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H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 02:18 PM Mar 30

#Nine Passengers

"We are faced with evil. I feel rather like Augustine did before becoming a Christian when he said, ' I tried to find the source of evil and I got nowhere. But it is also true that I and a few others knew what must be done if not to reduce evil at least not to add to it.' Perhaps we cannot prevent this world from being a world in which children are tortured. But we can reduce the number of tortured children. And if you believers don't help us, who else in the world can help us with this?" -- Albert Camus


I saw some recent news about Ruby Franke. She previously had a podcase called "8 Passengers" about families and parenting. I had never heard of her until last August 30, when she was arrested along with her therapist, Jodi Hildebrant. They were charged with torturing Franke's children.

Both spent several months in jail, before being convicted and sent to prison. In general, somen's prisons do not tend to be as violent and dangerous as men's prisons. However, even moreso than Ruby and her therapist coming from a very different social class than most other inmates, the fact they were convicted for torturing children puts them at the highest risk for being attacked. If not, they will likely be shunned by other prisoners. For crimes against children are easily recognized as the lowest of the low.

Because it was Good Friday, at least when I started reading Camus, I had started with reading from "A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings of Martin Luther King, Jr." (Edited by James Washington; Harper & Row;1986). The 676 pages include speeches as well as his writings. I read two of his presentations: his eulogy for four children, and his most important speech opposing the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam war.

The first, of course, came after the KKK bombed the 16th Street Church in Birmingham, killing four little girls on September 15, 1963. The second was perhaps his greatest speech, "A Time to Breal Silence (Beyond Vietnam)" at the Riverside Church on April 4, 1967. In that war, like all others, children were wounded and killed by American bombs.

Those were the things I pondered while growing up. What would make a group of men bomb a church? Did our military draft young men to fight in war, because they hadn't matured beyond their high school days when they did whatever the coach asked? At what point does a sense of personal responsibility for one's actions come into play? Does it in everyone? How many steps away from the action does a person say no to torturing children" If your tax dollars are funding the torture and murder of children?

My generation was met with the contempt and violence of much of older generation when we said no to that ugly war, racism, and sexism. One of the things I remember is found in "The Eloquence of Protest: Voices of the 70s" (edited by Harrison Salsbury; Houghton Mifflin; 1972). It is a letter from a father, Dr. Paul williamson, of Mississippi, to his son, a college student. He wrote that if he protested the war, he deserved to be killed, just like the "revolutionaries" at Kent State.

Now, I was a young person at this time. So I couldn't figure out bombing churches or anywhere else, especially if there were children who would be killed or injured. Still can't. Or parents and grandparents who became furious and insulting of young people proresting such things. Even saying your kid deserves death for exercising his Amendment 1 rights, saying that threatened the country.

Basketball legend and philosopher Bill Russell said something when I was young, that I hope to never forget: "Pick your enemies carefully, because they are who you risk becoming the most like." Now I'm a grandfather, and find myself wishing more of my generation remembered what Mr. Russell said. I hear many my age complain about political-social rallies of young people, as if exercising Amendment 1 is a bad thing. Ignoring what Johnny Cash called "the lonely voice of youth," while expecting them to listen to us in a one-sided conversation.

