Father tries to cut BB pellet out of son's skull after mishap

[proud2BlibKansan]

After a 12-year-old boy playing with a BB gun accidentally shot himself in the head, his father tried to cut it out of his skull with a utility knife, and waited a day before taking him to a hospital, Wichita police said Friday.

Police took the boy into protective custody after the father finally took him to Via Christi Hospital on St. Francis, said Lt. Doug Nolte, a police spokesman.

The shooting happened Wednesday in the 1700 block of North Minnesota, northwest of 13th and Grove; the report wasn’t made to police until a day later, Nolte said.

The injury was not life threatening, Nolte said. The child will remain in protective custody pending the completion of the investigation.

No one has been arrested yet, Nolte said. But the father, 57, could be arrested later, he said.


Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/11/30/3941759/boy-in-protective-custody-after.html#storylink=cpy

[riderinthestorm]

1. Bet they don't have health insurance

I'm not excusing the dad but I wonder if this family has coverage.

I've self-doctored and self-medicated, even with insurance....

Really sad story all around.

[PD Turk]

3. That was my first thought too

It's rough not having coverage. I don't have insurance and I've been going though bouts with kidney stones for about the last 18 months. It's been a rough ride sometimes with no help from the docs.

[RKP5637]

4. OMG, kidney stones! That can be very painful. I only had one once and it passed on its own. I guess

drink lots and lots of water and hope for the best. This is so unfortunate to hear.

[PD Turk]

9. Lemonade

Strong lemonade is a great dissolver of the kidney stones.

The big one was last fall, had to go to the ER for that one. The urologist gave me a few tips on how to break them up and make them pass, been treating them myself ever since. Rough way to live but its part of being in the working poor class in the good ol USA these days

[RKP5637]

11. I never knew that, good information to know!!! n/t

[Tess49]

28. What did your Doc tell you regarding breaking up stones? I've had many.

I usually just drink lots of water. How strong should the lemonade be? Help, please!

[dae]

152. I and several friends who had severe kidney stones started drinking 1-2 large glasses of water

with a half of freshly squeezed lemon/glass/day.
I had them for almost 15 years, and 2 procedures to remove large stones stuck in urethra. Since using the lemon water I have not had any other problems in over 3 years.

[Tess49]

267. Thanks for the information. I will try this. n/t

[dixiegrrrrl]

57. What few tips did he give you?

Besides lots of lemonade?

[Maine-ah]

146. no health insurance here....

angry gallbladder that I'm not going to hospital for until I finally have a bout where the pain doesn't go away. I've been using a home remedy of apple cider vinegar once a day for a couple of weeks now. Seems to help.

[Shankapotomus]

7. Yea, well I see your self-doctored and self-medicated

and raise you a self surgery while under anesthesia.

[HiPointDem]

37. i bet so too.

[Liberal_in_LA]

145. my thought also

[pnwmom]

188. I bet the father knew he was breaking local law by allowing the discharge of a BB gun

in city limits.

He didn't want to have to tell the doctor what had happened, and thought if he removed the pellets himself, no one would have to know.

http://www.ksccw.com/showthread.php?t=9532

http://www.municode.com/resources/ga...d=14166&sid=16

Wichita city code

Sec. 5.88.020. Unlawful discharge of a firearm, air rifles, pellet guns and BB guns.
(1) It is unlawful for any person to discharge or fire any gun, pistol, air rifle, pellet gun, BB gun or any other firearm within the corporate limits of the city except at any properly licensed shooting gallery or upon a pistol range or at a gun club, either of which shall be approved by the chief of police.

[Lionessa]

2. So a father acts in a non-emergency way over a non-emergency injury,

and the police get involved? That seems like a bit much. As for trying to resolve the problem himself, how many of us currently poor and uninsured are making similar decisions to avoid medical, hospital, and doctor bills?

Over-night (where ER is the only choice) doesn't seem like a long time for such a minor injury if the boy himself was okay with it, which I notice the boy's perspective of the issue isn't mentioned.

[CreekDog]

6. the boy is 12

that's the answer to your question.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. +1

[Lionessa]

22. Which answers absolutely nothing of what I asked or commented on.

[CreekDog]

24. likewise, neither would the input of a 12 year old on the appropriateness of home-medical care

tell you whether or not it was appropriate or not.

what a 12 year old thinks of his treatment doesn't make it okay.

[Lionessa]

27. You misunderstand, if the child was in pain or anything like that, but

surprisingly scalps are relatively nerve-less, a thorn in a finger or toe hurts terribly worse than a scalp nick. So if the child was in pain or uncomfortable, then surely the dad would take him in. If not, then the kid is like, "yeah, it doesn't hurt, I can wait till morning." That's reasonable for a 12 year old to decide about his level of concern and discomfort..

[CreekDog]

29. taking a utility knife to a kid's scalp as proper care of an injured 12 year old?

there is so much fail in your posts, i don't know where to begin.

[phleshdef]

30. It was a very stupid thing to do. But I'm not sure its CPS worthy material.

[CreekDog]

31. maybe the father had no choice, since he couldn't drive the kid due to being drunk

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

63. I can't drive you to the hospital, the bartender took my car keys

But, I have a utility knife, a stapler, and some duct tape. Lemme finish this beer and we'll get you fixed right up.

If the BB was right at the surface, just under a layer of skin, maybe the father's action could make sense. No different that using a sharp knife or razor blade to dig out a splinter.

[kestrel91316]

68. Exactly. It's not rocket science, but OTOH it might not even be necessary.

BBs don't need to be dug out because they do no harm if left in. The only real concern is infection, and from a single BB it's hard to envision major trouble even it DOES get infected (with the added bonus that the BB will almost certainly fester out in that case).

[pnwmom]

190. The father's digging into the scalp with a utility knife probably put the boy

at more risk than the original injury.

[TheMadMonk]

142. My brother actually reattached an ear with the dog stapler...

...because they were shitfaced drunk and a hundred odd klicks from a town, doctor would have been further still.

His mate fell against a rough sawn post. Ear was hanging by a scrap of skin. Choice was pretty much finish the job or give it a go. The operation was a success.

[PABigDaddyDemocrat]

179. fecking hardcore

[pnwmom]

189. It's against the law to discharge a BB gun in the city limits. That alone is a CPS issue.

I think the father avoided treatment because he was afraid he'd get into trouble -- and therefore risked his son getting a very serious infection.

[Lionessa]

33. Utility could mean any number of types of kniives, and

as one poster on this thread points our, Mineral Man I think, his friend popped a bb out of his head at about the same age with a pocket knife. I don't think some people here realize how small a bb is. It'd be no more surgery than popping a stubborn zit, which I took sharp objects to all the time at that age. It's not like a deep bullet wound or anything.

[CreekDog]

38. Mineral Man defended a poster who considered raising a child like training a puppy

fail.

my god, are you actually discussing which knives the dad used to rationalize that it might be okay?

i thought way more of you before this bout of knuckleheadedness.

wow. it's bad enough to skip the ER, but the home surgical procedure which you are sidling up to defending is just beyond the pale for a sane person to defend.

[Lionessa]

72. Some aspects of animal training do in fact work well for young children.

I guess it's your over-reactive attitude that is a fail to me, not Mineral Man's ability to utilize what works vs what hysterical over-reactive folks gets hysterical and over-react to.

[Chemisse]

102. If it was just in the skin, I don't think it's such a big deal.

Like getting a deep-set sliver out.

Hopefully he sterilized the knife.

[Shining Jack]

131. "Mineral Man defended a poster who considered raising a child like training a puppy"

WTF? Are you serious?

[demwing]

162. No, it's not "beyond the pale" - that's just your opinion

and opinions dropped on an online forum are worth about as much as the paper and ink used to pen them.

Your insistence that people who disagree on this point are dumb or crazy is insulting and arrogant.

[obamanut2012]

44. Said by somepne who has never had a scalp injury

And, if you double down now and claim you have, I will

Scalp injuries hurt like hell, and what the father dd not only hurt the kid more, it was a pathway to infection. You don't dig a foreign object form a child's head with a frigging UTILITY KNIFE.

[Lionessa]

76. Depends on the injury, scalps really don't hurt much after the initial strike.

I have been around scalp injuries, bald husband who refused to wear a hat making regular runs into an unfinished attic. Enough said.

[pnwmom]

200. I have had a scalp wound. They can bleed like crazy. n/t

[Sekhmets Daughter]

81. Scalp injuries hurt like hell?

Perhaps for some people with low tolerance for pain. After a car accident I needed 12 stitches in my scalp. The doctor in the ER said they don't give any type of anesthesia for scalp wounds and proceeded to stitch. It wasn't at all painful...just a tiny bit of discomfort.

