you can have a gun like they had when the second amendment was written. How many mass shootings would there be when it takes a minute to reload after every shot? Oh, and those shots were erratic before barrels were bored the way they are now and sometimes the ball wouldn't even penetrate the skin. So, yeah. You can have a musket. Knock yourself out.

[NeedleCast]

152. This should be constructive

FUCK YOU!

(That's not directed at anyone...just a general declaration in caps lock so people know I'm serious).

[billh58]

285. Back atcha!

And this IS directed to someone: you.

[Freddie]

154. Newtown is a very upscale area

My cousins live there, their kids probably went to that school. Shit. Rural-suburban area with houses on several acres.
"Guns don't kill people, but they sure help."

[SHRED]

165. we live in a violent country

It permeates our culture at all levels.

[Care Acutely]

166. K & R AND - FUCK YOU NRA ! ! ! ! FUCK you too, to the NRA supporting/ anti-sanity brigade.

[LonePirate]

174. Agreed! Fuck the NRA and its cowardly, fetishistic supporters.

[Care Acutely]

199. + 1000

[ReRe]

177. Holy Moly, Mother of God... differing reports every 5 minutes! Last report 10 kids/11 adults!!!

[WilliamPitt]

182. Associated Press: 27 dead, 18 children

[ReRe]

192. I'm having a panic attack, and I'm no where near there!

Going to do my neb treatment and settle down. My country, my country...

[notundecided]

188. Happy Fuckin NRA

[triplepoint]

191. We Truly Are Reaping What We've Sown

Last edited Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:35 PM - Edit history (4)

and it is likely going to be replicated many times over ad infinitum/ad nauseum.
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"...We have to save each other because all victims are equal and none is more equal than others. It's everyone's duty to start the avalanche."

--Bartholomew "Barley" Scott Blair, "The Russia House"

[Harriety]

197. When owning is gun is more important than anything else this is a as sick as it gets.

[madrchsod]

200. my school system locks the elementary doors during the school day

the only school that has open doors is the high school during lunch hours.

[abelenkpe]

201. K&R

Horrible news. Feel sick to my stomach.

We need gun control.

[2ndAmForComputers]

210. I agree with your post, especially the last two words. (And no, URLs aren't words.)

[SCVDem]

211. This is DOMESTIC TERRORISM

Let's call it what it is!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

213. It is time that WE THE PEOPLE -

say "ENOUGH!"

Our politicians are cowards -- they will not lead on this issue. We will have to have a serious grassroots effort along the lines of the Brady campaign to force changes in our gun laws.

If we don't do in now, when we have the bodies of CHILDREN laying in a Connecticut school, then it will never happen and we will deserve every death/mass killing that is coming.

We need to do this for our children.

And fuck the gun nuts who will stand in our way.

[Lucy21]

231. Silly comparison

I doubt that this man would have been able to kill 26(18 of those being children)people with a butcher knife before he was overpowered. It's much easier to blast away with an automatic weapon, so your comparison is ridiculous.

[hrmjustin]

277. On this sad day I welcome you to DU!

[Whisp]

217. too many guns and not enough care about people's mental health.

that combo can only come to this kind of travesty.

add to that the stoking of violence through the rw crazies and the constant exposure to violence in some form or other = a bunch of sick people just roaming about.

add to that conflicting and distorted messages about justice and fairness and winning and losing.

add to that prison factories are allowed because we just don't care enough because we got shoppin' to do at the WalMert...

add to that all the other conflicts that distort what it is to be a human being.

and you get an epidemic of various sicknesses, one of which is what we see today.

there will be more.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

225. It's a moral outrage to have more gun control laws.

Well, just what the hell is this? This is the real moral outrage!

There is nothing in this country preventing any insane maniac from walking in and buying firearms and ammo. Not one damn thing!

I'm sick to my stomach. I hate, hate, hate our fucking gun worship in this country!

[BlueStreak]

226. The biggest "gun problem" is ...

the people pushing these laws that encourage gun violence are the same people who are pushing laws:
- killing unions
- sustaining the "war on drugs"
- promoting the for-profit prison industry
- promoting the for-profit school industry
- promoting military expansionism
- fighting attempts to deal with climate change

etc.

I don't know that any of them actually care about guns any more than they care about abortions, but they know that there are a significant number of single-issue, low-information voters that they can manipulate through hysterics about guns, "big government" and abortion.

