General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums15,000 children killed in Gaza by Israel.
Source U.N.
Reported by CBS Weekend Evening News.
Easterncedar
(2,337 posts)demmiblue
(36,898 posts)RockRaven
(15,019 posts)They are fairly persistent in showing their ass that way.
edisdead
(1,958 posts)Just so we are clear . You are willing to break the forum rules by name calling a portion of the userbase.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/unicef-says-over-13000-children-killed-gaza-israel-offensive-2024-03-17/
Yeah, I believe anything the Gaza government says, like I trust Putin, Xi Jinping, Jabba the Kim, and the Iranian Governments too.
Chainfire
(17,656 posts)AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Eko
(7,369 posts)Those numbers are wrong (and they could be) but when someone asks you how many you think have been killed you have no answer. It almost seems if you are screaming "FAKE NEWS" and when someone asks you what it really is at least according to you, you have no answer. Great.
DaBronx
(305 posts)There is absolutely no way that Hamas govt, which controls everything, including media reports and propaganda, can be trusted. None of us have an answer as to the truth. It will require several independent and trusted entities to make an estimate, which still may be hard. But you choose to attack the post- why? You make it personal and why is that?
ExciteBike66
(2,376 posts)Don't hide behind "hamas numbers" and pretend kids are not being bombed.
DaBronx
(305 posts)You are putting forth lies that people are not acknowledging thousands of deaths. Everyone here knows there are thousands of deaths but no one here knows the actual magnitude.
edisdead
(1,958 posts)Hamas is guilty of breaking Geneva convention by putting civilians in harms way. Israel is also guilty. This is meant to tear the world apart.
DaBronx
(305 posts)You are making personal accusations and spewing nastiness.
Have a peaceful evening.
Eko
(7,369 posts)regarding that is false. Do we? The answer to that is no, we don't. That is a separate point than whether they can be trusted which the answer to that is also no. Hamas will do what they think is advantageous to them, if that includes releasing numbers that are as true as possible they would do that. They would also do the inverse and inflate the numbers or even decrease them if that profited them.
Why would they release numbers that are true? 1-The amount of civilian deaths could inflame people around the world and help them. 2-They can be verified to a certain degree and are considered valid. "The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank rivals of Hamas say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions." "The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis, said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organizations Health Emergencies Program. But they largely reflect the level of death and injury. In previous wars, the ministrys counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israels tallies. "
Hamas are terrorist, no doubt about that. But there is data out there that suggests that this could indeed be correct numbers and just falling back to everything they say is false because they are terrorists is just not true. Trust them, no. Use history to see if they may be telling the truth on this subject, yes. Just saying that your enemy is always wrong is a very dangerous place to go. It leaves you open to what and who your enemy really is and their capabilities. Are the numbers correct? Probably, based off of the previous times they have reported civilian deaths. But that is not a 100% certainty so realize that Hamas are terrorists and could be lying. Absent better sources and numbers I think its a fair track of what is happening there.
See? That is what you do when someone presents information that you don't agree with. You look into it. You see what the information is that backs up your point. You present it in a way that lets a conversation happen with it. Really, after all this information are you still saying that anything the Gaza ministry says is a lie?
I checked myself, I was good. I took a hard look, still good.
Thanks!
womanofthehills
(8,781 posts)No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health
The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts
.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
Chainfire
(17,656 posts)You want to ignore the fact that huge numbers of women and children, who were in fact, innocent victims, have died in the unrestricted warefare that Israel is waging on the population of Gaza
Now, what is your estimate is it that no children have been killed, 20, 50, 100, 1000? How many do you think are acceptable and how many more do you think will be justified. If you are going to dispute numbers, provide alternative numbers and sources. I don't trust information coming from either HAMAS or from Israel because, as Churchill told us, "In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies."
I won't give a pass on such dodges, because personally, my problem is that I couldn't tell the difference in a dead Palestinan child and a dead Israeli child; I value the lives of all children equally.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)do it. I'll wait for numbers from people not terrorists.
