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David__77

(23,549 posts)
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 09:18 AM Apr 20

An Israeli bomb destroyed 4,000 embryos at a Gaza IVF centre. Where is the outrage?

The majority of Gaza’s frozen embryos have been destroyed

If you, or someone you love, has ever had fertility issues, you will know just how heavy an emotional toll they can take. IVF, in particular, is not easy. You have to inject yourself with hormones. Then you undergo anaesthesia and have an operation to retrieve the eggs. Then the embryos are made. Finally, you implant the embryos. It’s a long, expensive and involved process that can take a physical and emotional toll. At the end, you hope it’ll all be worth it. At the end, you hope there will be a baby.

For many families in Gaza, those hopes were permanently wiped out by one Israeli missile strike. In December, an Israeli shell, possibly provided by the US, hit Gaza City’s largest fertility clinic, the Al Basma IVF centre. The explosion, according to a Reuters piece that came out this week, “blasted the lids off five liquid nitrogen tanks stored in a corner of the embryology unit”. More than 4,000 embryos were destroyed, along with 1,000 more specimens of sperm and unfertilized eggs.

One single strike. That’s all it took. One single strike and thousands of potential lives were wiped out. For at least half of the couples who were patients at the clinic, many of whom had saved up for years to afford treatments, those embryos were their last chance to get pregnant, Bahaeldeen Ghalayini, the obstetrician who established the clinic told Reuters.



https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/20/israel-destroyed-embryos-bombing-ivf-center-gaza