58 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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#Nine Passengers (Original Post) H2O Man Mar 30 OP
Nothing wrong with political-social rallies. shrike3 Mar 30 #1
I agree. H2O Man Mar 30 #3
What do current protestors hope to accomplish? shrike3 Mar 30 #5
You said that H2O Man Mar 30 #6
It was a serious question whether you consider it so or not. How will this protesting help Gazans? shrike3 Mar 30 #7
In the 60s and 70s we shouted "Hey! Hey! LBJ!! How many kids did you kill today?" Ping Tung Mar 30 #10
We had direct involvement in Vietnam. We do not have that in Gaza. shrike3 Mar 30 #44
That's curious. H2O Man Mar 30 #11
Pretty easy to find Genocide Joe chnats shrike3 Mar 30 #37
I don't search H2O Man Mar 30 #38
You wrote a lot of words that went round and round. You did not answer my question. shrike3 Mar 30 #42
Oh, I had H2O Man Mar 31 #46
Lots more words that go round and round. You can't or won't answer the question, so I won't ask again. shrike3 Mar 31 #47
That's fine. H2O Man Mar 31 #48
This has turned into a waste of time. Putting you on ignore. So long. shrike3 Mar 31 #52
Do you promise? H2O Man Mar 31 #53
The US can do a lot to stop the war if our leaders would act. Lonestarblue Mar 30 #16
Right. H2O Man Mar 30 #31
Okay, those are valid points. Somewhat practical, and I am looking for practical solutions. shrike3 Mar 30 #41
K&R spanone Mar 30 #2
Thanks! H2O Man Mar 30 #4
KnR Hekate Mar 30 #8
Thank you! H2O Man Mar 30 #12
I don't know the answers Saoirse9 Mar 30 #9
Thanks! H2O Man Mar 30 #14
You bring up some very poignant memories from my 1960's journey Bundbuster Mar 30 #13
Thanks! H2O Man Mar 30 #22
Food for thought. SergeStorms Mar 30 #15
Thanks! H2O Man Mar 30 #23
A very thoughtful OP malaise Mar 30 #17
Thank you. H2O Man Mar 30 #24
Earlier today I was reminding my brother malaise Mar 30 #25
Nice! H2O Man Mar 30 #32
You made me laugh malaise Mar 30 #36
On the other hand, H2O Man Mar 31 #55
Some seriously shady folks man malaise Mar 31 #56
I remember that there was more than one cretin who argued that the Kent State protesters deserved what they got. malthaussen Mar 30 #18
Very good! H2O Man Mar 30 #27
Since two of the kids killed at Kent State were just passing by... malthaussen Mar 30 #29
Exactly! H2O Man Mar 30 #33
This is a powerful bit of writing. Thank you. Shipwack Mar 30 #19
I am honored H2O Man Mar 30 #28
Well said. I went to college in the 60s/70s and felt so much confusion about the war erronis Mar 30 #20
Thanks! H2O Man Mar 30 #34
Thanks! H2O Man Mar 30 #35
I'm pondering Bill Russell's "Pick your enemies carefully, because they are who you risk becoming the most like." Martin Eden Mar 30 #21
Right. H2O Man Mar 30 #39
Right. H2O Man Mar 30 #40
If 6 Was 9 Kid Berwyn Mar 30 #26
I had trouble H2O Man Mar 30 #43
I agree 100%. Eko Mar 30 #30
I had to H2O Man Mar 30 #45
Big Dan Teague was very loquacious. Eko Mar 31 #49
Now I see ...... H2O Man Mar 31 #50
Ha ha ha ha Eko Mar 31 #57
My father H2O Man Mar 31 #58
"as if exercising Amendment 1 is a bad thing" Silent3 Mar 31 #51
Well said! H2O Man Mar 31 #54

shrike3

(3,783 posts)
1. Nothing wrong with political-social rallies.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 02:29 PM
Mar 30

But if it's true that foreign powers are funding at least some of these groups and rallies, we need to tread lightly.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
3. I agree.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 02:39 PM
Mar 30

I remember that the older generation -- including President Johnson -- were convinced that the rallies of young people were being master-minded and funded by the Societ Union. When someone like J. Edgar Hoover made such a claim, a heck of a lot of older people believed it was true.