You want to trust terrorists and their information, by all means, you do you.
The Chinese government says they don't supply fentanyl precursors, harvest organs, and don't brutalize the people in Xinjiang.
The Russian government says Ukraine started the war.
Trump says he's innocent of all charges.
Why not believe those proven liars too? Or is it because it's directed and Israel and Israel is the most evil place on Earth. I mean, if they would just lay down their arms and leave, there would be no problems.
Chainfire
(17,656 posts)You have no facts, so you have no standing to challenge other's numbers. I am done with you on this one, I have no desire to play dodge ball.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Chainfire
(17,656 posts)edisdead
(1,958 posts)Do you think Israels response Absolves Hamas of being terrorists?
Hamas provoked a response (however over the top) by attacking civilians, murdering, rapping, beating, torture g and finally taking them hostage and upon doing so they went and hid behind colitizens in Gaza. None of these actions can be dismissed regardless of the over the top response by Israel. If I rattle a hornets nest and I get stung by every single hornet I can hate the hornets all I want, but it was I who trampled on their dwelling.
Chainfire
(17,656 posts)What Israel is doing is making war on the population of Gaza. Some people will not recognize that difference because to admit it would be an admission of the guilt of the Israeli government. It is a case of "Israel can do no wrong" regardless of what they do, because they are Israel.
Alpeduez21
(1,759 posts)So not only are you claiming these numbers are made up by Hamas you are also claiming the UN has no credibility. If the numbers are false as you claim everyone using these numbers are as untrustworthy as the hamas elected gaza govermoment. If the number were a thousand would you believe that? 2500? You dont trust the UN so who do you trust? Or is the source less important than the message you want delivered?
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)that says that.
obamanut2012
(26,154 posts)DaBronx
(305 posts)You are spewing nastiness to peaceful people.
No one is doubting that many have been killed by a govt that we want to see a leadership change. At the same time no one mentions that Hamas initiated this war with a 9/11 attack.
And what about the hostages? Their families? The victims? The victims who now are in mental institutions unable to deal with what they experienced? Where is your empathy for them? Or is it only ok to support the innocent civilians of Gaza?
But you keep doing you
I wont excuse Israel but how much blame for the civilians deaths goes to Hamas for attacking civilians in Israel, then hosing behind civilians in Gaza and refusing to release the hostages? Surely there must be some responsibility on them. NO?
whathehell
(29,096 posts)AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)is just so honest, truthful, and humanistic. Ask the 1200 they slaughtered and took hostage.
But again, our Jewish blood is cheap.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)instead of evading it?
womanofthehills
(8,781 posts)Mortality reporting is a crucial indicator of the severity of a conflict setting, but it can also be inflated or under-reported for political purposes. Amidst the ongoing conflict in Gaza, some political parties have indicated scepticism about the reporting of fatalities by the Gaza Ministry of Health.
The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts. A comparison between the Gaza MoH and Israeli Foreign Ministry mortality figures for the 2014 war yielded an 8·0% discrepancy.2
Public scepticism of the current reports by the Gaza MoH might undermine the efforts to reduce civilian harm and provide life-saving assistance.
Using publicly available information
we compared the Gaza MoH's mortality reports with a separate source of mortality reporting and found no evidence of inflated rates. We conducted a temporal analysis of cumulative-reported mortality within Gaza for deaths of Gazans as reported by the MoH and reported staff member deaths from the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), from Oct 7 to Nov 10, 2023. These two data sources used independent methods of mortality verification, enabling assessment of reporting consistency.
