I yelled at my parents tonight...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

They had called to wish me a happy birthday, and we had a very pleasant chat...

Until somehow we found ourselves talking about fracking. And the Keystone Pipeline.


Now, they were Republicans for all the years I was growing up, and beyond...But about oh maybe 8-10 years ago, they re-registered as Democrats. They have been faithfully voting for Democrats for some time now. I could not be any more pleased!

But I guess some of their attitudes are still Republican.

And that's why I yelled at them.


So. I need good, solid references to show them the error of their ways, and I hope that you good people can help me out. They need facts.


I hope you can help.

[elleng]

1. Sorry, CalPeg.

I'm sure you'll hear from plenty here about fracking, but this about Susan Rice and Keystone, MAYBE relevant to her possible position as SOS: State has something to say about approving Keystone, and she's got investments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline

[Common Sense Party]

2. I can't imagine you yelling at anyone.

Be honest with yourself: Do you think the references and facts will really help? Will they actually change their minds, when it's probably their emotions that ar causing them to believe this way? Will it be worth it?

Edited to add: Happy Birthday.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Oh, believe me, I can!

I don't do it often, but I sure can.

The references will help, because my dad especially is not basing his ideas on emotions. He is a very hard-headed, intellectual person, and highly educated. There is nothing emotional about this for him.

It will be worth it, for sure.

[Angry Dragon]

4. None of the oil from the tar sands will stay in this country

the oil companies will own it and they will sell it on the open market
it is dirty oil
it will not help this country one bit
to make it flow through the pipes they have to add chemicals
if it spills or leaks it is much harder to clean
it will cross the aquifer in the middle of the US
if it spills there we will run out of water

add: gas prices will go up in the Mid-West

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. Thank you, my dear Angry Dragon.

I think they already know these facts, but maybe not.

I'll give these a shot.

[quakerboy]

6. One thing I pointed out

I have a family member who works in the trucking business. Back when the issue first came up, he was pissed at President Obama, because "we need the jobs"

Till I pointed out that there will be a couple years of jobs, and then they will go away. The pipeline is just a way to avoid paying truckers to move the oil, so that they can actually net reduce jobs.


Which part of the issue are the points of conflict?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

7. The conflict is over how safe fracking is, among other things.

I pointed out that the chemicals used end up in the drinking water, and some people have been able to set their tap water on fire.

My dad thinks that fracking is an excellent way to get oil out of the ground. He also thinks that this will go on for a long time, and produce lots of usable oil.

[sabrina 1]

11. Do they care about environmental issues? Because if they do, then they should

definitely not support this pipe-line. From the National Wildlife site:

http://www.nwf.org/News-and-Magazines/Media-Center/Reports/Archive/2010/Tar-Sands-Staying-Hooked-on-a-Dirty-Fuel.aspx

Promoting the growth of the Canadian tar sands industry is a dangerous and foolhardy development. This pipeline system would virtually assure the destruction of swaths of one of the world’s most important forest ecosystems, produce lake-sized reservoirs of toxic waste, import a thick, tarlike fuel that will release vast quantities of toxic chemicals into our air when it is refined in the U.S., and emit significantly more global warming pollutants into the atmosphere than fuels made from conventional oil.

Communities that live near the tar sands are already experiencing health problems linked to the pollution, and dozens of wildlife species are at risk, including millions of migrating cranes, swans, and songbirds. If Keystone XL crosses our border, it will cut through thousands of miles of sensitive habitat in America’s heartland. When the tar sands are refined in U.S. facilities, the resulting pollution will foul our air and water.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

13. This is great! Thank you...

[quakerboy]

15. You are both right

Chemicals end up in drinking water. There are also issues with seismic problems.

If all you care about is getting oil, then he is right, this is a way to get oil out of the ground. And it will probably go on for a long time, and produce lots of oil.

Wikipedia has some decent references and explanation of the issues.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing

Try this link for some fairly factual discussion of the issues, as well.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-11/gsoa-hfv110412.php

[CaliforniaPeggy]

16. Ah, these are excellent! Thank you, my dear quakerboy!

[quakerboy]

18. No worries.

If you need more in depth stuff, I can go looking. All depends on how many citations and what level of research you want.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

20. That would be great, if you really feel like it.

My Dad is a scholar, with a Ph.D. He knows facts, and that's what I want to give him. Rigorous facts, written by people with impeccable credentials.