I prefer politics in this country to not have any direct foreign influence. Perhaps the most obvious example was Russian military intelligence in the 2016 presidential campaign.

shrike3

(3,783 posts)
5. What do current protestors hope to accomplish?
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 02:53 PM
Mar 30

Serious question. If they want the U.S. to withdraw aid to Israel, that's within the realm of possibility. But what then? Netanyahu will continue with or without us. (Maybe I'm wrong. I'd love to be wrong.) So Israel becomes a pariah nation, Netanyahu doesn't care, other countries in the region take him on -- what happens then? Think any of them are going to care what happens to Palestinians? I'll bet the Saudis have already had talks with Jared about that "waterfront property" in Gaza. No matter what we do, those poor folks are going to be screwed. I'm so sorry about that. But short of waving a magic wand, I don't know what we as Americans do.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
6. You said that
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 03:01 PM
Mar 30

you are "sorry," and I'll start with that. I'm sorry, but I don't consider that to be a serious question, because it exposes a lack of listening to what the protestors have been saying. I'm not referencing the media coverage, for their goal is to show the most extreme and obnoxious individuals at any event. This has long included a focus upon the efforts of agent provocateurs, though main stream media never identifies them as such.

It's best to listen to what one or more of the young people are actually saying.

shrike3

(3,783 posts)
7. It was a serious question whether you consider it so or not. How will this protesting help Gazans?
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 03:05 PM
Mar 30

No one's told me yet; maybe you can. The tragedy will go on with or without us. Do they just not want our money involved? Is that it?

What they want is one thing. What's in our power to change is another. Do they understand what the U.S. government can and cannot do? What Americans themselves can or cannot do?

I hear a lot of "Genocide Joe has to go." How will that help Gazans? His successor would be even worse. If you elect not to answer my serious question, maybe someone else will. I'm hoping.

Ping Tung

(672 posts)
10. In the 60s and 70s we shouted "Hey! Hey! LBJ!! How many kids did you kill today?"
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 03:46 PM
Mar 30

Did it help the Vietnamese kids being murdered? I don't know. But, it did awaken some people to the facts about the reality of war.

No cause justifies the deaths of innocent people. Albert Camus

shrike3

(3,783 posts)
44. We had direct involvement in Vietnam. We do not have that in Gaza.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:16 PM
Mar 30

We cannot bring soldiers home. We cannot end the conflict ourselves. That is up to Israel and Hamas. We can pile on the pressure, we can put sanctions, but we cannot force a ceasefire however much we might like to.

Joe Biden is not causing genocide, not matter what world you live in.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
11. That's curious.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 04:10 PM
Mar 30

I've yet to hear the quote that you attribute to him, though I have no doubt that it has been used. For the very nature of political protest rallies always invludes the most extreme saying such nonsense.

I did not intend my comment to be snarky or insulting. I respect you as a good forum member. But some things seem obvious to me ...... for example, why did the Founding Fathers include citizens' right to gather publicly to protest against those government policies they disagree with with? And why is it in Amendment 1 in the Bill of Rights, indicating they recognized it was so important?

You appear to be focused exclusively on Gaza. I suspect this may be due to your getting your primary information from the media.This is why I recommend talking with politically active young people. In doing so, I recommend not viewing politics only as a graph on a flat surface, but rather, as a solid sphere graph -- for this allows us a more accurate view than does limiting everything to Democrat versus republican, which was the most common view in my youth.

It's interesting to consider what Sean Wilentz wrote in his introduction to his classic "The Rise of American Democracy" (2005). This country was, for some time, a republic, and definitely not a democracy. He notes that a republic translates to "res publica" ..... a "public thing" ..... in this case to be run by rich white men, who believed themselves most capable of doing so. Democracy comes from "demos krateo," or "rule of the people," which the rich white men considered dangerous. By Lincoln's time, of course, there were a handful of political parties, including some advocating for democracy.

Now, we are at a very different point. Obviously, the republican party is run by the most capable liars and thieves, backed by the ignorant willing to violently overthrow the government. The Democratic Party has more members, thank goodness. But the growth of independent voters has certainly changed the balance. And that is extremely unlikely to change in the near future, when we consider the current registration trends among young voters.

What do the young people want? We know what young republicans want, which is distinct from what they would reap if successful. So let's skip them. The majority of the political rallies I am aware of on the East Coast involve young Democrats and independents. At this time, obviously the torture of children in Gaza is central to the rallies, yet they involve voters who have a variety of things they are advocating for. Most are saying the same general thing that Senator Chuck Schumer recently said about events in Gaza.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
38. I don't search
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:02 PM
Mar 30

for such nonsense.

