General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJohnSJ
(92,435 posts)threatening, intimidating, and bullying Jews is antisemitic, and cannot be tolerated.
If someone is engaged in violence, vandalism against Jews, they need to be arrested and charged appropriately, and if they are found guilty, face the consequences.
Swede
(33,295 posts)nt
JohnSJ
(92,435 posts)revoked and deported
whathehell
(29,096 posts)and I am, at the same time, against the Netanyahu policy in Gaza. They are completely different issues.
womanofthehills
(8,781 posts)Many Jewish groups are there - like Jewish Voices for Peace students among other Jewish peace groups .
JohnSJ
(92,435 posts)Because someone identifies as a demographic group, doesnt mean they arent antagonistic to that group
and just because someone is born Jewish doesnt mean they practice it, or are not anti-Jewish
Norman Finkelstein is an example
https://jewishinsider.com/2024/01/rep-jamaal-bowman-praises-speaker-who-celebrated-oct-7-hamas-attacks/
here is information about the JVP
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/jewish-voice-peace-jvp-what-you-need-know
and the JVP doesnt speak for the majority of Jews either
Just as Clarence Thomas, Candice Owens, Tim Scott, etc. do not speak for African Americans
Mark.b2
(261 posts)Dorian Gray
(13,503 posts)out of control and it's at a full boil spilling out of the pan.
snot
(10,538 posts)"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable."
I've never been able to understand: if the world--esp. the US and UK--thought it was important for the Jewish people to have their own nation (and I don't mean to question that here), why did we not donate some of our own land, instead of abetting the stealing of the Palestinians'? I realize that Middle Eastern history is long and tragic, with crimes committed on all sides; but no matter how I try to slice things, I come back to wondering why it was fair to destroy or steal the land and homes of Palestinians in order to make room for the newcomers. I imagine that students today may struggle with the same question.
History around the world is packed with examples of one people conquering and stealing land from one another. It's time for us to think practically yet humanely about how to decide whether and when it should be allowed, whether there should be a time-limit on how far back we look (should we return the US to indigenous Americans? Should portions of northern France belong to the Brits, or should those portions of Britain conquered by William the Conqueror belong to France? Which parts of Ukraine should belong to whom?), when land should be returned to the displaced, or what kind of reparations should be made to those displaced, and what the processes for deciding and enforcing all of that should look like, etc.
LeftInTX
(25,595 posts)EllieBC
(3,042 posts)get to take the tech and infrastructure? Because you want to run the place, build it up I say.
ecstatic
(32,740 posts)and infrastructure in this country. I hope I'm wrong in the way I'm interpreting your comments.
madaboutharry
(40,231 posts)You need to learn some history.
This video from Malcolm Nance is a good place to start.:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/132220269
Cha
(297,774 posts)snot
(10,538 posts)Thousands of years ago, most people (he says "everyone," but since there were cities here and there, let's say he meant most) in Palestine were nomadic, and they included both Jews and non-Jews.
After WWI, Palestinian land was "ceded to" (colonized by) Britain.
Britain (having decided it was to their economic/strategic advantage) issued a declaration recognizing that Palestine used to be a home to more Jews and invented the concept of a Jewish "right of return," and began encouraging Jewish immigration there. (At this point, Jews still constituted a relatively tiny proportion of the population there.)
Many non-Jewish Palestinians (many of whom were by this time Muslim) didn't appreciate this development; but Jews started immigrating there anyway. Some non-Jewish people were also immigrants, but the Jewish population increased faster than the Muslim population.
Muslim and Jewish militant and terrorist groups arose, and clashes occurred.
The Brits decided there needed to be a 2-state solution. The U.N. backed this idea. Jews liked the plan, since until then they'd had no state there for thousands of years (if ever?); but Muslims didn't, since until Britain and its allies had started encouraging Jewish immigration there, Muslims had vastly outnumbered Jewish people and did not like the idea of being excluded from large portions of lands where they until recently had or in some cases still predominated.
