UPDATE: " Bradley Manning Trial" for those Dems who are Civil Rights Advocates!

[KoKo]

Bradley Manning’s ‘Unlawful Pretrial Punishment’ Hearing, Day 2
By: Kevin Gosztola Wednesday November 28, 2012 9:38 am

UPDATE – 6:40 PM EST Coombs asked Dr. Hoctor if reasons why Manning was on POI status were transparent. Hoctor answered, “It became clearer over time what was going on. … I think they were really very worried about his safety and I don’t think they trusted any doctors.” He also mentioned suicides had been a problem in the military in general. There’d been suicide on base and a suicide in the brig.

He also said the commanding officers of the Brig decided “they were going to run the risk management aspect of this case. I just wish they would have told me that in more certain terms that was what they intended to do.”

UPDATE – 6:35 PM EST Another hearing extending late into the evening. And much to catch up on.

Navy Captain Dr. William Hoctor, the psychiatrist who was seeing Manning, took the stand. There was a lighter moment in the proceedings when Hoctor said dancing in his cell did not bother him. “He’s sitting in his cell all day,” he said. He’s “got to do something to amuse himself.”

This and “peek-a-boo” he was playing with the bars is conduct the commanders who have taken the stand – both Choike and Oltman – have cited this activity when justifying keeping him on prevention of injury status.

UPDATE – 2:25 PM EST Defense finishes cross-examination of Col. Oltman. Oltman grew increasingly disgusted with Coombs during questioning. Coombs kept going up to hand him a document (emails) to read. He became agitated at one point: “Again, you’re going to hand me something to look at” and flipped his hands. He was tired of Coombs asking if he recalled something only to be handed a document minutes later confirming he did say what he could not recall.

UPDATE – 1:35 PM EST Oltman was asked about what he knew happened in the March 2 incident where Manning jokingly or in a matter-of-fact manner stated if he wanted to kill himself he could with his underwear waistband or flip-flops. He said this to a master sergeant who was talking to him about his POI status. (Papatke? We don’t get access to court records so guessing.)

MORE at: and an EXCELLENT READ AT:

http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/

[Luminous Animal]

1. Kevin Gosztola is doing a great job.

I've been following on twitter. @kgosztola https://twitter.com/kgosztola

The media is not allowed to take notes so he can only report during breaks. There are other indy media there as well, usually around 3 on trial days but the prospect of Manning testifying, which he probably will do tomorrow has the big news orgs vying for a press pass. Yesteday, CNN didn't make the cut... I am not sure about today.

Some other coverage
Alexa O'Brien @carwinb https://twitter.com/carwinb

Nathan Fuller ?@nathanLfuller https://twitter.com/nathanLfuller

Art Supereroes @WikileaksTruck https://twitter.com/WikileaksTruck

Adam Klasfeld @onearmedmaninc https://twitter.com/onearmedmaninc

[sabrina 1]

122. He's going to be a great investigative reporter. I followed him on OWS because he actually

travelled the country and knew what he was talking about rather than deliver talking points or play guessing games like the rest of the media does.

He has gained a very good reputation as someone who actually does the work of a good reporter something really rare these days.

I follow him on Twitter also.

[Luminous Animal]

123. I am looking forward to his write up about Brad's testimony today and tomorrow.

I started this DU thread post Kevin's (and other journalists) tweets that they made during breaks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021902885

[RomneyLies]

2. Hopefully hte real trial will start soon, the asshole gets convicted

and we stop hearing about his dumb, idiot, oath breaking piece of shit ass.

[Agony]

3. Bradley Manning is an extraordinary courageous hero that took his oath to humanity seriously

regardless of any other silliness.

full stop

[randome]

4. Yes, well, that's not the oath he took.

I don't think there IS a humanity oath in the U.S. military, is there?

[RomneyLies]

6. Not the one I took.

He's a disgrace to the uniform and the nation.

[white_wolf]

9. Manning did more for this nation than the majority of people who wear the uniform.

I have far more respect for someone who is willing to do that right thing than I do someone who blindly follows orders.

[Cleita]

15. I don't think the oath you took was the one that said to

look the other way when other human beings were being tortured, humiliated and killed without any trial or proof of guilt.

[RomneyLies]

19. I had a top secret clearance

I know what the fuck Manning did is illegal as shit and compromised his fellow soldiers.

He's shit and deserves far more punishment than he will ever receive.

