We don't have governments anymore, we have corporations. Corporations run

[RKP5637]

the world, governments are subservient to the corporate structure and the whims thereof ...

When you build and maintain a nation based on corporate profits, "we the people" fall to the bottom rung of the ladder.

And point as witness - the revolving door between government, lobbyists and corporations. Does anyone really, seriously, believe most of those in government (thinking of elected high profile/power positions) think of "we the people first." Some surely do, but I think they are the minority. $$$$$ and profits come first, and for many the top priority is their personal gain and that of their cronies.

Hence, most of the governments' decisions are driven by $$$$$ and appeasing the corporate structure. What is good for the entire nation, what is good for "we the people" often takes a back seat priority.

In short, how could anyone possibly believe the current problems are not manifested by default when corporate profit is the #1 priority.

[LisaLynne]

1. I don't think that the pure, unadulterated pursuit of money and profits ...

can ever bring about lasting good for all. What is the point of pointlessly accumulating weath and doing nothing with it except making sure you and your friends can get more? At some point, you have enough cars, enough homes, enough of everything. But the corporation chugs on, sucking up more and more.

You are spot on, IMHO.

[RKP5637]

2. It is a tremendous conflict of interest. Jefferson once said something to the

affect that a two party system was dangerous for the country ... also, he did not trust/like corporations. Eisenhower once said a growing MIC was dangerous for the country. Many other presidents have highlighted some of the pitfalls ... and now we have a number of them combined operating simultaneously to control the direction of the country. ... the most dangerous one to me is USA, Incorporated. Money first, 'we the people' last.

[tblue]

51. Well, I remember some billionaire tycoon,

a couple years ago, I forget who it was, but he was asked, "Hiw much more money do you want?" His answer was, "All of it."

There is no end to the greed and we have to reign it in somehow.

[marmar]

3. to quote FDR:

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to the point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. That in its essence is fascism – ownership of government by an individual, by a group or any controlling private power."

[newfie11]

4. That sure sounds like he is talking about today

Wake up America.

[hootinholler]

10. I was going to post this in reply to the OP

And saw you had the quote.

[aquart]

16. No man should be so rich he has nothing left to buy but his government.

[PoliticalBiker]

22. Great Statement!

gonna have to steal it... with you permission of course

[RKP5637]

40. Tremendous statement!!!

[RKP5637]

57. K&R !!! K&R !!! K&R !!! K&R !!! K&R !!! n/t

[Octafish]

62. Where is today's FDR?

We the People sure miss the input, leadership and vision.

[OldEurope]

5. But as corporations are people...

...where is the problem?


Do I need ?

[RC]

9. Absolutely, you need that sarcasm smilie.

There are sarcasm impaired people on DU. Sarcasm impairment is a conservative trait. Conservatives think in black and white, little or no grey. They think yes or no, there is no maybe, no grey areas, no colour. So therefore, sarcasm eludes them. As do quite often, puns.
With a post count of less than a couple of thousand, some will see you as a troll, a sock puppet, zombie, etc. (Conservatives also tend to be paranoid), so use of the sarcasm smilie is a good idea, all the time.

[ReRe]

6. I can only add this quote from Abraham Lincoln on 11-21-1864....

K&R

...in a letter to Col William F. Elkins:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country... Corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

[PoliticalBiker]

23. Excellent!

The man had foresight, no doubt about that

[ReRe]

33. The man was brilliant...

...it's kind of eerie hearing his premonitions for the future, after the passage of 148 years, and knowing that they were so true.

[PoliticalBiker]

34. Too Bad...

... there is absolutely no resemblence to the republican party of today.
things would be so much different. We could actually get something done.

[ReRe]

46. Yeah, its' plain to see...

...that old Abe would NOT be a Republican today.

[RKP5637]

56. Abe today would be kicked out of the R party as some F'en dirty ignorant backwoods hippie. n/t

[tex-wyo-dem]

47. No kidding...Lincoln and FDR were both...

Truly seers of reality and had a tremendous amount of foresite, not to mention courage!

