Is the Michigan thing the death knell of the American labor movement?

[Stinky The Clown]

I am feeling pretty bad about things.

There is nothing that can be done to overturn this crap vote since they put a spending clause it, making it referendum-proof. But that's a detail.

As outraged as you or I may be, the larger population pretty much doesn't give a shit.

It may take a generation to overcome this. This really is, it seems to me, a serious blow.

And yeah. It could be the death knell of unions.

[Mel Content]

1. i thought that it was Ronbo's firing of the PATCO people.

[Major Nikon]

49. PATCO endorsed Raygun

Just sayin'

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. I think it will be just the opposite.

The GOPers thought their efforts at voter suppression would win the election for them; instead, it motivated voters more than ever to vote early and/or to stand in line for hours to be sure their right to vote would not be taken away. The GOPers overreached, and it cost them. The "Michigan thing" is another example of overreach, and I truly believe it will bite them in the rear. Union members and civil rights advocates are all up in arms about this, and they'll light a fire. People are very, very pissed off. This isn't over. The GOPers will pay a heavy price for this - if other measures (litigation, referendums, etc.) don't work, they will be handed their asses in 2014. Count on it.

[davidn3600]

39. Yeah it sure motivated voters during the Walker recall, didn't?

[HiPointDem]

55. yeah, people keep saying so, but... the most significant 'union membership' is now in the public

unions, and lots of their fellow workers would be glad to throw them overboard.

the 'michigan thing' is bigger than right-to-work -- it has to do with basic democratic rights. what i'm wondering is why the rest of what's going on in michigan hasn't gotten more press, because it's even worse.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. I'm sure it's hitting the courts as we speak...

Bluto: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

Otter (Tim Matheson): [whispering] Germans?

Boon (Peter Riegert): Forget it, he's rolling.

Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough... [thinks hard] the tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go! [runs out, alone; then returns] What the **** happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Bluto, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my *** from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer -

Otter: Dead! Bluto's right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.

Bluto: We're just the guys to do it.

D-Day: Let's do it.

Bluto: LET'S DO IT!!

[FarCenter]

4. Private sector union membership is in the single digit percentages -- it's over.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

9. Right

Let a few more people lose their pensions and let's see your prediction come true.

[FarCenter]

19. Unions are not a high Democratic priority - only mentioned in 4 paragraphs of 32 page 2012 Platform

http://assets.dstatic.org/dnc-platform/2012-National-Platform.pdf

See page 9.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

25. Are you really a Democrat?

If you were you'd know that most ground work done for the party, phone banking. GOTV etc, is done by rank and file union members.

[randome]

27. That doesn't change the fact that the party platform does not appear to value them.

Which is what FarCenter was pointing out.

Another one of the pressures put on unionization is technology. Most IT workers are not unionized.

I wish it was different, both for IT and other areas, but those are the facts.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

26. In addition

You didn't address my original comment ie the war on worker pensions. Were you even aware that is going on?

[FarCenter]

31. Employer pensions are inherently risky because employers have shorter lifespans than workers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Lovely RW talking points there

[FarCenter]

35. Can a company live forever?

The average lifespan of a company listed in the S&P 500 index of leading US companies has decreased by more than 50 years in the last century, from 67 years in the 1920s to just 15 years today, according to Professor Richard Foster from Yale University.

Today's rate of change "is at a faster pace than ever", he says.

Professor Foster estimates that by 2020, more than three-quarters of the S&P 500 will be companies that we have not heard of yet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16611040

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Can these pensions be transferred to caretakers

Instead of used by management?

See American Airlines and Hostess for examples...which are among the worst actors. Neither was or is fifteen years either.

We expect you to peddle RW talking points like the sun rises in the East...sorry.

[FarCenter]

42. They can be transfered to the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation

It is funded from contributions by employers with pension plans covered by PBGC.

However, defined benefit pension plans are normally structured so that the benefit earned for early years of service is relatively small and the benefit from more years of service are higher. Furthermore, the benefits are based on average compensation during some later years worked. Thus, they are structured to reward long service and longevity with the employer.