O did answer your question. You might not like my answer. Might not agree with it. But I can't be any clearer that if you are sincere about wondering "what do they want?" yo should listen to them.

shrike3

(3,783 posts)
42. You wrote a lot of words that went round and round. You did not answer my question.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:13 PM
Mar 30

And you said you were unaware of anyone making such chants. I just showed them to you. If protestors really do want Joe to go, I'm afraid they're in for a nasty surprise if that happens.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
46. Oh, I had
Sun Mar 31, 2024, 12:01 AM
Mar 31

answered you in my first response. I said you would need to listen to the young people to know what they want. Even though I'm not a mother robin, tasked with pre-digesting worms for nestlings, I also have said listen to them -- as in conversation -- not searching the internet for clips that will offend you.

Obviously, things will be worse if President Biden does not win in November. Yet young people attending rallies will have zero to do with the outcome of the election. Lumping everyone at such a rally as having uniform thinking is, of course, an example of the limitations of concrete thinking. For while there are some who will never vote for Biden, found in the videos you favor. But there are more who are simply expressing their strong disagreement with US policy per supplying the weapons that torture children in Gaza. Some are doing the same thing that Senator Schumer recently did, in advocating for changes. Like Schumer, they will still vote for President Biden

I can say that with zero chance of being wrong. Why? Because I talk with them -- which includes listening.

There is a third group, those who are undecided or who might change their minds. It is the job of grass roots Democrats to talk with them -- including listening -- between now and November. But clearly one would have had to listened respectfully to them to accomplish that. For the worst thing would be to have others talk down to them, accusing them of being a monolithic group defined by the jackasses in those clips you sent. For they can only offend and beat back the chances of them listening to the more insightful Democrats.

shrike3

(3,783 posts)
47. Lots more words that go round and round. You can't or won't answer the question, so I won't ask again.
Sun Mar 31, 2024, 12:05 AM
Mar 31

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
48. That's fine.
Sun Mar 31, 2024, 12:21 AM
Mar 31

It may be easier for you to opt not to understand what they are saying that way. And that will help you "tread lightly" jusy in case that young people are incapable of thinking for themselves, and are instead being led astray by shadowy figures funded by dark forces. I mean, how else could it be explained? Maybe Senator Schumer has been brainwashed by those same bad guys!

Lonestarblue

(10,065 posts)
16. The US can do a lot to stop the war if our leaders would act.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 04:33 PM
Mar 30

I understand that there is a risk of alienating Jewish voters here, but Netanyahu is in the wrong and the more protests we have the more his viciousness toward Palestinians stays in the news. The US can impose severe economic sanctions on Israel, not just on a few rabid settlers. The US can refuse to provide aid of any type, but especially military aid. The US can pull together an international commission to begin laying out a state for Palestinians, with or without Israeli cooperation. Apartheid did not end in South Africa without protests, boycotts, and pressure from other countries.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
31. Right.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 07:38 PM
Mar 30

I remember long, long ago, being part of the NYS SSA that met with leaders, to demand they divest in South Africa. Those officials were not purposely rude, but I found their "aren't the cute" attitude annoying. I was proud to help build the foundation that eventually resulted in divesting.

shrike3

(3,783 posts)
41. Okay, those are valid points. Somewhat practical, and I am looking for practical solutions.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:11 PM
Mar 30

Will they work, though? I'm not so sure. Eighty-five percent of Israel's military budget does not come from us. Sixty-two percent of Israelis support Netanyahu's plan. Like it or not, it's their country. What are we going to do? Our track record when it comes intervening to other country's affairs is not exactly stellar. That aside, I don't see how any action we can take is going to help the Palestinian people, at least when it comes to the short-term. Lots and lots of suffering. Apartheid lasted 43 years. The conflict in the Mideast has of course gone on much longer.