[Fuddnik]

43. He exposed powerful war criminals.

And he's the one who gets punished.

[white_wolf]

46. The key word there being "powerful."

Our entire system is set up to benefit the powerful. Why should this situation be any different?

[RKP5637]

51. And I would add to that to 'protect' the powerful too. We've seen what's happen in other

countries throughout history when wrong was always right and the powerful beneficiaries of the system were always right.

[NCTraveler]

114. Name the powerful war criminal he exposed? nt.

[msanthrope]

129. What's that sound?

[rhett o rick]

58. When someone says "I know" then I stop listening. How audacious to think that you know.

Manning is a hero. If you want to kiss the ass of the military-industrial establishment, you are in the wrong party Romney...whatever.

It's usually the right wing that hates whistle blowers.

[enlightenment]

79. I had one, too -

quite a few in the military have (or had) a top secret clearance. It doesn't make you the be all and end all of what is right and proper. Clamber down off that high horse, because you are looking increasingly ridiculous sitting up there waving your sword and smacking yourself in the face with your own knees.

[RomneyLies]

81. The only people who look ridiculous

are those who support Manning.

Just like wingnuts looked ridiculous supporting Scooter Libby.

[sabrina 1]

125. Count me as one of the 'ridiculous'. You make no effort to explain your condemnation of the

millions world wide who support a soldier who witnessed war crimes in progress, took his oath seriously, reported them, and was told to be quiet. He then took the courageous step of becoming a Whistle Blower.

He tried to stop torture and he paid a price. The torturers otoh, have not even been investigated.

He had morals, but morals are not in style these days. The only ridiculous thing about all of this is that the wrong person on trial.

[EOTE]

94. The military sure is good at squashing dissent, isn't it?

That and churning out good little soldiers who do nothing but take orders. Can't have someone in the military thinking for themselves, can we? I'd strongly suggest educating yourself on this matter, but somehow I don't see that happening. You might want to start with the Nuremberg Trials.

[mysuzuki2]

95. project much?

[JDPriestly]

38. Members of the US military are obliged to follow a moral

code of honor as well as to obey commands. Sometimes the two conflict.

We shall see what the testimony is at the trial.

I have heard that Manning reported criminal conduct to his superior officer and that no action was taken.

That does not excuse his release of such large number of records and information in my opinion. But it is somewhat mitigating. His superior officer had the same duty to obey military law as Manning did. Again, not an excuse, but perhaps mitigating when it comes to deciding his punishment.

We shall see what happens.

[randome]

50. I believe he deserves mitigation.

Simply because he was emotionally unbalanced and his superiors ignored the signs.

But he did break his oath and he did not personally review the thousands of documents he handed over to a foreign national.

[rhett o rick]

59. There is no "moral code" that supersedes actual morals. The germans following orders killing Jews

were following a code also. Doesnt make it moral.

Shame on those that want to turn their backs on atrocities because of some stupid ass rational like, "he signed a pledge".

[rhett o rick]

63. So you think that what ever oath he took trumps morality? That wouldnt be very Democratic thinking.

[randome]

70. Not at all.

But there was no reason to break an 'oath to humanity' by handing over documents too numerous to review to a foreign national. That's not whistleblowing. We have very clear avenues to pursue for whistleblowing.

[rhett o rick]

74. Our authoritarian culture denigrates whistleblowers and rewards those that

follow and kill as ordered and/or ignore atrocities. Of course security is the rationalization. It always is.

[randome]

75. Our culture also has clear avenues to follow for whistleblowers.

In fact, there is a special avenue to follow for the military known as The Military Whistleblower Protection Act.

Other countries have followed our lead on this and other whistleblower protections.

[rhett o rick]

80. These "protection acts" are designed by authoritarians. Corporations also have "protection acts".

Generally they offer very little protection.

[randome]

86. Whistleblower acts exist in nearly every state.

There are tons of supporting laws such as No FEAR Act, Sarbanes-Oxley Act, even the Freedom of Information Act. You can hate on 'authoritarians' all you want but the truth is our country provides a LOT of protection for whistleblowers.

[EOTE]

97. Not nearly as much as it should.

Even the Obama administration has been extremely hard on whistle blowers. In fact, it's very easy to argue that the Obama administration has been harder on whistle blowers than any other administration in the past. If you think that the U.S. offers substantial protection for whistle blowers, you're fooling yourself. It's all just lip service. Reality tells a far different story:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-18/obama-pursuing-leakers-sends-warning-to-whistle-blowers.html
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/obamas-whistleblowers-stuxnet-leaks-drones
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/05/obama-campaign-brags-about-whistleblower-persecutions

[randome]

100. Leaking information has nothing to do with Whistleblower statutes.

You want to be a Whistleblower, follow the procedures. I'm sure it isn't rocket science.