[Aerows]

169. I've had a few stitches placed in my scalp too

without anesthesia. I don't get this running to the doctor every single time you get a boo boo business. If it is infected, go. If it is a nail in your foot and you can pull it out, do so , douse it with peroxide and if it gets infected go to the damn doctor.

If it's something less traumatic like a banging your head on the car door because you have too many bags in your hand, uh, use some peroxide and move on.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

171. Neither do I...

Peroxide...is a staple around here. When the kids were growing up we had a house with 5 bathrooms, there was a bottle in each bathroom and one in the kitchen. My kids were very active!

[vaberella]

192. I don't know the pain threshold for 12 year olds though.

Not to mention---if I remember correctly they're heads are not fully developed adult heads. I think we should refrain from comparing our adult self to a 12 year old.

[Aerows]

195. I was once a twelve year old

I clearly remember getting hit with Hydrogen Peroxide for damn near any scrape, including getting glass dug out of my foot by my mother. My foot is just fine. She performed "surgery", OMG, and my foot didn't fall off.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

218. The reason scalp wounds

hurt less is because there are fewer nerve endings in the scalp. My son demonstrated an incredible tolerance for pain when he was just a toddler, so I don't know that tolerance is limited to adults. I was, however, simply addressing the issue of supposedly painful scalp wounds. I have no idea as to whether the father was being abusive, I think that depends on how deeply the BB was embedded. He was certainly careless or the wound would not have become infected. I have little patience with people who don't know how to keep a wound clean and infection free yet still wish to perform "surgery".

[demwing]

161. I've had a recent scalp injury

in a bicycling accident. Of course it hurt, but it wasn't the big fucking deal some here are making it seem...

The most painful injury I ever had was on my foot, when I stepped on a nail.Took forever to heal, and every step was painful. Minor cuts and scrapes to the scalp (depending on how much you have to deal with your hair) are way down the pain scale.

[Aerows]

170. Foot pain

is the worst. I speak with experience of also stepping on a nail. A damn roofing nail. Tooth pain runs a minor second. Scalp pain? Not even in the running to a hangnail.

[vaberella]

193. Hello...he's a 12 year old child. Not a grown ass man or woman. n/t

If the father did take the child to the hospital in the end...that means the kid must have been complaining of being in pain.

[Aerows]

196. Seriously, scalp pain is minor

Do you dye your hair, or know anyone that has dyed their hair?

[pnwmom]

205. The father wasn't successful in digging out the BB, so it must have been fairly deep.

And scalps tend to bleed -- a lot. Why did the father wait a whole day after the unsuccessful surgery before he brought the boy in? Did he wait till infection set in?

Was he afraid of CPS getting involved because he broke the law in allowing the boy to be handling the loaded BB gun?

[vaberella]

263. You're comparing a bb gun pellet to hair dye? You're kidding me right? n/t

[demwing]

228. It "must?" There are no other explanations? /nt

[pnwmom]

183. The father dug into his scalp with a knife. If the scalp needed digging into,

Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:03 AM - Edit history (1)

a medical professional should have been involved.

Flesh eating bacteria have made this a new world. One of my relatives had this recently as a result of a shallow wound. She went to bed thinking everything would be okay, but by the time she woke up -- with a serious infection-- it was touch-and-go to save her.

[Lionessa]

186. I know, lots of folks like to overreact to small injuries,

I'm heartened to see not everyone on DU is into medical hysteria at every little thing.

Have a good eve, now. Bless y'all.

[pnwmom]

199. I'm surprised to hear otherwise sensible people defending parents who ignore city law

banning the discharge of BB guns, allow children to be in the position to shoot themselves, and then -- instead of getting them treated by a doctor -- decide to dig out the BB's with a UTILITY KNIFE.

[demwing]

229. I'm surprised to hear otherwise sensible people reading only the headlines and sketchy details

of an incident before condemning the parent.

Wait, this is DU...what am I thinking? This shit happens all the damn time.

[Dorian Gray]

217. he cut

into his son's head? You don't find that problematic?

[demwing]

120. Doesn't answer a damn thing

give the man his son back, no one had a damn right to take that child under the stated circumstance

[CreekDog]

124. i didn't weigh in on the CPS action --i have been arguing what the dad did was stupid & dangerous

the dad not taking the kid to the ER and using a knife to take a BB out (that's quite a cut to make) is completely irresponsible.

this is 2012.

a BB is not a splinter.

[mythology]

20. When I was that age

I got attacked by a dog. He ripped the back of my knee open. My dad, swell human being that he was, made me bike home (around a mile) and stitched me up on the kitchen counter without any anesthetic. Granted he was a nurse, but he also did further damage making me bike home and even almost 20 years later I remember the feeling of the stitching going through my skin.

In my opinion, if it's more than a small cut, take the kid to the doctor if you can.

[CreekDog]

32. we have flesh eating bacteria now, cutting is best left to the professionals

jeez.

[Lionessa]

34. Problem is. . . there likelihood of acquiring MRSA is huge at a hospital compared to

any other environment.

So actually the opposite, not going to a hospital where those resistant flesh eating bacteria thrive, is the best option in that narrow scope.

[CreekDog]

36. a doctor at a home might be safer but not some dope with a utility knife

have you folks lost your marbles?

[Confusious]

71. We didn't lead sheltered lives

I've picked glass out of my foot with a knife before.

As long as the kid wasn't bleeding mildly or worse, which is hard to tell from the report, I don't see a problem with it.

Or the dad wasn't drunk and making a mess of it.

I've had worse. Like a big box staple caught in my finger at work. Wrapped it up, they sent me to urgent care, they said Nope, to small for stitches, wait for it to heal. Good gash too. From the middle of the top knuckle down below the top knuckle. a good inch and a half.

Hell I got a 45 caliber bullet through my leg and they just washed it up, put a bandage on it and sent my home with big horse pill Ibuprofen.

[Lionessa]

78. My second ex-hub shot himself through

the fleshy part of his hand between the thumb and first finger, they did the same, wrapped him up and sent him home, no stitches, not even anti-biotics, and he healed just fine.

[Confusious]

80. I still got a divot in the muscle in the back of my leg

Front is Ok, except for the scar.

Reminder of a terrifying night.

[Dorian Gray]

220. But he went to see a doctor about it?

Because that's what human beings do when something like a bullet or BB pellet enters their body!

[CreekDog]

173. taking the child to the ER makes him sheltered?

[Confusious]

213. For a minor cut, yea. nt

[CreekDog]

219. it's not a minor cut, it was an embedded BB

if you're going to comment on a completely different matter, maybe find another thread to do it in.

[Confusious]

222. If you're going to be a jerk,

Please find another thread to do it in, Mkay?

[Confusious]

223. I've had a 45 go through my leg

They sent me home with a bandage and some ibuprofen.(Oh, and a huge fucking bill)

What do you think a little BB gets? (A fucking huge bill and a lollipop)

[Aerows]

197. I know, I don't get this outrage

People are more than capable of deciding if they need to go to the doctor over an injury, and a kid that hit himself with his bb gun? Then dad does the rational thing and pulls it out, or tries to. That is where Dad messed up, because anyone can pop out a BB.

Still, he's not a bad Dad. He needs to learn First Aid.

[demwing]

121. you assume people are crazy because they don't agree with you?

why is your opinion (and that's all you've got - an opinion) so special?

[MineralMan]

129. As it turned out, no utility knive was used.

It was a scalpel. See the video in the link later in the thread. I have a box of sterile disposable scalpels, too. I have a suture kit. I use the scalpels for all sorts of things, and I have sutured up injuries to my cats. I always have sutures on hand. Why? Because I might sometime need them. We get snowed in here. Suppose I gash myself while using my snowblower or something and the roads are jammed with snow? That's why I have that stuff on hand. I know how to do suturing, too. It's one of those skills I learned when I used to do solo backpacking in the Sierra Nevada mountains. My surgical nurse sister taught me how to suture properly.

All of those medical supplies are available to anyone on Amazon.com. Go have a look.

[pnwmom]

212. And as it turned out, the surgery was unsuccessful. So it couldn't have been that superficial.

And yet, they waited another day before getting the boy to the hospital.

Also, it's illegal to discharge BB guns in the city and there are conflicting reports about whether the boy shot the gun or the father's buddy, Zeke, shot the gun; and about whether the father performed the unsuccessful surgery or Zeke.

In the end, it was Zeke's girlfriend who finally took him to the hospital.

So there was plenty of reason for CPS to try to get to the bottom of the situation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1918920

[Confusious]

215. Well, I have change my vote then

If the father had just been getting the BB out, and it was successful, with only a minor cut, then I would have to say getting the CPS involved wasn't necessary. But the original story didn't give that much info, either way, making it sound like it was a minor indecent.

