I firmly believe the use of the word "genocide"

[edhopper]

in reference to Israel and Gaza is an effort by some to minimize the Holocaust and negate Israel's right to exists. Those who don't think this and use the term are just aiding this effort.
It is similar to saying "From the River to the Sea" with out acknowledging it is a call to destroy Israel.
Israel has had a disregard for civilian casualties, and that is wrong. But I see no evidence that they wish to kill the population of Gaza, and that is what genocide is. The Holocaust, Armenia, Rwanda, that is what genocide looks like.
If this is genocide, so was the US bombing of Japan in WWII, or the Iraq War. War time casualties, even if the country doing it is indifferent, is not genocide.

[lark]

1. Deliberately pushing millions of Palestinians into one area then carpet bombing that area is genocide.

That is bibi's aim, clearing out all Palestinians from land Israel stole.

[maxsolomon]

49. Netanyahu's plan is to CARPET BOMB Rafah?

Is that conjecture? The IDF hasn't "Carpet Bombed" anywhere in Gaza up to this point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing

[Captain Stern]

141. Now, be fair. Surely some carpet has been destroyed by the bombs.

The way some people toss around the expression 'carpet bombing', that might as well be what they're talking about. To them 'carpet bombing' means more than one bomb, or some other vague idea.

[Phoenix61]

2. ". But I see no evidence that they wish to kill the population of Gaza"

Bombing the area you told people to seek safety at is what then?

[edhopper]

9. Was the fire bombing of Tokyo or Dresden

genocide?

[Phoenix61]

50. Did the country of Japan declare war on another country?

Did the country of Germany declare war on another country?

[thucythucy]

64. Did Hamas declare war on Israel?

Not sure what your point is.

Massive civilian casualities aren't genocide if there's a formal declaration of war? Is that what you're saying?

Or is it that Hamas didn't issue a formal declaration, but "merely" declares that its aim is to destroy Israel and kill Jews, and "only" launched a wave of gang rapes, torture, kidnappings and murder of Jews in Israel, and so therefore these civilian casualities are in a different category than the hundreds of thousands of Japanese, German, and Italian civilians killed by the Allies in World War II?

Seriously, what's the reasoning here?

[Happy Hoosier]

70. Hamas, the elected government of Gaza, launched an attack on the territory of Israel....

... whether or not they declared war, they certainly committed an act of war.

I certainly have my criticisms of Israel, especially under Likud control, but they certainly have the right to counter-attack against Hamas and force their complete destruction. If Hamas chooses to resist to the last Palestinian civilian, that's on them.

[Phoenix61]

100. There hasn't been an election since 2006.

Not exactly a representative government, is it.

[Happy Hoosier]

158. Nope. Not the point.

I’m not blaming Gazans for the actions of Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas has chosen to hide among them.

[Phoenix61]

167. It is the point.

“JERUSALEM, Dec 31 (Reuters) - One of the senior figures in Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-wing coalition called on Sunday for Palestinian residents of Gaza to leave the besieged enclave, making way for Israelis who could "make the desert bloom".”
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-repeats-call-palestinians-leave-gaza-2023-12-31/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2031%20(Reuters),%22make%20the%20desert%20bloom%22.

How much clearer could they make it?

[cayugafalls]

108. In your scenario, who pulled the trigger on the last Palestinian?

Asking for the love of all humanity.

Peace and Love

[Happy Hoosier]

159. Not sure what you're getting at. NT

[Voltaire2]

62. It would fit the definition today.

In WWII there was no war crime of genocide.

[obamanut2012]

75. They were 100% war crimes, and what is happening in Gaza is ethnic cleansing slipping into genocide

The WWII Holocaust is not the only terrible event that is a genocide. There were many before then and many after, including other genocides going on now.

[Faux pas]

3. What 1 and 2 said.

[Fiendish Thingy]

4. Genocide is not just the violent murder of a specific group of people

The UN Genocide Convention defines genocide as:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (this includes famine)
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf

[Happy Hoosier]

71. That's utterly useless.

"in whole or in part" deaths and destruction of a group of people is part and parcel of war.

If we broaden the definition of genocide to cover basically ANY war, WTF good is the term?

[Fiendish Thingy]

99. Yeah, what's the use of having a war if you have to follow rules? Nt

[Happy Hoosier]

160. ...

Do the rules of war permit hiding in hospitals and schools? Preventing the civilian population from evacuating? I’ve actually read the Geneva Conventions.

[Fiendish Thingy]

163. Two Wrongs don't make a Right

War crimes on both sides don’t make it a just war.

[Happy Hoosier]

5. The term is being leveraged into meaninglessness.

Wars are very hard on civilian populations. Always have been. In April of 1945, over 125,000 civilians dies in the Battle of Berlin. No one called it genocide then, becauser it wasn't.... the enemy was holed up in an urban environment. They weren't surrendering. No one suggested a "permanent ceasefire" with the Nazis because we knew they had to be completely defeated.

Not mention that we were seeing exactly what a REAL genocide looks like as Allied armies found the concentration camps.


That's not to say Israel isn't doing things that I think are worthy of criticism. They are, and frankly making a terrible mistake in the process. Bibi and Likud intend to leverage this as much as possible to their advantage. IMHO, we should, at this point, severely restrict aid and military cooperation with Israel until they can accept some guardrails on their tacts and strategy. They are setting themselves up for ultimate failure, IMO.

[edhopper]

10. Yes, this

Israel might be culpable of war crimes, but that is not genocide.

[Harmony Starshine]

73. Yes, sadly

When a word or concept is used inappropriately it robs it of the power of its truth.

[BunkieBandit]

151. Regardless of what party is governing Israel,

it would still be a terrible situation in Gaza. Many left leaning governments in Israel would have done the same. The IDF does not operate differently depending on "who's" in power. They don't go half-ass. Bombs and bullets from either party wreak havoc.

[Autumn]

6. Maybe you ought to listen to what Netanyahu and his cabinet are saying and doing .

There's your evidence right there.

[Mysterian]

7. Hamas turned Gaza into a war zone

Just like the nazis turned Germany into a war zone.

Palestinians need to find people who are not terrorists to run their government.