We observed similar daily trends, indicating temporal consistency in response to bombing events until a spike of UNRWA staff deaths occurred on Oct 26, 2023, when 14 UNRWA staff members were killed, of whom 13 died in their homes due to bombings (figure). Subsequent attacks raised the UNRWA death rate while MoH hospital services diminished until MoH communications and mortality reporting collapsed on Nov 10, 2023. During this period, mortality might have been under-reported by the Gaza MoH due to decreased capacity. Cumulative reported deaths were 101 UNRWA staff members and 11?078 Gazans over 35 days (appendix p 3). By comparison, an average of 4884 registered deaths occurred per year in 201519 in Gaza.5
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
womanofthehills
(8,781 posts)are alive - that's why so many kids have their name and birthday written on their arms and legs. People on podcasts have said they check the list regularly to see if loved ones are dead or alive.
Thousand of dead babies on the list with their names and ages listed .You see this list online.
Then -we have all the amputations, blind kids, burned kids, etc. About 75,000 of Gazan's are
severely injured -so probably 40,000 or more are kids. The US should have a ship in Gaza to do rehab for these kids - they need treatment, prosthesis and wheelchairs. Can you even imagine a child losing their legs, having no wheelchair or no family?
Plus, the thousands under the rubble - could be as high as 10,000.
According to UNRWA, one in three children under 2 is severely malnourished. There is no infant formula, milk etc - so lots of newborns are dying because malnourished mothers can not breastfeed.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)I know. . .in western civilization, our blood is, was, and always will be cheap.
Avalon Sparks
(2,566 posts)What is the number? The number of harmed, slaughtered and raped and tortured Palestines is always higher.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Again, there's an anti-"Israel" protest at Columbia right now that tells me all I need to know where pro-Palestinian people stand.
And then there's the right wing "The Jews won't replace us."
Ignored.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)Its not black or white. Lines HAVE been crossed. Why would you apologize for killing children?
edisdead
(1,958 posts)Thanks for bringing it up. They were guilty of qarcrimes on Oct 7th and they are and have been guilty of war crimes by hiding behind civilians and keeping hostages.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)Thats messed up. I guess brown childrens lives dont matter. Bless your heart!
whathehell
(29,096 posts)I remember reading of tee shirts worn by some IDF. It had a picture of a pregnant Palestinian woman in the crosshairs with the words " Two for One".
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)No Oct 7, no war. It's that simple.
No Pearl Harbor, no Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
FAFO.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 23, 2024, 07:23 PM - Edit history (1)
nor am I doing an "Israel/Jews bad" thing, and I won't have you or anyone else characterize me that way.
The October 7 attack was a HORRENDOUS crime, in my opinion, and I know NO one on this board who disagrees with that. What I don't understand is the response to it, why the Israelis aren't narrowly targeting the PEPERPETRATORS instead of mowing down innocent women and kids.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Hamas uses schools and hospitals to hide munitions.
Germany torpedoed the Lusitania for the same reason in 1915. Britain used the cruise liner to put war supplies. Germany even warned not to get on because it will be torpedoed if located.
Same thing. Why don't anti-Israel people see this? Or is it that anything that rejects their narrative is ignored. "My mind is made up. . .don't confuse me with anything else."
This is what the right wing does.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)Equating the two is like saying that being anti-Trump equals being anti-American. It doesn't work. Bye now.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)You got called out, couldn't handle it, tried to save face, then ran away.
Peace.
choie
(4,111 posts)It's Israel. As in the government of.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)I guess Israel should just roll over and do nothing after 1200 of their people get slaughtered and the innocent civilians in Gaza celebrated on the streets.
This wouldn't have happened if Hamas didn't attack Israel. FAFO, Hamas!
Bit the American left hates Israel and that's all that matters. Their slaughtered people mean NOTHING.
I am sick of this. I'm tired of Jewish blood being cheap. I am less of a human worldwide because I am Jewish and I've lived in five countries and been to another 11.
Jewish children get killed by Hamas and it's Israel's fault because Hamas is fighting against the "apartheid." Israel fights back and "what about the children?" Where was your indignation when Elisa children got killed in 75 years of terrorist attacks?
obamanut2012
(26,154 posts)That has nothing to do with the situation in Gaza, which you refuse to admit is am international crisis and disgrace. Because it is.
Also, an eye for an eye is not part of the rules of international warfare, as in, the actual laws.