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An Israeli bomb destroyed 4,000 embryos at a Gaza IVF centre. Where is the outrage? (Original Post) David__77 Apr 20 OP
Wow! Hope22 Apr 20 #1
I suspect if Iran had bombed an Israeli IVF center, this would be a major news item. David__77 Apr 20 #2
And some folks here would be celebrating BannonsLiver Apr 20 #8
Really? That is a seriously out of bounds and baseless group smear. Other than some rando spun up burner troll accounts Celerity Apr 21 #25
Of course claudette Apr 21 #74
Madness malaise Apr 20 #3
Gaza will never recover pfitz59 Apr 20 #4
Sadly claudette Apr 21 #73
Yep. He's drooling over all that beachfront property. littlemissmartypants Apr 22 #87
Woah! What a dispiriting, despicable act for future hopeful parents. electric_blue68 Apr 20 #5
Sorry, but this smacks of the MAGATs "baby killers" accusations against pro-abortion activists. Beastly Boy Apr 20 #6
and where is this "information" coming from?... agingdem Apr 21 #55
Embryos are not people. Let's not start acting like evangelicals. BannonsLiver Apr 20 #7
They are not, but they are precious to people phylny Apr 20 #10
Great, but.... BannonsLiver Apr 20 #11
Who is this "you folks" you reference? phylny Apr 20 #12
People who think Gaza is the most important thing in the world ATM. BannonsLiver Apr 21 #41
They are in their homeland and many people want families. David__77 Apr 20 #20
For some reason this reminded me of a Golda Meir quote: Beastly Boy Apr 20 #21
And it is true that Israeli forces have killed many thousand of children very recently. David__77 Apr 20 #22
And it is true that Hamas terrorists put each and every single one of them in the line of fire. Beastly Boy Apr 21 #24
And how many thousands of children have the terrorists killed, and attempted to kill, yagotme Apr 21 #42
I think the point is that those peoples' choice has now been taken away from them. meadowlander Apr 21 #30
Post removed Post removed Apr 21 #40
Gross. meadowlander Apr 21 #49
People with lack of foresight should not have children. AloeVera Apr 21 #32
So it is inhabitable and there's no crisis? Good to know. BannonsLiver Apr 21 #39
Mis-stating my position won't help the morality of your argument... AloeVera Apr 21 #50
This message was self-deleted by its author David__77 Apr 20 #17
So claudette Apr 21 #66
they are embryos not unborn Palestinians. sound like the anti-choice freaks here in the US NoRethugFriends Apr 21 #82
What was claudette Apr 22 #92
congratulations. you sound just like the antis I have to listen to when escorting at a women's clinic NoRethugFriends Apr 22 #97
Oh, please claudette Apr 22 #98
I am listening to what you're putting out, which is pretty clear NoRethugFriends Apr 22 #99
Women go through hell to harvest eggs for the procedure! Hope22 Apr 22 #89
And those claudette Apr 22 #93
I think they quite delight in the act. Hope22 Apr 22 #95
Absolutely claudette Apr 22 #96
Send the article to a Repuke LeftInTX Apr 20 #9
Well now their going Butterflylady Apr 20 #13
There are 1,000,000 abortions every year in the US Mosby Apr 20 #15
If they were forced abortions, perhaps. David__77 Apr 20 #18
Can't wait for you to explain the relevance of this analogy. Beastly Boy Apr 20 #19
Only if they're WYPIPO. Abolishinist Apr 21 #27
Usually TheCynic56 Apr 21 #35
It's intentional then. Mosby Apr 21 #38
To me, too claudette Apr 21 #68
Oh look, another anti Israeal thread. MarineCombatEngineer Apr 20 #14
Spellcheck would help! TheCynic56 Apr 21 #36
Seems to be more of a typo than a misspellig Mossfern Apr 21 #46
It was. MarineCombatEngineer Apr 21 #48
Spell check didn't catch, MarineCombatEngineer Apr 21 #47
Welcome to DU! lapucelle Apr 21 #56
Since you are so keen on correcting people AZSkiffyGeek Apr 21 #59
Profile info TheCynic56 Apr 22 #94
lol Cha Apr 22 #100
Not claudette Apr 21 #65
You're telling me to learn the difference? MarineCombatEngineer Apr 21 #71
Yes claudette Apr 21 #72
I was told Gaza was an open air prison Mountainguy Apr 20 #16
Maybe Netanyahu propping up terroristic Hamas for years with his divide et impera games wasn't such a good idea either Celerity Apr 21 #28
Did Netanyahu "force" Hamas to invade Israel in Oct? yagotme Apr 21 #43
I think they're saying that Israel should have attacked Gaza years ago AZSkiffyGeek Apr 21 #62
Do you read the things you copy and paste? Mountainguy Apr 21 #44
Look on the bright side. lapucelle Apr 21 #61
sorry to disappoint, here you go: Celerity Apr 21 #63
I love it when you bring the receipts. Rock on, Celerity. ❤️ littlemissmartypants Apr 22 #88
Never mind. There is no bright side. N/T lapucelle Apr 21 #69
Hello darkness my old friend. Mountainguy Apr 21 #70
If my landlord gave you the means to kill me RandySF Apr 21 #58
Yeah, so let's kill all the kids there, amirite? ExciteBike66 Apr 21 #51
No kids for us but we'd adopt before IVF. JanMichael Apr 20 #23
The embryo fetishist set heavily overlap with the bigotted shitweasel set RockRaven Apr 21 #26
I don't think you have to be an "embyro fetishist" to understand that it's not straightforward property destruction. meadowlander Apr 21 #29
Hamas are hiding among the embryos. AloeVera Apr 21 #31
You think they wouldnt be? Mountainguy Apr 21 #45
Quick, call the Alabama Supreme Court pfitz59 Apr 21 #33
That's what I say. The GOP needs to get on this. LeftInTX Apr 21 #37
We don't even know if this was intentional or just another bomb, like so many, that land anywhere - that's why war Wonder Why Apr 21 #34
I care more about the 1,200 live people killed on Oct 7. RandySF Apr 21 #52
Bingo! bottomofthehill Apr 21 #53
A voice of fucking reason TexasDem69 Apr 21 #54
Amen! DaBronx Apr 21 #60
I think it's reasonable to consider that response dismissive of this killing of embryos. David__77 Apr 21 #75
How about the thousands killed since? iemanja Apr 21 #76
Where did those numbers come from anyway? RandySF Apr 21 #77
The deaths have been widely reported in the press, and there has been television coverage. iemanja Apr 21 #83
I weep for those too TexasDem69 Apr 21 #78
Hamas is guilty of many things iemanja Apr 21 #79
No, they just hide and fire rockets from within civilian neighborhoods. RandySF Apr 21 #80
I'm told here that their leadership is in Qatar iemanja Apr 21 #86
Those dead TexasDem69 Apr 21 #81
I doubt that iemanja Apr 21 #84
Were you awake in the days after 9/11? DaBronx Apr 21 #57
And that's claudette Apr 21 #64
It's so odd that this *happened* four months ago, but is only being reported now. N/T lapucelle Apr 21 #67
I guess Israeli 'atrocities ' are getting harder and harder revmclaren Apr 21 #85
This message was self-deleted by its author RandySF Apr 22 #90
They were obviously terrorist embryos. Already working for Hamas. Crunchy Frog Apr 22 #91

Celerity

(43,581 posts)
25. Really? That is a seriously out of bounds and baseless group smear. Other than some rando spun up burner troll accounts
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 01:57 AM
Apr 21

(that would be MIRT'ed quite quickly) there are no legit posters here who would post a celebration over an Iranian bombing of an Israeli IVF centre.