Since it was unsuccessful, the dad should have taken the kid to the emergency or urgent care that day, not wait until Saturday.

[snooper2]

163. No, we just don't wig out and make huge deals out of little accidents...

I made a bomb when I was around 13, my mom picked little pieces of black gunpowder out of my face with tweezers for an hour

[obamanut2012]

45. wrong

[X_Digger]

58. *cough*

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/29/bacteria-deadly-hospital-infection/1727667/

[JohnnyRingo]

111. You're overly concerned.

The odds of needing a follow-up after a trip to the ER is just as likely as when a wound is tended to at home. I would imagine "flesh eating bacteria" is more prevelant at medical facilities than a kitchen. It's not like it spawns from meatloaf.

One is far more likely to catch something in a hospital waiting room than at home.

[CreekDog]

113. we're talking about cutting a hole big enough in a kid to get a bb out

you're underly concerned.

[MineralMan]

130. That's a pretty small hole, and there's already one where

the BB went in. Here's about the size of a BB:

[font size="5"]O[/font]

[CreekDog]

132. if I try to make you guys sound ridiculous, you always outdo me

each and every time you outdo me.

[demwing]

165. OMG! A BB is about 4.5mm (less, actually)

5mm is less that 2/10 of an inch.

PANIC!!!!

[CreekDog]

172. You FAIL when you say, "it's a small hole"

and i'm not sure i see a small one.

[demwing]

227. well good thing I didn't say that then, right?

I mean, it was at LEAST 4mm. That's a whole Pica! Maybe a Pica and a half!

That's a pretty fucking big deal!

[JohnnyRingo]

73. I agree....

Back in the early 70s when my sons were at that age, I wouldn't have thought twice about performing my own emergency "surgery" for something so minor as a bb under the skin. If I'd run them to the hospital for every minor mishap like this, I would have been under investigation for having one of my three adventurous boys at the ER every month. As it was, there were enough times when it was necessary.

I learned such home medical procedures from my own father for the same reason, and now my two surviving sons each have three kids of their own. They don't run to the hospital either unless a life is obviously in peril or if the injury is beyond the normal expertise of an average adult, like recently when one of my grandsons ran his skateboard into a tractor mower and ripped open his leg.

This story represents a mindset that is too close to a nanny state full of sissies for me, and it's my guess there will be no charges. I'm shocked enough police became involved at all. It's not like he put his eye out.

[cherokeeprogressive]

147. I had two prongs of a treble hook in the back of my head learning to overhead cast as a kid.

They were too deep to push through and cut the prongs off of so they could be backed out. How did my Dad and Grandpa know that? They TRIED to push them through first... wanna talk about HURT?

Guess how they got them out? Yep. Utility knife. Sterilized with a cigarette lighter. Damn I wonder what CPS would do if I told them my Grandpa had to hold me down while my Dad cut the hooks out? My Dad and Grandpa would still be in prison and I would have grown up in foster homes...

I still have the scars to this day. And yes, there was beer there.

I was about 10. It was the first time I ever heard the phrase "Rub some dirt on it, you'll be ok." I heard that from my Dad literally hundreds of times between that day and this.

This sure ain't the same world I grew up in...

[pnwmom]

182. Any father should know that a doctor should treat a head wound, and that antibiotics

and maybe a tetanus shot would be required.

I think the father was afraid of getting into trouble for giving a child access to a b-b gun.

[Lionessa]

184. Your theories have not shown to be

one's I take too much to heart.
Bless y'all.

[Confusious]

262. I had a staple rip a gash in my finger once

I asked about a tetanus shot.

It does no good after the fact.

Oh, had a 45 go through my leg.

In the emergency room they just poured cold water over it, slapped a bandage on it, and gave me some ibupropfen for the month.

[pnwmom]

265. Here's a WA state health department that recommends a tetanus booster after an injury.

Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:32 PM - Edit history (2)

I don't know why your doctor would have told you that it's too late after an injury has occurred. Maybe you waited too long to ask?

"Act in a timely manner

"Tetanus vaccine and/or TIG should be given soon after the injury. The incubation period varies from three to twenty­one days, with an average of eight days. Tetanus has occurred as soon as two days after the injury. Patients should be advised to get a tetanus booster, preferably the same day but no later than 72 hours after the injury."

http://www.whatcomcounty.us/health/pdf/tetanus_fax_feb08.pdf

[Confusious]

266. The finger gash was 20 years ago,

so things probably changed.

The gunshot wound was last year, so things probably haven't.

[Aerows]

194. Exactly. Non-emergency way

Over a non-emergency situation. Have any of these people ever been out of the city before? If you get a splinter in your finger on a hike, guess what has to happen, some one pulls it out.

If you get one in your foot? They might have to apply a blade and tweezers. And peroxide. This is simple first aid.

Have any of the people having conniptions ever been in the sticks before? If you are in the sticks, you can't just run down to the doctor's office in a second, no, it is an all day thing involving getting an appointment, waiting, not to mention travel out of the area where you got injured in the first place. Christ.

[elias7]

243. wrong- see post #242

[elias7]

242. absolutely wrong

skull penetration is by definition a skull fracture and unless thoroughly cleaned with high pressure irrigation (sometimes done in the O.R.) the risk for osteomyelitis is huge, with meningitis and brain abscess a distinct possibility.

[Ms. Toad]

248. There was no skull penetration.

The x-ray (available at a link in this thread) shows the bb did not penetrate the skull.

ETA: http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/Authorities-take-boy-from-father-after-BB-gun/LlYjpkxoWkKsfwf4uhRk9Q.cspx (1:12 - 1:06 - the video timer runs down, rather than up)

[Lightbulb_on]

5. Probably needed a leatherman...

Cutting tools and pliers to get the BB out...

Short of some information not apparent in the article, this is silly.

[JohnnyRingo]

98. Some "doctor" you are...

I raised three wild boys, and I can say with some authority that a Zippo sterilized #1 X-acto knife and a strong magnet is how a real Dr Dad digs a slug out of a boy. A nurse mom ready with a supply of gauze who can keep her tits out of the way is handy too (Thanx M*A*S*H). LOL.

I'm with you. I imagine there may have been other unreported circumstances revealed at the ER. Perhaps there were serious bruises and/or a confession best left out of the paper for now until an investigation is complete.

[noamnety]

128. Can you explain what you mean here?

"A nurse mom ready with a supply of gauze who can keep her tits out of the way ... "

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

136. generally quoted from MASH

Trapper: ... give me at least one nurse who knows how to work in close without getting her tits in my way

[RetroLounge]

138. Oh, look, it was a quote from MASH

and here you were all ready to be outraged...



RL

[JohnnyRingo]

157. Reference quote from MASH (1970).

Donald Sutherland when when he first arrived to take charge at the mobile medical unit, except he didn't say "mom". I added that to adapt the quote to the situation at hand (get it?). What did you think I meant?

People in the theater roared as I recall.

[Lightbulb_on]

141. Yeah... if you carry your local paramedic in your pocket...

Mine was the field expedient method to be used when your magnets and x-actos are out of reach or you are just to lazy to go home and get them.

[OnyxCollie]

8. He was inspired by the woman who painted Potato Jesus. nt

[Kaleva]

10. Without insurance, a visit to the emergency room is very expensive.

And i think the police are just following procedure in this particular case.

[loyalsister]

21. I can understand that concern

But, I find it hard to believe that the father really had the skills to evaluate this injury as thoroughly as it may have needed. Even the smallest injury can create cracks in a person's skull can easily create risks that are not obvious.

[MineralMan]

126. If that BB came from an ordinary BB gun,

there's no way it could have hurt the skull in any serious way. As it turns out, it didn't even reach the skull, but was imbedded in the scalp. There's a video with more information linked near the end of the thread. The boy was in no danger of any serious problems. The guy made a mistake in thinking he could remove the BB, because he didn't know the situation well enough. He shouldn't have tried. But it didn't work and the kid went to the ER and they removed the BB.

The overreaction of the police and CPS is the real issue.

[loyalsister]

134. Was it not obvious to the man

that anti-biotics might be required? Until he dug in, he had no way of knowing for certain how deep whether the BB could have caused damage to the skull.
I wonder what a study of death rates when home medical remedies are applied regularly would show.
There are plenty of good ideas for home treatment. But people should recognize their limits and definitely question their true knowledge of the seriousness of injuries and illnesses.
My dad had been using steam to treat his bronchitis for months if not years only to discover that he has emphysema.

[MineralMan]

12. Hmm...hard to say whether this rises to the arrest level.

When I was 13, I went deep sea fishing with my father on the family boat. Somehow, I got a 4-0 hook that went through the web between my thumb and forefinger. Hurt like hell. My father took a look at it, said "Hmph! You should be more careful." Then, he took a pair of heavy-duty wire cutters, cut the point and barb off the hook and backed the hook out with a pair of needle-nosed pliers. He then poured some hydrogen peroxide on it. It bled pretty good for a while, so I had to hold a towel on the wound while I continued to fish. I caught a nice big grouper that day.