[EOTE]

105. You didn't respond to my post.

You said that the U.S. is oh so great at protecting whistle blowers. That's utter bullshit. The U.S. is fucking horrible at protecting whistle blowers. All it offers is lip service. The Obama administration is probably the worst administration that there has ever been in terms of protecting whistle blowers. Are you familiar with the WWI Espionage Act? The Obama administration has prosecuted more people under it THAN ALL OTHER ADMINISTRATIONS COMBINED. Does that sicken you even just a little bit? This sure isn't rocket science.

[randome]

107. Many of the prosecutions were for leakers, not whistleblowers.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2011/05/obamas-war-whistle-blowers/38106/

You want to be a whistleblower, follow the procedures. You don't hand over classified information to a blogger, as Shamai Leibowitz did.

[EOTE]

108. And many of them were NOT for leakers, but whistleblowers. Once again, you're completely ignoring

the point. The Obama administration has been extremely hard on whistle blowers who followed every proper channel they were supposed to. You can't say that these "leakers" should follow proper whistle blowing procedure and they'll be hunky dory when this administration and pretty much every administration that has come before it has proven time and time again that it doesn't give one damn for whistle blowers. It's an absolutely ridiculous argument.

[randome]

111. Obama issued the The Project on Government Oversight directive.

He also signed the Whistle Blower Enhancement Act. Progress has been made and is being made. I'm sure it can be better.

But no one should get away with handing over classified documents -WITHOUT REVIEW- to a foreign national. Manning knew about one incident. The other documents he knew nothing about. He didn't care if it put anyone else at risk.

[EOTE]

113. Once again, more prosecutions under the Obama administration than all others combined!

"I'm sure it can be better", well it sure as hell can't get much worse. Manning is NOT being prosecuted because what he released was damaging to the U.S., he's being prosecuted because what he released is embarrassing to the U.S.. There's a big difference.

[Hayabusa]

87. Amen on that

More often than not, I'd imagine that they just serve the purpose of letting the place know that you have the information. Guess what would have happened to Manning if he had gone through the proper channels? He'd probably have "committed suicide" shortly afterwards. Hell, if the case wasn't so widely know, he probably would have anyway.

[RomneyLies]

5. Bradley Manning is a criminal who belongs in a military prison for the rest of his life.

Considering him a hero is delusional, IMO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Regardless of guilt or innocence.

Are you going to defend pre- trial treatment that qualifies as ...torture?

That is actually one of the things at trial here...and us joining lovely places like oh...Iran in this respect.

[Lightbulb_on]

16. I have yet to see anything that qualifies as torture...

Being put in a smock so you don't hang yourself and being placed in a solitary cell is hardly torture. Frankly, it's offensive to those who have had to go through it.

A high profile prisoner states that he just wants to kill himself and expects no reaction? Anyone who has been in the Army for more than 45 minutes knows that nowadays that just doesn't fly, especially in a case like his.

He was a troubled Soldier (classic 10%er) and it seems like he wanted to lash out at those who he perceived as having "wronged" him. I've had dozens just like him pass through. He just managed to crash and burn in a particularly spectacular way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Those who have a clue

Disagree with you, and I will leave it at that.

Oh you are in the army, you know the UCMJ forbids pre trial punishment as well.

You defend that.

[doc03]

33. +1

[redgreenandblue]

65. Either you side with Manning or you side with war crimes. It is that simple.

The standards of Nuremberg made that much clear.

[RomneyLies]

69. Either you side against Manning or you support treason, it's as simple as that

The standards of the UCMJ make it clear.

[redgreenandblue]

71. I guess you are opposed to the standards of Nuremberg then.

Concentration camp overseers should go free because they followed orders.

[RomneyLies]

72. GODWIN!

Nuremberg does not apply in the slightest in this case.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Actually what he exposed were possible war crimes

Next.

But you have not yet dealt with the pre-trial treatment which contravenes the UCMJ. So not knowing how Nuremberg might apply, I understand.

[randome]

92. Every defense attorney in anything like this case claims mistreatment.

That doesn't mean it did not occur but there needs to be some evidence of it before the judge takes it into consideration.

