I'm gonna go out on a BIG limb here re:the Middle East:

[PCIntern]

The Hamas attack and horror was designed to manifest the outrage of Israel and they absolutely welcomed the serious warfare waged against them and used the media and some easily-made-queasy folk to turn against Israel and the Jews.

They bided their time until this moment when they felt that they maximized global ill-will against Israel and that the forces were involved in Gaza and have launched an attack against civilian centers and air defenses most likely.

Now when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait we sent 400,000 troops to reestablish the sovereignty of that country. I expect that if Israel is truly threatened, there will be equivalent Hell to pay for the Iranians. I will add that it doesn’t matter one whit what any of us think or feel on this or any other message board. These decisions are made by people who have information and devices of which we know nothing.

The game has changed, and not for the better.

[Cha]

1. 🕯️🕊️🇮🇱💙 🇺🇸 sounds reasonable.

Thank You

[walkingman]

2. A thoughtful post....

These decisions are made by people who have information and devices of which we know nothing.

I agree it doesn't matter at all what "we" think. But the quote I posted seems to be the common thought process that most of us tend to accept. In many cases, not all, this is nothing more than rationalization for actions that we don't understand or agree with.

I think your analogy of Hamas' intent is correct and a possible escalation by Iran is more than likely the response that Israel is hoping for after their alleged attack on their consulate. I personally hope the US does not get sucked into the fray.

[PCIntern]

3. I don't believe for an instant that Israel hoped

To get involved with Iran. There were terrorists who had killed Israelis and thus were legitimate targets wherever they were.

[mdmc]

7. isreal reacted like a hurt child

just like we did after 911

now off to war!

[paleotn]

8. So we and they should have just let it slide?

Other than a time and place of our own choosing, I really don't understand that thinking.

[Ace Rothstein]

12. People that say that literally never have an alternative.

In reality they'd be inviting more attacks over and over which is why nobody pays attention to them.

[Eko]

19. Israel did act like a hurt child.

And I have an alternative but it involves us putting some skin in the game.

[Hekate]

24. Riiiiiight

[Eko]

25. How can I not have an alternative?

There are literally millions of alternatives.

[mdmc]

34. kick

r

[mdmc]

33. here are the alternatives to 9-11

Instead of invading Iraq and Afghanistan
secure our ports, borders, airports and infrastructure
utilize CIA FBI and ally security to police terror cells around the world
cobble together a new new world order of security and non violence
target osama bin ladin and his cell in an effective way.

Hindsight being 20-20, I'm surprised people can't see this as a better alternative
Dennis Kucinich was saying it from the get go

[paleotn]

44. oh, there are lots of alternatives.

But when dealing with people who don't play by civilized rules, many of those alternatives, particularly "holding hands and singing kumbaya", are less than effective in deterring future aggression. I'm sure ISIS and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi would have been so open to negotiations instead of laser guided bombs.....not. To think otherwise is grossly naive of how the real world works.

[mdmc]

37. not at all

What I am saying was the iraq war and the invasion of gaza were extreme responses, not calculated responses

[paleotn]

45. In that we agree.

We actually could have bought Osama Ben Laden relatively cheaply compared to the 10 year quagmire. The Taliban aren't fools. They had a price. But I guess W and his minions thought honor demanded a kinetic response. Iraq was neo-con idiocy that had nothing at all to do with 9-11.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

54. "Extreme responses"

Yes. All over this thread, and unfortunately, with "leaders" who wield hate and weapons. SMH

[PCIntern]

10. Oh really....

People’s private parts were carved from them WHILE THEY WERE STILL ALIVE.

But you know…it’s only Jews, right?

Wake up.

[Sky Jewels]

13. And then Israel slaughtered and starved tens of thousands of Gazans.

But you know…it’s only Muslims, right?

[PCIntern]

14. Their leading party Hamas

Stated that they were going to eradicate the Jews. Perhaps it’s just a bit ironic that that lunatic Bibi taught them the meaning of the word “eradicate” in a small way. Hurts, doesn’t it? We hurt too. We hurt when our people’s genitalia is cut from their living, conscious bodies. We hurt when babies are cut out of living women’s uteri.

[Sky Jewels]

15. No kidding!

Isrealis and Gazans are equally human. Innocent Gazans who are maimed, starved, shot and bombed deserve sympathy, just like innocent Israeli victims of Hamas do. Why does it have to be so one-sided?

Israel’s response has been to slaughter literally tens of thousands and to wipe out Gaza and make it virtually uninhabitable. Do you really think that’s the only way Netanyahu could have responded to 10/7?

The response of many here to all the Gaza carnage is to shrug, because apparently to these DUers only Israelis are worthy of having their lives deemed to be of value.

[PCIntern]

16. No

But not for one minute are Jews gonna sit back and wait for approval from people who sit safely in their homes with their families. Hamas hides among the civilians for exactly the reason that you and people like you, see red when those behind whom they’re hiding, die. How about you call vociferously for the release of surviving hostages, if any, and the return of the remains of the dead. No? The war would have stopped almost immediately but of course, Hamas wanted war so many could aim pejoratives at Israel and undermine them. It worked to a degree, but now, it’s gonna fade into the deep background.