It was first aid. By the time our fishing trip was over, the bleeding had completely stopped. He took another look at it and told me I was good to go. Sure enough, a few days later and it stopped hurting altogether.

There's a lot of home doctoring that goes on. Sounds like this was one of those cases to me. BB gun injuries were handled by us kids ourselves. No need to explain to parents how you got a BB imbedded in your ass. The handy boy scout knife was always good enough to dig it out. They never went very deep.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Oh come on. This wasn't a finger. It was a HEAD.

[MineralMan]

17. It was also a BB.

Dad just didn't know how to get it out. It didn't penetrate the skull. It was just shallowly imbedded. I've had a BB slighly imbedded in my skull at about the same age. My buddy popped it out with his pocket knife. Parents never even knew about it. Stung a bit, though.

[CreekDog]

39. you don't have any credibility on this

you can't even figure out how much corporal punishment is too much.

look, if you find it too confusing to draw a line at protecting children for fear you might actually be over-protective (and due to this analysis paralysis you can't think of any action taken as being right making your opinion worthless)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2370551

MineralMan

36. You could. Many people do.
Others use other techniques or a combination of techniques.

I have watched many cats raise their kittens. Swats are a major component of that training. Bears do the same thing with their cubs. Seems to be evolutionary in origin, doesn't it?

[MineralMan]

51. You went to DU2 to find that?

All over a first aid situation? Really? OK...

[Shining Jack]

52. What's the problem with going to DU2?

It's still DU.

[MineralMan]

55. It's not DU that is the problem. It's going and looking

for stuff that isn't even related to the topic as a means of discrediting someone. It's just kind of icky, I think. So I commented on it.

[Shining Jack]

59. I never said that DU was the problem.

People with a star use the advanced search function on DU3 all the time so what's the difference?

[kestrel91316]

100. Yeah, I find that sort of thing OVER A SILLY BB to be a bit creepy.

It's little more than a splinter. Heck, EVERY parent should be able to do that sort of minor thing. We're such shrinking violets these days, afraid of anything that might involve a single drop of blood.

Yes, it's best for a doctor to address it, but I don't think this constitutes anything remotely approaching a crime.

[obamanut2012]

47. A BB is a GUN PELLET

Posters keep acting like it was a splinter. I used to do some damage with a BB gun.

[MineralMan]

50. It is. It's a .177" diameter steel ball.

I picked a number of them out of my own self when I was a kid. In our childish folly, we used to have BB gun wars. It was very stupid. But, BBs from normal BB guns do not have much penetrating power.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

61. I had a friend end up with a BB in his brain.

It was fired at relatively close range from a C02 powered gun - dropped while playing with it. The BB went in behind his ear.

My friend spent a lot of time in the hospital and a lot more time at home recuperating. IIRC, it was when we were in 5th or 6th grade.

That said, I don't see the big deal in picking out a BB if it is just below the skin. Not too much different than a sliver. ANd we "doctored" LOTS of slivers when I was a kid.

I don't have a problem with home surgery. But my boyfriend does. He refuses to cut off the big skin tag in the middle of my back. I say just hit it with a steak knife or exacto knife or our diamond blade angle grinder. He wants his sister, who is a nurse, do the job. Last time she was here she looked at it and said she didn't have her caughtery kit. I was at her house for thanksgiving and she showed me the caughtery tool. It looks like a butane fireplace lighter with a furnace glow plug on the tip. NO FUCKING WAY! I would rather bleed! How much blood can I lose?

[noamnety]

62. I've cut off skin tags before

including very visible areas of my neck/shoulders. I had my doctor cut one off my face once, saw how the procedure went, and realized, okay, this is something I can do. It wasn't a big deal at all, I just numbed it with ice and cut it off.

I've also done the dental floss method. Takes longer, but I never had a problem.

I know a few army people that have no problem with self-surgery, or minor little crap on their kids, like one level up from removing a splinter. I don't have it in me to try stitches, but I didn't have a problem with sgt's who had a little training at that doing a couple stitches at home. I wouldn't want them trying an appendectomy on me while I'm sprawled out on the kitchen table, but removing a bb, if it's right at the surface I'd rather just have them do it than go in to a hospital for it. And I have good insurance here.

But at the other end of the spectrum, I also know people who go in for manicures instead of just cutting their fingernails at home.

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. I remember a 2 year old here in my city being killed with a BB gun

Playing outside in his yard and the neighbor kid shot him in the head. He died.

When I was 7, my best friend's next door neighbor was sitting in his living room watching TV. A kid outside with a BB gun shot through his window and the guy lost his eye.

[kestrel91316]

69. It's a BB under the skin. Heck, I see feline patients all the time that have a BB or 2 in them that

shows up on XRays that nobody can figure our when or how it even happened.

[JohnnyRingo]

82. You were lucky, my dad would have never wasted a fishing hook like that.

Many here don't understand how shallow a bb penetrates flesh, nor apparently how close the skull is under the skin. When I was young, the neighbor girl took a bb to the belly (I didn't do it), and I could see it under her skin. Her dad dug it out later when he got home from work, then had dinner.

The kid's life who shot her was probably in more danger than her's when his father got home. I didn't stick around to find out.

[MineralMan]

87. There was no way that hook was going to

come out without cutting. It went clear through that web of flesh. I've cut off hook points and barbs when fishing by myself several times, backed the hook out and continued to fish. It's probably the most common angling injury. I did have to go to the ER once, though, when I buried two parts of a big treble hook in my bicep. Still, though, my buddy and I kept fishing for a couple of hours. I just taped the lure to my arm. It finally started throbbing, though, so we called it a day and drove to the ER, where a nice young doctor removed the hook. That was an expensive fishing trip, but I did save the lure and put a new hook on it.

[JohnnyRingo]

110. I was sort of kidding about saving the hook...

But you can bet my dad would have tried to figure out a way. He was "thrifty" like that, but since I can't imagine too many minor injuries more truamatic than seeing a piece of metal piercing my flesh, I'm sure the hell I'd raise would have caused him to give up quickly. I think rather take a BB pellet to the face.

If nothing else, this post has at least given us oldsters a chance to relive the more memorable and hazardous days of our youth. Thanx for the story.

[OldDem2012]

13. Why is the boy in protective custody? From whom is he being protected?....

...and the father could be arrested for doing what, exactly?

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. He's 12. That's why.

[OldDem2012]

25. Again, from whom is he being protected? nt.

[CreekDog]

40. the dad/home surgeon with the utility knife

is there something in the water today?

god, i hope you people don't have children if you can't figure this out.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Thank you

[demwing]

122. I was kinda thinking the same

about you

[RetroLounge]

139. Yeah, god forbid he have children

and not treat them like science class experiments with a utility knife, and instead error on the side of caution.

Yeah, that would be a really fucking awful thing, right?



RL

[demwing]

150. By all means, go barf

It might make you feel less panicked at the idea that people can raise their children in ways that don't require your supervision.

[RetroLounge]

154. or your approval

RL

[demwing]

160. Yes, or my approval

Or anyone with the level of pearl clutching dramatics exhibited in this thread. People have been raising their children without harm, pulling splinters, glass, stingers, and other foreign objects (including BBs) from their kids skin for longer than this country has been around.

The father didn't do anything wrong. That child was likely more traumatized by being removed from parental custody than by anything the father did.

[RetroLounge]

166. I'm glad you can diagnose via DU postings

RL

[demwing]

167. And I am glad

that I bring you such joy

[RetroLounge]

198. Oh, you have no idea.

RL

[demwing]

226. Hmmm, that's sad

I was expecting a raspberry zinger, and all I got was a ding dong

[RetroLounge]

261. Hang in there. You'll be okay.

or not.

RL

[demwing]

264. No that didn't work

not enough raspberry.

Come on, I know you can do better.

I believe in you.

[Thor_MN]

158. Guess it all depends on the capabilities of those involved.

Some people should bring a scraped knee to the emergency room...

[pnwmom]

203. And something must have gone wrong. Or else why did he bring him

to the hospital the next day?

[Thor_MN]

231. Like I said, depends on the capabilities of those involved.

There are those that could remove an actual bullet and those that pass out at the sight of a bloody nose. What is plain silly is people getting all worked up over a very short news article. Since none of us were there, it's a bit ridiculous to be making pronouncements that range from popping that little sucker out to calling for a LifeFlight chopper ride to the trauma center.

We do not even know the time line. The kid may have done it late night, gone to bed, tell dad the next day, quick attempt to remove fails and bring the kid to the hospital. And it would get reported as it did. The BB could have been just under the skin in the kid's hair, or it could have been in his face. We don't know the details.