NickB79
(19,274 posts)The data and graphs presented, using Hamas' own numbers, is damning.
obamanut2012
(26,154 posts)" The casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters."
That is 100% not true, and you know it. The casualties are overwhelmingly civilians.
DaBronx
(305 posts)On October 6 they were all alive, as were the Israelis. What changed? Anybody want to hazard a guess?
TheRealNorth
(9,500 posts)There is no infrastructure left to pull out bodies from under the rubble.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Where were you the last 75 years when Hamas, the PLO, and Hezbollah killed Jewish children and raped Jewish women? The world and the American left seemed rather silent.
Again, Jewish blood is cheap.
agingdem
(7,863 posts)remember the hospital Israel supposedly bombed and hundreds of lives were lost...didn't happen...it was a Hama missile and it hit the parking lot...
Think. Again.
(8,484 posts)Is it still okay with you if the Israeli government kills even ONE child? ONE. CHILD.?
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Thank you for showing your true colors.
Israel is wrong for everything.
Go join the protests at Columbia protesting Jews.
obamanut2012
(26,154 posts)It is really gross, and it should be banned here.
And, you never answer questions, you only throw up strawmen HAMAS HAMAS HAMAS
Think. Again.
(8,484 posts)...calling for the obliteration of hamas.
edisdead
(1,958 posts)Think. Again.
(8,484 posts)...I'm not a military strategist.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Think. Again.
(8,484 posts)No, I did not say that..
There does seem to a problem with some discussions here on DU when things that people say are either misrepresented, twisted, taken out of context, or even attributed when they are not said.
Luckily, this a good community and people understand when mistakes are made and are also willing to correct them.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)If a man rapes a woman and she kills him, did she go too far?
If a terrorist organization spends 75 years attacking a country, then one day kills 1200 over its people, it's the country's fault and their reaction to the brutality is wrong.
I wish you would think again.
Think. Again.
(8,484 posts)...but I need to at least correct yours...
The situation with Israel and Gaza is more similar to a woman killing her rapist's entire neighborhood.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Not anymore. We're tired of it. And if I get "so you can slaughter others. . ." Oct 7th started it.
Pearl Harbor started WW2. Hiroshima and Nagaski ended. FAFO, MFers. FAFO.
Too bad Israel has become the left's punching bag . Those poor Hamas freedom fighters and the ones that celebrated Oct 7th in the streets of Gaza. Oh woah is them.
But us. . screw us. Our blood's been cheap for centuries. Now we hide our language is nice political language "Israel is wrong." When most Jews knows exactly what that means. . .all you have to do is look at USC and Columbia.
We Jews are tired of the BS and our blood being cheap. Where were you when we were slaughtered on Oct 7th? Don't answer. I don't care.
Think. Again.
(8,484 posts)...but you're lashing out at the wrong person.
David__77
(23,549 posts)AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)My rejection of this can from the Reuters article reporting it that says the UN is using numbers provided by the Hamas elected Gaza Government.
Which proven liars do you also believe? Xi Jinpng says only 80K died in Covid and zero-Covid worked. Believe that?
Putin says Ukraine started the war. Believe that?
Trump said he never knew Epstein. Believe that?
But Hamas is to believed because in your mind, it is confirmation that Israel is bad. Confirmation bias is a terrible thing.
Give me numbers not provided by Hamas.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)That would be a fucking joke.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)I trust nothing a terrorist, Republican, or Chinese communist party member says.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)I would look out the window to see what color it really was.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Same reason we have been demonized for centuries.
Did you trust when Israel reported 1200 killed on Oct 7th or did they lie about that? After all, if those lying people said the sky was blue, you would look out the window to see what color it really was.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)He has shit on every Democratic president that I can remember. He uses America for his own purposes. Netanyahu is in charge of Israel and he is leading them down a dark path. . He is Israel's face to the world.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Did you trust what they said on Oct 7? Or did they lie about it?