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. "From the River to the Sea" is a paraphrase of the 1977 Likud manifesto

The phrase was also used by the Israeli ruling Likud party as part of their 1977 election manifesto which stated "Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."[11][12][13] This slogan was repeated by Menachem Begin.[38] Similar wording has also been used more recently by other Israeli politicians, like Gideon Sa'ar and also Uri Ariel of The Jewish Home. In 2014 Ariel said, "Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel."[3] The phrase has been used by the Israeli Prime Minister, Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu, in speeches.[18] Similar wording has also been used more recently by other Israeli politicians.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#Similar_sayings_by_the_Israeli_right

Maybe the situation is not as black and white as you see it.

[edhopper]

12. And when Hamas uses it

saying Palestine will be free from the River to the Sea? Sorry that is exactly what it means to those saying it now.
Black and White.

[Celerity]

11. "From the River to the Sea"

Was it a call for genocide and/or ethnic cleansing when similar concepts (some even more expansionary than just the the West Bank as the boundary) were used by Israeli Revisionist Zionists starting almost 100 years ago?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#History_of_the_phrase

snip
...................According to American historian Robin D. G. Kelley, the phrase "began as a Zionist slogan signifying the boundaries of Eretz Israel." Israeli-American historian Omer Bartov notes that Zionist usage of such language predates the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 and began with the Revisionist movement of Zionism led by Vladimir Jabotinski, which spoke of establishing a Jewish state in all of Palestine and had a song with the slogan: "The Jordan has two banks; this one is ours, and the other one too," suggesting a Jewish state extending even beyond the Jordan River.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_East_Bank_of_the_Jordan_(song)

"The East Bank of the Jordan" (Hebrew: שמאל הירדן, Smol Ha'Yarden, also known as שתי גדות לירדן, Shtei Gadot La'Yarden, lit. Two Banks to the Jordan) is a song written by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the Revisionist Zionist leader. The song became one of the most known leading songs of the Revisionist Zionist youth movement Betar. The song includes four verses. Each verse ends with the following line which is the main political message and theme of the poem:

"Two Banks has the Jordan – This is ours and, that is as well."

Jabotinsky wrote the song in 1929 while visiting Paris. The first version of the song was handed to the Zionist Students' union "Yardeniya" in Kaunas, on 18 November 1929. In a later version, which is the one known today, the song was published in one of the Yishuv's daily newspapers, "Doar Hayom", on 11 April 1930.

Was it a call for genocide and/or ethnic cleansing when Likud used it?

In 1977, the concept appeared in an election manifesto of the Israeli political party Likud, which stated that “between the sea and the Jordan there will be only Israeli sovereignty.”

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

[edhopper]

13. When Hamas, their supporters

and other pro Palestinian groups use it. It means the end of Israel. Period.

[Celerity]

16. Non responsive.

[edhopper]

17. To the point

without obfuscation.

[Celerity]

21. No, it is simply not answering the legimate questions I asked. There is nothing 'to the point' about non-responsiveness.

[edhopper]

22. Okay

No. Period. Likud was stating Israel, the country that was there had a right to continue to exists. Hamas uses it to destroy Israel and have a Palestinian State, which they run. Two different meanings for the same phrase. ALL who use it today are using it in the way Hamas does.

[Celerity]

26. It isn't '2 different ways' in terms of what I am discussing, as some on both sides have and are using it to the extent

wherein they mean the destruction and/or removal of the opposing side from both the land and from the wielding of any meaningful political power.

Some elements of both sides DO mean just that. All of those elements on both sides engaged in those types of epistemological framings and power projections are wrong for doing so.

[edhopper]

28. We disagree

[thomski64]

110. ..and both sides have the one...

...true God on their side..

[whathehell]

104. Then what does it mean when Israel and its supporters say it?

[Mosby]

85. You're implying things that aren't there.

When Israel declared independence in 1948, they made everyone a citizen. The revisionist Zionists didn't have a say about that.

When the Israeli government signed the various agreements in the Oslo Accords, which acknowledged Palestinian national aspirations and created a path to a two state solution the revisionist Zionists didn't have a say about that.

When PMs Barak and Olmert made offers in 2000-01 and 2007 that would have created a Palestinian state the revisionist Zionists didn't have a say about that.

You are doing the same thing that others do where they find a historical quote from someone associated with Israel or Zionism and use that to insinuate things about the modern government. It's a sleazy, intellectually lazy tactic.

[Celerity]

127. No, no I am not, and you are ignoring Likud, (who ARE currently in power) both in their sloganeering and their actions.

I brought up the Revisionist Zionists' usage to show a histrotical antecedent to the Likud (and the other even more RW, more extreme elements in their coalition government) posturing.

And how dare you insinuate I am sleazy. You are way out over your skis mate.

[Mosby]

134. Bibi is part of a coalition.

That coalition, despite having a Likud leader, has to do what's best for ALL of Israel and its citizens. The coalition represents all Israelis, including "settlers" and also means recognizing the rights of Palestinians in the OTs regardless what the historical reality is, because the fact is that Jews are indigenous to Israel, Judea, Samaria and the Levant. Their indigenity goes back thousands of years, well before the Arabs conquered the middle east and settled in areas west of the Jordan River.

I think your argument is deeply flawed, I wasn't speaking about you personally, I think I made that pretty clear in my previous post.

[Celerity]

139. so many RW Israelis, including many in Likud absolutely look at it as a war on all of the Gazans and/or all Palestinians

from the early days, here are some examples:

Israeli Heritage Minister: "Blow up & flatten everything [in Gaza] Simply a delight for the eyes.....

We need to talk about the day after.. We give out land plots to all those [soldiers] who have fought against Gaza over the years & to [settlers]"

Source: Israel's Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu's FB page, openly calling for wiping out Gaza & giving it to soldiers & settlers

Link to tweet

related:


Israeli MP Galit Distal Atbaryan Says It Clearly for World to Hear: 'Erase All of Gaza From the Face of the Earth'

https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-genocide


Galit Distel Atbaryan, a member of the Israeli Knesset for the ruling Likud Party, is seen holding an Israeli flag.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-genocide

An Israeli lawmaker from the ruling right-wing Likud Party on Wednesday offered fresh evidence that the Israeli government's aim in its bombardment of Gaza is a genocidal effort to kill or forcibly remove the more than 2 million Palestinians living there, declaring, "Gaza should be erased." With the support of the United States and other Western countries, Israel has claimed since October 7—when Hamas launched a surprise attack on southern Israel, killing as many as 1,400 people and taking more than 200 hostage—that its bombardment of Gaza is necessary to destroy the armed group, even though the IDF has repeatedly struck civilian targets and killed nearly 9,000 Palestinians so far, including over 3,500 children.