Therefore, if a company goes out of business while an employee is in mid-career, they generally are screwed. Same if the employer does a conversion from defined benefit to defined contribution, with a cash transfer to the defined contribution plan or a buyout.

Pension plans associated with a union pension plan and not an employer are possibly better, although I'm not so familiar with them, and I'm not sure whether they are backed up by insurance if they are underfunded.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. You are till not getting it

And I am done...go preach RW crap to somebody else. I am serious as a heart track. That kool aid you are implying are 401k which are a way to transfer YOUR MONEY to very wealthy people who are greedy as hell.

[JaneyVee]

5. No, there is one other strategy:

The option of the “statutory initiative,” which would be forced by the collecting of signatures equal to at least 8% of the votes cast in the last gubernatorial election.

[HiPointDem]

57. dunno about that, but the right-to-work thing has a "no referendum allowed" clause built into it.

so theoretically at least, no challenge from the people is legal.

[Inkfreak]

76. Wow! That's crazy.

I had no idea. That just seems so anti-democratic. The people can't vote?? Insane.

[GreenEyedLefty]

6. Yes... because people forget.

They'll forget until wages fall, when dangerous factory work is the only game in town, when people are so poor they have to work together as a family to make ends meet, child and adults alike, when a decent education is completely unattainable, when health care is out of reach of everyone but the very wealthiest, when they have no time for down time, when "benefits" like lunch breaks become luxuries...

You know, my dad's dad was an original Sit Down striker (1937). Hard to imagine, that organized labor rose and fell in the relatively brief span of my own dad's lifetime.

I haven't been able to call him to talk because I'm afraid we'll both break down.

[Bozita]

51. Well stated! ... Welcome to Michissippi.

[Tsiyu]

71. +1000

"I don't know why they're bothering," I heard someone say recently of a union.

I wanted to say, "Well you're certainly enjoying the benefits some past union won for you,. Forty hour work week, every federal holiday off, probably get great insurance and vacation and pension, don't you? But don't let anyone else fight for any of that."

But I just let it go. Even if she doesn't have a great benefits package, why knock people who want more for their labor? More money flowing to labor is what actually grows the economy.

This woman would rather see people go bankrupt because she's doing fine...

Some people are just blind, deaf and dumb all on purpose.

[Turbineguy]

7. No.

it's the deathknell of the republican party.

[malaise]

8. It will spearhead the revival

Just watch and see

[former9thward]

24. This is the 25th state to do RTW.

How come there was not a revival when it happened in the other 24?

[HiPointDem]

58. this time for sure!!! just vote for more democrats!!

[donco]

10. I think, with the repukes help,

the pendulum just stopped and is about to change course in the opposite direction.

[oldhippydude]

30. that's what gives me hope... demographics, there are more of us in the pipeline than them....

they are dying everyday where more of us are being born... 06, and 08, as well as 12 shows that if we vote we win... its really that simple.. as long as they insist on being only old white guys the will guarantee their fate..

[AndyTiedye]

37. The Pendulum Just Keeps On Going Further to the Right

as public opinion to the contrary is trumped by gerrymandering.

[gollygee]

11. My hope

is that this will outrage people enough to get their butts into gear and get political.

But who knows.

[busterbrown]

12. Nope........I think its gonna piss a lot of people off.

Also people might begin to learn why Unions are so important.
For instance, If you work in the private sector and there are Union Shops in that area
your wages will be higher than if the Union businesses were not in the area.

[kwassa]

13. no, because eventually all the Republicans will lose. They have nothing to offer ...

except regression and exploitation.

I think the pendulum is changing directions, and this is the last gasp of a previously elected legislature.

Our job is to just make their regressive selves highly visible, and watch things change.

[Cal Carpenter]

14. No.

I was in Lansing today surrounded by at least 10,000 people called on short notice, mostly union workers.