Autumn
(45,120 posts)the US in matters of war you are talking about the administration in charge and the cabinet they have put together . I trust Israel's government about 10 7 as much as I trusted the US government when Bush and trump were in office. Do I trust Israel's government about 10 7 ? It happened and Netanyahu was warned about it in advance and did nothing to stop it. . So no, just as I didn't trust Bush . He too was warned about an attack in advance and did noting about it9 11.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Yet you believe Bibi had advance knowledge, which was info that came out of Israel.
So, anything that makes Israel look bad you trust. If it doesn't, you don't believe it.
Gotcha. Enough said. You keep moving goal posts and not answering a simple yes or no question.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)I would like to say this isn't typical for those that attack Israel, but it is.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)atreides1
(16,094 posts)I don't trust Netanyahu or the IDF!
I also don't trust the US Supreme Court, or any spineless member of congress!
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)I guess when Israel reported Oct 7th, your immediate response was "bullshit. fake news" because you don't trust Bibi or the IDF.
sarisataka
(18,792 posts)However, how does that justify attacking Jewish students in the United States?
JustAnotherGen
(31,924 posts)But just enough Americans enjoy seeing their anti Semitic sentiments said out loud. They aren't that different from the racists in the South during desegregation. I could see some of our fellow Americans screaming and yelling at Jewish grade school children for the fun of it. Sickos.
womanofthehills
(8,781 posts)and one million followers on X.
IFNOTNOW - organization of American Jewish institutions - tens of thousands of members.
Stated Goal- ''Organizing our community to end U.S. support for Israels apartheid system and demand equality, justice, and a thriving future for all Palestinians and Israelis.
Students for Justice in Palestine - 200 charters on campuses across US and Canada.
On its website it says its mission is -to empower, unify, and support student organizers as they push forward demands for Palestinian liberation & self-determination on their campuses.
Brown University - BrownU Jews for Ceasefire Now
sarisataka
(18,792 posts)But completely avoids the question I asked.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)in saying "It doesn't" justify attacking Jewish students here, but neither does speculating on the number of Jewish women raped by Hamas.
malaise
(269,200 posts)Hamas
How dare anyone criticize a freedom fighting organization like Hamas.
But but GeNoCIde!11
That is all.
Mountainguy
(545 posts)Because hamas and other gazan terrorist groups love doing that .
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-780613
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Response to Cattledog (Original post)
Post removed
Eko
(7,369 posts)"Parents, using their children as fucking sandbags". That's not "fucking" happening. Take a breath.
Eko.
what a sickening comment instead of blaming those
Responsible for killing those children are hike KNOWING they are killing children
NickB79
(19,274 posts)Oh well, guess we'll never really know
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)and the world blames Israelis for not protecting them.
Remember, our blood is cheap and if we die, history has shown no one truly cares. But if we say enough is enough and fight back, we're wrong.
claudette
(3,605 posts)15,000 kids used as shields. Thats preposterous and Israels famous justification for genocide. Killing children wont win the war.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Don't answer. I already know. . .like those protestors at USC and Columbia protesting Jewish students.
We're done. Blocked.
Brenda
(1,072 posts)Duer for, but I won't, yet. Because well, we all know don't we?
You are repeating Fox News lies about the protestors at USC, Columbia, Yale, etc.
They are not protesting Jewish students.
They are protesting the deaths of Palestinians.
Israel. A nation surrounded by people that would just as soon see them wiped off the planet. Some nations leaders have actually said as much. Have listened to their neighbors threaten this shit for decades. DECADES. And these are people who had hundreds of thousands or people killed in the Holocaust. When someone attacks them the way that Hamas did there was never ever going to be any fucking around and if a government such as Hamas puts their own civilians in harms way, they should own it.It doesnt absolve Usrael of their response but Hamas is putting their own civilians in harms way after provoking a war.
Israel almost had no choice but to attack harshly (I do not accept that they had to go this far) or they would just be sitting ducks, for everyone.