[ReRe]

48. All things considered....

.... I think they were our best presidents. Hands down.

[RKP5637]

58. I think so too!

[RKP5637]

41. And we have sooo much evidence of that right now! "... until wealth is aggregated in a few

hands and the Republic is destroyed."

[Le Taz Hot]

7. And the convenient facilitators

Last edited Tue Dec 11, 2012, 12:03 PM - Edit history (1)

to ALL of this are the major political parties that act as the lap dogs to the corporations and do the bidding of their corporate masters. One of the many reasons our two-party system is irretrievably broken.

Edited for better grammur.

[RKP5637]

59. Often I wonder, anymore, if there even is a dividing line between corporations and the two

major political parties. To me, they have pretty much become one in the same. And in many areas when it comes to $$$$$ they are all the same. Many days, I feel like a disgruntled employee.

[riverbendviewgal]

8. i think we are heading into oligarchy governments

So scary. Ever read Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy? Great books.

I don't see how we can fight these corporations. We can try though.

[John2]

17. Educate the masses

more and the few people that put them in power. I'm talking about people that vote against their own interests and think the interests of the few are theirs'. They want to be like the few but most will never get there. The few will pick and choose the winners, because with their increased wealth, they seek to accumulate power also.

The Koch brothers, Murdoch and Adelson are the examples of this. They are greedy and selfish men and dangerous to any Democracy. What they call freedom is the will to prey on others. They want a society to serve their pleasures. I think that is what they call vulture capitalism if I'm not mistaken and it is worse than what Americans call communism. I guess people like Warren Buffet has had enough also because he seems content with the Billions he has accumulated already. And for these vultures, the United States appears to be their grand prize to obtain. It is not Big Government which serves the people that is threatening us but vulture capitalists and a small group of shareholders. Our Government belongs to us, but the U.S. Supreme Court opened the opportunity for it to be bought. If the Koch Brothers can succeed in breaking Unions that alters the field. That is the way the Democrats need to attack this law in Michigan. We saw a phenomenon in this Election. CEOs threatening the livelihood of voters if they didn't vote for a certain candidate. That is where the education of the public needs to take place and not just with low wages. Do not leave the people behind these laws out. Force the media to force out the force behind Synder. He is bought and paid for in Michigan. Choice is just a cover.

[leftstreet]

38. We need politicians who represent our interests first n/t

[riverbendviewgal]

42. Think RollerBall

all those people throwing their money away..... for such a slim, slim chance they will be the winner..

How greed rules...My friends and I say there should be a cap/limit on these prizes and then the excess monies be put into million dollar prizes.


All these people who buy rollerball are quite ready to sign their vote to those who have the money prize dangling in their sight.


I think there is a thin line of survival anyway....check out the limits of our growth in Earth.
http://www.thenation.com/article/171610/limits-growth-book-launched-movement

Koch Brothers and company probably see this coming and are just grabbing all they can while they enjoy it. They could care less about the rest of us.

[RKP5637]

61. K&R !!! n/t

[RKP5637]

60. Exactly!!! "And for these vultures, the United States appears to be their grand prize to obtain."

This IS what it's all about now, "when money is not enough." Education of the masses is the priority, and hence the suppression of education and enhancement of STUPIDITY in US = United Stupidity. And the shame of it all is, SCOTUS is not our friend.

And aptly said, "Choice is just a cover."

[ieoeja]

26. That trilogy really opens up the mind to new economic models.

First they are trying to enforce the existing power structure across the distance (time and space) to Mars. Then you end up with the question: what do we do about the economy if we live forever?

This science fiction trilogy is why my reply to "we need more jobs" is usually "Why?" What are we missing that we need more people working to provide it?