[Sky Jewels]

18. Of course the hostages should be released.

But Netanyahu started bombing Gaza immediately, which was the exact wrong thing to do if he was truly interested in gaining their release. And if you think that Israel’s response to the hostage taking was appropriate, well … wow. So much for holding onto any sense of humanity.

Netanyahu, a far-right criminal who is corrupt to his core, is as much of a terrorist as Hamas and also as much as Dubya, Cheney and the neocons who needlessly slaughtered countless innocent Iraqis. The people who died on 10/7 paid the price for Israel’s continued enabling of Bibi, just like the innocent Gazans are paying the price for Hamas enablement. BTW, speaking of enablement, let’s not forget that Netanyahu long propped up Hamas.

The world sees the injustice of Israel’s response, just as it saw the injustice of the Bush administration’s response following 9-11.

[PCIntern]

20. "Of course"???

No… not “of course”. Of course my car should start in the morning. Of course I should get my paycheck on Friday.

The hostages were to be released or people WHO ARE PROTECTING YOU would be annihilated in return. Howzzat? Hamas tortured and mutilated living, feeling people and “of course”?

If it happened to your child you wouldn’t be so analytical I bet. Or perhaps you would. I dunno.


Tell you one thing. I bet some of the remaining Hamas terrorists -because they sure aren’t freedom fighters - may think twice or three times.

You know what the US Army did at the concentration camps? They took a bunch of the guards and executed them by hanging on the spot. That’s war and retribution.

[AloeVera]

29. Don't.

No babies were cut from anywhere. Zaka lied.

The continuation of this atrocity propaganda literally makes me sick.

It has been used to justify the murder of thousands of babies in Gaza.

[PCIntern]

32. BS

There were photos which could not be released. You say it’s a lie because if it isn’t, you and yours have no moral standing publicly. Also, do you deny that people were genitally mutilated while alive on 10/7? Do you? Was it simply some Hamas tourist group who has been misunderstood?

[AloeVera]

47. On the contrary.

A ZAKA volunteer's story about a baby having been cut from a pregnant woman's womb was likewise found to be made up; in total only two babies are actually known to have died on October 7: one was struck by a bullet, the other was an injured Bedouin woman's baby that died in hospital shortly after birth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war

Pramilla Patten, the UN Special Envoy, in her report said this claim was unfounded.

Based on the amount of dis/misinformation, I can't answer your questions. The UN envoy said discernible patterns of genital mutilation could not be verified and calls for a full, independent investigation by the UN bodies with vested investigative authority. So far, Israel has not agreed to that.

[mdmc]

35. Hammas was willing to eradicate the Palistinan people if it brought the world against Isreal

that was the goal of oct.7

[mdmc]

38. good morning

PCIntern, hello and good morning
Oct.7th invited the Isreali government to unite the world against violence and terrorism.

What I am suggesting is that the Iraq war and the invasion of gaza were not the best retaliatory options

[PCIntern]

46. Good morning...

Agreed about Iraq, etc.

Yes. We could unite as a world, send a strongly worded letter to Hamas, have the UN possibly issue a strong condemnation against terrorism but allow that some see Hamas as freedom fighters, and it would happen again, and the world woukd shrug its shoulders and say: what can you do?

It’s like the NRA position after every school shooting. “This is not the time.” 🙄

Israel has a long and persistent memory concerning these atrocities.

[Hekate]

17. What do you think the US gov't SHOULD have done after 9-11? Please be explicit.

Were you awake to watch the Towers come down in New York City? Did any of your friends or friends of friends work in NYC or DC?

Let me state at the outset that I had profound issues with BushCheney’s ultimate response, and vehemently opposed them as best I could.

That said, my friends who worked in DC felt their workplaces shake profoundly from the attack on the Pentagon. My cousin’s husband was not in the Pentagon that day (iirc) but was immediately called back to assist. Both my of Massachusetts sister’s school age children had classmates who lost their grandmas in the flights out of Boston.

We all saw the photos of the buildings collapsing. We saw only a few photos of the people leaping from the towers in their terror — but witnesses said the people leapt and fell for 45 minutes, until the buildings themselves fell. And that the sound of them was continuous — a heavy thudding splat as they hit the sidewalks below.

Please tell me what we SHOULD have done. Don’t give me some insulting poppycock that we reacted like a hurt child (your own words) to this profound murder and destruction.

[Eko]

21. 1. Not attack Iraq.

2. Not wage a war in Afghanistan, where no one ever has won.
3. Track down and kill the terrorists.
That is what we should have done if we had acted like adults.
I was there. I remember the "mailmen" should report on civilians, the anti-Arab racism rampart through our country. The fake WMD"s. The "Bomb them all to hell" rednecks. I remember it.

[Hekate]

22. I was explicit that I opposed BushCheney's response. But to say we reacted like "a hurt child" is asinine

The attackers were Saudis.
Bin Ladin holed up in Tora Bora, and US troops were pulled out. wtf
Yeah, hunt down the terrorists.
But I’d really like to hear from the “hurt child” person. They and anyone else who adopts that term should explain that.