I have been to a lot of protests, strikes, events, and I have *never* seen this - representatives from just about every union in the state of Michigan, including from several hundred miles away in the UP. People from WI, OH, IN, and who knows where else. Labor leaders ranging from locals to Jim Hoffa Jr. People came together today. Conservative plumbers from Petoskey and young service workers from Detroit. Nurses and pipefitters and teachers. Oh my. (The 'larger population', if I may be so bold) The real sense of solidarity. The understanding that even those union workers who are doing great still need to be there with their brothers and sisters. That a rising tide lifts all boats. That it is the power in numbers that transcends the ballot box and brings people into the streets. There were people there, standing and fighting, people who will be back the next time the call goes out with even more of their fellow workers and family and friends, for a rally or a general strike, using the one real bargaining chip that we have - our labor.

I know, I am diving deeply into sentimental hyperbole and I always get a sort of buzz from events like this, but I'm not totally full of beans

I was there most of the day, it seems like it has gone on (and maybe continues to?) since we left this afternoon...

It is not over. This is a long, long fight and there is a new wave of battles. This part is just beginning.

[Starry Messenger]

23. Thank you for the eye on the ground report Cal.

That puts the heart back in me.

[jeff47]

15. Buck up. This is nowhere near the end

First, the Republicans have pissed off a lot of people in MI. That's gonna hurt them in future elections. Remember a crapload of people charged the capitol building with no notice when this first started. That indicates a lot of people in MI feel extreeeeeemly strongly about it.

Second, this can be overturned by a referendum. A referendum can't directly repeal the law, but a referendum can pass a new law that replaces it.

Replacing it takes more signatures to get on the ballot than repeal, but the anger in part 1 makes that a lot easier. They need 250k signatures in this particular case.

Third, unions came into being because the wealthy were treating the rest of us so crappy. People are turning back to unions because the wealthy are now treating the rest of us so crappy. Unions will be as powerful as the 1950s in a decade or two. And then when life gets good for the rest of us, we'll turn our backs again. The wealthy will overreach again and we'll turn back to unions. And so on.

[Lefty48197]

47. The Michigan Republicans are even more dastardly than you know.

They attached a phony appropriations bill to the RTW legislation thereby making the law immune from a referendum and even immune from repeal. We'll need a court to decide that the "appropriation" was just a phony scam and de-tach it before we'll have ANY chance of repealing this. Add in the fact that the MI Republicans have a super majority in the Senate and have gerry mandered the fuck out of our state and we have no chance of repealing this law anytime soon in Michigan.

[jeff47]

61. You're not quite getting what I'm saying

The old law remains on the books. The new law is passed via referendum. The new law does not strike the old law, because as you said you can't strike an appropriation. Instead, it adds to the old law....and makes it say the opposite.

[HiPointDem]

59. I read there is a "no referendum" clause built into the legislation (or maybe in a separate piece,

i can't remember the details).

so theoretically at least, there will be no referendum, because that's the law in this case.

Yes, here it is:

Michigan can't go the way of Ohio, where a referendum last year reversed legislation that would have restricted collective bargaining.

Michigan's right-to-work legislation is attached to an appropriations bill, meaning it can't be reversed by referendum.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mo-michigan-right-to-work-20121211,0,7036554.story

[jeff47]

63. Read what I'm saying a tad more closely.

The law can't be repealed. But I'm not saying to repeal it. The old law will remain on the books. The new, referendum-passed law will add to the old law. It will just so happen that the new additions reverse the effects of the old law.

[HiPointDem]

64. well, that might work. but you said 'referendum'. so i guess my thinking is that would apply to

any referendum on that law.

[jeff47]

65. There's 2 kinds of referenda in MI

One repeals a law, and the second passes a new law.

The first is much easier to get on the ballot - it requires many less signatures.

Neither one can be directly used against appropriation bills, but the second lets the people add new law to the books. The fact that the old law was an appropriations bill doesn't matter, because the referendum isn't removing the old law.