[RomneyLies]

93. Just taking a moment to say something to people replying to this

If you reply to me and I don't respond, the safest assumption is I am ignoring you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Good

You still handle the truth.

[EOTE]

109. Yeah, you don't seem to be the type who's capable of handling dissent.

Much easier to only converse with people who have the same extremely limited world view that you do.

[EOTE]

102. Like hell it doesn't. Manning exposed war crimes.

Manning is being punished because what he exposed was EMBARRASSING to the U.S., not because what he exposed put the U.S. at risk. You should really learn the difference.

[rhett o rick]

83. The right-wing authoritarian culture of the USofA has left the Nuremberg standards

way behind.

[Hayabusa]

78. And I believe that there are

laws of war that make what he exposed clear as well.

[struggle4progress]

112. Hooie. DUers were complaining of war crimes in Iraq years before Manning had even enlisted

struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | MFP Sun Oct-01-06 03:44 AM
Original message
What My Father Saw at Nuremberg (Christopher Dodd)

What My Father Saw at Nuremberg
Sixty years ago today, my father watched the U.S. win the battle of ideas.
Have we lost our way?

By Christopher Dodd, SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD (D-CONN.) is a senior member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
October 1, 2006

.. At Nuremberg, we rejected the certainty of execution for the uncertainty of a trial. The test was one of principle over power, and the United States passed.

President Harry Truman understood that our nation's ability to bring about a world of peace and justice was rooted not in our military might but in our moral authority; not on the ability to compel people with our tanks and planes but to convince them that our values and our ideals were right. He understood that our ability to succeed in spreading American values of freedom and human rights are only as effective as our willingness to uphold them ..

Today, we debate secret prisons, suspension of habeas corpus, warrant-less searches and wiretaps. The president even asks us to reinterpret the Geneva accords to sanction the torture of enemy prisoners ..

We would do well to remember the words of Justice Jackson: "We must never forget that the record on which we judge these defendants today is the record on which history will judge us tomorrow. To pass these defendants a poisoned chalice is to put it to our own lips as well."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-dodd1oct01,0,6859766.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=238083&mesg_id=238083

[Agony]

121. Manning will remain a hero of the highest calibre regardless if he is freed, imprisoned or executed.

[KoKo]

8. Why do you spew such hate against Bradley Manning? Can you give a rationale to

your spewing about him?

If you want others to convince then you need to give them convincing evidence of your own viewpoint to get them to take you seriously.

So far you just spew hate...for no seeming, rational reason...

[RomneyLies]

11. I served in the uniform. He violated his oath and screwed his fellow soldiers

I have precisely ZERO sympathy for a Blue Falcon like Manning.

The fucker will never be punished to the level he deserves.

He's worse than the fuckers who abandoned their posts because they're birthers. He revealed shit that could have got fellow soldiers killed.

[white_wolf]

12. He revealed evidence of torture and other human rights abuses.

He can never be rewarded to the level he deserves. The people who followed orders and kept quiet about torture are the ones who should be punished. I have no use for them or anyone who defends them.

[bahrbearian]

14. So your just what the Military is looking for , too bad you don't care about the constitution.

How do you feel about Bush, did you follow all the orders that Chicken Hawk gave you?

[RomneyLies]

21. If you cannot handle the requirements to be in the military, STAY THE FUCK OUT

Manning is shit. He's going down and he's never getting out.

Good riddance to bad trash.

[redgreenandblue]

66. You apparently are the one who cannot handle the requirements to being in the military.

Look up "standards of Nuremberg".

[rhett o rick]

88. I am surprised at such hatred expressed in a liberal blog. nm

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. I am not.

We have our haters too!

[rhett o rick]

115. To me haters dont meet the "political liberal people" test of the TOS. nm

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Crimes against peace

Look it up

[EOTE]

103. You're a good little soldier aren't you?

The military really hates folks who can think for themselves. It's pretty sickening how the military industrial complex has fucked this country. It's also sickening how good it is at creating pathetic sycophants who'll excuse any fucking atrocity the military commits.

[laundry_queen]

132. + a million. nt

[Cleita]

17. I see you have no proof to offer that he screwed his fellow soldiers

anymore than the abused he exposed got a trial or any proof of guilt.

[RomneyLies]

20. HE passed along classified documents

He's scum.