[Eko]

23. I just adopted it and I explained it.

[mdmc]

41. Good morning Hekate

I'm sorry for the use of the term "hurt child". Perhaps "wounded dog" may have implied a better sense of what I was trying to convey

I think perhaps we can both agree that the Iraq war was an inadequate response to 9-11-01.
I am suggesting that the Iraq war made us less safe and was an improper response to 9-11-01.

You have now heard from me regarding my post. Can we talk about it as Democrats that, presumably, would prefer not to see a huge war in the Middle East?

[Hekate]

49. I came back to find your post, and to apologize for overreacting. Yeah, I'll be happy with "dog"...

BushCheney made a complete hash of the unjustified invasion of Iraq, but the propaganda voluntarily launched by the tv and cable businesses was brilliant. In fact it was so brilliant it gave several elderly Europeans of my acquaintance rather severe flashbacks to the 1930s.

I would very much like to not ever have to live through that again.

[mdmc]

50. thanks for checking back in

All the best,
mdmc

[mdmc]

39. Good morning Eko

I agree with you.

There is peace through strength

And many strong options to war

[lees1975]

30. Bush used the pent-up frustration over 9-11 to go after Iraq, not Al Qaida.

Iraq was not responsible for 9-11 Al Qaida was, and Bin Laden first was hiding in Afghanistan, then in Pakistan, where Obama finally brought him to justice.

The invasion and occupation of Afghanistan was unnecessary. Trump sold out and betrayed the democratically elected government there, though it wasn't worth anything by then, anyway. All of that was a futile, unnecessary, expensive mess because of an incompetent boob in the White House who didn't have a clue about what to do, but who knew that American bias and hatred of anything Muslim gave him plenty of potential targets to vent the anger.

It's pretty much the same thing here. How in the world did Hamas get through the kind of security Israel has had for more than half a century now, without any intelligence or warning? That almost looks like a set up, and there's still not been an accounting for that.

If you want to know what motivates Hamas, or Hezbollah, take a look at the lives lived by Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

When is this hatred going to stop? Human reason and intellect are not capable, obviously, of resolving the problem, nor does it seem that either democratically elected politicians, or autocrats, can resolve this.

[mdmc]

42. thanks for your input lee1975

I am interested in hearing more from you on how to de-escalate the middle east conflict.

[mdmc]

36. good morning

I replied above to the alternative to the Iraq war.

9-11-01 was a terrorist attack
the Iraq war was a mistake IMHO
we could have reacted in a more effective manner
Please read my post above for details
thanks in advance for your consideration

[WheelWalker]

4. Truth. There are those who want conflict... even war.

Damn them. Damn them all to hell.

[paleotn]

9. This!

[mdmc]

43. r

[BannonsLiver]

48. Yes, let's kick the stupid so it is more visible.

100 percent agree.

[mdmc]

5. hammas had a mission

and mission accomplished

[Tetrachloride]

6. i disagree with the main point in the original post.

i believe its a secondary goal, not a primary goal

[calimary]

11. Scary times now.

"We are turning a new corner here" as the CNN anchor (I think Alex Marquand) just said.

[TomDaisy]

26. what about the missiles hitting Ukraine

[JustAnotherGen]

31. My eyes are on Ukraine

And WaPo reported 2 days ago that the Russians are advancing.

I can say I hate the Russians - and no one blinks an eye at DU.

My eyes are also focused on the genocide in Sudan.


But lets you and me return to the regularly scheduled programming by Russia of the Middle East

Let'

[TomDaisy]

27. "in retaliation for last week's deadly Israeli strike on an Iranian embassy complex"

Iran has launched a wave of strikes toward Israel in retaliation for last week's deadly Israeli strike on an Iranian embassy complex in Syria, in an unprecedented move by Tehran that could further widen the ongoing conflict in the Middle East.


How does this factor in to your theory.

[PCIntern]

28. The residents of the compound

Had been sending wave after wave of missiles into Israel. I guess that’s ok with Americans because they’re fine.

We went in and killed Bin Laden in another country. That was A OK.

[RandomNumbers]

40. Is it too much CT to consider that this conflagration, at THIS time, plays RIGHT into the hands

of Putin and Trump?

Not saying there's a connection ... just that I would not be shocked if it were eventually identified by trustworthy sources.

[Voltaire2]

51. " easily-made-queasy folks"

Yeah I’m queasy about genocide. Wtf.

[Chakaconcarne]

52. So Hamas aka the Palestinian people, directed Bibi to missile attack the Iranian consulate?

[PCIntern]

53. I for one have no problem killing terrorists

Wherever they’re hiding, whether it be in an embassy, where they are clearly being protected by diplomatic personnel, or in a bunker somewhere. Hamas hand Hezbollah have not a moment’s hesitation in murdering civilians or blowing up buses, so the same goes for them in retribution.

[Voltaire2]

55. Continuing the 6 months long explanation that Israel has no agency and is instead directed by Hamas.

It is a very peculiar explanation.