Those that are too panicky at the sight of blood to even put a bandage on a cut should go to the hospital. Those that are capable of properly dealing a minor wound can deal with them without resorting to a very costly emergency room trip.

[OldDem2012]

164. So, responding with an insulting comment is a good way to have a discussion?....

If it's all the same to you, I'll take the higher road and not tell you what I think of your comment.

Just curious, but how do you think people who live in remote locations handle injuries that don't involve cut arteries, broken bones, or internal injuries? They take care of minor injuries on their own...that's just the way it's done. If that fails to work, then they make plans to go see a doctor or visit a hospital. These days most people don't go see a doctor or visit a hospital for what they believe to be minor injuries because it's just too expensive to do so, especially if you don't have a medical plan. or the medical plan has a sky-high deductible.

If the Dad had been successful in removing the BB, we wouldn't be having this discussion today would we?

By the way, I have two great kids who have managed to survive quite nicely to become teenagers without seeking medical advice for every scrape or bruise. Thanks for asking.

[demwing]

125. He didn't have an umbrella. The bouillabaisse was salty. I like sandalwood.

That's why.

[woo me with science]

19. I agree with you.

Unless there is some bizarre twist to to this story that is not mentioned in the article, it sounds like the father was actually trying to help his son.

What further danger did they possibly anticipate, to take such a drastic action?

[Aerows]

43. It doesn't make sense to me, either

The kid is 12. At 12 years old, the kid is more than capable of communicating if it is horrifically painful, so I'm sure if it was that bad, he would have said so. Maybe the hospital thought the dad shot the kid, and they are investigating it from that angle?

Who hasn't cut a piece of glass out of themselves before, or done some sort of minor first aid? If it gets infected or something, sure you go to the doctor but this idea that you have to run to the emergency room every time you bleed a little seems silly to me.

[slackmaster]

53. I agree. This is an over-reaction by the authoritehs.

[JohnnyRingo]

88. I think a review of some of the replies here...

...show just how unduly concerned some people get over someone else's kid, and how judgemental they become over how they'd handle a private matter like this.

I can almost see why police became involved from the report generated by the ER, but that they took action seems a bit nanny state to me. The boy's life was never in peril and I doubt he's pleased with the separation from his parents.

I can only imagine that there are other factors not revealed in the article that should indeed remain private. Perhaps the boy revealed details or had evidence of abuse not reported here.

[slackmaster]

112. The dad deserved a stern lecture from a physician. It needn't become an issue for government.

The boy is in no danger from his father. There is no reason to believe the man is going to decide to try a home tonsillectomy, or start randomly cutting the boy with a utility knife.

[pnwmom]

185. This was not an overreaction. The father probably avoided treatment because he knew

that he was breaking the law allowing his son to shoot the bb gun in the city.

[slackmaster]

235. The father wasn't even home when the boy shot the gun

You are correct that Wichita has an ordinance restricting the use of BB or pellet guns.

[redqueen]

105. I agree.

You'd think the dad shot the kid to begin with, based on the reactions here.

[Viking12]

151. It is KS. Cops sees the Devil Buddha and has to 'Save' the boy with Baby Jesus!

Praise Jesus!

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. Nice regional slam.

Since we know everyone in KS is a religious freak.

[Mnemosyne]

18. My step-father duct-taped the end of his finger back on. It was to the first knuckle. We spent

Thanksgiving at the dr. office that night, thanks to my mother.

[Confusious]

74. Ah, the real man

"My arm fell off!"

"here, I got duct tape, super glue and a staple gun. pow! pow! pow!"

"It's just a flesh wound, I'll be fine."

[former-republican]

23. Nanny state

[obamanut2012]

48. I just won bingo!

[CreekDog]

214. everyone's hitting BINGO this weekend on DU

my god, what a travesty.

[Hekate]

26. Ah, home doctorin'. DUers got their share, I see. My Mom was good at that...

After I ran full tilt into the Encyclopedia Britannica bookcase and broke a toe, Mom advised me to pull it straight and tape it to the next toe. It came out fine, actually.

She never tried stitching up any of my brother's various cuts (he and sharp-edged objects had an affinity, for some reason) -- those generally rated a visit to the doc for stitches. The cry of "Don't bleed on the rug!" is something all 4 of us remember to this day. And we laugh, no kidding.

She was a very good and conscientious nurse when we were sick with measles, mumps, chickenpox, etc. We went to the doc then "for shots" -- gamma globulin, I think. And got vaccinated on time.

But she didn't quite take lung problems as seriously as she should have. There were some things we really should have seen the doctor for.

It was poverty, after all. You do the best you can.

Okay, I get it from you DUers who survived your own home doctorin' and BB wounds. Maybe it was shallow, just under the skin, as you surmise. But good old Dad freaking tried to cut it out with a utility knife, and head wounds tend to bleed like crazy. ARE YOU NUTS?

I guess we all have our limits. Love your DU stories, though. >shakes head<

[Lionessa]

35. Huh, are you sure about that last part, my son flipped himself backward off

a couch onto a hard floor and split his scalp about 3.5 inches, wide open, and hardly any blood at all. I did take him to the ER, they used his slightly longish hair as sutures tying the opening shut, put a few dabs of super glue and sent him home. So sometimes things are easy and not bloody. Noses are bloody, ears even can be, but scalps, not so much.

[Ms. Toad]

41. Your son was the exception, rather than the rule.

"Scalp wounds often appear a lot worse than they actually are due to the amount of blood coming from the injury. The reason for this is that the scalp is rich with blood vessels, so even a minor cut to the scalp can bleed profusely. These types of injury can be seen when attending to someone who has been in a fight or a person who has tripped and banged their head on a table edge."

[Lionessa]

70. Then perhaps it matters where on the scalp because, and bald men will agree

My first ex-hub was bald. He was constantly getting cuts and what not on his head because he had no hair to warn him of oncoming injury. The attic was the main thing and I've known many bald men immediately react with commrade like understanding of my husband's head issue as soon as the word attic is mentioned. Those damned exposed nails in unfinished attics, low light, hunched over, stand a little too tall or carelessly and he'd put down right holes in the top of his head, . . . none of those bled much either, nor hurt after the initial thump according to him and other baldies I've known who seem to have very similar attic stories.

[Confusious]

77. Male head hair doesn't work like cat's whiskers

I smash my head into things all the time, and I have a full head of hair.

Pure grade A 100% clumsiness.

[Lionessa]

83. Well that's not what the ex or the many other baldies I've

known claim right after they visibly cringe at the mention of baldness in an unfinished attic.

[Confusious]

90. I would think the exact same thing

As a matter of fact, I think a nail or two has run into my head. Scrapes I don't even want to count.

[Lionessa]

91. Hair may not be equivalent to whiskers, but it does

give a person a split second head's up (pun intended) and if nothing else does seem to slow one down a touch before impact.

[Confusious]

95. Yea, well it doesn't help me :)

I noticed I tend to be stupid when panicked like that.

I'm more likely to drive it in deeper.

[Ms. Toad]

97. That may make a difference -

I have just experienced profuse bleeding, way out of proportion with the injury - and I know it is part of nearly every first aid course I've taken (and I have to take them frequently since I've been required to remain certified).

Being bald may make a difference - it would not surprise me if the skin on the scalp thickens up when it is completely exposed rather covered with protective hair.

[obamanut2012]

49. Scalp injuries are rarely bloody & ER docs used HAIR as sutures?

[X_Digger]

56. Here's a link for you..

http://pediatrics.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2002/909/14

[slackmaster]

67. That's very interesting, X_Digger. I can't wait to try it next time one of my friends gets a gaping

...scalp wound out in the wilderness!

[Lionessa]

89. Thank you X_Digger, that's twice in one thread,

you've provided links while I was away to facts I presented. Thank you very much!

[X_Digger]

94. de nada.

I have no problem with snark that's backed up by fact, but ignorant snark? At least I can cure the ignorance

[Lionessa]

75. Yes indeed, standart practice for scalp injuries not requiring skull consideration.

Glad to see someone took the time to show you how ignorant you were.

[MineralMan]

92. Depends on the location, and yes,

they do tie or twist hair to close scalp wounds. Works great and avoids the pain of suturing and later suture removal. It's good to know stuff before laughing at other DUers. Really.

[kestrel91316]

101. I do actual surgery all the time and think that's incredibly CLEVER.

Wish I could do it with my patients but they have fur and not hair so it would be too short AND tend to pull loose anyway.

[Kali]

239. agree - very clever!

