The vast majority of men have never raped nor thought about raping anyone.

[Kurska]

Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:50 AM - Edit history (2)

And the vast majority of rapists are serial predators who rape more than once. I also highly doubt there are many people here who view rape as anything other than a horrible crime that deserves to be punished to the fullest extent. Rapist are scum who put their basest desires above the rights and well being of other people. I have nothing but disgust and loathing for any man who rapes a woman.

Our society has such a problem with rape, because we've built a culture of silence around it. This culture of silence allows a minority of sexual predators to rape again and again without being caught, I've read that fewer than 85% of rapes are even reported. We have this shameful culture of silence because, as a society we far to often don't take rape seriously when it is reported or even go as far to shame the victims who do report it.

I have no doubt that, to a man, all the men here are allies of women, who understand how important it is to end rape. Is it unreasonable to ask that we keep that in mind when talking about the male gender and rape?

[nomorenomore08]

1. Trying to define the parameters of someone else's conversation rarely works too well... Just FYI...

Otherwise I have no particular problem with this OP.

[LeftyMom]

2. Having read here this week, I am not convinced at all that all of the men here are allies of women

or opposed to rape. Not by a long shot.

Because I saw an awful lot of rape excusing, rape minimalizing, and high fiving of admitted rapists, and people who get it don't do that.

But I'm just one of those overreacting women who doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about, so I'm sure some men will be along to explain it to me.

[nomorenomore08]

3. Which is why, as I said, trying to define the parameters of discussion for others is not a good idea

Not everyone sees things the same way, to say the least.

[LeftyMom]

7. Instead of "discuss"ing what have experienced, people need to shut their mouths and open their ears.

There's been entirely too much of men telling women what to think about rape going on this week.

Here's a great idea: if nobody's ever put their dick in you without your consent, shut the fuck up about rape.

[Kurska]

10. But don't one way conversations only go so far?

No one on this planet is capable of really learning by just sitting there and listening. I think the way forward on rape is a real open and honest conversation about this horrible problem.

Do you share that view or am I off base?

I think there is a huge difference between a man telling a woman what to think about rape and a man actively engaged curious and questioning about the phenomenon and what he can do about it.

[LeftyMom]

13. Conversations only move forward when everybody involved knows what they're talking about.

You can bring me into a conversation on grammar in Bantu languages but it's not a good idea if you actually want to get anywhere. Best to involve people who know the subject if you want to get anything done, and people who don't know are better off listening.

[Kurska]

18. Most informative conversations happen between unequally informed parties.

Have you ever been in lecture with a professor who actively encourages student questions and engagement vs. who suppresses it? Don't you believe the same principal would apply when talking about any subject, including even horrible ones like rape?

[LeftyMom]

20. That's not what's going on here.

Right now we have a situation a bit more like white people trying to explain racism to people of color, or get them to stop talking about their experience racism in terms they find uncomfortable.

There's a level of dismissiveness which is inherently problematic, but especially so in a larger societal context of unequal power.

[Kurska]

22. Do you feel like my op is dismissing anyone?

I never intended to contest that women are far more knowledgeable about rape than men.

Do you agree that men have a responsibility to prevent rape? How can they do that if they aren't able to talk about it and ask questions?

[nomorenomore08]

24. I think you probably missed out on some of these threads.

Particularly the one with the heading "Meet the Predators." A poster on that one tried to make it all about his own feelings/ego and went on and on with self-centered, long-winded posts despite being told over and over that he was out of line.

[Kurska]

26. I'm student and it is finals week, I most certainly have.

But shame on him, for trying to make rape about him.

I don't believe that changes the fact that if men have a responsibility to stop rape, that at some point they are going to have to express their views and feelings on it. That doesn't mean they should make it about them, but you can't expect someone who is forever silent about a topic to be really engaged in it, yes?

[nomorenomore08]

30. I agree with you totally. Just pointing out why some female posters might be on the defensive.

And why I, even as a man, have gotten a little fed up with the handful of narcissistic crybabies I've encountered here.