It seems to me that people think the only response Israel should have done was to try and go door to door trying to root out all of Hamas. That results only in many more Israelis getting killed. Why would Israel be required to give up more of its own lives? Hamas attacked a nation, promised to attack again (still to this day) and nobody seems to want to hold them accountable for the tactics they are using. The only response I hear is more Israelis should die in order to root out Hamas or that Israel should just suck it up. All while how many of their people taken as hostages still have not been freed.
I dont have to like Israels response to understand it.
Avalon Sparks
(2,566 posts)NickB79
(19,274 posts)Because they've survived being attacked in three separate wars in the 20th century by nations with the stated goal to wipe away Israel and exterminate the Jewish people.
And before that, the Nazis tried to do the same to the Jewish people, with global ambitions.
And on Oct 7 they were attacked by Hamas despite a ceasefire agreement at the time, whose charter calls for the genocide of the Jews.
Oh, and there's the whole issue of how Hamas celebrates those who kill Jews as martyrs, to the point that children's TV shows in Gaza promote it.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/kill-all-jews-urges-hamas-tv-host/amp/
Avalon Sparks
(2,566 posts)Just like this one. I know whose side I will always be on, and thats the side of the oppressed for 75 years.
Nothing you say will convince me that this isnt a land grab by genocide.
All anyone needs to do is look at the map changes over the years.
obamanut2012
(26,154 posts)The cognizant dissonance you show is astounding.
obamanut2012
(26,154 posts)And, I can find just as many photos of Israeli children brandishing guns as their parent holds the.
That has nothing to do with the crisis in Gaza, but you just sidestep that.
LexVegas
(6,107 posts)Turbineguy
(37,372 posts)As long as there are enough recruits left.
claudette
(3,605 posts)doesnt bother Israel either to be responsible for the murder thousands of children
Nanjeanne
(5,002 posts)claudette
(3,605 posts)and disgusting. 15,000 innocent NON-HAMAS MEMBERS. How many more children have to die before the world does something to stop It?
enid602
(8,659 posts)Genocide denial is related to Holocaust denial. Both are so dangerous.
NickB79
(19,274 posts)?w=1200&q=70&auto=format&dpr=1
No intelligent person can look at that graph and think those Health Ministry numbers are real.
Sugarcoated
(7,733 posts)of the Gazan government
obamanut2012
(26,154 posts)He is a literally far Right. He is Israeli's Trump.
DaBronx
(305 posts)Support Netanyahu.
And do not support killing innocent civilians in Gaza.
Why cant you understand that Israel can be defended for her people but at the same time not in support of Netanyahu.
The anti semitism on D U is unbelievable.
And yet no one should be surprised.
Response to NickB79 (Reply #37)
Post removed
maxsolomon
(33,419 posts)they were killed as a byproduct of other IDF operations. They and their mothers were in buildings that the IDF attacked.
There is no number of dead children that would ever be acceptable, so, basically, Israel should have done nothing after 10/7 and waited for Hamas' terms to return the hostages.
Israel got their revenge for 10/7 long before there were 15,000 dead Palestinian children. They just cant stop the murdering until they get what Nuttyahoo wants. Total destruction of Gaza.
maxsolomon
(33,419 posts)120? 12?
"Revenge" is a simplification.
claudette
(3,605 posts)have stopped at ONE
maxsolomon
(33,419 posts)and just waited for Hamas' terms on the hostages.
claudette
(3,605 posts)how many dead children. Targeting kids is not defeating Hamas
maxsolomon
(33,419 posts)This is an important distinction, to me at least.
claudette
(3,605 posts)that there are children are in a place where Hamas may be hiding and they bomb it, that might be considered "targeting" or something else.
Duncan Grant
(8,296 posts)A lot of innocent people, who were never responsible for terrorism and without their own army, have died. Sarcasm is a tremendously inhumane response to the loss of so many Palestinian lives.
maxsolomon
(33,419 posts)I really believe that there is no military response Israel could have taken after 10/7 that would be acceptable to those now demanding a unilateral ceasefire and decrying the loss of innocent life. 1 innocent death would be too many.