I'm with you - most of my surgeries are veterinary and the procedure is all about clipping that hair/fur and getting it away from the edges.

wish I would have known this trick when my youngest got stomped on the back of the head by an angry mama burro. He had beautiful long hair until kindergarten. as it was he healed up fine with no trip to the ER. he does have half a hoofprint on the back of his head when he gets buzz cuts, though.

[MineralMan]

96. A couple of months ago, I read the 1911 Boy Scout Handbook on

my Kindle. The section on first aid was pretty amazing. It included instructions for reducing dislocated fingers, shoulders, and jaws. They were good instructions, too, and were obviously written by a doctor. People used to learn how to do first aid, even for what most people would consider a fairly serious injury. That manual also had directions for all kinds of bandages, slings, and the like.

Same with the Girl Scout manual from 1923 that I read after that, except that there was more such information in it.

We're less self reliant these days, or a lot of us are, anyhow.

[TheMadMonk]

148. My scout handbook was still much the same into the 70's.

Nowadays, splinter removal is literally unlisenced surgery, and can be the basis of a criminal charge.

[slackmaster]

46. Basic gun safety should be taught in public schools

That boy had to simultaneously violate at least two of the fundamental rules of safe gun handling in order to accidentally shoot himself.

I don't fault the father for trying to take care of the injury, but I do blame him for not teaching his son the basics. Maybe he doesn't know them himself; that's why they should be taught in school.

[X_Digger]

54. Let's see.. things that my family 'doctored' for me..

I sliced open the top of my little toe with a bag of trash that had a broken lightbulb in it. Needle heated in a lighter + alcohol + thread = one stitch.

Gravel embedded under the skin of my knee from falling off a bike- needlenose pliers to feel around in the hole, grab the gravel and a sterilized xacto blade to cut it out (the swelling meant it wouldn't come out the same hole it went in) + a syringe of peroxide = good to go..

Smashed big toe + hot needle = relief

Pencil lead under the skin? xacto knife + alcohol.

And yes, at least one bb was dug out- if it hadn't been on my shoulder blade, I would have done it myself.

[dixiegrrrrl]

65. Guess we were raised in a different time.

When I was coming up, broken leg bones were sent to dr.
Sometimes broken arm bones.
Broken fingers, taped to another finger with a popsickle stick.
cuts, smashes, sprains, wounds, dents, fish hooks...all home treated, unless there were gaping wounds that obviously needed stitched up.
small wounds.....hydrogen peroxide, wrap bandage, observe for change in color every day and any fever.
Huge splinters were even pulled out at home, wound treated.
BB under the skin, visible: home treatment. And loss of BB gun.

Even tho in the 40's, 50's and 60's doctors were actually affordable
( this was before insurance go real big and medical prices went thru the roof)
we were raised that you don't go to a dr.unless it is REALLY a serious injury, like chainsaw cuts,
smashed limbs from a tree falling on you, etc. Not because of the money so much as because of not wanting to bother the busy doc with anything "minor".

Just the way it was.

[Confusious]

79. Flesh wounds?

'tis only a Flesh wound!'

'You bleeding git, you got no arms!'

[dixiegrrrrl]

84. Well yeah...

You know, like every movie hero who always got shot in the shoulder, and shrugged it off..
"It's only a flesh wound".
Which amazingly did not injure ANY of the bones in the shoulder area.
By god, you didn't see John Wayne running off to the dr. after every little gunshot wound,
arrow piercing or leg injury after a 1500 # horse landed on him, now, DID you?

[X_Digger]

85. Different times and/or different cultures..

The hospital was 40 minutes away from us, and the volunteer EMTs were about 20 in the best of circumstances (assuming someone was actually at the station when the call came, rather than doing their day job).

If you didn't know how to take care of each other, you were pretty well screwed.

It's still that way in the town I grew up in, though I hear there's a volunteer EMT station a bit closer to where I lived, now.

[JohnnyRingo]

93. My dad taught me how to make wound closing sutures from adhesive tape.

I think he didn't want to leave work every time I got a bad cut.

I later learned that running my own kids to an ER for every little injury had repercussions. All I suffered was long frustrating waits to see a weekend quack who did little to help, but having a kid at the hospital every month or so can lead to undue suspicion by indignant people who wonder why your pre-teen sons aren't spending more time in their protective bubble.

[abelenkpe]

60. Really?

Cmon people all the tragic stories we read daily about CPS not doing enough and you complain because they are being too protective? The kid shot himself with a bb. His father didn't take him to a medical professional and used a knife to his head to try and help him. I'd rather have CPS check this situation out thoroughly than ignore it because "back in the old days" something similar happened that you survived. People survive stupid dangerous shit all the time, doesn't mean it wasn't something stupid and dangerous that should be avoided.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

64. I don't have a problem with an investigation. It's their job.

But removing the kid from the home PENDING investigation?

What is more traumatizing to the kid? A little home surgery or being taken away from your family?

Who knows. Maybe there is more to the story. But absent violence or sexual abuse, I think the kid should stay in the home. But opinions are like a**holes so what do I know?

[TheMadMonk]

149. Yes, because they jump in with both jackbooted feet....

...on cases like this, but when the kid is being used as an ashtray, they turn around and argue that it would be cruel to separate them from their parent.

CPS all too often acts in minor cases where they see an "easy result", but leave kids too broken for the system to cope with, with abusive parents and simply hope they don't die.

[JVS]

66. US healthcare system

[hedgehog]

86. Apparently the family involved is African-American.

Would the boy have been placed in protective custody is they were white?

Would the boy be in protective custody if they had a pricier address?

[Ms. Toad]

99. Excellent questions.

At least one of my siblings (and potentially 3 of them) were placed in our home after severing the parental rights of their birth parents for things which would never have been cause of removal for white children (they were Native American). (My parents did not know the basis for removal at the time - we only learned it decades later.)

Although I think the problem is less severe now, I suspect it is not unheard of.

[hedgehog]

106. I stand corrected regarding the race of the family.

i still wonder about the role of economic status.

[slackmaster]

115. Perhaps an African-American father would be sitting in jail in the same situation

[slackmaster]

114. That's a great question

[RetroLounge]

140. Why do you assume because they are AA that they don't have a pricier address?

What a bizarre thing to say...

RL

[hedgehog]

144. I looked at the video tape in the original link - all the neighbors interviewed

were African American so I assumed the family involved was as well. The shots of the address show a lower end rental unit.

[Shrek]

221. You are correct

I've lived here my whole life (49 years) and my fraternity house in college was a short distance away from the home, so I'm familiar with the neighborhood.

It is not racially diverse and your assumption wouldn't be unreasonable.

[MineralMan]

109. It wasn't in the skull.

That's clear from the x-ray. However, it was pretty deep in some thickish scalp tissue. A simple job for any surgeon, but probably not a job for an amateur, really. A lot of people probably could remove it, but that looks like an ER visit to me. The BB probably had burrowed itself away from the entry hole, making an incision necessary to remove it.

Still, it's not a really serious injury. If nothing at all was done, the entry hole would heal and the BB would remain imbedded. Unless it started an infection, it wouldn't ever do any further harm. If it were my kid, I'd take him to the ER and have it removed.

[slackmaster]

116. Wow, so it wasn't the boy's father, rather the boy's father's friend

Zeke says he used a scalpel rather than a utility knife, and the BB is indeed a good 1/4" from the skull.

WTF is the boy doing in custody?

[slackmaster]

119. I think Zeke is the boy's father's boyfriend, and the "girlfriend" is just a neighbor they asked...

...to cover for them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. I copied that headline from the article.

[Paladin]

108. No Surprise That Our Gun Enthusiasts Sided With The Dad, Here.

Thanks for your contributions, Gun Folks. And as always, please stay the fuck out of my neighborhood.......

[slackmaster]

117. Also No Surprise That Our Resident Authoritarians Sided With The State, Here, Sir.

[CreekDog]

123. obviously the safety of a 12 year old boy is secondary to a dad's god-given right to be a stupid ass

[slackmaster]

159. That's a classic false dilemma

The only real danger that boy faced was a result of his lack of understanding of basic gun safety. He should not have been allowed to handle a weapon unsupervised - And that probably wasn't the fault of his father.

[CreekDog]

175. well you just brought up a second reason to consider the dad a stupid ass

he might not be, and for the kid's sake, i hope he isn't.

but when i bring up a reason he is, and when you, unwittingly, bring up another reason he is, we're left with some lapses in judgement that seem far from intelligent.

and a dude here who is defending them and begging us all to see them as they don't appear.

but this thread needn't be about your biases.

and if i have a bias, which you'll probably accuse me of --if my bias is "when in doubt, take the kid to an effing emergency room, this is not your body DAD..."

so sue me, i'm guilty as charged.

[Confusious]

133. Sorry, sided with the dad

Not a gun enthusiast.