[obamanut2012]

53. Men, unless they have been raped, do not get "views" on rape

There are no "views." My God.

[obamanut2012]

52. Yes, I find your OP dismissive

and inaccurate on several points.

[nomorenomore08]

23. +1

Same point I was trying to make - namely, you can't tell people how *they* should talk about things that affect *them* more than *you*. Attempting to do so will only aggravate them, and rightly so.

"There's a level of dismissiveness which is inherently problematic, but especially so in a larger societal context of unequal power." - Very well stated.

[bettyellen]

37. men are suggesting slogans, rewriting posters and saying ANY education directed at men is

a horrible thing. Also dismissing stats, and saying it's hopeless- we just need to teach women to be more careful.
But not careful around the guys they know (responsible for 90% of rapes) because treating men like potential rapists hurts their feelings too much.
All of this, off the top of their heads, delivered as if it's a gift. I loooove the guys who tinker with slogans and "fix" posters because we're doing it all wrong, then admit they think outreach is a total waste of time. But they want to come in and over see the effort, LOL! Did we ask for support or managers?

[obamanut2012]

54. There have been several posters who have used MRA bullet points

I mean, literally lifted from MRA sites. These posts have been in the most infamous threads the past week.

[bettyellen]

61. Well you could tell quite a bit was cut and pasting because

A lot of it sounded nonsensical- not really replying to what was said.
The "all men" word game comes to mind.
Also also a lot of spewing extreme Libertarian talking points. Honestly, it appeared they had no idea what they were saying. So cutting and pasting would explain a lot.

[obamanut2012]

62. it would, wouldn't it?

[nomorenomore08]

14. It's just that some have hijacked the "rape threads" as a forum for their own egos.

As if their hurt feelings (or feelings, period) mattered more than, er, *profound physical and psychological trauma*.

[bettyellen]

15. please relook at all the thread jacking, because you're giving some people

a ton of credit they do not deserve. My jaw dropped at engaged and curious- not a whole lot of that here. Loads of people seeking anything BUT an honest conversation, thread jacking and trying to prevent an open exchange.

[nomorenomore08]

11. No disagreement here.

nt

[Bonobo]

17. Please don't use the "D" word. nt

[mythology]

32. If you've never been a soldier shut the fuck up about war?

If you've never owned a business, shut the fuck up about business taxes?

These would be rather silly things to say. Other people allowed to have an opinion, whether you like it or not.

[LeftyMom]

33. I'd listen to what they had to say.

There are a whole lot of men on DU telling women to shut up about rape because it hurts their delicate little feefees.

[mercuryblues]

48. wow

I would never presume to know more than a soldier, nor would I insist that their view of the military is all wrong. What I would do is take their experiences into consideration. Not dismiss them out of hand as being trivial, irrelevent or none of my concern.Why do some men find it so hard to listen to what women are saying about rape, without getting defensive about it? Being dismissive, what women say exists, really doesn't exist because they have never seen it. Why can't men trust what women are saying?

[obamanut2012]

56. Never been a solider? You don't get to say what combat was like

And that one wasn't really traumatized by being shot at and terrorized, and that they should just get over it and forget about it... if it was really combat anyway. It may have just been "combat." I mean, is it really combat of no IEDs are involved?!

Understand LeftyMom's analogy now?

And, no, people are not allowed to have an "opinion" on rape. My God.

[Kurska]

66. The majority of reseachers who professionally study PSTD from combat are not veterans

I know a few of these people actually. Granted some of them indeed happen to be veterans who went on to earn their degrees in clinical psychology, but most of them aren't.

[Squinch]

78. And you are a researcher? Have you made a study of rape? Or are you a guy on a message board?

I'm sorry, but that's a really silly argument.

I have never heard of a PTSD researcher being insulted when a PTSD sufferer discusses his condition.

I have never heard of a researcher taking it personally when a PTSD sufferer says, "the culture that sent me to war bears a lot of responsibility for how I feel now."

If a researcher took that as a personal insult, he would be really dumb, wouldn't he?