[HiPointDem]

66. is this in the works? it's cheering.

[jeff47]

67. Dunno. I figure it'll take a little bit for the unions to figure out their strategy. (nt)

[HiPointDem]

68. so this is your personal thought about the strategy to take? or it's under discussion?

[jeff47]

69. I've read a few different pundits proposing it as a solution.

I have no idea what plans the unions are hatching.

[HiPointDem]

70. thanks.

[0rganism]

16. no, but it might be the beginning of the end of "right to work" bullshit

and, if we're lucky, the end of republican governorships and majorities in the rust belt legislatures.

[randome]

17. I'm not sure why the Michigan law is a death-knell.

It's a lame duck Republican legislature. Won't the Democratic majority that comes in next year at least make an effort to replace this?

[Lefty48197]

46. Republicans own the Governorship, Senate, House, and Supreme Court in Michigan

We didn't retake anything in November other than a few House seats. Our party leadership blew it over the last ten years or so.

[Overseas]

18. Could be. But I hope it is the opposite.

[Fire Walk With Me]

20. This should be the end of the political career of everyone who voted for and sponsored it.

OCCUPY UNTIL IT DIES. This is all about the power of the people and those who are directly against the power of the people. GO MICHIGAN!

[larwdem]

21. no

the war has just begun

[Doctor_J]

22. Yeah, it's all over but the cryng

the people have almost no voice in the governance of the US any more. We're pretty much just a Banana Republic. We gave our all a month ago to scrape out a win for a corporatist who's already sold us out without a fight, because the only alternative was 100 times worse. The American Experiment is over. It could have been rescued with a very aggressive purge of the propaganda apparatus about 20-25 years ago. Guillotines and such. Now it's past the point of no return. The only people whose rights are expanding are the gun nuts, who told us all along their weapons who keep us from sliding into tyranny

[abelenkpe]

28. When Reagan fired the air traffic controllers was the death knell

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. No...it will take time

But it is the rebirth...

Here.

democraticunderground.com/10021964074

[Agnosticsherbet]

33. The Labor movement has been in retreat for decades.

This is another setback.

It may be time to start pushing back in a big way.

Organized labor needs to get off the comfy couch and re-organize.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. That is because of assumptions made by labor

Which were wrong. I am hearing the beginning of radicalization locally.

The point they need to understand is they serve the working class, not the middle class. They also need to finally get it, there is no permament place at the table for the rabble

[Selatius]

73. Radicalization of labor may be a good thing. But it's less so if severe damage is already inflicted.

People should be active and mobilized, and I have no problem with that. The rightists like to call that "radicalization," but that's just a term invented to scare uncommitted citizens off to the sidelines.

The thing of the matter is that, historically, radicalization only happened after a major economic calamity occurred. The Great Depression and the major physical confrontations between labor and management in the 1930s come to mind.

Ideally, the situation doesn't grow so desperate and grim before people mobilize, but a lot of Americans are still asleep. If they're awake, many of them have not become committed yet to the cause.

If it takes the Second Great Depression to really get the ball rolling on labor activism, I can't help but throw up my hands. That was the outcome we should've learned to avoid the first time around. History shouldn't have to repeat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Sorry, talking Bakunin here, not Ryan

The term radicalization is much older than our current version of the radical right.

[Agnosticsherbet]

75. Actually, it is due to the very successful demonization of labor.

Rewriting of history by the right.

And policies put in place in Republican administrations, nationally and in states, that Democrats did not push to overturn when they came into power.

Anti labor is so common and acceptable that there are even many Democrats who accept it.

Labor has got to do more than radicalize. It must become international, for real and organize on a global scale.

[madrchsod]

45. we re-organizing....

the chicago teachers union has shown the way unions across the country can fight a well funded political adversary and win.

a set back is nothing more than understanding where the enemy is the weakest

[lonestarnot]

56. And get it done!

[bluestate10]

38. No. Republicans are pissing into the wind. Every thing they are doing will be reversed.

and unless democrats screw up, republicans won't see power for decades.