Hamas' strategy to was to end any remaining moral authority that Israel could claim by retreating with the hostages into the civilian population of Gaza, forcing outsized non-combatant casualties. They have succeeded.
Brenda
(1,072 posts)To see so many inhumane posts? And they are not removed?
maxsolomon
(33,419 posts)See if my post warrants removal.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)Why didn't they go after the actual perpetrators of 10/7 in an undercover
operation the way they did the Black September killers in the 1970's?
It certainly seems more just than slaughtering tens of thousands of innocents.
maxsolomon
(33,419 posts)There was probably a smarter way to go about their military campaign, I agree. Though I've yet to hear what that is.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)I've yet to see anything assessing the number of perpetrators.
Do you have links indicating a number? If not, the question of a special forces op remains.
maxsolomon
(33,419 posts)3,000 Palestinian combatants, 1,000 dead, 600 captured. That's all sketchy and hard to find more info on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel
uponit7771
(90,367 posts)maxsolomon
(33,419 posts)Considering the devastation, I'd guess you'd say that's a distinction without a difference.
Brenda
(1,072 posts)How can you know what's under the rubble? What's under reported by families who are themselves wounded, separated or in distress unable to "report" these deaths?
Fuck Israel.
Chainfire
(17,656 posts)Regardless of the exact number it is too damn many. Israel will not be able to kill their way to peace, security or living space, and the world will remember how this war was prosecuted.
Brenda
(1,072 posts)Biden needs to cut back the money and arms to Israel.
edisdead
(1,958 posts)Arms to Israel isnt about them fighting Hamas. It is about Israel not being wiped off the face of the planet.
Likely the entire intent of all of this was to weaken U.S. Politics, and to weaken Israel.
TexasDem69
(1,850 posts)Israel is perhaps the only dependable ally the U.S. has in the Middle East, and certainly our best.
TeamProg
(6,285 posts)manicdem
(394 posts)Did they ever revise the casualty numbers down after the supposed hospital bombing.at the start of the war?
And what are the hamas combatants killed? Think they were estimated at 13,000 last month, some of whom would be child soldiers. Could be in the ballpark since Hamas was estimated to be at 30,000 to 45,000. Are they part of the stats the health ministry gives out?
Hamas started the war and could give up at anytime to stop it. Israel needs to root them out quickly and let the rebuilding begin.
Mountainguy
(545 posts)of Hamas provided statistics is one of the mind-boggling things that have happened during this war.
They give numbers and they are reported, here and other places, as stone facts. No questions if they are accurate, if the deaths are actually from Israel, and how many of those dead are fighters.
I also hear about how people are starving, but every picture I see from Gaza is of a sea of healthy and well fed looking military aged men.
Violet_Crumble
(35,977 posts)I go on what international organisations are citing, and they happen to have relied going back at least as far as 2014 on a combination of statistics and names from the Gaza Health Ministry and independent sources.
'In response, the Palestinian Authority Health Ministry released the names, ages, genders and ID numbers of 7,028 Palestinians who were killed in Gaza, as collected by the ministry there. According to Reuters, the list was analyzed by Zeina Jamaluddine, Francesco Checchi and Oona Campbell of the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine and found to be sound. Their findings appeared in the medical journal The Lancet.
"Our simple analysis indicates high excess mortality among Gazan population groups that are likely to be largely civilian, including humanitarian and health-care workers, indicating a substantial number of Palestinians killed during this period," they wrote.
"Assessments of Palestinian Ministry of Health data validity in the 2014 conflict had shown them to be accurate, and we saw no obvious reason to doubt the validity of the data between October 7 and 26, 2023."'
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-26/ty-article-magazine/.premium/20-000-dead-and-counting-the-battle-over-verifying-gazas-death-toll/0000018c-a0ae-d92d-addf-eaff010a0000
A few months back I dispensed with actual numbers and now go with WAY FUCKING TOO MANY DEAD INNOCENTS.