If the goal of these protests is to end the suffering of the Palestinian people, I'm afraid that is not realistic. And if it undermines Biden enough so he is not re-elected, it will actually seal their fate. We all know Jared's plans for Gaza. No way he's not serious.

Saoirse9

(3,681 posts)
9. I don't know the answers
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 03:40 PM
Mar 30

But I share your grief at the evil that seems to go on unimpeeded in this country and Israel. Ruby Franke will be punished but so many others will not.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
14. Thanks!
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 04:18 PM
Mar 30

I was writing about children not limited to Gaza. There is gross violence well beyond there and Ukraine. It wasn't that long ago, for example, that a previous administration decided to lock children in cages. And we remember that Gandhi said that poverty is the worst form of violence.

Bundbuster

(3,193 posts)
13. You bring up some very poignant memories from my 1960's journey
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 04:13 PM
Mar 30

- The 1963 16th Street Church bombing and slaughter of four little girls caused me to totally confront the heinous nature of American racial hatred and examine in detail its pervasive, oppressive past.

- MLK's opposition to the Vietnam War (along with Ali's) caused my own draft-age self to more deeply examine the nature of American imperialism, as well as its use of minorities as sacrificial cannon fodder.

- Having watched Mr. Bill Russell lead his team to 11 world championships in 13 seasons, but more importantly show me what it means to be a meaningful, dignified man in the face of ignorance & hate, I made sure to read every word that he ever wrote. And then read them again.

Those were certainly some times, with young people leading the way despite the obstructive efforts of their atavistic elders.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.



H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
22. Thanks!
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 05:35 PM
Mar 30

I had read your comment, and was about to respond when a close friend stopped in. He also grew up in those same times.

When the issue of King and Ali comes up, I think about how the Champ got great advice at the time of the draft bit from Martin. And how the FBI recorded their telephone conversations. And how Bill Russell and other top black athletes met with Ali in June of 1967, and endorsed his decision to refuse to be drafted.

So those things are all part of my life. Yet, I understand that when I say to a young adult something like, "Well, you really need to understand Watergate .....," they tend to react how I would have if an old man had told me, "Listen, you need to understand what happened in 1924."

SergeStorms

(19,204 posts)
15. Food for thought.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 04:21 PM
Mar 30

Very well written and, as I said, food for thought. Feeding the brain is a most rewarding pursuit.
Thanks for the thought, H2O Man.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
24. Thank you.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 05:38 PM
Mar 30

This is largely an essay that resulted from the meeting an old school mate in the grocery store that I mentioned to you. Throughout the day, we communicated on the internet. She was focused on how bad the world is for children these days, including in out home town.

malaise

(269,157 posts)
25. Earlier today I was reminding my brother
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 05:59 PM
Mar 30

That mom did not allow dad to force him into dad’s profession.
The kids need guidance not orders. They are pretty smart.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
32. Nice!
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 07:42 PM
Mar 30

It's funny -- your post reminded me of many years ago, my father advocating that my brothers get into the same business that our great grandfather did well in when he moved here in the 1800s. Luckily, our mother got Dad's brothers in law enforcement to explain to him that this line of business had been taken over by organized crime. And that they took action to keep in full control of it, certainly not allowing competition!

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
55. On the other hand,
Sun Mar 31, 2024, 04:24 PM
Mar 31

while both of our parents sought to discourage my brothers & I from boxing, our mother did so because she considered it brutal, while our father thought the mob owned the sport. When a former world champion offered my oldest brother an exclusive, ten year contract, my brothers & I were excited. It was sight unseen, as the guy had never watched my brother fight. Dad and his brother met with the guy, and came back saying no way, the guy is a mobster. (My brother was too young to signa contract.)

We thought our father a stick in the mud, and our uncle a red neck. That uncle even warned us about a promoter we often fought for. My middle brother and I saw him ringside at MSG at Ali vs Frazier 2. He always treated us well. A few years later, our uncle awarded the guy a vacation in federal prison for mob activities.