[HiPointDem]

39. You're the only person I've seen telling people to shut up, actually.

[bettyellen]

41. Well then, you've missed a fuck ton.

Because her characterization is spot on.

[sigmasix]

42. what if

What if a woman has raped me by forcing her vagina onto my penis? And she did it to me when I was a child, too! Several times. Will I be allowed to hold any opinion about the subject of rape, even though I have testicles?
Am I allowed to hold an opinion on my own rape? ...or is there a disqualification for males that have been raped by females? Do you think I deserved the continual rapes because I am a male? Was the life-long emotional and relationship problems that I experienced as a result of the rapes something I deserved? How about the years of shame and depression, was that something I deserved or made-up? Or maybe I deserved it for being dressed the wrong way? No matter how you slice it, according to some closed-minded "female rights" advocates, the rape that I experienced is something to be trivialized and doubted. Why must male victims of female rapists almost always be treated so poorly from "feminists" that claim to be interested in understanding and destroying rape culture- as long as we all agree that it is a crime committed by males ONLY.
As I have mentioned before; feminists must begin to take the damage caused to men by female rape (exploitation and dehumanization) as another important part of the understanding of power and violence involved in the rape of one human being by another.
To ignore and trivialize the suffering of your fellow human because of thier gender is sick and twisted, even when the person doing the trivialization is a caring, intelligent feminist. I have been mocked and demeaned many times by so-called feminist rape activists when I tell them my story. On more than one occassion some feminists have accused me (the rape victim) of lying about the rapes, and one "feminist" told me that I deserved it and laughed at my tears and honesty. When a male questions the sincerity of a female rape victim, he is mostly presented as a misogynist by some feminist activists.
Isn't it time we stop pretending that women are incapable of victimizing men in this way? And it is surely past time to admit that there are some feminists that do not want to get rid of sexism and violence, they just want to reverse it to have revenge on men in general. And there's nothing as hurtful or anti-feminist as a person that wants to punish and demean someone that has been raped, just because the victim is a man and the rapist is a woman.
I know I will recieve all sorts of flames and claims that the rape of a man by a woman is a different sort of act that does not qualify as proof of the intention to dehumanize me or exploit me on the part of my rapist; but those rapes did to me the same thing rapes do to women.
Go ahead and trivialize my rape experience and make the claim that I am just trying to distract the discussion from women's rape experiences because I am a "dudeguy". I am sure that some feminists will feel that they showed those horrible men a lesson then...

[LiberalLoner]

76. I would never ever trivialize what you have

Gone through. I'm sorry for what you have endured and for others not responding with compassion.

I feel sick inside that this was done to you. It is more than wrong. Harming a child is the epitome of evil IMO.

It's harder in some ways for male victims because they do so often get the awful reactions you got from people.

We tell our stories because we want better for those who are vulnerable now. We want this stuff to just stop.

The last few days have been hard for you too I figure.

Rape isn't okay. Ever.

[XemaSab]

4. You're just hysterical

Your lady parts are overriding all rational thought and logic on this issue.

Go take a Xanax and let the menfolk worry about how to protect their women.

[obamanut2012]

57. (i heard she was PMSing)

All the vegan twinkie wrappers in her inbox.

[nomorenomore08]

5. And I agree that there seem to be some real creeps around at DU.

I shall say no more, lest I get piled on...

[Kurska]

8. It is impossible to overreact to rape, it is a horrible crime.

And I certainly consider anyone who would excuse or minimize a rape as fit for this community.

On edit: Sorry typo completely changed the meaning of this post, fixed it.

[bettyellen]

12. and most of the unfit are telling us "how" we should talk to them, same as you.

There's waaaay too many men who are NOT supportive, using "how we talk" as an excuse for their non support.
It's bullshit.
Please stop putting their feelings front and center... because no matter how we phrase anything, they find an excuse not to listen or support. Let's stop pandering to their bullshit, and instead tell them to grow up and deal with the conversation or go.