[Duppers]

35. IF you found classified documents that were...

Last edited Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:01 AM - Edit history (1)

Say either..
A coverup of War crimes or
An assassination plot to kill the president or
A military overthrow of the US government or
A medical report of experimentation on unknowing, uninformed soldiers

What would you do ???!!!

You can take that classified documents reasoning and shove it up your god damn, moronic Ass.

Authoritarians like you do not belong on a liberal progressive forum like DU imo.

I would like to think that you would try to read more about this young man and his case, but I know you will not.

[white_wolf]

44. +100.

[RKP5637]

53. Well said!!! n/t

[Bonobo]

41. Wouldn't have been hard to find a Nazi that agrees with that mentality. nt

[struggle4progress]

25. Bradley Manning 'attacked female soldier ...

By Raf Sanchez, Washington
9:00PM GMT 18 Dec 2011

... Captain Casey Fulton, who served in the same unit, said on Sunday that during one late night shift in May 2010 she found Pte Manning pinned to the ground by his female superior, Specialist Jihrleah Showman.

"<Showman> said he had struck her and she had a big red welt on her face," Captain Fulton said ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8964543/Bradley-Manning-attacked-female-soldier-and-sent-picture-of-himself-as-a-woman.html

[RomneyLies]

27. I don't really think that's material to the case for his being a traitorous bastard

but it does demonstrate his character.

[Marinedem]

31. Yep.

Classic 10%er.

[Cleita]

28. He was pinned to the ground by his female superior?

She must have been trembling in fear.

[msanthrope]

76. She pinned him after he "punched her in the phace" (sic). He uses an anti-gay slur to describe the

incident, so I will redact that---

(01:44:33 PM) bradass87: DADT isnt really enforced

(01:44:56 PM) bradass87: top interrogator here has a civil union in NJ

(01:45:18 PM) bradass87: i punched a **** in the phace…

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/manning-lamo-logs/

Apparently she pinned him down after that.

[JDPriestly]

39. At which time, Bradley Manning should have been sent home

for psychiatric investigation and/or discharge. I wonder why he wasn't.

Seems to me it was pretty obvious that he had problems and that there may have been problems in his unit if not beyond.

During the Viet Nam War, recruits were discharged for less.

We have a volunteer military. It seems to me that if someone is clearly unsuited for military life, they should be discharged.

This whole matter did not need to happen.

[msanthrope]

77. Apparently, he was being looked at for discharge because of gender identity disorder--

His own words---

02:59:41 PM) bradass87: GID… discharge… family issuess… and possibility of transition in near future

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/manning-lamo-logs/

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Alas not even DOD is making the claim

That the material released put anybody at even an iota of risk, but you probably do not realize that.

What he released though, proved highly embarrassing, to put it mildly.

[MNBrewer]

34. "could have"

Well, that's one way to put a dishonest spin on it, I guess.

[RomneyLies]

37. Standard for conviction under the UCMJ has no requirement for any negative effects.

He's a traitorous bastard who is lucky he wasn't charged with open treason.

I see DUers throw around the treason word like it's meaningless and when a real case of treason comes up, some will put the traitor on a pedestal.

Same crap happens on the rightwing sites. They throw around the word treason, yet when Scooter Libby is demonstrated to be a real traitor, the right wing assholes put that traitor on a pedestal.

[morningfog]

42. Viva Manning! I hope for 1000 to follow his example!

Human rights trump oaths designed to keep atrocities a secret.

[white_wolf]

45. Agreed.

However, authoritarian posters like the one you are replying to can't see beyond orders and oaths.

[rhett o rick]

62. Did he burst your bubble? Did he expose the horrors of reality that you are trying to avoid?

Your rational that he was in the service and therefor his pledge trumps humanity and morality is sad. Strange that it is the same as my right-wing brother in law.

[Fire Walk With Me]

52. He blew the whistle on Bush's war crimes. How can anyone have a problem with that?

George Bush. War criminal. Bradley actually did something to get him closer to justice.

[RomneyLies]

54. He violated his security clearance and revealed classified.information to the world

How can anybody support that?

[Fire Walk With Me]

55. George Bush is a war criminal who brought torture into our playbook, among other things,

throwing out international agreements and conventions with impunity. 100,000+ Iraqis citizens are dead because of him and his WMD-crazed oil grab. George Bush is a criminal using the law to avoid punishment. Anyone bringing him to justice is a hero. Monsters abusing the law do not get a pass, but those bringing them to justice do.