[billh58]

318. You have just posted

a picture perfect definition of our very own Gungeon dwellers.

[Initech]

235. The NRA can go fuck off. The propaganda has got to stop.

[underoath]

241. do we have a gun problem or a crazy fucking person problem? NT

does anyone think this person is a sane human being?

[friendly_iconoclast]

251. Hey, you! Watch it with that reasoned approach.

You're distracting the lynch mob...

[fascisthunter]

312. awww... "a lynch mob"

you delicate flower.

[Blaukraut]

255. We have a Crazy Fucking Person with Access to Guns Problem so yea, time to have that convo

It's not like this is an isolated incident. Since Columbine, 31 school shootings have happened in America. Not to mention countless non-school mass shootings by "Crazed Gunmen". There needs to be an initial, and then following that, an annual mental health assessment of every person wanting to purchase a gun. And yes, renew the AR ban.

[_ed_]

309. What does that mean?

We can't fix two things at once? We can regulate guns and help the mentally ill. It's not either-or.

[billh58]

319. Now wasn't that special...

Bye, bye, and enjoy your pizza.

[Hekate]

252. Oh hell no -- no problem -- nothing to see here -- move along

[morningfog]

253. Fucking guns and the fucking gun nuts and the fucking gun lobby and

fucking people who fight against gun control.

[marions ghost]

294. yeah

---------------------------------

[apocalypsehow]

258. Kick & Rec. n/t.

[Yukari Yakumo]

265. It isn't a gun problem. It's a crazy problem.

"You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws-that's insane!" - Penn Jillette

If you think any amount of gun control legislation would have prevented this tragedy is simply nuts.
One area that does deserve attention is our Mental Health Policy that Reagan and the Repukes gutted. You can't stop crazy people getting guns, but you can stop crazy people.

[billh58]

276. Bullshit!

Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:02 PM - Edit history (1)

Yes we can stop crazy people from getting guns by making guns very hard to get and keep. We had some fairly sane laws on the books until the fucking NRA and its red necked zombie followers started buying and intimidating politicians.

Those of you who claim some sort of "inalienable right" to carry fucking guns around in society for "self-protection" are a large part of the problem because you can't hold on to the fucking things. Too many guns in the hands of too many people will (and does) lead to too many crazies with fucking guns, and too many deaths of innocent people.

Yes, we CAN stop insane people from doing insane things with guns, and the answer is simple when you take away the fucking NRA blinders and the insane shit about the Right to Kill and Bury Americans (RKBA). You want a gun? Then jump through the hoops necessary to protect the rest of society, and be responsible for the fucking thing.

The argument that "gun control legislation can't prevent gun violence" is a logical fallacy on its face, and bullshit on its merits. Of course tight regulation of a poisonous substance can be imposed to the point of minimizing its impact on the public, and has been done with many products. Guns are indeed just as detrimental to our health as any other poisonous product. And, guns can be safely regulated as soon as people like you stop enabling the NRA-inspired gun fanatics and cultists in this country with bullshit illogical platitudes and false arguments.

[Tumbulu]

295. This should be an OP- very good!

Thank you for articulating it so clearly!

[indepat]

272. Your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in this country is abridged/

subordinated to the right of others to pack an assault rifle with a 100-shell magazine: most of society's major ills stem from acquiescing to the right wing's demands for setting public policy, be it guns or butter, the war on drugs, income inequality, tax unfairness, as infinitum, ad nausea.

[VOX]

275. WELL SAID AND THANK YOU! Thank you...

I'm so rattled that my capacity to be articulate is compromised -- but you've stated the problem perfectly.

[KoKo]

284. These Repeat Guns and Semi-Automatics are the danger. Who needs these?

to do Hunting...How many Deer can you slaughter to feed One Family for food for a year?

How many Terrorists can you SHOOT DOWN...given you can get the opportunity to do it...and if you want that opportunity then SIGN UP to SERVE in the US Military and you can go KILL all over the WORLD and mow them down with your Semi wherever they Lurk!

But here in the USA...should this kind of "Repeat Automatic Gun with "reload magazines" that can be done instantly be tolerated?

BUT...is it an infringement on our Freedoms for these Lone Mental Patients to ACT OUT?

What do we do about this?

It will end in STALEMATE as Usual...but, it's good to PUSH BACK. I sure want to but realize NRA RULES! So what do we do about that, Will Pitt?