After screening a 45-minute montage of footage taken by Hamas fighters' body cameras during the October 7 attack, Knesset member and former Public Diplomacy Minister Galit Distal Atbaryan posted on Facebook that Israeli officials must invest all their energy "in one thing: erasing all of Gaza from the face of the Earth.""That the brave monsters will fly to the southern fence and enter Egyptian territory," Atbaryan continued, an apparent reference to Israel's reported plan to permanently expel Palestinians who survive the assault to Egypt's Sinai Peninsula, imposing a "second Nakba" on the population. "Or let them die... Gaza needs to be wiped out." "Revengeful and vicious IDF is required here," she continued. "Anything less than that is immoral."

Atbaryan's post signified "genocidal intent, clearly expressed," said author and former Irish Times environmental editor Frank McDonald.

Link to tweet

Writer and organizer Fiona Edwards noted that despite public comments like Atbaryan's, the U.S. and other Western governments continue to insist that "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East."

Link to tweet

Atbaryan is only the latest Israeli official to proudly announce to the world the violence the government plans to perpetrate in Gaza, both following the October 7 attack and long before the latest escalation in fighting in the region. Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called residents of Gaza, about half of whom are children, "human animals" as he ordered a "complete siege" on the enclave including a total blockade of food, fuel, and electricity. Former military officer Eliyahu Yossian said the IDF must enter Gaza "with the aim of revenge, zero morality, maximum corpses," and told Channel 14 in Israel on Monday that "there is no population in Gaza, there are 2.5 million terrorists."

Link to tweet

snip

Israeli President says there are no innocent citizens in the Gaza Strip

Link to tweet

[Mosby]

147. The last post from twitter is lying.

The president never said "there are no innocent citizens in the Gaza Strip" that's just a lie. Watch the video.

I might go thru the rest of your post later, maybe.

I might also watch the dbacks.

[Celerity]

150. No it is not lying, as that was the gist (notice it was not a quote) of what he was saying.

Here is what he said:

'It's an entire nation out there that is responsible.'

'It is not true, this rhetoric about civilians not were, were not aware, not involved, it's absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.'

'But we are at war, we are at war, we are at war with/at all, we are defending our homes, we are protecting our homes, that's the truth and when a nation protects it's home it fights and we will fight until we break their backbone.'

[Earth-shine]

14. Some would rather quibble over the meaning of words than deal with the actual truth.

I don't give a damn how you define "genocide." Something akin to it is happening in Gaza caused by people who say "never again."

[Sympthsical]

15. It's ideological desperation

Because people know - even if it's only in the back of their minds - that it's very difficult to apply their anti-Western Marxism to a liberal democracy unless they can shoehorn the Israel/Palestine conflict into a context of oppressor and oppressed.

It has to have that framing, or else their ideology collapses. Then they're simply doing the work of a radical fundamentalist religious sect that is extremely illiberal at its core and holds none of the values that these people keep claiming they are for - democracy and equality for women, LGBTers, and ethnic minorities.

When one carries water for Hamas by spreading their propaganda far and wide, it serves anti-Western goals at the risk of unmasking their liberal claims as empty and meaningless. It's very difficult to pull off the performative if people can see you exposed on the stage.

So they can't really say what they really think, because they know they'll lose the audience. Well, most of them do. Some of them don't care and go full anti-Israel, anti-Jew, resistance, "Just like Mandela!" radical on the situation. But the "reasonables" know they have to - at best - be very, very quiet about it all lest the rust and rot of their ideology meet open air.

Because, let's be honest. If people were really "Pro-Palestine" they would have had a lot more to say as Hamas degraded Gaza for the past twenty years and stole the aid that was meant for the people to enact their genocidal goals. They would have condemned the treatment of women and minorities and called out Hamas' abuse of their own citizens. They would have said something - anything at all - at the efforts to propagandize children from birth into sharing these radical, genocidal goals.

They said very close to next to nothing. Because they did not care. And they still do not care. They keep very quiet about stories of abuse, theft of aid, the rapes and the tortures. Because it works against the narrative. They can give a very mealy-mouthed perfunctory "Hamas is bad" if pressed, but they would really rather prefer it if no one said anything at all. Silence in the name of violent oppression is the only way one can gaslight people to think violent religious radicals are the true oppressed.

It's the only way it works. With silence, cooperation, and assistance through propaganda.

Part of this is, Israel needs to be brought down morally. So they have to scratch at it. They know - they fucking know - Israel faces an existential threat by radical Islam. If we're being honest, it's clear a lot of these anti-Westerners aren't exactly against that. It's not a bug - it's the whole fucking feature.

So they pick, pick, pick at it. To get that equivalence going. Stories that are blatantly counter-factual and against Israel that go uncorrected. Picking and choosing from the daily google which things, major and minor, suit an anti-Israel narrative. Then they spread them far and wide.

The genocide rhetoric is the mantle piece, the golden statue, the pillar around which the moral confluence revolves. If they can make Israel the equivalent of genocidal medieval fuckwads, then they can get reasonable people to think, "Maybe we should just bop on out of this and leave them to it." Because they know, if the West retreats, the genocidal religious radicals will get to work in earnest.

Western retreat is the goal. Their language betrays them. Anti-colonialism, apartheid, genocide. They need to frame it this way. The ideology demands it.

Racism, anti-semitism, illiberalism. It gets wrapped up in nobility. It's resistance. We're anti-oppression!

As they work to support some of the most oppressive forces in the modern world. George Orwell truly would be having the best of times right now. People forget. There were a non-zero number of people in the West who thought Stalin and Mao were on the right path and never acknowledged what they were supporting until the reality became too obvious to deny or explain away.

They didn't go anywhere. They're just focused on other things now. Mainly Israel, it seems.

[edhopper]

19. Thank you

very well said.

[sarisataka]

24. A righteous rant

and an absolutely accurate one.