[RomneyLies]

56. Irrelevent

Had Manning confined his doc dump to only such as you describe, he might have some semblance of a defense.

He did not. He engaged in espionage and aided and abetted the enemy. He is a traitor and a disgrace. iMO, he deserves the death penalty.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. You claim you serve

Are you familiar with the Geneva Convention?

Yes, even the UCMJ contemplates that one.

Regardless, I am still waiting for you to answer the detention mistreatment. Lets start at the basics here.

[zappaman]

117. To be fair....

Many people on DU claim to be things they aren't.

Suffice it to say, they will never get it, no serious as a heart attack, they don't get it and continue to claim careers and knowledge of things they no little of.

[redgreenandblue]

67. When the US invaded Iraq, it became guilty of crimes against peace.

From that point on it, under international law, it was the duty of every soldier to obstruct in any way possible.

[Zorra]

64. Nuremberg

Principle IV states: "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him".

This principle could be paraphrased as follows: "It is not an acceptable excuse to say 'I was just following my superior's orders'".

Principle VII states, "Complicity in the commission of a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity as set forth in Principle VI is a crime under international law."

[rhett o rick]

90. Our authoritarian culture denigrates whistleblowers and rewards those that

follow and kill as ordered and/or ignore atrocities. Of course security is the rationalization. It always is.

I posted this in #70 but thought it could be said again.

[NCTraveler]

116. Manning did nothing to bring Bush closer to justice. Nothing.

And releasing large amounts of classified information, not knowing what was in them, is not whistle blowing. In no way. It is irresponsible.

[AAO]

10. K&R n/t

[Unknown Beatle]

13. We need transparency.

We need more Mannings in this world. Wikileaks and Anonymous are doing great things too.

[struggle4progress]

23. Bradley Manning was kept in restrictive custody to prevent suicide, officer testifies

By David Dishneau, The Associated Press

9:08 p.m. EST, November 28, 2012

An Army private accused of sending reams of classified U.S. documents to the secret-spilling website WikiLeaks was kept in tight pretrial confinement partly because another prisoner had recently committed suicide, the former security chief at the Quantico, Va., Marine Corps base testified Wednesday.

Marine Col. Robert Oltman appeared as a witness on the second day of a pretrial hearing for Pfc. Bradley Manning, who is seeking dismissal of all charges, claiming his confinement in the Quantico brig amounted to illegal punishment.

Oltman and others have testified that psychiatrists who examined Manning at Quantico repeatedly recommended that his conditions be eased. But Oltman, whose command included the brig, said he was skeptical about at least one of those recommendations because another detainee had killed himself in December 2009 after his custody status was reduced based upon the advice of the same doctor, Navy Capt. William Hocter, the psychiatrist assigned to the brig.

"He didn't have the strongest credibility with me with regards to his recommendations," Oltman said under questioning by civilian defense attorney David Coombs ...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-manning-wikileaks-20121128,0,7910406.story

[RomneyLies]

26. That pretty much tells me his defense team is desperate.

They're in spaghetti mode, throwing anything against the wall to see if it will stick.

[struggle4progress]

32. It was actually a deviation from standard practice to keep anyone at Quantico so long:

the Quantico brig was usually used for short-term holding; and when the government finally moved Manning from Quantico they seem to have at the same time permanently closed portions of the Quantico brig. So, naturally, the defense has been soliciting testimony to the effect that Quantico was entirely ill-prepared to house Manning for any extended period

But overall I think the defense is an uphill climb, and that at best he can hope his defense convinces the court: (1) he had serious psychological issues and (2) he didn't inflict huge damage

[JDPriestly]

40. For once, we agree, struggle4progress.

I wonder what kind of "confession" they intimidated out of him. Should be interesting to hear his testimony.

As I said before, his superior officers should have sent him packing long before he released all the documents (assuming he released them).

[Luminous Animal]

30. Better headline "Oltman refused to listen to the assessment of experts"

Hoctor was not the only psychiatrist that recommended easing of Manning's conditions. And did Otlman, keep EVERY prisoner in pretrial confinement when Hoctor, et. al., recommend the easing of conditions? That is, was Oltman selective in rejecting some recommendations over others and was Manning the only one?

[struggle4progress]

47. I wonder how you would have reacted to the argument "Oltman just listened to experts", if

Manning had killed himself

[Lightbulb_on]

68. The tin foil would come out...

... and he would be lauded as a martyr who had been assassinated by the military industrial complex.