[backscatter712]

40. Time to go wildcat, methinks.

The law's not on the side of workers, because it's been bought by the rich exploiters.

Fuck the law.

The very country we live in and argue about was founded because a bunch of people said "Fuck the law", threw tea belonging the the Walmart of the 18th century into Boston Harbor, and started throwing rocks, then shooting guns at soldiers.

When people are getting fucked badly enough, they fight back.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. They are coming

In fact, NYC food workers strike was one.

Interesting times and all that.

[madrchsod]

43. no......we ain`t going away anytime soon

[Lefty48197]

44. NO!

It's the death knell of Mark Brewer's leadership as Chair of the Michigan Democratic Party. He's been in that position for over a decade and he hasn't been able to take and hold the House, Senate, or Supreme Court during that time. The Reps have a super majority in the Senate and a sizable advantage in the House although the advantage in the House will shrink after Jan. 1. They've gerry-mandered the fuck out of our state and retaking both houses of the legislature may be near impossible by 2010 when the next reapportionment comes along. The best we can hope for is to control the House and at least instill some fairness to the district lines. Right now, they're ridiculous.

There is one other chanced to get this over turned. Somebody has filed a lawsuit stating that they violated the state's "open meetings act" by ramming through the votes last week without public notice or comment periods. The courts may be our only hope on this issue, but the Supreme Court won't help a bit.

[okieinpain]

50. unions should buy their own

companies.

[lonestarnot]

52. Those that would believe this are those that have never had the honor of working as a union member

and the pleasure of the enjoyment of rights and privileges offered to a union employee. And no it is not the death knell. People will tire of being tired, working sick, working injured, working broke and unions will make a comeback from this management/richie rich attempt at takeover. You are saying that people no longer care about civil rights, justice and fair pay for fair work under protection by safety and health regulations and laws. Your worry would be better placed for the blood, sweat and emotion that may be shed over it. Trouble may be on the horizon.

[JDPriestly]

53. Please explain what you are saying here:

"they put a spending clause it, making it referendum-proof." How does that work in Michigan? How does putting a spending clause in something make it impossible to amend or repeal? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

[HiPointDem]

54. I think it's a watershed in the same way PATCO was, yeah. It's not just about the right-to-work

designation either, there is lots more going on in michigan. The emergency management law is big, in my mind. I am trying to clarify the current status.

[cherokeeprogressive]

60. No more than President Obama's election and re-election was the death knell of the republicans.

I feel like I saw posts to that effect on Nov. 7th as well as Nov. 4th 2008.

There are labor unions in right-to-work states. The American Labor Movement will never die.

[davidn3600]

62. Most Americans view unions as being equally as bad as corporations

Unions have become a victim of their success.

In the past there were few restrictions on corporations that severely exploited workers. Wal-Mart would be a dream job compared to what companies used to do. So unions were formed primarily to respond to those unsafe work environments.

Over the years the government passed laws that tried to achieve the same things unions were fighting for. Agencies like OSHA were formed to keep a safe workplace. Child labor laws were passed. Anti-trust laws were passed. Anti-discrimination laws were passed. Minimum wage laws were passed. The 40-hour work week was put in force, and companies had to pay overtime for employees that go over those hours. Etc, etc, etc...

So unions no longer have to fight for these things anymore. Today they primarily fight for wages and benefits. And many Americans don't see a need for that. They feel they are able to negotiate their own salaries and view union dues as a waste of money. They see labor disputes being waged by rich people, lawyers that are billing hundreds of dollars per hour, and union leaders who are getting quite rich themselves, to get modest increases in pay for employees while the corporate executives don't see their bloated salary go down a dime.

Labor disputes are not fought by workers. It's a war between very wealthy people where both sides claim to have the worker's best interests at heart. Sounds a lot like our politicians.

[arthritisR_US]

72. I think we are going back 100 years and the bitter

battles labour fought will be revisited, as it should