[betsuni]

107. Exactly! Thank you.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

18. The definition from the US Holocaust Museum

Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:

Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

There are a number of other serious, violent crimes that do not fall under the specific definition of genocide. They include crimes against humanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and mass killing.

Source

Looks like they disagree with you. Israel is committing genocide by at least 2 of those categories.

[edhopper]

20. I think

the last line pertains, and not genocide. And I stand by my statement. The post above yours says it better.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

23. Israel is doing all of the first three

Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

Bibi has made it clear he wants that group gone. And I'm not talking about Hamas, but Palestine. It's genocide.

[hlthe2b]

25. I think you ignore a lot of important aspects, none of which occurred with your two US examples. BUT

I am done arguing the point. People see what they want. Me? I have always seen shades of gray-- and that makes debate very complex (and presumedly annoying for those who want it to be black and white).

But my (and others) ability to see the complexities in these situations is what is needed to try to broker an end to the constant violence and indiscriminate death (and self-defeating policies) in the long term--even where no one finds an absolutist win in that.

[edhopper]

27. What am I missing in this conflict

I am not arguing the aspects of Israel's actions. I am saying it does not amount to genocide and the use of that term serves an anti-Jewish purpose.
In fact, there is not "shade of grey" when one uses the term genocide.

[hlthe2b]

33. Barricading food aid and allowing starvation is not something the US did. Netanyahu, has.

and while I have support for Israel, I am NOT going to defend their (Netanyahu's) intentional cruelty. At some point, it, along with past actions towards the Palestinian people-- including enabling Hamas-- is moving far too close in that direction. There are aspects of Netanyahu's policies that must be stopped well before we arrive at that level of repeated, intentional atrocity.

[sarisataka]

35. The US certainly did interdict supplies to Japan

including food in WW2. We sank every cargo ship we could find to cut them off.

I find it interesting that in the annual atomic bomb debates, one of the alternatives put forth every year is the US could have blockaded Japan and starved them into surrendering...

[hlthe2b]

38. We did not barricade/blockade them into starving. You can disagree or debate the atomic bomb

but we have not tried to wipe out an entire people--nor did we exact retribution after winning both the European and Pacific fronts of WWII. Read the Marshall plan if you don't understand my point.

And I am done arguing this. You know what Netanyahu is doing is wrong and has gone far beyond any targeted conduct of the war against HAMAS into a never-ending atrocity-filled indiscriminate war on civilians--so as to prevent his loss of office in ultimate elections and facing the juridical repercussions of his corruption. Yes, you damned well do.

Defend Netanyahu's acts all you want. It is HE who ignored the warnings of his own female IDF security officers' identification of the HAMAS plan a year before; It is he who did nothing while Israelis were under attack for hours. It is HE who has been approving the Qataris' funding and enabling of HAMAS. I support the Israelis and their ultimate ability to hold elections to rid themselves of this corrupt poseur.

[sarisataka]

46. Just to be clear, I have never spoken in favor of Netanyahu

and consistently supported his removal from office.

[hlthe2b]

52. ...

Good. Agree.

I actually thought I was responding to the OP, so some of my response might have been more directed to him.

[thucythucy]

66. The Allies during World War One did in fact impose a blockade on the Central Powers

and used the starvation of civilians, most especially the elderly, children, and people with disabilities, as a weapon of war.

Indeed, this has been called "The Starvation Blockade" by historians of the period.

Britain, France, Italy and the USA continued the blockade even after the armistice was signed on November 11, 1918. In fact, they strengthened it, impounding the German's Baltic Sea fishing fleet which by that time was the only source of protein for tens of millions of Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, and others in Central Europe. This was done to force German negotiators to accept the conditions imposed by the Versailles Treaty.

So, under your definition, did the Allies in WWI commit genocide against the German people?

[hlthe2b]

68. I have not used the term 'genocide' as you accuse

This not being the first such instance of seemingly intentionally disingenuous reframing of my comments (and those of some other DUers that I have observed recently) you will earn a spot on at least my temporary ignore list. Have a good day but bye.

[thucythucy]

113. I apologize for my mistake.

Since the subject of this thread was the use of the term "genocide" and since you seemed to be arguing that Israel was taking an unprecedented action in its blockade, I conflated your argument with those of others making similar points who are indeed charging Israel with genocide.

I do however want to point out again that the deliberate use of starvation is not unprecedented in warfare, sad as that is.

I think once a group of people decide to wage war, the level of violence and atrocity quickly spirals out of control. For this reason those whoi initiate such conflicts bear an awful responsibility.

[EX500rider]

129. "We did not barricade/blockade them into starving." lol, it was literally called "Operation Starvation"

An island nation, Japan was vulnerable to a blockade of essential food and strategic materials.
In 1945 the U.S. Army Air Forces and the U.S. Navy, hoping to put the final nail in the enemy's coffin, kicked off Operation Starvation, the aerial mining of Japanese waters.

[PatSeg]

37. History will not be kind to Netanyahu and his government

History will determine whether what we're witnessing is "genocide" or not and Bibi is looking more and more like he is on the wrong side of history.

Meanwhile, we are here in the comfort of our homes debating if the madness and cruelty in Gaza is "genocide" when tens of thousands of innocent civilians are suffering, many on the brink of starvation. We get so caught up in putting a name to it, we often miss the point. I'm not sure that all those starving, homeless Palestinians are concerned about what we call it.

[hlthe2b]

39. Yup

[obamanut2012]

78. Well stated

[PatSeg]

89. Thank you

[cornball 24]

101. Spot on!!

[hlthe2b]

40. Denial--so many believe to be only a river in Egypt.

Nothing to be advanced by wearing blinders.

[jimfields33]

29. I could not agree with you more. It's also 100 percent antisemitism as a dog whistle

[PatSeg]

41. I don't see that at all

This is Democratic Underground. Being critical of an authoritarian government is more than reasonable among informed, intelligent people.

[jimfields33]

44. I want talking DU. Just the protesters who support Hamas against Israel.

[PatSeg]

47. I see

I don't see any protestors who support Hamas pretty much anywhere. But I do see people being accused of supporting Hamas because they oppose the actions of Netanyahu's government in this conflict.

I can support the Israeli hostages and innocent Palestinian civilians and still be vehemently opposed to terrorism and the Hamas attacks on 10/7/23. I can also be opposed to any government who uses acts of terrorism for political gain. We saw a lot of that in our own country after 9/11.