It used to take our entire family a month to plant then another to harvest crops. Two guys do each of those tasks in a couple days now. A Caterpillar plant went from over two thousand employees to around two dozen employees, yet continued manufacturing more product.

As technology moves forward, fewer people can do more work in less time. But our economic model has not changed. So we require people to do work for no particular reason whatsoever. The new specialist jobs that keep popping up in the office look quite frankly like complete bullshit. It's almost like someone is just making up jobs so that people can have a job. As long as our economic model is the way it is, I guess I'm glad for that.

[riverbendviewgal]

43. If the wealth was shared more we could all not have to work much

I just think that in the long run we will make ourselves extinct.

http://www.thenation.com/article/171610/limits-growth-book-launched-movement

Perhaps it is too much to expect any one book to do everything a reader might wish. And thus the other questions are for other books. Or, perhaps, Limits’ failure to interrogate the problem of socioeconomic power—its failure even to flirt covertly with critical and radical theories of social change—may also explain why, despite its popularity and commercial success, it didn’t have a greater impact on real policy.

This question of power leads back to the original sin of the funders: the remarkable naïveté of Aurelio Peccei, the Club of Rome and the de-historicizing, mechanistic worldview of Jay Forrester’s systems dynamics. If power concedes nothing without a demand, then Limits didn’t even try.

That said, The Limits to Growth was a scientifically rigorous and credible warning that was actively rejected by the intellectual watchdogs of powerful economic interests. A similar story is playing out now around climate science.

[RKP5637]

63. In the long run humanity will become extinct, given the current plan, in humanity's own garbage as

we grow, grow, grow to supposedly survive in this inane insane model many worship. And those on the take with great wealth fully know this. So, given the human lifespan, they take as much as they can now, enjoy it as they can, knowing it's all going away given the current plan, but they will be gone by then having completed their life of greed.

[Iggy]

53. "Headed into"??

We're already there.

The evidence (if you don't have enough evidence already) will be the current negotiations regarding the federal budget/taxes, and what congress actually does. will they end corporate off shoring which costs us tens of billions of dollar per year in lost revenue?

Well?

[Maineman]

11. We the People MUST win! Corporate bosses hate democracy.

Corporations and billionaires have lots of money. What many of them really want is control. Their model for success in their arena is authoritarian control. That is not democracy, that is dictatorship. The real struggle in our nation is democracy versus something closely resembling fascism. The tax fight is not about lower taxes for millionaires, it is about making the masses weaker.

[RKP5637]

64. As someone mention in this thread, basically ... their prize is now the whole United States

Government. When money is not enough, owning and dominating the entire US is now their prize. Kansas, for example, is now owned by the Koch Brothers. And the territory is expanding.

[99Forever]

12. We are now The Corporate States of America.

Slave your life away, then die quickly and quietly or face the corporate boot.

[aquart]

15. Is this going to be juvenile crap day?

Did you sleep through American history, what little they teach? Never saw a John Sayles movie?

Never visit a cemetery and notice what age people used to die?

Really, what truculent, defeatist ignorance.

[99Forever]

25. Good bye.

[aquart]

13. We don't have governments but they're subservient?

Unmuddy your thinking.

Try to understand why CEO's make LOUSY public servants.

[RKP5637]

65. I think I already understand that quite well! n/t

[RKP5637]

75. PS: Your point on logic is well taken!

[RevStPatrick]

14. So... whaddaya gonna do about it?

Serious question...

[TheKentuckian]

18. Start with breaking them from our elected people

Which means running most of who we have out on a rail and refusing their friendlies.

If they are "viable" they probably should be treated as radioactive. If the corporations are righting big checks they should be avoided. If the corporate media is pushing them then they are probably of no account, if the corporate media is shunning them then they deserve to be listened to very carefully.
If party insiders are lining up then keep looking.

If they are not talking about wages, poverty, getting a real handle on trade, and ending the drug war then they are probably so full of shit that if they were a toilet they couldn't flush with a plunger and twelve gallons of liquid plumber.