We've dealt with this before.....but, it goes NOWHERE with tragic repercussions going on.

What are WE to do About This?

[JimDandy]

288. And the Kindergartener's own teacher was the registered owner of those guns that killed them,

according to a CBS reporter. She was murdered by her son with her own weapons.

[lbrtbell]

292. WE HAVE A HEALTH CARE CRISIS!

The shooter was mentally ill, and not getting help. That's what caused this, and every other shooting.

If he couldn't get a gun, he would have been able to make a bomb or even a weapon of his own, just by looking for a how-to on the internet.

We need to get help for people like this before they go off the deep end. And if they can't be helped, then we need to get them off the streets.

Because, one way or another, they'll end up hurting and killing people.

But ZOMG, Obamacare is soooooooocialism!!!11!!

[Gregorian]

293. Yes. Let's not blame anything but what this is.

It's about mental health. But that phrase is not accurate in this society, nor most others.

We need a new context within which to view health. We need a completely new way of approaching this. I posted what Alice Miller has discovered, and it went essentially nowhere. Yet what she has written about is one of the only ways to get from here, to there.

It's time to scrutinize the things we all do not want to look at. And with a fine toothed comb.

It's not about guns. And I find it strange that I would be saying this after all of the years of hating that stupid right wing phrase about guns.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. I'm grateful you're here. We need to hear the voices of conscious people.

[billh58]

296. Mental health is a part

of the problem. Guns are a bigger problem, because of their widespread availability, and the lack of responsibility and legal accontability by the owners of legal gun purchases. On average, 80-100 people are killed by guns every day somewhere in the USA. Just because they are not all killed in one place by a mentally unstable individual does not lessen the severity of the problem.

It IS about guns, and poor mental health care is only a part of the problem. Not every gun death is the result of a crazed psychopath gone amok.

[lupinella]

297. K&R n/t

[King_Klonopin]

304. Yo William

You from Mass.? You an HST fan? Ditto here.
Keep up the good fight!

[King_Klonopin]

305. GUNS = DEATH

God and Guns go together for many of these yahoos. Ask
the man who killed Dr. Tiller in the name of God.

I wouldn't doubt if some believed that there are guns in heaven,
and that Jesus battles Satan with a 9 mm or an AK-47.

Sure, their beliefs and reasoning are insane -- but time has
proven that they cannot be convinced of this.

In Palestine, Gaza, Syria, etc. the children live with the constant
anxiety that they may be killed at any moment -- by a lethal weapon.
Very soon, we will have the same conditions here in the U.S., where,
in some places, that fear has already started taking firm root.

But the enemy here is not an invading army or armed terrorists.
The enemy is US, ourselves. The enemy is our romance with violence
and death. The enemy takes the form of a violent and malcontented
neighbor, or an anonymous psychopath -- an evil and soulless "person"
with an easily-obtained outlet for expressing his rage.

We are a society that is heading toward an atavistic destiny of total
anomie, one which some of those yahoos mis-characterize as "freedoms".

To quote a great line from the movie "Witness", when the Amish grandfather
offers some wise advice to his grandson about guns:
"Whatever you take into your hand, you take into your heart."

The collective heart of America is filled with guns. God, save us all !

(from a reply I posted on another thread, "FUCK THE NRA&quot

[In_The_Wind]

306. Hell yes, we do have a problem.

[Maineman]

310. Stop Teaching Gun Violence!

Computer games are used to teach math and other subjects. Videos are used to illustrate how to do math and other skills. Children learn how to do math from watching videos and playing computer games. Are we to believe that violent computer games, videos, and movies do not teach violence? Are we to believe that children decide to learn math from computer games, but turn off learning when the game involves shooting people? Are we to believe that children and young adults with mental health problems make this type of distinction? In other words, are we fools and idots? Will we continue to brainlessly accept the marketing spin of video and computer game profiteers when they assure us that violent games and videos do not affect behavior?

Oh, you say the people involved have a right to earn a living? Our Constitution is about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not life, liberty, and the pursuit of money. Violence training materials are certainly as big a public nuisance as organized crime. Stop violence education now!

Possession of movies, videos, and computer games that teach, illustrate, or depict gun violence should be banned. Possession of such should be totally illegal including existing products. In 1933, and for forty years thereafter, personal possession of gold was banned, and citizens were required to trade it in, especially gold coins. We can certainly do the same with violence training materials.