That is just a scurrilous, beyond the pale personal group attack.

Shameful to see this dross tossed out here.

claudette

(3,605 posts)
73. Sadly
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 11:01 PM
Apr 21

I think that is right. They will never recover and that is the goal of the current Israeli government - to take over all the land that belongs to the Palestinians.

Beastly Boy

(9,488 posts)
6. Sorry, but this smacks of the MAGATs "baby killers" accusations against pro-abortion activists.
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 12:00 PM
Apr 20

Usually, there are 7 donated viable embryos per single procedure. Only one is being used for actual fertilization. According to CDC,

Based on CDC’s 2021 Fertility Clinic Success Rates Report, approximately 238,126 patients had 413,776 ART (assisted reproductive technology) cycles performed at 453 reporting clinics in the United States during 2021, resulting in 91,906 live births (deliveries of one or more living infants) and 97,128 live born infants.

https://www.cdc.gov/art/artdata/index.html#:~:text=Based%20on%20CDC%27s%202021%20Fertility,and%2097%2C128%20live%20born%20infants.

This comes down to about 414,000 of the nearly 3 million donated embryos being used at all, resulting in about 92,000, or roughly 1 in 32, or 3% of donated embryos ending in live births. And that doesn't take into account the donors who never use their embryos, or the fact that assisted reproductive technology is far more advanced in the US than it is in Gaza.

3% would have been the best outcome were there no war in Gaza. So if IDF gets to be blamed for the destruction of 4,000 fertilized eggs now, who gets the blame for destroying 97% of the fertilized eggs prior to the war? A Zionist conspiracy by complicit Palestinian fertility specialists in Gaza?

But let's put our Handmaids Tale outfits on, but only for long enough to condemn IDF for killing future Palestinian babies, shall we? And while we are at it, let's count all the sperm donations that the terrorists were prevented from making by IDF!

...Oh wait, The Guardian is already doing that: "along with 1,000 more specimens of sperm and unfertilized eggs."

agingdem

(7,863 posts)
55. and where is this "information" coming from?...
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 08:38 PM
Apr 21

let me guess..Hamas's "we're the victims" PR "machine"?....

phylny

(8,390 posts)
10. They are not, but they are precious to people
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 12:17 PM
Apr 20

who want to have a baby. Our daughter went through hell and a lot of expense for their five embryos and is expecting their first, our grandson, in August after an ectopic pregnancy burst one fallopian tube.

They would have been devastated if their entire hope for a family was wiped out in one fell swoop.

Let’s start acting like it matters to others.

BannonsLiver

(16,493 posts)
11. Great, but....
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 12:27 PM
Apr 20

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2024, 12:10 AM - Edit history (1)

Gaza is supposedly uninhabitable yet I’ve read here from folks who desperately want children to be born into that. Pick a lane.

Beastly Boy

(9,488 posts)
21. For some reason this reminded me of a Golda Meir quote:
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 07:12 PM
Apr 20

" Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”

That was in 1973, and she has yet to be proven wrong.

Beastly Boy

(9,488 posts)
24. And it is true that Hamas terrorists put each and every single one of them in the line of fire.
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 12:24 AM
Apr 21

But that's a deflection and you know it full well, don't you?

yagotme

(2,928 posts)
42. And how many thousands of children have the terrorists killed, and attempted to kill,
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 12:33 PM
Apr 21

since the formation of Israel? They are CONSTANTLY launching rockets at Israel. Imagine, what would be happening in Israel for the past several years, if it wasn't for Iron Dome and other anti-missile systems. The Israeli death toll would be MUCH higher. Would that make you feel better?

meadowlander

(4,406 posts)
30. I think the point is that those peoples' choice has now been taken away from them.
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 03:22 AM
Apr 21

Gaza isn't always going to be a war zone and they may not end up living in Gaza forever. But now if they do at any point in the future want to have children, it may no longer be a possibility (for example, for couples that froze embryos before one or the other become infertile or died).