[Kurska]

16. I view open, honest and respectful dialogue is the best way to reach anyone about any topic.

Do you believe that is a poor strategy in this case?

[bettyellen]

19. Oh I do. But if you go through these threads you'll see evidence of many people there to

jack up the threads and play word games.
They don't deserve anyone walking on eggshells because they aren't listening for anything but statements to try and pick apart and stir shit. They are playing games, and someone should write an OP about how THEY post.

[Kurska]

21. If you give up on that noble goal because of disrupters, then doesn't that mean they won? n/t

[bettyellen]

27. If you give lip service to their "concerns" about how we talk about this.... the conversation

gets hijacked. So even though I loved the rest of your OP.... I can't get behind any expectation we should treat guys as delicate flowers, or give any lip service to the inevitable tangents about semantics or stereotyping. Because it stops becoming an honest discussion.

[Kurska]

28. Lets say a man has a real and genuine concern that the conversation is stereotyping him as a rapist.

I'm certainly not saying that concern is correct or even at all rational. But you still want to reach that man correct? You want him to understand just how serious rape is, yes? How can you do that without addressing that concern? Obviously it isn't the main part of the conversation, but is it still not worth talking about if only to put those concerns to rest so that he can focus on doing what he needs to do end rape?

If you don't do that it seems like the only thing you can do is give up on that person as hopeless.

[bettyellen]

36. if his ego concerns are more important than my health and welfare to the extent that's all he wants

to discuss.... Then he's not worth us worrying about his ego, because there is no way to put those concerns to rest. It never ends with those whose ego is priority one.

They typically *angrily* resist all attempts at education - insist rape stats are inflated, and rapists are hopeless socio paths so we should just give up doing anything except asking the girls to be careful. I wish I was making this up. But there are hundreds of posts from men all about their hurt feelings, and when you press them further- that is what you get. No interest in support, just their own selves. I have to say their ego concerns are something we should not indulge.

But, you give it a shot, and let me know how it goes.

[Squinch]

79. You are assuming that the goal here is to convince men of something. It isn't.

If you are, as you say in your OP, on the side of women, you already know that rape is serious. It isn't our job to make you understand anything. The mindset that says that we need to make you understand that rape is very serious and that we need to be careful of your feelings when discussing rape is maddening.

All week long, men have been posting about how lots of rape talk makes them feel like they are being accused of something. Here's what I want to say to that: Get the fuck over it! Grow the hell up!

Unless you are a man who has been raped, or who wants to lend support to people who have been raped, THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU AND YOUR FEELINGS!

You aren't a rapist. We all get that.

Now we all, together, have something important to discuss, so get past your need to make this about you and either participate constructively, or go the hell away.

But don't dare tell me that I need to convince you of anything, or teach you about how serious rape is. Get over yourselves!

[LiberalLoner]

55. Me too.....+1

[Lightbulb_on]

60. Can you give an example of someone who is "pro-rape?"

[niyad]

6. Rapist are scum who put their basest sexual desires about the rights and well being of other people

rape is not about sex, it is about power and control.

[Kurska]

9. You're right, I'll edit my OP

Thank you for pointing that out.

[Bonobo]

25. Isn't saying "basest sexual desires" also saying it is about sex?

Sounds that way to me.

Can't it be both about sex and about power and control?

Isn't that being more realistic and dare I say honest about the reality?

Saying it is about both does not, it seems to me, diminish the horrid nature of rape.

[niyad]

38. if it were about sex, there are other outlets available.

[Bonobo]

40. There are other outlets for violence too. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

29. You know, that's pretty easy to say

however I think that it's a lot harder to argue that a lot of men men might not take advantage of a woman who was intoxicated and in no position to resist or demur. Especially if they themselves had had a few drinks. You're using a narrow definition of "rape" here that means "premeditated forcible and violent sexual assault". Most rape is acquaintance rape; the classic example here is the drunken college-campus frat party with guys who won't take no for an answer, who ply a girl with booze to lower her resistance and take advantage of it, and you know, I would have to say based on what I've observed, what I've seen first-hand, that that sort of behaviour is a lot more commonplace than what you're probably calling "rape" here (statistics also back this up, one in four college-age women will be the victim of rape or attempted rape by an acquaintance).