[Le Taz Hot]

32. ^

This.

[RKP5637]

45. I've often pondered and wondered the same, and realize I don't have the slightest idea how it

will be changed / end. One thing I do know is the system as we know it today will not go on forever and ever ad infinitum.

However, I think most of us will be way long gone before serious change occurs. Money talks and has great power, the rest of us for the most part just talk. And that change could be far worse. Well, with genetically bred labor farms.

And in the big picture, we might actually see one day the battle of the corporations in open warfare of some type.

[dkf]

19. Yeah it would be an absolutely brilliant move to chase all the corporations to Asia and China.

Let the rest of the world produce everything. I have no idea how our economy survives or how we keep ourselves employed but hey we are 315 million in a world of 7 billion in a country that is losing its clout every day.

[GitRDun]

36. Who is saying chase the corporations to Asia and China?

There are plenty of ways to address poverty, unfairness without sending corporations overseas.

[dkf]

49. Does it sound like the OP wants corporations here?

[RKP5637]

66. The OP wants corporations here. There is no difficulty with the corporate model if

kept in check. What we have now is unbalanced corporatism.

[dkf]

80. Do your "checks" enable a corporation to compete with corporations in other counties?

If not there's no point in saying you would like them to be here. A corporation that can't compete will fail and disappear.

[RKP5637]

81. Of course, dfk. I'm not sure how you ever thought otherwise. In fact, I spent a

career dealing with international corporations.

[GitRDun]

82. It sounds like he is looking for something along the lines of balance.

As an example, why should we subsidize Walmart's low wages to the tune of billions in food stamps and Medicaid to their employees when perfectly good companies like Costco manage to make a profit while insuring their employees and paying them a living wage.

There should be some rationale limits in ANY society where sheer profit motive crosses a line where society at large is harmed. Pollution laws, food safety laws are just a couple examples.

The fair argument should be where should that line get drawn. It should not be an argument that there should be no line.

[toby jo]

20. If only we could have an election

and prove where the power really lies. If only it were a case of 'the people' v. 'the corporation', then we could really prove ourselves out.

Come on, people. We did good. Live it.

There are some really good congressman out there working for us. It's just the nature of the beast when you have unlimited resources, as America had when founded, for power to organize itself along the lines of business the way it did. Remember the fur company up in Canada? They were pretty powerful in their day. Beaver pelts for fucks sakes. Alot of them.

We're pretty good at kicking their asses. We'll get them on 'citizens united', too. This is America. It's blood.

[RKP5637]

67. Quite well said, it's a transitional model and hopefully the really good congressmen will

tilt the model in favor of "we the people." Citizens United was a drastically poor decision by SCOTUS.

The fur company is a good example ... this type of stuff has been going on for eons.

[Liberal1975]

21. It has been a systematic

Process to get us to this point. The true goal is a return to the guilded age of the previous century.

Reagan began the process through deregulation, by far the most far reaching consequences (in my opinion) was the deregulation of the media.

Once the entire media establishment got folded into in the multinational corporate structure, the message was and has been controlled.

If we put what is happening in a universal historical context then we can observe that this quite common.

Societies in the post agricultural revolution always create hierchical structures which inevitably lead to the concentration of more and more power in the hands of a smaller and smaller group of people.

Eventually, the plutocratic elite destroy the very society their position and power depend on by succombing to greed and short term thinking by pushing the people beyond the point they can endure. The people overthrow the system and the system is rebuilt along hierchical lines and the cycle begins again.

The question is can we change the system through peaceful and political means before change is forced upon it through violent revolution?

[RKP5637]

68. Yes, these cycles have occurred over and over, as the one we are going through now. Hopefully the

model will be modified through peaceful and political means. One troubling aspect today, I think, is there are great technological tools of propaganda, surveillance and suppression that really did not exist in earlier times.