[jimfields33]

67. This is prime example. I'm sorry but I refuse to support this.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218817260

[PatSeg]

69. Likewise

I don't necessarily see that as pro Hamas though. A bunch of primarily young people who really don't understand that much about what is going on in the Middle East and have a very limited grasp of history. I don't agree with them and I don't think their protests help anyone. It just divides people even more. Some people thrive on that.

When we stop taking sides based on race, nationality, and religion the world will be a better place. Unfortunately, too many put people into categories other than the persecuted and the persecutors, which only fans the flames of hate and distrust. And sadly, some people just need someone to hate. We see so much of that these days.

[jimfields33]

94. Agreed wholeheartedly.

[PatSeg]

97. Hopefully, a better sane world is possible

[Cha]

148. Fuck their "genocide" Shit.. TY for the link.

Link to tweet

And, Fuck the Evil protesters Attacking Jewish Students and Businesses.

Just one Vicious Example..

Violent mob screaming ‘intifada’ force Jews to flee through tunnels at UC Berkeley

https://www.thejc.com/news/world/violent-mob-screaming-intifada-force-jews-to-flee-through-tunnels-at-uc-berkeley-da62h2io

[EX500rider]

130. "I don't see any protestors who support Hamas"

Sure, sure, I am sure this sign does not support Hamas actions at all!
lol

"By any means necessary"
?w=525

[obamanut2012]

79. wrong

[Sky Jewels]

91. You could not be more wrong.

Last edited Thu Mar 28, 2024, 03:51 PM - Edit history (1)

You think if you disingenuously conflate antisemitism with criticism of the cruelty of the government of Israel, that you will silence people who are speaking out about the genocide in Gaza. It's not going to work. Also, you are undermining people who point out actual antisemitism, making it into a "boy who cried wolf" scenario, which is a huge disservice to Jewish people as a whole.

People don't take issue with Israel decimating Gaza because the perpetrators are Jewish. They take issue with it because it is an immoral mass slaughter, starvation and displacement of tens of thousands of innocents. Being Jewish doesn't give someone carte blanche to commit atrocities without criticism. I'd say that view is rather insulting to the Jewish people as a whole, the vast, vast majority of whom do NOT commit brutal, immoral acts like we're seeing perpetrated on Gazan people by Netanyahu's IDF.

[jrthin]

30. If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

[ripcord]

31. Some people would really be happy to prove genocide

There is no better way to marginalize Jews.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

60. I am in no way saying that "Jews" are committing genocide.

I AM saying that Bibi and the government of Israel is. I firmly know and understand that difference. I am sure that others here at DU understand it, too. Do you?

[ripcord]

65. Do you think the US firebombing of Tokyo where over 80k were killed and over 200k made homeless

The blockade of the Japanese home islands and dropping 2 atomic bombs, all of which targeted civilians was genocide?

[obamanut2012]

81. yes, it was a war crime, but it was not yet one

[Cuthbert Allgood]

93. Did we say the things Bibi has about getting rid of Japan?

Then probably not. But we do know why Israel is doing what they are doing because their leader has told us.

And, for the record, a lot of what we did to citizens of Japanese descent in the US was pretty damn close to, if not, genocide.

[EX500rider]

132. " Did we say the things Bibi has about getting rid of Japan"

You mean like:
"Before we're through with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in hell."
Fleet Admiral William Frederick Halsey, Jr.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

136. Sounds like genocide, then.

[EX500rider]

137. Actions not words define "genocide"

Are all these wars with high civilian casualties "genocide" also or only when Israel does it?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

138. Your "what-about-ism" is getting old.

We can look at what Israel is doing and make a decision as to whether it meets the definition of genocide. Comparing it to past events doesn't change what is happening now. And if you think I'm reluctant to say the US has engaged in genocide, you are going to be sadly disappointed in that.

I'm not antisemitic. I'm not holding this against all Jews. The government of Israel is horrible and has been doing horrible things to the Palestinians for years. What they are doing now is ethnic cleansing at the best and genocide as the worst. Stop stanning for them.

[sarisataka]

32. Words have meanings

people twist meanings.

[dembotoz]

34. nope...i do not wish to give israel an eternal get out of jail free card

[TheKentuckian]

43. That is for murdering, raping, genocidal, theocratic extremist Arabs and Persian terrorists

and their support web.

[dembotoz]

45. how many Palestinians must die? all of them????????????

israel is talking about stealing their land.....again

[Happy Hoosier]

169. You don't have to...

But you shouldn’t make a term meaningless at the same time.

Israel doesn’t have to be committing genocide to be doing things that are wrong.

[patphil]

36. It looks more like ethnic cleansing to me.

When this current round of warfare is over, watch and see how much land the Israeli's seize in both GaZa, and the West Bank.

[PatSeg]

42. I wish that wasn't true

But sadly I'm afraid you're probably right.

[Voltaire2]

61. ethnic cleansing is in fact an act of genocide.

[patphil]

74. There is a difference between the two.

Ethnic cleansing is a process whereby a group of people is driven off their land, or out of their country, because they are either racially, socially, or religiously different, so as to create a more homogeneous population.
Genocide is a process of eradicating a group of people by killing them.
The two concepts are not entirely different; they do overlap. Essentially the difference is to what extent the attacking group is intent on going to bring about their desired result.
Although Israel has engaged in brutality against the Palestinians, I don't believe that eradication is their goal. They just want them off the lands that Israel considers to be historically theirs.
It's ironic that the Palestinian phrase, "from the river to the sea" is seen as a call to cleanse Palestine of Jews, but in practice both sides have that same goal.

[Voltaire2]

88. Fair enough.

I guess the argument is that the pushing of the Gaza population from north gaza to south was in fact an ethnic cleansing, but as the population was then attacked relentlessly in the south, also a genocide. Both typically happen concurrently. See Rwanda.

[patphil]

142. If the Israeli's proceed with a military attack on the city of Rafah, I might want to reconsider my position.

[GreenWave]

48. Genocide has existed on even much more horrific levels.

Germany killed more than 56,000,000 Eastern Europeans during WWII from war and intentionally destroying the infrastructure.
Native Americans more than 100,000,000 over a 500 year period.
And the brutalities of slavery might also get a large number as well.