And I sincerely doubt, as a man, that as many men here as you think are 'allies of women'; I was personally pretty disgusted to observe the number of people saying "oh well fucking a woman who's asleep isn't rape if there was consensual sex before that!" re the Julian Assange case, for instance.

[Kurska]

31. You certainly won't find me among the number who say raping someone who is asleep is okay.

I had a friend who was seriously internally damaged because their boyfriend thought it would be "Romantic" to wake them up by inserting into them while they are sleeping. Turns out sticking it inside someone who is unconscious is not only rape, but stupid and dangerous. The sleeping body is not prepared for intercourse and it can cause real harm.

[Spider Jerusalem]

34. Congratulations.

But I was not talking about you; I was citing an example to challenge your assertion that "I have no doubt that all the men here are allies of women".

[Kurska]

35. Hey man, I'm agreeing with the thing that seemed the most important to you.

No need for the sarcasm.

[Squinch]

77. But you did say

"I have no doubt that, to a man, all the men here are allies of women, who understand how important it is to end rape."

I would guess that many women who have been reading posts here this week are not in agreement with that.

Many men here, certainly. Most men here, probably. All men here? No way.

[obamanut2012]

59. good post -- op worthy

[Democracyinkind]

43. I'm not so sure anymore...

Surely, most men aren't rapists. There are certain subsets in our (and other) cultures that are conducive to rape though, and I think that was the original point of discussion when it all started this weekend.

I've seen so much hand-wringing, second-guessing posts about rape by men in the last days that I have come to think that I have seriously overrated what it means to post here. I clearly have allot less in common with some of the male posters here than I ever could have imagined.

A big part of getting over or learning to live with being a rape victim is other people's reaction to the subject when it comes up, whether intentionally or not. Some of the male "but but but" posts in these thread just eerily remind me of all the people around me "but but buttting" about what had taken place.... Not careful enough. Naive... Asked for it... Provoked it.. Caused it... The kind of existential betrayal by humanity felt in those moments.... Is not easily dealt with when you discover that they're the fucking norm in discussions about rape... 20 years after... On your favorite place in the whole world wild web, the internet family, so to speak. You'd think.. that things would have changed. To think that they haven't, here, of all places... Well... Seems this is just another discussion board after all. Not less, but certainly not more, anymore.

[redqueen]

45. So very well said. nt

[Chorophyll]

46. Thank you for this post. Really.

[LiberalLoner]

58. + a million. Thank you.

[Chorophyll]

44. I'm really getting tired of DU men explaining rape to me.

It's not true that the vast majority of rapists are serial predators. Most rapes are committed by men who are well known to their victims. Boyfriends rape, husbands rape, fathers rape, and friends rape.

Here's what rape is: if the person you're with does not give clear, enthusiastic consent, and you have sex with them anyway? You're a rapist. Obviously not everyone understands this.

I cannot understand why some men here were SO OFFENDED by the suggestion that it might be wise to instruct boys and young men about what rape is and how to avoid doing it.

[FedUpWithIt All]

49. It's too bad polls are no longer anonymous

I'd be curious to see how many of the woman here on DU were sexually threatened, intimidated or abused by people that they should have been able to trust.

Personally, i can name well over a dozen men, who have touched me or threatened me in a sexual manner, since i was 8 years old. These were relatives, mother's boyfriends, schoolmates, boyfriends.

I suspect my experience is not out of the norm.

I realize that not all men are rapists, but when women have experience as much negative behavior from men, as many of us have, it matters little. The simple fact is that many women feel safer if they view men, in general, with a level of suspicion until they have cause to feel secure.