Decades later, someone I trusted 100%, who had been a union leader, told me that when he had talked to that promter/ construction company owner, the guy said he wanted my brother for two reasons: first, he was a vicious fighter who could beat up union activists, and second, so he would have my uncle's "balls in his hand."

malthaussen

(17,216 posts)
18. I remember that there was more than one cretin who argued that the Kent State protesters deserved what they got.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 04:54 PM
Mar 30

You know, we really have a problem with proportion in the US. Even if the KS protesters were throwing baggies of shit and rocks at the National Guard, I don't think that would be a capital offense in a civilized country.

Similarly, the first thing that happens when the police execute another Black man is to enumerate all the alleged "crimes" of the victim, as though selling cigarettes illegally or ripping off some Twinkies is an offense worthy of death. Dunno about you, but if I had to live up to the apparent expectations of the "they got what they deserved" crowd, I wouldn't have made it to puberty.

-- Mal

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
27. Very good!
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 06:54 PM
Mar 30

Looking at that doctor's letter to his son, it stands out that he mentioned one of the girls murdered "could have been a good person," but instead choose to be a "revolutionary." But not a word about Nixon's "expanding" the war into Cambodia. One was exercising the Constitution's Bill of Rights. The other was a violation of law.

malthaussen

(17,216 posts)
29. Since two of the kids killed at Kent State were just passing by...
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 07:04 PM
Mar 30

... he's full of shit by his own "logic."

-- Mal

Shipwack

(2,171 posts)
19. This is a powerful bit of writing. Thank you.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 04:57 PM
Mar 30

It solidified various swirling thoughts in my head.

I’ve heard of Camus before. I’m going to actively seek out his works now.

If you have no objection, I’d like to post this on Facebook. Yes, I could just go ahead and do it anyway, but I like to ask…

erronis

(15,328 posts)
20. Well said. I went to college in the 60s/70s and felt so much confusion about the war
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 05:00 PM
Mar 30

University of Kansas, 1966---

I was immature at 18-19 and easily swayed by arguments on many sides of many issues. But I do remember, 60 years later, how implacable and obstinate the pro-war advocates were. Their moral inflexibility was a sign that they were not thinking about the issues, just spouting pre-written talking points. Vern Miller (the state AG), Bob Dole (a Senator).

We had at least two students killed by National Guard during a protest. Mt. Oread (the KU campus) was/is a blue island in a sea of red, still.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
34. Thanks!
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 07:50 PM
Mar 30

When I was 18 - 19, I knew everything. You didn't even have to ask me. In fact, I'd tell people exactly that ..... even on topics I knew nothing about! (grin) Yet, I did know right from wrong. And didn't understand those who thought the social wrongs were no big deal, because they were not directly involved.

I've never been opposed to paying taxes. But I want a say in how they are spent.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
35. Thanks!
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 07:50 PM
Mar 30

When I was 18 - 19, I knew everything. You didn't even have to ask me. In fact, I'd tell people exactly that ..... even on topics I knew nothing about! (grin) Yet, I did know right from wrong. And didn't understand those who thought the social wrongs were no big deal, because they were not directly involved.

I've never been opposed to paying taxes. But I want a say in how they are spent.

Martin Eden

(12,875 posts)
21. I'm pondering Bill Russell's "Pick your enemies carefully, because they are who you risk becoming the most like."
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 05:13 PM
Mar 30

My first reaction was there is no way any of us can become like Trump, for he is an abominable creature and certainly an enemy we must oppose with every fiber of our being.

Then the wisdom of Mr. Russell began to sink in. Though we may sometimes have to fight fire with fire, the flames of hate can consume us all. The devil's playground is fraught with risk.