[ismnotwasm]

51. I agree You know, I understand the criticism of the Israeli government.

I don’t understand those who want to criticize the Israeli government but then use anti-semitic tropes (they then think they should be immune from charges of antisemitism).

The constant use of the word “genocide” when it doesn’t actually apply rides along the edges of this, and, depending on who is doing the criticizing jumps right in the middle of the anti-semitic pool.

I also don’t understand how anyone, ANYONE can not realize how bad Hamas actually is, and has been way before the current situation.

It’s a horrific situation all around

[claudette]

54. If it were

only or mainly Hamas members being killed in a war, it wouldn't be called genocide. But, 30,000 INNOCENT Palestinians are not Hamas.

[ismnotwasm]

63. Hamas is the elected government of Palestine

I take it you believe that Israel is targeting innocent Palestinians with the goal of completely eradicating them?

[claudette]

117. Babies and

Toddlers don’t vote

[Ace Rothstein]

120. They've never voted in any country involved in a war.

I don't understand why Gaza is a special case in regards to this.

[claudette]

123. Targeting

Innocents in a war is a crime. Not collateral damage

[Ace Rothstein]

125. Can you provide a source that Israel is deliberately targeting children?

[claudette]

128. It's been

reported in the news Google is your friend. Hospitals caring for starving children shouldn’t be a target

[Ace Rothstein]

131. So you're being hyperbolic.

[EX500rider]

135. Hospitals should not be used as command posts & bases by Hamas..

...or they lose any protection status they have

[ismnotwasm]

152. I understand this, of course.

Do you think the Israeli government is deliberately targeting thousands of innocents in an attempt to eradicate the Palestinian people?

[claudette]

153. I don't know

what other reason would they have to kill over 30,000 Palestinians and destroy the infrastructure of Gaza and cause famine among innocents? I think Nuttyahoo has an ulterior motive - to obtain more land in Gaza. How many times has he tried to send Palestinian refugees to other places?

[Darwins_Retriever]

84. Innocent?

The residents of Gaza know where Hamas is hiding, they protect them. They know what Hamas is doing, they help them. They know that Hamas fires rockets at civilians in Israel. They know that Hamas wants to rid the world of Israel, hell they want that too.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

109. All of them want that?

Bold claim. Have anything to support that? How many of the children that were killed and starved hold those views you are sure they all do.

[claudette]

116. Yes

Innocent children killed and starving

[sarisataka]

90. But, 30,000 INNOCENT Palestinians are not Hamas.

Are hamas aliens who evacuated to the mothership after October 7th?

Because that is about the only way that statement can be true.

[EX500rider]

133. "But, 30,000 INNOCENT Palestinians are not Hamas."

So wow, in your mind the IDF hasn't killed ANY Hamas members yet?
That seems wildly unlikely.

[claudette]

53. So, then

what would you call it? "Self-defense??" What a joke. It's a deliberate attempt to kill innocents. There's only one word for that. Calling it genocide does not minimize the Holocaust. We know that happened. Using that word describes what is being done to innocent Palestinian citizens, especially the children.

[sarisataka]

59. Check out a meeting about remembering the Holocaust

and the response by those who freely throw around the term genocide
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218817260

[edhopper]

77. There is a whole world of things between

"only self defense" and genocide.
This is not genocide.

[claudette]

121. Your opinion

only

[edhopper]

122. It's all opinion

[claudette]

124. Not if it's

a charge of war crimes in a court. Evidence may prove it

[edhopper]

126. Which is decided by

the opinion of judges.
And I did not say war crimes, I said genocide specifically.

[IrishAfricanAmerican]

55. RE: "But I see no evidence that they wish to kill the population of Gaza"

Netanyahu and his RW whack jobs sure the fuck do! Kill/relocate/genocide.

[Voltaire2]

56. FYI there was no legal definition of genocide as a war crime during WWII.

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as
such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf

This is the definition according to the UN. It is stunningly clear that what is being done by Israel in the (re-)occupied territory of Gaza qualifies.

[ripcord]

57. In WW2 the U.S. firebombed Tokyo

The closest they have been able to narrow down the civilian casualty number is between 80k and 130k in one attack. That is not even getting into the civilian casualties after dropping 2 atomic bombs.

[Ping Tung]

95. Which were war crimes then as are the current war crimes in Gaza.

As usual the deaths of civilians are dismissed as collateral damage and called necessary.

[BunkieBandit]

156. Do we really want to prosecute FDR post mortem?

For genocide or even war crimes to a lesser degree? Wow, just wow.

[Iggo]

58. If some other country was doing it to some other walled off minority inside their borders...

…we’d call it what it is.

[CincyDem]

96. Really? Would we??

Do you think the Uyghur’s aren’t in the same boat. Where’s the daily protests in the street about China. How about Saudi actions in Yemen…any global out cry?

Other countries are doing it but the world seems solely focused on one. Hmmm…why might that be???

[Earth-shine]

155. Your analogy is flawed.

We, the USA, are arming Israel. Unfortunately, what Israel does reflects on us.

China and Saudi Arabia are not financially supplemented by us.

[CincyDem]

161. Not the analogy I made.

The initial premise was that we would not accept Israel’s behavior toward a minority population from any other country. Period.

I said we would and have. Period.

Now you’re adding a new element…one that says we’re obligated to say something about it because we provide military funding to Israel. No opinion on that but it essentially says we do accept this kind of behavior from counties we don’t fund.

So, the statement that we wouldn’t accept this from ANY other country (my emphasis) is not correct since we don’t provide funding (the key to acceptance/ non-acceptance) to everyone.

[Earth-shine]

165. Our gov't has condemned China and the Saudis for human rights violations and more, many times in the past.

What can we do about them?

Israel is a different story. We have influence. We are seen by many as Israel's supplier. We will be held guilty by association whether it is appropriate or not.

Right or wrong, Netanyahu's actions could cost Biden the election, and I think it may be one of N's intentions.

I applaud Biden for trying to hold Israel back and get aid to the Gazans.

Peace must be waged as aggressively as war. Cheers.