[Chorophyll]

50. Ugh, I'm so sorry you went through all of that.

I think what some DUers don't get is that while most men won't commit a rape per se, we live in a rape culture. Women are leered at, groped, and commented upon from an early age. And not always in a complimentary way. I can remember walking down the street with my friends and having random men assess us in detail, saying things like "I'll take the one in the middle," as if we were unthinking objects who had no say in the matter. And by the way, we were in a GROUP, and not dressed provocatively. So there's your "self-defense" argument.

So if we're not teaching young men how to behave at home -- which means no leering, no comments, no groping, no threatening, and of course no raping -- where should it be taught? I vote school, along with health and sex education. I don't see how any reasonable person could object to that.

[Kurska]

67. "It's not true that the vast majority of rapists are serial predators." Incorrect

You have two facts are are confusing them.

Most rapes are committed by people known to the victim. It is also true that most rapes are committed by serial predators. 70%+ of rapists will admit to having raped more than once (key word admit, the real percentage is thus estimated to be much higher), often far more times than once.

Ergo most rapes are committed by serial predators that are familiar to their victims.

I'd like to point out the irony of telling me not to try to inform you about rape and then getting your facts wrong.

[Chorophyll]

73. Point out as much as you like, Kurska.

I'll admit that I responded to the word predator as it's used in common parlance (the stranger waiting in the dark alley.) Of course it doesn't have to mean that at all. I do suspect, however, that I'm not alone in my interpretation, and at first glance your post looks like another piece of apologia. ("Predators are rapists, not regular men.&quot

Were there not 97 posts by other outraged men floating around GD, perhaps I wouldn't be on autopilot about this.

[Dokkie]

71. Enthusiatic consent?

Really? then by that token, I have been raped a few times now without me even knowing it and I am a guy. Same way no is no, consent is consent, enthusiastically given or not.

[Chorophyll]

74. Well, maybe you should think about that a bit longer. nt

[Dokkie]

75. I have a new standard for rape

A strong man(stronger than the woman) having sex with a female is rape and vice versa. Because it cannot be verified if the weaker mate only said yes because she is afraid of her life.

So from today onward, that is what I consider as rape. So its is artificial insemination for all. Good luck.

[Bake]

47. And yet when Assange is accused of rape, of course he's innocent ...

Bake

[bettyellen]

63. Disruptive OT BS. There was very divided opinion that.

[obamanut2012]

51. No one has accused all men of being rapists

I am tired of that being bandied about. Posters need to quit saying that. It isn't true, and it has a negative effect on dialogue on this issue.

And, we have had admitted rapists on DU, just this past week, as well as other male posters being rape apologists, etc. So, no, not all DU males are on our side, although I recognize many are allies.

[bettyellen]

64. Yep. They're hollering about stuff that never happened.

[a la izquierda]

65. I was raped at 16...

and I think it's fucking awesome that every time I log on to DU, I see another 10 threads about rape.

[Dokkie]

68. I dont know if I am alone on this

But I have actually thought of raping some one. How, where, how I would escape and all. But then again, I have thought about so many other things that I would never do in a million years like robbing a bank, winning the lottery etc. I try to put it out of my mind, but every once in a while, my mind wanders into such areas.

Some please tell me this also happens to them

[Kurska]

69. Well do you believe that rape is wrong?

Or do you just not it because you're afraid you'd get caught

And was it serious consideration or just an academic exercise? Sometimes people contemplate horrible crimes just because they are curious if they could figure out a way to get away with them.

[Dokkie]

72. Ofc not, I am not a wild animal

Last edited Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:28 AM - Edit history (1)

In fact, I wouldn't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me. Actually, it started after taking a self defense call, all the instructor talked about was rape since then it has been coming off and on.

[bettyellen]

80. You have rape fantasies and blame them on a rape prevention teacher....

Because they brought up the word rape too frequently for your taste?
Well yeah then, there's nothing wrong with that- all this talk of rape "makes you feel......"

Get help. Seriously, even if this is a sick joke and you're a RW troll you need to - at a minimum- grow the fuck up.
If you're not joking/ baiting, the above advice is still sound.

[WinkyDink]

70. Well, right about now I'm thinking of slapping someone upside his head. J/S.