I don't understand how folks who supposedly prefer diplomacy to military action can side with him. The release of DoS cables made diplomacy more difficult and thus military conflict more likely.

If I, as a foreign nation, have something sensitive to speak to the US about I am less likely to do so if I think that my information is going to be potentially dumped to a group like wikileaks or a spotlight ranger like Assange.

[msanthrope]

84. They would have cited that Manning was making nooses in Kuwait, and gathering metal for self-harm,

as reported on the first day of the trial.....so why wasn't he on suicide watch????

10:28 PM EST Overgaard told the court that while detained in Kuwait Manning had “created nooses” and “gathered metal to harm himself.” Coombs had no reaction to this when given a chance to rebut argument that professional and records should be made available to the government.

Overgaard indicated the government wanted to use notes from Kuwait on Manning’s mental health condition to argue putting him in maximum custody, on prevention of injury status or suicide risk was justified. Coombs said material from Kuwait could be referenced if it had influenced brig psychiatrists or decisions made by commanding officers. However, it did not have any influence it was irrelevant.

The judge granted this order to look at records from evaluations after 2009.

10:23 PM EST Cpt. Angel Overgaard argued a motion for court order for mental health care professionals and records. Overgaard wanted to be able to speak to psychiatrists that had treated or had contact with Manning. She alleged the prosecution wasn’t able to question certain individuals because they claimed they needed a waiver. Coombs said none of these people had been told not to talk to the government and, if there really was a problem, he would tell these psychiatrists they should respond to government requests for testimony.

http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/08/28/bradley-manning-august-motion-hearing-day-1-live-blog/

[msanthrope]

73. I think you are denying certain facts: first, a suicide resulted from the Hoctor's

recommendation. Was the brig commander supposed to take a chance on Manning, arguably his most high profile prisoner? Let's not forget that Manning was put on POI status by that same doctor.

Second, all the cells at the Quantico brig are single. There is no solitary confinement per se..... but there are restrictions on what the prisoner is allowed to do and his access to privileges.

[struggle4progress]

126. Bradley Manning says he considered suicide while in military custody

By Larry Shaughnessy, CNN Pentagon Producer
updated 9:36 PM EST, Thu November 29, 2012
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/29/justice/manning-wikileaks/index.html

[forestpath]

24. K&R

[DJ13]

29. K&R

[white_wolf]

36. This is just like America to put a hero on trial while giving the banksters millions.

They caused far more harm than Manning did and I'm sure they violated several laws in the process.

[Zorra]

110. In this *idiocratic* culture where money is god, superstitions and lies are truth,

war is glory, and all altruistic ethical actions that threaten the omnipotence of the Military Industrial Complex are crimes, it is only natural that conservatives would put a hero on trial while giving millions to their bankster ("Masters of the Universe&quot priests.

[OnyxCollie]

48. K&R. nt

[cstanleytech]

49. I am a bit confused, what exactly does a psychiatrist have to do with the guilt or innocence

of Manning in this case exactly?

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. The defense brought up the pre-trial mistreatment

[cstanleytech]

118. You mean when they kept him naked because they feared he would commit suicide?

Or did they torture him gitmo style?

[Luminous Animal]

119. They didn't fear he was going to commit suicide. They were purposefully

mistreating him.

Not allowed to exercise. Not allowed to lay down during the day. Only 1/2 hour outside to exercise. No communication with anyone. Florescent lights shone on him throughout the night and if he turned over to avoid them, he was woken up.

The psychiatrists have testified that"

http://www.bradleymanning.org/news/quantico-psychiatrist-bradley-manning-treated-worse-than-death-row-inmates

Quantico psychiatrist: Bradley Manning treated worse than death row inmates
Two mental health professionals testified to the fact that Quantico was the first brig to blithely ignore their recommendations to remove a detainee from restrictive conditions.

Defense lawyer David Coombs asked Col. Hoctor if he thought Quantico was running the risk of of endangering Bradley Manning, and Col. Hoctor said yes, it was, as these conditions might have “unintended consequences.” Coombs asked how Col. Hoctor would describe officials who didn’t consider these effects, and he said, “callous.”

Bradley’s treatment would continue indefinitely

When Cpt. Hoctor expressed his concerns, and the fact that Bradley’s restrictive conditions should not be justified with mental health language, to Col. Robert Oltman, Security Battalion Commander in charge of Quantico, Col. Oltman told him that Cpt. Hoctor should continue to report weekly but that “we’ll do what we want to do,” and that Bradley would be on POI watch for the foreseeable future.