[gollygee]

127. Reply #107 has a completely different story

There are times where failure to get proper medical attention is definitely a case for CPS, and a bb being embedded in the skull (!) and the father prying it out with a dirty utility knife, as the OP sounds to me, would strike me as one of those cases.

But then in reply #107, it isn't the dad - it's a friend of the day. And the BB isn't in the skull, it's just under the skin or something (unclear specifically how deep.) And it wasn't a utility knive, it was a scalpel with rubbing alcohol used. I guess a bb just under the skin, maybe. But then on the other hand, it says it's near the temple, and that seems like a sensitive spot.

I can say with absolute certainty I would have gone so quickly to the ER you wouldn't have been able to even have a word with me before.

But I don't know that this is a CPS issue, and I don't think the kid should have been taken from his dad, if reply #107 is true.

[pnwmom]

211. The fact that there's more to the story doesn't lessen the need for CPS to get involved.

It actually increases it. They need to get to the bottom of what happened.

Discharging a BB gun in the city is illegal. Who shot the boy? If he shot himself, who was supervising him? Who made the decision not to seek medical care till a day after a nurse's aid said the boy should be seen by a doctor?

Is anyone really taking care of this boy?

A neighbor said that Zeke, the adult friend, was the one who shot the gun. (This article mistakenly implies that the boy is named Zeke, but he is actually named Brayden.)

http://articles.kwch.com/2012-12-01/bb-gun_35518090

"I guess they were playing around, they were hiding in the closet and Zeke, that's the dude that had the BB gun and he shot it, trying to shoot at the wall," says Tiane Hoy, a neighbor.

The 12-year-old boy accidently shot himself in the head with the BB gun after it ricocheted off the wall.

Police say the boy's father tried to take the BB out with a utility knife but he couldn't get to it.

Family members turned to Hoy, who is a Certified Nurse's Assistant.

"They knocked on my door and asked me to help but I wasn't about to put a slit in his head to get it out," says Hoy

[gollygee]

216. OK well if an adult and child were playing with a BB gun together like that

it does need more investigation.

So there are three stories that show three different pictures. That's odd and does seem to indicate someone might be trying to mislead someone.

[mfcorey1]

135. Idiot!

[Kali]

155. and THIS is why rural people think urbanites are so frightening

freaking out about a fucking bb? and a kid getting taken away? WTF???? I hope there is more to the story than what you posted, this is insane.

um, 12 year olds of all sexes are dumbasses. Parents with a clue (or no insurance) mend them up the best we can. If the bleeding doesn't stop in a few minutes we take them in. My god. talk about delicate flowers...

[CreekDog]

174. thinking a kid should be seen by a doctor (ER or urgent care or whatever) is not "freaking out"

i don't think the child should be taken away based on this, unless there are details or other history in addition.

but with the aggressiveness of infections these days, with antibiotics less and less effective --remember, when you were a kid, antibiotics were much more effective than for this 12 year old.

as for being an urbanite, i've lived and worked in rural areas. if one cannot get to proper medical attention, then YES, be resourceful --but when medical attention is warranted, but avoided, that's just stupid.

[Kali]

176. you are still whining about this?

[CreekDog]

178. you're still advocating that kids be treated like your livestock?

[Skittles]

177. heaven forbid people show any common fucking sense

I've lived both urban and rural and digging a bb out of a child's scull with a utility knife is just plain stupid. Should the father be arrested? Probably not, but certainly investigated

[Kali]

181. common sense is using first aid when you can rather than running to the ER

for non-emergencies. common sense is NOT taking a kid into protective custody because the adults around him actually used some common sense. Did you go to any of the links and read the whole thread?

guy used a SCALPEL, GLOVES, and denatured alcohol when he tried to remove it. When it didn't work they took the kid to the doctor. I suspect the folks at the medical center freaked out like many on this thread because someone who they deemed unqualified tried to horn in on their gig, and called the cops.

now, maybe there were some other circumstances not reported yet but from what I read and viewed at all the links this was a huge over-reaction on the part of the authorities.

removing a bb from the scalp (not the skull, like the misleading headline states) should not have been any big deal and if not achieved, then taken to a medical pro. JUST LIKE THE PEOPLE INVOLVED DID. that is common sense.

[Skittles]

187. ................

"horn in on their gig"

done here

[Kali]

191. ...

[pnwmom]

204. Why did they wait so long to take him, after the "surgery" was unsuccessful?

Could it have anything to do with the fact that they broke the law in allowing the boy to be handling a loaded BB gun in city limits?

That in itself could explain CPS involvement.

[demwing]

224. What law are you referring to? /nt

[pnwmom]

225. This law:

http://www.ksccw.com/showthread.php?t=9532

http://www.municode.com/resources/ga...d=14166&sid=16

Wichita city code

Sec. 5.88.020. Unlawful discharge of a firearm, air rifles, pellet guns and BB guns.
(1) It is unlawful for any person to discharge or fire any gun, pistol, air rifle, pellet gun, BB gun or any other firearm within the corporate limits of the city except at any properly licensed shooting gallery or upon a pistol range or at a gun club, either of which shall be approved by the chief of police.

_________________

And there is also a question about who shot the gun -- the boy, or the father's friend Zeke.
And about who tried to dig the BB out -- the father or Zeke.

Lots of issues for CPS to try to figure out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1918920

[demwing]

232. Not what you said

you asked "Could it have anything to do with the fact that they broke the law in allowing the boy to be handling a loaded BB gun in city limits?"

Then you responded by citing a law restricting the discharge of a BB gun. Handling a BB gun and discharging a BB gun are very different things.

Of course we now know that the story details were incorrect, and the father didn't know about the injury when it happened, but that doesn't slow you down on this crusade, does it?

[pnwmom]

233. The law prohibits the discharge of a BB gun. In this case, a BB gun was discharged.

So they broke the law by allowing the boy to discharge a gun. Does that statement make you happier? Does it make any difference at all? Assuming there was a pellet and it was in the boys scalp, the law was broken.

We don't KNOW what the father knew because we have at least 3 different versions of the story.

1. The father was there when the shooting occurred and afterwards decided to take the pellet out himself.

2. The father was asleep and the boy came to Zeke, the adult friend, and told him of his injury. The next day, they told the father. Zeke tried to remove the pellet when the father wasn't there.

3. The adult friend shot the gun and at the boy's request decided to try to take the pellet out.

(And don't you think it at all strange that neither the father nor Zeke, according to Zeke's story, ran to help the boy after the gun discharged? That the boy was supposedly the one to come to Zeke? Why did neither of these men respond to the sound of a gun going off? How could the father, in the next room, sleep through this?)

[demwing]

238. Have you ever fired a BB gun?

It makes a sound similar to a champagne cork being pulled. OMG the dad slept through a noise!! Take the child into custody NOW!

[pnwmom]

241. IF that's what happened. But the nurse's aid who was asked to help out told a different story.

"I guess they were playing around, they were hiding in the closet and Zeke, that's the dude that had the BB gun and he shot it, trying to shoot at the wall," says Tiane Hoy, a neighbor.


So do you really blame CPS for trying to get to the bottom of what happened, when there were conflicting stories about how a BB gun was illegally discharged in a home and who injured the child?

[demwing]

251. Yep, I do blame CPS

Not every issue requires taking the child out of the home, even temporarily. This one certainly does not.

[pnwmom]

254. CPS didn't remove him from the home. Zeke's girlfriend did that, when she finally

took him to the hospital.

But once the hospital had a child-patient with no parent present and with damage from an illegal discharge of a BB gun, CPS had an obligation to take custody until it could investigate.

[demwing]

255. They may have acted lawfully...

but this "lawful action" is an over-reaction, and an (apparently legal) abuse of authority

[Kali]

234. wait so long? wasn't it the next day?

if CPS is taking kids away because of bb guns these days it is no wonder the gun nuts are paranoid

[Kali]

237. fuck if I know why they "waited so long" it was only a day later

I think you are getting overwrought about the wrong thing. they took this kid away from his home over a somebody trying to remove a fucking bb from his scalp. if that is indeed the only reason, it is an insane over-reach of authority.

[pnwmom]

244. The nurse's aid who saw him after the injury thought he should see a doctor right

away -- that she wouldn't have attempted to treat it.

They took this kid away from home because they were receiving conflicting stories over how he had sustained an injury from a BB gun that was illegally discharged.

You don't seem to understand that a BB gun shot to the face could have serious consequences. This boy was lucky he wasn't hit in the eye.