I don't need a lot, though. A few good ones will be more than enough.

Thank you!

[rightsideout]

8. Alot of the oil coming through the pipeline won't even be used by the US.

Most of it will be exported. It will only benefit the oil companies.

Tell him the oil companies are only interested in shoving a pipe up America's butt to make money.

Then there is the added CO2 from burning the stuff, but that just adds another argument to the controversy.

I find that you can't argue with these people even when you present the facts.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

9. That's another good way to see it.

My Dad is pretty factually oriented. He is not driven by emotions.

Thanks!

[sabrina 1]

10. And it is a potential environmental disaster.

So we are getting ready to destroy huge areas of our environment just so other people can profit, not even the American people.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

12. Exactly right.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

24. Add to that

Along with the globally catastrophic amount of greenhouse gasses such as naturally sequestered methane, released by stripping away thousands of acres of virgin boreal habitat, a huge amount of electricity is needed to run the process in which the tar sands separated and diluted with pristine FRESH WATER, (of which we may have a crisis over sometime in the future.) Its a big FU to future generations.

[Rowdyboy]

14. I'm not the one to help you but I CERTAINLY sympathize...and Happy Birthday!

on a totally unrelated note!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

17. Aw, thank you, my dear Rowdyboy!

You can go off-topic anytime you like!

[Rowdyboy]

19. You're a kind heart and those are increasingly rare these days...

May yours beat for many, many more years...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

21. ...

I'm hoping so too...

[Care Acutely]

22. So little is worth yelling at those with whom we share such limited time

I'm so sorry it came to this for you. I do hope all is better soon.

..edit to change one word

[Safetykitten]

23. Peggy yelling...is this recorded somewhere? Do. Not. Believe.

[DCKit]

25. Ask them to rent a copy of "Gasland". It's all they need to know. nt

[PATXgirl]

26. Agreed. I watched Gasland on Netflix this summer.

Didn't know what fracking was before but after watching that documentary, knew all I wanted to know about it.

[txwhitedove]

27. The good leg of Keystone Pipeline (NOT XL) has pushed crude thru U.S. for close to 2-yrs now. BUT,

if the paperwork, record keeping and accountability are any indication of "normal" procedures for the companies involved - then God help us all with the XL leg of the pipeline pushing dangerous product. I know nothing of their security measures. The part I have seen is comparable to building a nuclear power plant to blow out lots of energy to lots of people without a real handle on who did what/who gets what/and oh now what do we do with the waste?

[rainin]

28. I yelled at my mom yesterday, too.

I'm sorry I have nothing to add to the conversation about fracking. In fact, I am learning myself as I read these very informed responses.

I only want to sympathize with you that you are having this familial discord. I am hopelessly related to ardent right wing republicans. My mom really set me off yesterday when she actually told me I should watch Fox news more - I might learn something.

I realize from your post/responses that your cause is not lost. At least your parents sound reasonable. I am sympathizing with you about how you must feel that you yelled at them. I feel terrible. But, there is nothing I can do. I just feel terrible that they got her. I wish I could do an intervention. But with me, it's hopeless. Fox News and the church have her. I lose.

[GoCubsGo]

29. I went through this shit with my idiot brother a while back.

It was on Facebook. He was cheering on some idiotic idea someone had about transporting the tar sands oil on railroad tankers if the pipeline didn't go through. I pointed out how utterly stupid that was, given the consequences should that train derail, especially in his backyard. He made the usual excuses, to which I just asked him two questions:

1. Why do you think that pipeline ends at the Gulf of Mexico, and not at some the US refineries? Do you actually think it's going to stay here in the US?

2. If that oil is so great and useful and non-toxic, why aren't the Canadians refining it in their own country? They DO have oil refineries. Why are they running it through the US, and not over to one of their coastlines?

I don't know if I completely convinced my brother of how utterly wrong he is. But, he did do what he always does when somebody (usually me or my sister) points out that whatever he just posted is wrong and stupid--he deleted the whole thing.

[lonestarnot]

30. Poor thing. I cannot help.

[Panasonic]

31. Oh Peggy - have them talk to Waterman, naturally

[Javaman]

32. Tell them to watch "GASLAND" that should be enough to set them straight. nt