[DaveJ]

24. Freedom Died

Corporations will try to make everything run as efficiently as possible, but nowhere in their financial formulas do they take into account retirement or freedom overall.

To them "retirement" means working at a lower paying job. People try to save, but few earn the $1-3 million needed for a comfortable retirement. So they will end up collecting a few hundred extra a month if they are lucky enough to save something. Then they will need to get low paying part time jobs as Walmart greeters or McDonalds cashiers just to get by, and corporations will call that life retirement.

They are evil SOBs.

[AZ Progressive]

27. The only solution is that there need be SOME body / organization that can be powerful enough...

...to take back the government and/or stand up to the corporations. There needs to be an organization that has the cooperation of millions and millions of the American people to work together to do things like boycotts, general strikes, and ultimatums to the federal government and the corporations to get them to stand down or change.

[CarmanK]

28. WAR against DEMOCRACY waged by the POLITICAL DONOR CLASS.

The rest of the world, that is different. But "We the People" are at fault for letting politicians believe that they are elevated above their constituents when elected and that "they know what is best". So called public servants enter the DONOR DEPENDENT class and think nothing of violating their oath of office. Almost, seems pathetic, that many take that OATH on a BIBLE. Rather ironic wouldnt you say.
We the People are in the midst of a war, we did not ask for, but we certainly are paying for in loss of DEMOCRACY and access to the benefits of Adam smith Capitalism as opposed to CORRUPT corporate capitalism. The good is that the GOP/TPARTY in all their arrogance have exposed themselves and their true vision for AMERICA. And we the people, have the time to reject those extreme anti-social justice policies. Elections do have consequences, it is just that for some time now, Many of americans have forgotten that DUTY as part of their citizenship.
We will have to stay vigilant. We already, saw how the MI legislature submarined the womens rights groups by including some anti abortion aspects to the Rt to wk law. We the people got suckered and it is time to stop the development of NORQUISTAN and restore USA.

[RKP5637]

69. One good aspect is I do think more Americans are becoming more aware that they can not sit

back and just let the country cruise along, that at minimal they need to vote and to pay close attention as to what whom they vote for is really all about.

[progressoid]

29. ...

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

30. This is scary considering it is 30 or so years ago..........

[RKP5637]

70. Yep!!! n/t

[AZ Progressive]

31. If America stopped playing the game of capitalism...

America bought into the game of capitalism, and in the game of capitalism, the people who have the most money has the most power (because money is ultimately just a currency of power, the power to get other people to do things if they are willing and able to do such things.)

IF America stopped playing the game of capitalism and basically rebelled against it, the rich would lose their power because their power only exists if people recognize the system of capitalism. Noone truly has any power beyond their inherent talents and abilities if other people don't cooperate with them, thus the only real power that humans have is the ability to persuade and otherwise influence other human beings to do what they want them to do (and that is done through money in the economic world, and also money can buy persuasion power as in the propaganda machine of the republican party) . Money is the currency of power, and in the game of capitalism the people who have the most money have the most power, and thus the rich thrive on their money for power (the definition of a plutocrat is someone who derives their power from their wealth) but if people refused to recognize such money or do work or business with them, their power will go away (of course though, this would not work if there's still a large amount of the people who would remain sympathetic to the rich.)

[RKP5637]

71. Yep, money is the leverage they employ. Money talks and has power, the rest of us mostly talk. If

the worshiping of money decreased, the influence and power of money would also decrease.

[raouldukelives]

35. As Earth has been become corporate. America has become it's middle managers.

Answering to bosses in the Cayman Islands, China and Dubai. All more invested in the system and thus willing to do more to protect the money. To protect the benefits they receive while turning a blind eye to the consequences of their actions. In many cases still holding on to some imaginary idea of themselves as socially conscious while they pocket the dividends and income for the task of turning their back on the world, its people, its natural resources and its wildlife.
It really is, and always will be, about the money. Sure votes count for something, the overwhelming will of the people can be a thing of beauty. But I'm afraid nothing speaks louder than money. The phrase "Put your money where your mouth is." has always stuck with me. I find it very apropos. And I feel the flip side is just as true, your mouth is where your money is. Or as Jesus would say. "Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Nothing in America, in the world, speaks louder for you than the choices you make with your own money. Not your vote, not your dissertations on modern society, not your rants at the family picnic. Its time for those who not only wish of change, but who demand it, to stop putting that money in the mouths of the Romney's and Trump's of the world and put it where your heart is.