Just because people pre-October 2023 had access to IVF (and chemo, and other medical treatments that can cause infertility, etc.) doesn't mean that a country where 30,000 people have been killed in the past six months and half a million people are facing famine is "inhabitable".

Both of those things (people should be able to they become parents if and when they choose to and it's sad when that is taken away from them and Gaza is in a humanitarian crisis) can easily be true. No lane-picking necessary.

Response to meadowlander (Reply #30)

AloeVera

(976 posts)
32. People with lack of foresight should not have children.
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 08:27 AM
Apr 21

They should have known their land would be made uninhabitable by a raging military machine.

Perhaps poor people shouldn't have children either. Certainly not refugees.

The entitlement of these people!

In case it's needed.

AloeVera

(976 posts)
50. Mis-stating my position won't help the morality of your argument...
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 08:24 PM
Apr 21

Which is basically that Palestinian children should not be born now, into such a world.

So this is how it goes. Destroy a people's land and all they know, immiserate and desolate them including their children, and then use that horrific circumstance to argue that, for the sake of the children! it's best not to bring them into that horrific world.

There are a million children living in that unimaginably ugly world right now. Anyone who has not opposed this "war" can't make the claim now to have the best interests of children at heart.

Yes, Gaza is now uninhabitable as it was planned to be so. But those childless couples desparate to have kids would likely have made great parents by the simple fact that they wanted that child. To destroy their desparate hope, on top of everything else they've had to endure is really kicking people in the teeth when they are already down.

I'm in the lane that opposes that.

Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #7)

claudette

(3,605 posts)
92. What was
Mon Apr 22, 2024, 05:10 AM
Apr 22

Israel’s reasoning for killing embryos except to avoid more Palestinians being born? Use some common sense

Butterflylady

(3,550 posts)
13. Well now their going
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 12:34 PM
Apr 20

To make sure that they're killing Palestinians that aren't even born. Now that sounds like genocide to me.

Beastly Boy

(9,488 posts)
19. Can't wait for you to explain the relevance of this analogy.
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 02:13 PM
Apr 20

Are you talking about women or the "babies"?

In an overwhelming number of instances both the abortions and the donation of embryos are not forced. So it is not the women you are referring to.

I would love for you to explain the difference between embryos and fetuses when the Magat concept of "personhood" is what you are essentially arguing.

Have fun trying to force a square peg of your response into the round hole of the outrage you are demanding. Or explaining why this is not the argument you are making.

Mosby

(16,377 posts)
38. It's intentional then.
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 10:57 AM
Apr 21

Do you or anyone else have evidence that Israel intentionally destroyed the embryos and eggs? So how the fuck is that genocide?

 

TheCynic56

(47 posts)
94. Profile info
Mon Apr 22, 2024, 07:27 AM
Apr 22

Wisconsin is correct. Read again!! 🤦🏼

The field for this states, “Hometown/State/Region”. ✌🏼

claudette

(3,605 posts)
72. Yes
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 10:55 PM
Apr 21

Lots of Jews - even those in my family - are totally against what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza and the West Bank. They certainly aren't anti-semitic.

Mountainguy

(545 posts)
16. I was told Gaza was an open air prison
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 01:05 PM
Apr 20

and that's why raping, killing, and mutilating jews was ok for them.

They have IVF centers in open-air prisons?


It seems like many of you like to ignore that Gazans, with aid from Iran, started this war. They put and kept Hamas in power. The only political rivals Hamas has in Gaza also want to kill Jews. On Oct 7th, many groups besides Hamas, including "civilians' entered Israel and joined in on the pillage.

Celerity

(43,581 posts)
28. Maybe Netanyahu propping up terroristic Hamas for years with his divide et impera games wasn't such a good idea either
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 02:47 AM
Apr 21


For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces

The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group. The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad. Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.

Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm. Toward the end of Netanyahu’s fifth government in 2021, approximately 2,000-3,000 work permits were issued to Gazans. This number climbed to 5,000 and, during the Bennett-Lapid government, rose sharply to 10,000.

Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000. Additionally, since 2014, Netanyahu-led governments have practically turned a blind eye to the incendiary balloons and rocket fire from Gaza. Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.

snip



How Israel Secretly Propped Up Hamas



‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gambled that a strong Hamas (but not too strong) would keep the peace and reduce pressure for a Palestinian state.


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

Just weeks before Hamas launched the deadly Oct. 7 attacks on Israel, the head of Mossad arrived in Doha, Qatar, for a meeting with Qatari officials. For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip — money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them. During his meetings in September with the Qatari officials, according to several people familiar with the secret discussions, the Mossad chief, David Barnea, was asked a question that had not been on the agenda:

Did Israel want the payments to continue? Mr. Netanyahu’s government had recently decided to continue the policy, so Mr. Barnea said yes. The Israeli government still welcomed the money from Doha. Allowing the payments — billions of dollars over roughly a decade — was a gamble by Mr. Netanyahu that a steady flow of money would maintain peace in Gaza, the eventual launching point of the Oct. 7 attacks, and keep Hamas focused on governing, not fighting. The Qatari payments, while ostensibly a secret, have been widely known and discussed in the Israeli news media for years.

Mr. Netanyahu’s critics disparage them as part of a strategy of “buying quiet,” and the policy is in the middle of a ruthless reassessment following the attacks. Mr. Netanyahu has lashed back at that criticism, calling the suggestion that he tried to empower Hamas “ridiculous.” In interviews with more than two dozen current and former Israeli, American and Qatari officials, and officials from other Middle Eastern governments, The New York Times unearthed new details about the origins of the policy, the controversies that erupted inside the Israeli government and the lengths that Mr. Netanyahu went to in order to shield the Qataris from criticism and keep the money flowing.

The payments were part of a string of decisions by Israeli political leaders, military officers and intelligence officials — all based on the fundamentally flawed assessment that Hamas was neither interested in nor capable of a large-scale attack. The Times has previously reported on intelligence failures and other faulty assumptions that preceded the attacks. Even as the Israeli military obtained battle plans for a Hamas invasion and analysts observed significant terrorism exercises just over the border in Gaza, the payments continued. For years, Israeli intelligence officers even escorted a Qatari official into Gaza, where he doled out money from suitcases filled with millions of dollars.

snip

Mountainguy

(545 posts)
44. Do you read the things you copy and paste?
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 12:58 PM
Apr 21

Your saying that Israel proped up Hamas by allowing aid in and allowing Gazans to travel into Israel and work for higher wages.

So your point is that instead they should have denied aid and kept Gazans inside of Gaza, in q 20 year long seige to starve them out. That is what you think should have been done?

I guess you approve of the current war footing then. I think it's extreme to do that during a cease fire, but inguess your pretty hawkish on Gaza.

RandySF

(59,360 posts)
58. If my landlord gave you the means to kill me
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 08:50 PM
Apr 21

would that give you a free pass to commit murder? Hamas and Netanyahu both need to be dealt with.

RockRaven

(15,019 posts)
26. The embryo fetishist set heavily overlap with the bigotted shitweasel set
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 02:17 AM
Apr 21

so I don't see why anyone would be surprised at the lack of outrage... Their happiness at fewer Palestinians being born probably wipes out, more or less, their unhappiness at frozen cell clumps being destroyed.

And for those who aren't embryo fetishists, this is merely another instance in a huge pile of property destruction so from an outrage standpoint it doesn't cause a spike but rather a marginal move of the needle.

meadowlander

(4,406 posts)
29. I don't think you have to be an "embyro fetishist" to understand that it's not straightforward property destruction.
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 03:03 AM
Apr 21

I'm pro-choice and I don't believe in fetal personhood. But I'm also transgender and when I get gender affirming surgery I'm going to have to decide whether or not to freeze my eggs and once I do that's it. They then represent the entire possibility of my ever being able to have my own biological children. And that actually means something to me beyond just a few bits of biological matter in a test tube (i.e. property).
It's the difference between bombing a shoe factory and bombing the Vatican. They're both buildings but one of them has greater symbolic meaning which comes from being unique and irreplaceable.

AloeVera

(976 posts)
31. Hamas are hiding among the embryos.
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 07:46 AM
Apr 21

Things must be getting desperate.