[sarisataka]

103. No we wouldn't

Last edited Thu Mar 28, 2024, 03:28 PM - Edit history (1)

posts about Darfur, Pakistan, Myanmar... all drop without comment on the rare occasions they are brought up

Example- https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218816877

[Johnny2X2X]

72. Agree with the premise of this thread

Civilian casualties are awful, but this is not genocide. Doesn't mean the IDF is without blame, they're being way too careless with their bombing. But it's not even near meeting the definition of genocide.

Genocide- The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

I don't believe this is occurring and if the DF was purposely trying to kill civilians, they're doing a terrible job of it by killing only 1/100th of 1% of the popualation of people who some are claiming are the victims of an ongoing genocide.

I think the IDF is being careless and that's causing thousands of civilian deaths. But that is not genocide and to call it genocide diminishes the meaning of the word.

[obamanut2012]

76. The WWII Jewish Holocaust is not the only terrible event that is a genocide. There were many before then and many after

Saying those genocides cannot be called that is extremely disrespectful to those victims. gatekeeping the term "genocide" is not a good flex.

And, what is happening in Gaza is literal, textbook ethnic cleasnsing, which is quickly becoming a genocide.

[edhopper]

80. And I listed two others

where millions died as comparison.

[sarisataka]

87. Do you find it interesting that of all the ongoing genocides

Only Gaza gets worldwide attention or any notice here?

[Harmony Starshine]

82. Absolutely

When a word or concept is used inappropriately it robs it of the power of its truth.

[edhopper]

83. Which is the purpose of

some who use it for this.

[TheKentuckian]

92. The purpose is to make the term meaningless or

have so many disputed meanings to arrive at the same place with the ambition of actually committing/allowing the genuine article.

Every howler a seed of Hitler.

They want dead Jews by the millions.

[Squaredeal]

86. The U.S. has to stop sending money to Israel used to purchase munitions for its massive killing of innocent people,

Right now . This is not what America is about.

[edhopper]

98. My previous thread

agrees

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218816686

[brush]

102. Do you know Netanyahu has used the term "river to sea" also as to his aim in the region.

So what do you say to that? It seems to indicate a desire to rid Gaza of all Palestinians, also from the west bank.

Notice I used the "rid" and not "genicide." It's a less harsh term, doesn't necessarily mean killing, or does it?

[Redleg]

106. We should focus on the actions and not on the semantics

of whether it is genocide or not. Arguing about whether it constitutes genocide ignores the real losses suffered by some of these people in Gaza.

[brush]

111. How about focusing on Netanyahu using the term "from the river to the sea" also?

which was my point...forget about the side point of semantics.

[Redleg]

105. Possibly but not necessarily

I don't know what a person's intentions are for calling it "genocide." Some people might sincerely believe it is. Perhaps others are trying to minimize the Holocaust. I don't know.

What I do know is that there a number of people here at DU who constantly invoke our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as points of comparison. I guess they are trying to say "if those two instances weren't genocide, how can this thing in Gaza be?"

Our nation's actions in previous wars do not justify any and all actions that another state may take in executing war. While it isn't clear to me that that Israel's military actions constitute the technical definition of genocide, I do have concerns for the seemingly high numbers of killed and wounded non-combatants and the ongoing shortage of water, food, medicine and other supplies. I don't believe that this makes me a Holocaust denier or pro-Hamas, or even anti-Israel.

[edhopper]

114. No one is saying not to criticize Israel

I am saying the use of this term is wrong and unnecessary.
I said nothing about war crimes or over blown response. In fact. I have another thread calling for an end to aid for Israel.

[Duncan Grant]

112. Bookmarked (circular, inescapable, belief systems)

1. The use of the word genocide to explain what Israel’s done to Gaza is an effort to minimize the Holocaust and negate Israel’s right to exist.
2. If you disagree with the above, you are aiding the effort to minimize the Holocaust and negate Israel’s right to exist.
3. Efforts to compare and contrast Gaza with historical atrocities produces no significant similarities to genocide. No context can be provided to events in Gaza. None.
4. The use of the word genocide to explain what Israel’s done to Gaza is an effort to minimize the Holocaust and negate Israel’s right to exist.
5. If you disagree with the above, you are aiding the effort to minimize the Holocaust and negate Israel’s right to exist.

[betsuni]

115. Another redefinition for propaganda in the Pseudo Radicals Dictionary.

[Behind the Aegis]

118. Like "apartheid", "anti-Semitism" and so many others in order to fit their "needs".

[H2O Man]

119. Respectfully disagree.

Sadly, there have been several genocides in human history. No one group owns the word.

[EX500rider]

140. What's missing is intent

Lots of dead civilians is most wars.

The US killing almost 3 million Japanese was not genocide because as soon as they surrendered we stopped, if we were intent on genocide the bombing would have continued.

The Jews could have surrendered all they wanted to Hitler, he was still going to put them in boxcars to the death camps, THAT is genocide.

If Hamas surrendered the IDF would stop their assault on Gaza, therefore war, not genocide.

If just dead civilians equaled "genocide" then I guess all these recent wars were too?

[David__77]

144. Section 101 (starting at p. 59) of South Africa ICJ case extensively addresses intent (linked).

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf

For instance:

— Prime Minister of Israel: On 7 October 2023, in a televised address by the Government Press Office, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu promised to “operate forcefully everywhere”.439 On 13 October 2023, he confirmed that “[w]e are striking our enemies with unprecedented might . . .”.440 On 15 October 2023, when Israeli airstrikes had already killed over 2,670 Palestinians, including 724 children,441 the Prime Minister stated that Israeli soldiers “understand the scope of the mission” and stand ready “to defeat the bloodthirsty monsters who 435 UN OCHA, Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #44 (19 November 2023), https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-44; UN OCHA, Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #48 (23 November 2023), https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flashupdate-48. 436 “Abandoned babies found decomposing in Gaza hospital weeks after it was evacuated”, NBC News (2 December 2023), https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/abandoned-babies-found-decomposing-gaza-hospital-evacuated-rcna127533. 437 WHO, Women and newborns bearing the brunt of the conflict in Gaza, UN agencies warn (3 November 2023), https://www.who.int/news/item/03-11-2023-women-and-newborns-bearing-the-brunt-of-the-conflict-in-gaza-un-agencieswarn. 438 UN Press Release, Women bearing the brunt of Israel-Gaza conflict: UN expert (20 November 2023), https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/women-bearing-brunt-israel-gaza-conflict-un-expert (emphasis added). 439 Prime Minister of Israel, @IsraeliPM, Tweet (10:31 pm, October 7, 2023),