[RKP5637]

72. +++ 1,000 +++ n/t

[fozzieferocious]

37. United States (by Hasbro)

Anyone else notice the mildly frightening similarities between how every single Monopoly game seems to end and the direction this country seems to be headed?

You know... how one player inevitably gets the best properties and begins stacking them with houses, pummeling the other players with bills. Then when they're finally able to put hotels on each of them the other players are dropping like flies, just trying to pass Go or barter their crap properties. If the baron is nice enough they'll even cut you a break when you land on Boardwalk or give you a little money to keep you in the game longer (credit cards?).

Seriously....

We're about to become the most socially and economically unequal "developed" country in the world if we aren't already. Wealth inequality is the worst it's been and still getting worse. The Middle Class is getting more and more pinched. The Lower Class is growing and gets shat on daily. How much longer can they prop this game up before everyone just says FUCK IT and the pitchforks are raised and guillotines rolled out?

Sadly, I bet a lot of the crazily armed right-wing nut jobs are so indoctrinated that they would rush to their defense to stop the red tide of "Communists".

[RKP5637]

73. Sadly, I think your last sentence is unfortunately quite true ... they run not on facts but

emotions, and those emotions are created through propaganda and disinformation. Nothing is easier to control than a willfully ignorant mind.

[Initech]

39. Companies are making money hand over fist but we're suffering. What is wrong here?

[RKP5637]

74. I guess it's just the ultimate fulfillment of the American Dream (for some). ... but not

with my sig. line.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. :Why not just skip the middlemen and elect boards of directors and CEOs.

That way we could pay them off directly and not have to worry about taxes and budgets and campaigns and other frivolities

[HiPointDem]

50. damn good idea. cut the middlemen, let us give our graft directly!!

[dixiegrrrrl]

78. What??!! you want to impoverish all those who

make a fortune out of campaigns?
Good lord..elections and campaigns are big business. All that campaign money goes to lots of marketing, polling agencies, it gives radio and tv blabbermouths...uhh...news people....something to talk about...it creates marketing for networks to compete over and get advertising dollars..
cars are rented, planes are rented, and in Newt's case, he could even hawk his book on his campaign.
Then there is the after campaign market, where the tell all books are printed, lucrative speaking tours, and in some cases, nice consultant fees.
Plus, don't forget, as Colbert showed, it only takes 2 legal paper steps to turn a candidate's PAC funds into an account that is completley tax free and untraceable, leaving the funds totally in the candidate's pocket.

[Iggy]

52. Errr, You Mean Ralph Nader

is correct?!

That won't play well around here..

[Le Taz Hot]

54. It "plays" just fine "around here"

to those who don't respond to dog whistles.

[RKP5637]

55. ...

[Iggy]

79. Hah hah!

I'm scared, too...

[99th_Monkey]

76. We allowed ourselves to get distracted by shinny things

"The manufacturing aristocracy of our age first impoverishes and then
debases the men who service it, and then abandons them to be supported
by the Charity of the public. ... The friends of democracy should keep
their eyes anxiously fixed in this direction; for it ever a permanent
inequality of conditions and aristocracy again penetrate into the world,
it may be predicted that this is the gate by which they will enter".
~Alexis de Tocqueville (1832)

[RKP5637]

77. Definitely!!! So many have said it so well in the past, and so many lessons learned in

the past. And I fear we're walking down that road again having forgotten or never having learned the history ...