I don't see any other "justification" for bombing a fertility clinic. Might there be any other reasons?

Mountainguy

(545 posts)
45. You think they wouldnt be?
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 01:06 PM
Apr 21

A building that likely had independent power capabilities. Would have been a clear place for them to use.

Do you think Hamas is worried about protecting frozen embryos when they are ok sacrificing their living children to fight Israel?

Wonder Why

(3,266 posts)
34. We don't even know if this was intentional or just another bomb, like so many, that land anywhere - that's why war
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 10:12 AM
Apr 21

is hell. Were there Hamas anti-air defenses on the roof? Did the Israelis purposely decide to hit an IVF facility to get rid of potentially future Gazans? Is it as bad as hitting a hospital intentionally or accidentally? The same? Is it as bad as massacring civilians by either side? Worse?

iemanja

(53,074 posts)
76. How about the thousands killed since?
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 11:33 PM
Apr 21

I understand this may seem heretical, but I actually believe each life has value, regardless of the religion of the deceased.

iemanja

(53,074 posts)
83. The deaths have been widely reported in the press, and there has been television coverage.
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 11:51 PM
Apr 21

Even if you choose to disbelieve the numbers released by the Health Ministry, you can see the devastation with your own eyes on the news coverage. I didn't cite the health ministry numbers, which are around 35,000. I gave a more general, much lower number, but you want to pretend that thousands haven't died in a many months long war. It's absurd to the point of being morally unconscionable.

How hard is it to recognize that Muslim civilian life has value just as Jewish civilians do?

iemanja

(53,074 posts)
79. Hamas is guilty of many things
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 11:36 PM
Apr 21

killing thousands of Israelis, but they did not kill the thousands dead in Gaza. That was the IDF.

iemanja

(53,074 posts)
86. I'm told here that their leadership is in Qatar
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 11:58 PM
Apr 21

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2024, 11:10 PM - Edit history (1)

yet Israel isn't bombing Qatar. Perhaps that's because the IDF's goal isn't to take out the Hamas leadership at all but rather to rid Palestine of all Muslims. They have floated plans to remove all Palestinians from the region. I once posted about 15 links to articles on that subject when someone questioned that point. Of course, they never acknowledged the evidence.

Leaving that aside, the Hamas leadership is relatively small, yet the numbers of Gazans killed are large---mostly civilians. The IDF knows most of the people they are killing are civilians, yet they continue to bomb. Their actions speak loudly.

TexasDem69

(1,850 posts)
81. Those dead
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 11:40 PM
Apr 21

Would be alive had Hamas’ animals not raped, kidnapped and murdered over 1,000 civilians. Those horrific crimes caused the current conflict and any resulting deaths. That’s the point you need to keep in mind.

iemanja

(53,074 posts)
84. I doubt that
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 11:54 PM
Apr 21

Do you know anything about the Israeli--Palestinian conflict before Oct 7, 2023? It didn't start then.
There have been many attacks on Gaza and the West bank previous to that date, many killings of Palestinians. That does not justify what Hamas did. There is no justification for their actions. But nor does it justify the IDF's behavior, as you are seeking to do.

DaBronx

(305 posts)
57. Were you awake in the days after 9/11?
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 08:48 PM
Apr 21

Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2024, 09:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Cause I was. And I can’t recall a single
Person saying we shouldn’t go ahead and bomb the shit out of those responsible.
October 7 was Israel’s 9/11. I guess most people have no idea what that must feel like.
I couldn’t give a rat’s backside about what terror is rained upon Hamas. If innocent people are killed, that’s the fault mostly of Hamas. Yes Netanyahu must go, and yes the war has been painfully tragic, but Hamas is the cause and I have no apologies for Israel defending itself.

claudette

(3,605 posts)
64. And that's
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 09:45 PM
Apr 21

not genocide? Even the unborn Palestinians are targets of terrorists. Shame on Israeli military

revmclaren

(2,533 posts)
85. I guess Israeli 'atrocities ' are getting harder and harder
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 11:55 PM
Apr 21

to find these days in the news. Not enough ''children' or 'babies ' poping up in key word searches on the usual websites and sources.

It boggles the mind that embryos are now suddenly the new weapon in the 'blame the Jews' arsenal in this important time of fighting for women's lives over unborn fetuses.

IMHO of course.

Response to David__77 (Original post)

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