[Kali]

245. OMG YOU'LL PUT YOUR EYE OUT1!!!!11!

[pnwmom]

247. The CDC doesn't think this is a joke, and neither should any responsible adult.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00039773.htm

During June 1992-May 1994, a total of 959 BB and pellet GSWs among children and teenagers were reported through NEISS. Based on these reports, an estimated 47,137 (95% confidence interval {CI}=39,746-54,528) children and teenagers were treated for BB or pellet GSWs in hospital EDs during this period (an average of 23,600 per year or 65 per day) (Table_1). The incidence of BB or pellet gun-related injuries was highest for males (53.5 per 100,000 population) and children aged 10-14 years (66.6 per 100,000 population) (Table_1), and the sex- and age group-specific rate was highest for males aged 10-14 years (114.3 per 100,000 population {95% CI=94.1-134.5}).

SNIP

Editorial Note: An estimated 3.2 million nonpowder guns are sold in the United States each year; 80% of these have muzzle velocities greater than 350 feet per second (fps) and 50% have velocities from 500 fps to 930 fps (AC Homan, US Consumer Product Safety Commission, unpublished data, 1994). Most of these guns are intended for use by persons aged 8-18 years. At close range, projectiles from many BB and pellet guns, especially those with velocities greater than 350 fps, can cause tissue damage similar to that inflicted by powder-charged bullets fired from low-velocity conventional firearms (3). Injuries associated with use of these guns can result in permanent disability or death (4); injuries from BBs or pellets projected from air guns involving the eye particularly are severe (5). For example, based on data from the National Eye Trauma System and the United States Eye Injury Registry -- a system of voluntary reporting by ophthalmologists -- projectiles from air guns account for 63% of reported perforating eye injuries that occur in recreational settings (6).

[Kali]

249. thanks for looking that up, really

I am sorry you live in such a state of paranoia. Life is perilous. But it can be a hell of a lot of fun too. Most people manage to get through with a bit of fun and survive the occasional risk-taking adventures.

I respect your wish to be as safe as you can be. I hope you will respect other peoples' right to take a few more risks. We don't all want to live in a ball of cotton. That includes allowing our children to experience life, and the relatively minor consequences of an occasion minor injury.

[pnwmom]

210. Would you say that if it was your pal who decided to take it upon himself to dig into

your kid's scalp with a utility knife instead of taking him to the doctor?

Because it turns out that it may not have been the dad who did it after all. His buddy Zeke says he did the little surgery, after first taking him to the nurse next door. She saw the injury and said she wasn't about to "slit" his scalp to retrieve the pellet, and that the boy should be taken to a doctor. But no one took him to the doctor till the next day, after Zeke's attempt at surgery failed. And then it was Zeke's girlfriend who took him.

Also, it's unclear who shot the boy. The boy or Zeke.
AND it's illegal to shoot BB guns in the city.

Still think it was an overreaction for CPS to decide to investigate the matter?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1918920

[Kali]

236. yes

I don't have any problem with it. it was a scalpel, and gloves and alcohol were used. probably the guy got a little squeamish and couldn't finish the job.

if you have ever witnessed the deep cleaning of a flesh wound you realize that pouring peroxide on something isn't the same as digging around to make sure all the dirt and dead material are fully loosened and removed. making a little slice over the top of that bb was probably not enough. who knows? the stories and video I saw were pretty short on details.

bottom line a bb is not normally a big deal type of injury, most people that sustain them deal fine without going to a fucking ER over it. jeebus!

[pnwmom]

202. Why do you think the father finally took the boy to the hospital?

Probably because the wound was infected. He should have brought him the day before instead of trying to treat it himself. But since discharging a BB gun is illegal in the city, maybe he was hoping he wouldn't have to.

[demwing]

230. Maybe he had to break down his meth lab first?

Probably...yeah that must be it...

[Iggy]

180. What's that Billy? You shot yourself in the head with your BB gun?

ah, come over here... this utility knife should do the trick; this won't hurt a bit!

[pnwmom]

201. Why did the father finally take the boy to the hospital? Probably because the wound

was showing signs of infection -- which proves he should have taken the boy himself the day before, and not gone the do-it-yourself route.

[yawnmaster]

206. nope. because the kid didn't tell the dad about it and not until the guy the kid...

asked to remove it couldn't get it out.

this is so much ado about so little.

[pnwmom]

208. More recent reports say the father went to work on Thursday after he learned of the injury,

intending to take the boy to the doctor on Saturday. (So, in his judgement, it would be okay to wait till Saturday before getting medical attention for an injury that took place on Wednesday.)

But Thursday night the dopey family friend who'd been with the boy when he got shot decided to dig the pellet out himself, after the nurses aid next door refused to touch it. But it didn't just "pop out" like he hoped -- so his girlfriend took the boy to the hospital.

So some joker, not the Dad, operates on a kid's head, and the guy's girlfriend brings him to the hospital. On top of everything else, the discharge of BB guns is illegal in the city. No wonder CPS got involved.

(Oh yeah -- almost forgot -- there are conflicting stories about who actually shot the gun. Zeke, the family friend, says it was 12 year old Brayden who did it. But the nurse next door said it was Zeke. The reporter in the second article leaves the false impression that the 12 year old is named Zeke.)

______________

Question for people who know about BB guns: Don't they make noise? Does it make sense that the father wouldn't hear it go off? Or Zeke, who says he was in another room when the boy walked in and said he shot himself in the head?

What Zeke, the family friend, has to say:

http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/Authorities-take-boy-from-father-after-BB-gun/LlYjpkxoWkKsfwf4uhRk9Q.cspx

"I feel bad because he is not my son, I shouldn't have made a decision like that," said Zeke.

Zeke, who asked us to keep his identity concealed, is trying to set the story straight after an attempt to help his roommate's kid turned into a nightmare.

"Brayden came into the room and told me he had a BB in his head," said Zeke.

He says Wednesday night, while the boy's dad was asleep, the kid aimed a BB gun at a Buddha statue inside the family's home, and a BB ricocheted back at his head.

What Tiane, the nurse's aid next door has to say:

http://articles.kwch.com/2012-12-01/bb-gun_35518090

"I guess they were playing around, they were hiding in the closet and Zeke, that's the dude that had the BB gun and he shot it, trying to shoot at the wall," says Tiane Hoy, a neighbor.

The 12-year-old boy accidently shot himself in the head with the BB gun after it ricocheted off the wall.

Police say the boy's father tried to take the BB out with a utility knife but he couldn't get to it.

Family members turned to Hoy, who is a Certified Nurse's Assistant.

"They knocked on my door and asked me to help but I wasn't about to put a slit in his head to get it out," says Hoy

[yawnmaster]

257. depends on the bb gun, but they don't make that much noise...

If it was shot in a room and you were in another room with the door closed and maybe with the tv on, you might not know it was shot.

[pnwmom]

259. Thanks for the info, yawnmaster. n/t

[tinrobot]

207. Signs of infection the day after doesn't prove it was infected the day before.

...and from the article, we don't even know if it was infected.

Let's not start making assumptions here.

[pnwmom]

209. You are right. And since then there is more information

that makes it clear why CPS felt it needed to get involved in order to make sure the child was safe.

The person who dug into the child's scalp apparently was a family friend who may or may not have also been the one who shot the gun!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1918920

[Kali]

240. "Let's not start making assumptions here."

that is what this whole thread is, and it is hilarious to boot

I feel so sorry for kids these days. What sad boring lives they must lead in their hovered-over, padded and protected bubbles. OMG there might be a hard surface or a sharp edge. BLOOD!

[pnwmom]

252. My ophthalmologist is strongly against spongy "Nerf" guns because of the eye damage he's seen.

And the risks are even higher with BB guns.

I feel sorry for the kids who've lost their eyesight due to stupid decisions made by thoughtless adults.

[Kali]

256. nerf products are exactly what is wrong with people like you these days

when kids learn to play with real objects (like rocks and bb guns) most of them figure out what hurts and how to protect themselves. crap like puffy foam toys lull you into a false sense of safety.

proper supervision when young and actually allowing a few minor mistakes that cause a bit of physical discomfort will teach a kid how to take care of itself better than any hovering parent or ridiculous rules that NOBODY is going to follow.

now this thread (and you) were kind of amusing for a while, but I have to get back to work. you would never survive THINKING about how and what we do around here. have a nice day (watch out for the rug, might trip you)

[pnwmom]

258. You could be right. The father here and/or Zeke played with too many Nerf products,

and that's why they were dumb enough to let this 12 year old shoot a BB gun inside a house.

[datasuspect]

246. i still got some fresh unclutched pearls

if y'all want some when you get yer fit of the vapors.

[Kali]

250. hahahahaha

if I was inclined to have a sock account or a new username, freshunclutchedpearls would totally be the ticket!

[Kolesar]

253. Give a kid a BB gun and he will use it to kill songbirds

That's what the boys in my neighborhood did. Don't give BB guns to kids.

[craigmatic]

260. Why is this a child abuse case? It seems like he tried to help the boy but did it wrong.