This made Cpt. Hoctor the “angriest [he’d] been in a long time,” as the treatment was “senseless,” had no psychiatric justification, and a Battalion Commander had never before said outright that such a confinement statues would continue indefinitely regardless of his recommendations. He also said that this treatment could harm Bradley, as “everyone has limits,” though “he’d been strong.”

[cstanleytech]

124. You do know that Manning himself admitted he considered suicide right? nt

[Luminous Animal]

127. Ayup. In Kaiwait many months prior. And even then he testified to a caveat.

He testified that he didn't actually want to die but to get the hell out of his cage. When he got on American soil, his mood improved and two doctors recommended that he be removed from solitary which, in their assessment, would do more damage than good. (And, of course, it is well documented that prolonged solitary IS torture and has long term debilitating effects.)

They stripped him naked, against regulations, and mocked him Dr. Seuess style in emails. They were trying to break him.

[cstanleytech]

128. Still I am not sure exactly how its all relevant to his guilt or innocence in regards to leaking

classified documents to wikileaks.

[msanthrope]

130. This is pre-trial motioning---it's more about due process than trying him for crimes.

His lawyer is attempting to knock out some of the charges/some of the time BM will be facing, post-conviction.

[cstanleytech]

131. But isnt that stuff supposed to be introduced after the verdict but before the sentencing? nt

[msanthrope]

133. No--what you have here is a lawyer using a vehicle that allows the introduction

of such evidence as a means to dislodge some of the charges, and cut the eventual sentence. You have a procedure under the UCMJ that allows for what is essentially a due process hearing before trial.

Manning is facing 22 charges, and any plea deal reached with the government would give him decades in prison. So the defense strategy seems to be:

1) Delay trial. Every single day Manning is in pre-trial confinement in medium security in Leavenworth is one day less that he has to serve in max security post conviction.

2) Knock some of the charges out pretrial.

3) Make the case that the holdover in Quantico constituted pre-trial punishment (i.e. he was kept in conditions that were not necessary to keep him from harm, but were punitive) and that equity demands that he get a ratio cut of his sentence served for each day served in the brig---so for every one day in the brig, he might get 3 days off his sentence.

His lawyer will reintroduce all of this at sentencing, but it's a great pre-trial strategy.

[cstanleytech]

134. OH, thank you for taking the time to explain it as it makes more sense now. nt

[Smarmie Doofus]

57. K and R. Thanks for posting. n/t

[msanthrope]

82. Manning was creating nooses, and gathering metal for self harm.....

10:28 PM EST Overgaard told the court that while detained in Kuwait Manning had “created nooses” and “gathered metal to harm himself.” Coombs had no reaction to this when given a chance to rebut argument that professional and records should be made available to the government.

Overgaard indicated the government wanted to use notes from Kuwait on Manning’s mental health condition to argue putting him in maximum custody, on prevention of injury status or suicide risk was justified. Coombs said material from Kuwait could be referenced if it had influenced brig psychiatrists or decisions made by commanding officers. However, it did not have any influence it was irrelevant.

The judge granted this order to look at records from evaluations after 2009.

10:23 PM EST Cpt. Angel Overgaard argued a motion for court order for mental health care professionals and records. Overgaard wanted to be able to speak to psychiatrists that had treated or had contact with Manning. She alleged the prosecution wasn’t able to question certain individuals because they claimed they needed a waiver. Coombs said none of these people had been told not to talk to the government and, if there really was a problem, he would tell these psychiatrists they should respond to government requests for testimony.

http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/08/28/bradley-manning-august-motion-hearing-day-1-live-blog/

How interesting that up until now, the government has not been able to question the government mental health workers who saw this suicidal behavior in Kuwait.

[Solly Mack]

85. k/r

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

99. Obama, being a fan of transparency in government, should pardon him if convicted.

[randome]

101. I think he should be shown some leniency since his superiors were negligent.

But people working in military intelligence cannot be given a green light to hand over documents to foreign nationals, either.

Can a President, instead of issuing a pardon, reduce someone's sentence?

[white_wolf]

104. Yes he can. I think the term is to commute the sentence.

[randome]

106. Had it on the tip of my tongue. Thanks.

[Luminous Animal]

120. Kevin and others are tweeting Manning's testimoney. See my DU post here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021902885