After that, all kinds of warfare ensued in fits and starts involving much of the Muslim world vs. the Jewish people and their colonial allies, and both sides committed lots of atrocities; but generally, the Jewish side kept winning. But many or most Muslims never actually surrendered; they just got herded into what are essentially giant, outdoor concentration camps. Many aspects of these herdings were illegal under international law, as recognized in numerous UN resolutions condemning Israel's actions.
Again, the history is complex and bloody, and I realize I'm skipping over a lot of it; but I still come back to, why should the israelis have greater rights to Palestinian lands than the indigenous Muslims do? And I don't mean to exclude the possibility that Israelis do have greater rights; but I feel that in this situation as in so many others, there's a lot of smoke blown, and the reasons we're given are mostly ad-hoc rationalizations for selfish interests rather than rational principles consistently applied; and what we end up with in practice is "might makes right."
And I'd like to see us do better.
yardwork
(61,712 posts)Normally, most progressive people would side with the tiny minority but apparently that goes out the window when the minority of which we speak are Jews.
Jewish people in the Middle East were being massacred, as they had been in Europe. The world thought it might be a good idea to protect them. The solution was imperfect but not intended to be evil.
snot
(10,538 posts)Jews were a tiny minority in Palestinian lands at the time when the Brits first decided to start encouraging Jews to migrate there, which was after the first WW.
I have no problem with the idea of a Jewish homeland; my problem is that the allies who pushed it donated somebody else's land for it instead of their own.
Happy Hoosier
(7,412 posts)It wasnt until after the 47-48 war that Israel seized large tracts of land following the fighting. And of course, many Arabs who stayed within the borders of Israel retained their land. Thats not to say there were some terrible atrocities in the 47-48 war.
snot
(10,538 posts)from https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208638/ :
The purpose of this study, which falls into two main parts, is to give the reader an opportunity to appraise the policies, practices and measures adopted by the Israeli authorities since 1948 which have proved prejudicial to the fundamental rights of the Palestinian people.
As a result of these acts, land and property belonging to the Palestinians who had left their country fell into the hands of the Israeli population and authorities after the Arab-Israeli war of 1948.
This study on the Jewish acquisition of land in Palestine shows that there were several stages in the dispossession of the Arabs and that this was effected despite the objections of the international community, which had recommended in General Assembly resolution 194 (III) that Palestinian Arabs wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so.
The history of the acquisition of agricultural land in Palestine and of the land cultivation system before partition will give the reader same idea of the disparity between Jews and Arabs with respect to land ownership in Palestine. The State of Israel has perpetuated this disparity, mainly through the confiscation of land belonging to the Palestinian Arabs and its policy of Jewish settlements, which is also discussed in this study. The acquisition of land in Palestine cannot be discussed without giving the background to the ownership of agricultural land in the country.
Much more at the link. See also:
From Human Rights Watch re- Palestinian ownership within Israel: "Israel: Discriminatory Land Policies Hem in Palestinians - Palestinian Towns Squeezed While Jewish Towns Grow," at https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians
and re- Israeli theft of lands within the Palestinian territories, from Amnesty International, "Israels Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession," at https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/ .
I have no personal knowledge of any of these facts; but it appears that a majority of countries have a much more pro-Palestinian point of view than the US and UK do.
Response to yardwork (Reply #22)
Post removed
sarisataka
(18,806 posts)*sigh* you did
whathehell
(29,096 posts)yardwork
(61,712 posts)I'm not understanding your shorthand.
Happy Hoosier
(7,412 posts)You correctly noted that Palestine never existed as a state.
In fact Palestinians werent a unique ethnicity. They were part of a broad Arabic population and Palestine was one place they lived.
One correction is that the Palestine was occupied by the British in WWI and controlled the area as the Mandate of Palestine through WWII. It was never a British colony.