RISK being the operative word. We must always stay centered, remembering who we are and what we fight for. Not all means are justified, for the ends may be pyrrhic.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
39. Right.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:08 PM
Mar 30

I find the defendant to be surprisingly similar to Charles Manson, who was among the most toxic people of the late 1960s ...... though Charlie had more respect for the court system. But I don't think they are what Mr. Russell was speaking of. You nail it in your last paragraph. It's the risk of becoming intolerant, cold hearted, and hateful. For as others have said, these contaminate the vessel that contains them.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
40. Right.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:08 PM
Mar 30

I find the defendant to be surprisingly similar to Charles Manson, who was among the most toxic people of the late 1960s ...... though Charlie had more respect for the court system. But I don't think they are what Mr. Russell was speaking of. You nail it in your last paragraph. It's the risk of becoming intolerant, cold hearted, and hateful. For as others have said, these contaminate the vessel that contains them.

Kid Berwyn

(14,954 posts)
26. If 6 Was 9
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 06:08 PM
Mar 30


Yeah, sing the song, Bro'

If the sun refuse to shine,
I don't mind, I don't mind,
If the mountains fell in the sea,
let it be, it ain't me.
Alright, 'cause I got my own world to live through,
And I ain't gonna copy you.

Now if 6 turned out to be 9,
I don't mind, I don't mind,
Alright, if all the hippies cut off all their hair,
I don't care, I don't care.
Dig, 'cause I got my own world to live through,
And I ain't gonna copy you.

White collared conservative flashing down the street,
Pointing their plastic finger at me.
They're hoping soon my kind will drop and die,
But I'm gonna wave my freak flag high, high.
Wave on, wave on.

Fall mountains, just don't fall on me.
Right on Mr. Business man, you can't dress like me.
Dreams, strife. Don't nobody know what I'm talkin' about.
I got my own life to live.
I'm the one that's got to die when it's time for me to die.
So let me live my life the way I want to.
Sing on Brother, play on drummer.



The Starry Night

BY ANNE SEXTON

"That does not keep me from having a terrible need of—shall I say the word—religion. Then I go out at night to paint the stars." -- Vincent Van Gogh in a letter to his brother


The town does not exist
except where one black-haired tree slips
up like a drowned woman into the hot sky.
The town is silent. The night boils with eleven stars.
Oh starry starry night! This is how
I want to die.

It moves. They are all alive.
Even the moon bulges in its orange irons
to push children, like a god, from its eye.
The old unseen serpent swallows up the stars.
Oh starry starry night! This is how
I want to die:

into that rushing beast of the night,
sucked up by that great dragon, to split
from my life with no flag,
no belly,
no cry.




The Blue Sphere

We are surrounded by the majestic statement of the sea
and the ever changing murmur of the forests;
we share all these miracles with our lively cousins:
the ones that fly
the ones that crawl
the ones that swim
the ones that run
all seeking the blessings of Mother Nature.

But all the ones that walk:
the builders of cathedrals, pyramids,
great walls and temples to the sun,
we still look at each other with hatred and misgivings
while seeking the forgiveness of a forgotten God.

-- by Adolfo Chipoco Malmborg, MD

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
43. I had trouble
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:14 PM
Mar 30

sleeping last night ...... in fact, I didn't sleep at all. So to relax, I watched some documentaries. There was one on Jimi that I had not seen before, that was good. Then a couple about Jim Morrison. Art was such an important part of that era. So much of it was hopeful. And that is surely needed today.

Eko

(7,351 posts)
30. I agree 100%.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 07:12 PM
Mar 30

And in a bit of levity I nominate you for the DU “Big Dan Teague” award. Seriously though, great writing and great point. We have to listen to the kids, respect them and help educate them as they will help educate us as well. We’re not going to be here forever and they tend to reach farther than us, both right and wrong. But they reach. And that’s not a little thing at all. It’s huge.
Keep on keeponing.
Eko

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
45. I had to
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:34 PM
Mar 30

google Dan Teague, and still don't get that?

All four of my now adult children are smarter than me. I enjoy talking with them and their friends. Up until I got the old brain injury -- I do not recommend them -- I would speak at regional colleges & universities. I have confidence in young people, but do question if previous generations screwed things up to the point of no recovery.