Link to tweet

. 440 Address by the Prime Minister of Israel, (13 October 2023),

. Translation in “‘Only the beginning’ says Netanyahu as Israel makes first raids into Gaza”, Reuters (13 October 2023), https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/now-is-time-war-says-israels-military-chief-2023-10-12/. 441 UNICEF, Immediate Needs Document in the State of Palestine (October – December 2023) (17 October 2023), https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/immediate-needs-document-state-palestine-october-december2023. (Total as of 17:45, 15 October 2023; children as of 12:00, 14 October 2023). 60 have risen against [Israel] to destroy us”.442 On 16 October 2023, in a formal address to the Israeli Knesset, he described situation as “a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle”, 443 a dehumanising theme to which he returned on various occasions, including: on 3 November 2023, in a letter to Israeli soldiers and officers also published on the platform ‘X’ (formerly Twitter); the letter asserted that: “[t]his is the war between the sons of light and the sons of darkness. We will not let up on our mission until the light overcomes the darkness — the good will defeat the extreme evil that threatens us and the entire world.”444 The Israeli Prime Minister also returned to the theme in his ‘Christmas message’, stating: “we’re facing monsters, monsters who murdered children in front of their parents . . . This is a battle not only of Israel against these barbarians, it’s a battle of civilization against barbarism”.445 On 28 October 2023, as Israeli forces prepared their land invasion of Gaza, the Prime Minister invoked the Biblical story of the total destruction of Amalek by the Israelites, stating: “you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember”.446 The Prime Minister referred again to Amalek in the letter sent on 3 November 2023 to Israeli soldiers and officers.447 The relevant biblical passage reads as follows: “Now go, attack Amalek, and proscribe all that belongs to him. Spare no one, but kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses”.448

Much more, of course, at link.

[EX500rider]

146. If Hamas surrenders and the IDF stops then genocide is not the intent

[lapucelle]

149. The word "intent" appears 17 times in South Africa's 84 page document,

including twice within the quoted statute and once in a footnote.

South Africa may have referred to "intent" seventeen times, but given the ICJ's initial orders and its denial of SA's demands, South Africa clearly did not come close to establishing it.

[lapucelle]

145. Many of the folks pontificating on *social media* have no understanding of the actual elements of the crime of genocide.

Elements of the crime

The Genocide Convention establishes in Article I that the crime of genocide may take place in the context of an armed conflict, international or non-international, but also in the context of a peaceful situation. The latter is less common but still possible. The same article establishes the obligation of the contracting parties to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide.

The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law.

Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:

A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and

A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:

- Killing members of the group
- Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
- Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
- Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.

Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

[MythosMaster]

143. Bad analogy...

sorry moving on to another post.

[Jirel]

154. Your "stance" on this is purely political, not factual.

The holocaust was a real thing, and horrific, and genocide The Nazis who committed it would have said exactly the same thing (and some did) that Jews (and LGBT, and other targeted groups) were wartime casualties. Being victims of a genocide does NOT, however, give license for an oppressed group to then commit genocide themselves.

Wholesale wiping out of entire city areas where another identity group lives, and killing all within them indiscriminately, is genocide. Cutting all that group off from food, water, and medical care, regardless of age, politics, or involvement in the conflict, is genocide. Literally watching babies die of starvation and lack of medical care, and killing the sick, by refusing safe passage to places they can be fed, housed, and cared for, is genocide.

Denying Israel’s genocide of the Gazans is as morally repugnant as denying the holocaust. Rather than arguing that “it’s not that bad,” Jews and other supporters of Israel should be standing against ALL genocide, and holding the Israeli government accountable.

[TheKentuckian]

168. Your genocide is a fiction at best and an insidious lie at worst.

The audacity to start a war with rapes, mutilation, murder, and hostage taking and then cry about being settled up is sky high.

The stupidity of calling a rounding error that includes the militants genocide is so staggering that it cannot be real.

[TheCynic56]

157. Whataboutism

A lot of what about this and what about that, happening in this thread.

No group owns the term “genocide”! What is happening in Gaza is barbaric!

[SocialDemocrat61]

162. Those who bring up the Holocaust

do so to shut down the conversation.

[Cha]

164. I agree with your OP.. Mahalo!

[brettdale]

166. Agree

With the OP.

[Martin Eden]

170. 3 things regarding the rightwing Israeli coalition government:

1. Their long term objective is a Greater Israel encompassing all the land.

2. To sustain the viability of the Jewish State, the Palestinian demographic has to be reduced to the point of never coming close to a majority of the population. They need to crush all hope of a Palestinian state supplanting Israel and the terrorist organizations intent on achieving that goal.

3. In the current war, disregard for civilian casualties is obvious. The death toll since Oct 7 is approaching a 300-to-1 ratio Palestinians to Jews, and famine is taking hold.

I'm merely trying to state what I believe to be the strategy of the Israeli government. Palestinians are in the way of achieving the long term security of Greater Israel.

Is it genocide? That term does more to inflame passions and incite divisions than bring people together to collaborate on a viable solution to end the caranage and suffering. Two different peoples, apparently incompatable, want the same land. One side has much greater wealth and military capability, backed by the most powerful nation on the planet. The other side, with some outside support, has resorted to terrorism. Hamas is intent on killing or driving out all Jews "from the river to the sea." They don't have the power to commit "genocide" but it looks like they would if they could.

Painting one side or the other (encompassing all the people, most of whom just want to live and raise families) as EVIL, provides the dehumanizing framework for mass slaughter.

As an agnostic and a human being it seems to me the three Abrahamic religions which worship the monotheic God should make of this land with the holy city of Jerusalem an international center of peace and brotherhood.

Can we get any farther from that ideal?

We shall see.

[Bucky]

171. I agree that watering down the word genocide is bad

But when one's "defense" of Israel's policy in Gaza is that it's merely ethnic cleansing, then they've pretty much run out of moral high ground to stand on.

They're just killing people they don't like. They've reduced October 7th to an excuse.

[edhopper]

172. I no longer defend Israel in Gaza

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218816686
I do defend Israel's right to exist. And as a son of a family that survived the Holocaust, I am offended by the use of the term in this and see it a I described.