You touched on Palestinian Muslims resisting the partition but missed some important elements, I think. They were used to dominating the region politically during the Ottoman empire. During the Ottoman period, Christians and Jews lived in the region as second-class citizens, tolerated, but with no political power. The muslims wanted a continuation of that. They had proposed an Islamic Palestinian state that would tolerate Christians and Jews, but exclude them from political power entirely. The British rejected this.
Most of the land assigned to the Jews in the partition was actually owned by the Jews. Some Muslim Arabs were living on lands that they didnt actually own (some of land was actually originally owned by Arabs living in other places and the Palestinian farmers were tenants or squatters. But thats another discussion.
AloeVera
(976 posts)Not even close.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208638/
The link has lots of other interesting information on how Palestinian lands were taken after 1948 as well. Very sad and unfair for those people no matter how you look at it.
Happy Hoosier
(7,412 posts)But the tone of your source suggests a bias. Never-the-less, I will check. As I understand that, the definition of ownership has been interpreted differently by different factions.... with some interpreteing land occupied by Arab tenant farmers as being owned by them. I'll see if I can find more.
yardwork
(61,712 posts)People sound foolish when they spout opinions but don't bother to learn facts.
sarisataka
(18,806 posts)Do they really mean that?
I expect the answer is yes, they do.
DavidDvorkin
(19,493 posts)TexasDem69
(1,850 posts)Why else would they say it? This position isnt ambiguous. Just like Hamas, these individuals support the annihilation of Israel and its citizens.
And I dont think they should be arrested or charged with crimes because the 1st Amendment protects their abominable beliefs, but dont pretend they are anything other than wannabe Nazis looking for a gas chamber.
yardwork
(61,712 posts)Sympthsical
(9,128 posts)*bangs pans at people* We really need to do something about mental illness in this country.
I thought "We don't want no Jew state" was a nice touch. And the promise of more October 7th's.
They're just anti-oppression, y'all.
Oh and: "You don't have your own culture. All you do is colonize."
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you modern sociology departments.
LeftInTX
(25,595 posts)They're obviously doing this just to antagonize people.
If WYPIPO respond with, "Go back to Palestine", you can be sure, they are filming it.
Best thing to do is to ignore them.
Sympthsical
(9,128 posts)Goodness no.
I'm going to hang this kind of blatant antisemitism around all the necks I can find until Coleridge finally pops out of his grave to let me know, "It's a bit much."
People keep denying this is happening. Constantly. They participate in gaslighting about this racism nonstop.
I'm going to bring it up until people are ashamed enough to go back under their anti-Jew rocks. It's uphill in this climate, but whatkinyado.
I'm of the Left. I ain't letting these people represent me or taint my side with their hatred.
yardwork
(61,712 posts)....between having a beer with a frat boy shouting "Jews will not replace us" and a so-called progressive claiming to be empathetic and progressive while telling Jews to "go back to Poland (ie, Auschwitz), I'd pick the frat boy. At least our disagreement would be sincerely expressed.
Sympthsical
(9,128 posts)I prefer honestly and self-awareness. If you know you're an asshole, well, I can kind of work with that. At least I know going in.
But if you think your hatred and abuse is the morally righteous path, that enters into a quasi-religious space. It reminds me of "Christian love" where they torment LGBT people. "I am just filled with love for everyone."
Yeah, you're not. You're kind of an awful person.
I feel like it's almost more dangerous, because they can justify a lot more to themselves as they behave in a heinous manner. Every step that goes farther logically follows on their path to "justice". And since they seek this "justice" everything is justified.
EllieBC
(3,042 posts)Maybe being unemployable for being an antisemite will help them.
Ex Lurker
(3,816 posts)Happy Hoosier
(7,412 posts)They are openly supporting a terrorist organization. Boot 'em out.
beaglelover
(3,495 posts)Mountainguy
(549 posts)And put on the no-fly list to boot.
They should all be expelled as well, and any faculty providing them support should be fired.
lapucelle
(18,356 posts)betsuni
(25,684 posts)Her roommate is going to be mad at her for ruining her pan.