Eko

(7,351 posts)
49. Big Dan Teague was very loquacious.
Sun Mar 31, 2024, 12:43 AM
Mar 31

As you are. But while he was Brutish you were informative and uplifting. It was only in jest. I enjoyed everything you said and agree. My apologies if the reference was not received as I intended.
Eko

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
58. My father
Sun Mar 31, 2024, 06:31 PM
Mar 31

used to say that I could start a heated argument in an empty room. Of course, I disagreed strongly!

Silent3

(15,265 posts)
51. "as if exercising Amendment 1 is a bad thing"
Sun Mar 31, 2024, 01:28 AM
Mar 31

Yes, some people do act "as if exercising Amendment 1 is a bad thing".

But many people also confuse objecting to what another person says, arguing against it, saying that what someone else says is idiotic or mean or careless, as if that's the same thing as trying to repress free speech.

And that's stupid.

Person A: "Down with John Smith!"
Person B: "Call the police and arrest that idiot protesting against John Smith! Or maybe just throw bricks at them!"

This is an example of disrespecting free speech rights.

Person A: "Down with John Smith!"
Person B: "Person A is an idiot for protesting against John Smith!"

This is NOT an example of disrespecting free speech rights.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
54. Well said!
Sun Mar 31, 2024, 02:52 PM
Mar 31

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

In the OP, I was not speaking of "free speech," of course. Rather, the right to peacefully assemble to petition the government for a redress of grievances. The two are obviously very closely related, and thus your examples can be applied.

If those engaged in a protest rally are doing so violently, they should be arrested. I think everyone here agrees with this.

If they are doing so peacefully, those advocating for arrests are of the ilk that Martin Luther King, Jr., encountered. I don't think this community has any of that type.

If they are doing so peacefully, one can indeed say they are idiots. Let's say that they were protesting the torture of children by putting them in cages, as the last administration did. Republicans had every right to call those protesting idiots. I think that in doing so, those republicans helped define the stark differences in values between the two parties, something that surely helped us elect Joe Biden.

Then let's take a group protesting the torture of children in Gaza. Just for the heck of it, let's consider a huge, peaceful one that took place in Boston, since I'm familiar with it. Surely free speech allows for non-participants watching coverage on the news to call them idiots. No question there. Likewise, I have the right to say that those calling the crowd "idiots" are short-sighted. But with that -- at least for me -- comes the obligation to explain why I think they are making an error.

I'd start with the title of Lennon's 1974 album, "Walls & Bridges." Does it benefit the party in 2024 to build a wall between us and young people out exercising Amendment 1 rights? Now, some here might say, "We aren't putting them in cages, just building a wall to protect ourselves from listeing to them." I understandthat this is where some people's minds are at. I know they are wrong, but I don't think that makes them idiots, for we are all wrong sometimes, especially when emotions block rational thought.

A lot of the protest participants in Boston were young members of the Democratic Party. They wee not saying they will not vote for President Biden. Rather, if one took the time to lsten to what they were saying, instead of risking actually being an idiot that assumes that media reports on what they were saying were accurate, there are benefits to be accrued. Let me give but one example: my daughter was one of those in that protest rally, opposed to the torture of children. She is a Democrat. She used to work for the MA Attorney General. She currently is coordinating with the state's secretary of education on programs for "at risk" youth. She travels this country, helping set up such programs, even in red states. She used to work on immigration at a law firm, and taught part time at Boston College. I am not fully objective, but I thinkshe's the type of young Democrat that helps the party. I recognize others have a right to call her an "idiot" for engaging in a protest.

She knows that protest attracted some who will never vote for President Biden or any Democrat. And that there are also independents, who might or might not vote for Biden. And possibly some Democrats who are undecided. She also remembers my lesson we called "Politics 101" from when she was a little girl, out campaigning for Democratic Party candidates. There are three groups: A, who will always vote for you; B, who will always vote4 against you; and C, the "undecideds" who decide every election. Thus, she works patiently, to encourage Group C from those rallies to vote for President Biden.

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