'I also hear about how people are starving, but every picture I see from Gaza is of a sea of healthy and well fed looking military aged men.'
Ooh. I can play that clumsy game as well!
I also hear about how Americans are homeless, but every picture I see from the US is a sea of entitled people parking expensive cars in the driveways of their expensive homes.
See how stupid it sounds? I'd suggest you open yr eyes and start looking at the photos of destruction and suffering coming out of Gaza. They're not hard to find, and I honestly don't believe anyone who has an opinion on Gaza could not have seen them.
Mountainguy
(545 posts)They have one source. Hamas.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,788 posts)Remember the celebrating on the streets of Gaza after Oct. 7th? I remember watching it too.
But those killed were just Jews and our Jewish blood has been cheap in western civilization for at least 1500 years.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)military units linked to murders and rapes are being sat on by Secretary Blinken.
https://www.propublica.org/article/israel-gaza-blinken-leahy-sanctions-human-rights-violations
Goddessartist
(1,882 posts)I have to take breaks from here sometimes, but wanted to post it. Just emailed it to myself.
The IDF is disgusting.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)Having heard nothing about it from other sources, I thought it important to share.
Ping Tung
(723 posts)and the usual excuses, rationales, and downright lies.
maxsolomon
(33,419 posts)It's a war in a dense urban landscape. The only way to prevent any children being killed in that context is to not have a war.
Ping Tung
(723 posts)All wars start with one side or both sides claiming to have a "just cause". In this case it's both sides. All wars end, usually with negotiations and give and take. The question should be for both sided "Why not now?"
It doesn't make a damned bit of difference who wins the war to someone who's dead. Yossarian from Catch-22
edisdead
(1,958 posts)IIsrael invaded Israel on Oct 7th?
Ping Tung
(723 posts)But, I think you probably know who I meant when I said "both sides". Both of those sides are murdering civilians.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)in that context is to not have a war"
Correct, which is why Israel should have chosen a TARGETED response rather than one of mass slaughter.
edisdead
(1,958 posts)Boots on the ground means more Israeli deaths. Why would Israel decide to go that route? Why is the question not Why the fuck is Hamas hiding behind civilians?
Seriously why do I NEVER see that asked and why do I NEVER see that criticism. Its like everyone is just fucking cool with Hamas using civilians as shields.
No, I do not like Israels response but the fact is if Hamas wasnt hiding behind civilians there is likely a whole lot less civilian death. For thatatter had Hamas not attacked
.. Wait for it
. CIVILIANS in the first ducking place there DEFINITELY WOULD BE A METRIC SHIT TON LESS CIVILIAN DEATHS.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)and I never WOULD say it, so stop with the accusations!..I am part Jewish myself, so don't even think of going there..As for "putting boots on the ground", that was NOT what I suggested, as you'd know had you even bothered to read my post.
My suggestion was to TARGET the actual perpetrators of the October 7 attack via an undercover operation as was done in the 1970's after the murder of the Olympic athletes In Munich.
You can find someone else to answer your questions regarding Hamas. Your baseless and appalling accusation leaves me with NO desire to communicate further with you.
maxsolomon
(33,419 posts)Israel may have had informants inside Gaza, but not at the scale to find and kill 2,400 men.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)are and I doubt that you do either.
We do know their much vaunted security system failed MISERABLY on October 7 and that this has generated many questions that are thus far unanswered. Have a nice day.
Oopsie Daisy
(2,685 posts)obamanut2012
(26,154 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(2,685 posts)Through their cowardly efforts of blending-in with civilians and hiding themselves and their supplies and centers of operation among civilian targets, they have WIDENED the war so that innocent people are affected. This includes food and medical care. Hamas are the reason that these things have been in short supply. Blame Hamas. This is their war. They can end it, but they won't. Why?
LexVegas
(6,107 posts)budkin
(6,721 posts)Haven't you heard?