Crucial question: How should we fight back against the PutinGOP and Trump?

[Irish_Dem]

I think this is a core issue which needs to be discussed.

I was replying to a comment by BlueKota and decided to make it an OP as I think it is crucial question.
And with BlueKota's permission, I decided to make their question and my answer an OP to elicit more discussion.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18718656

BlueKota said: Everyone keeps quoting laws, but the Republican party has stopped obeying them. I feel the majority on the Supreme Court isn't interested in protecting the Constitution either, or they would have ruled on the stay and immunity cases by now. It seems they really are going to delay it to protect their golden idol. 


At some point the leaders on our side maybe left with no choice but to start breaking the rules too, to protect the rest of the country from these lunatics, and I hope they understand that. 

I feel like the country is in a runaway car just about to drive over a cliff and not enough is being done to stop it. We can't just sit around hoping they will play fair. 

Sorry I know there are a lot of people who think this is an over reaction, but I'm scared it isn't and I don't have any where else to voice my fears.


Some of my thoughts:

Yes everyone keeps telling us that Trump and the GOP cannot do this or that. 
And quotes the laws and rules to prove their points.

We know this is a ludicrous argument. 
Quoting the law is not the answer to the question. Trump and the GOP do not follow the laws, rules or customs. 
And the criminal justice system is either afraid to enforce the laws, 
stymied by the GOP underhanded tactics, or complicit and works for Putin too. 


So how do we fight back? We can feel like we are in a no win situation. 
If we remain passive, the Putin GOP wins, and we lose our democracy. If we use underhanded tactics we become like the GOP. 
And then Putin has won. The US is then a lawless society like Russia. 



Make no mistake, the PutinGOP is deliberately placing us in no win situations, over and over. They use brutal tactics, nasty relentless hate filled propaganda, manipulation and gaslighting of the American population. Install GOP leaders who will stoop to any illegal and dirty tactic, sinking lower and lower with impunity and no remorse.

There must be a way to play hard ball, to defeat the Putin GOP, but remain true to the US rule of law and democracy. 


We must first understand that the PutinGOP is at war with us. Funded by our enemies, 
Russia, China, Iran, Saudi, NK. They wish to be the global superpower and doing what they can to damage western democracies. The GOP has aligned with them to destroy democracy in our country. Their goal is what Putin has in Russia. Total permanent power
and access to all national financial assets. 
To do this they must install a fascist government, one that is a white, christian, male theocracy.

We must fight back, and fight back hard. 
Or lose our democracy. It is a simple choice. 

But how do we do that? 



Politics as usual is a very lame response.

I suggest that instead of feeling helpless, falling further into despair, 
allowing ourselves to be driven off the cliff, we start asking ourselves and our leaders, what is the plan? 



How do we save our democracy and rule of law? 

It is not enough to say go vote. We know that the GOP is working to take away voting rights and manipulate the election system. 

We know the fascist rot I has spread throughout our government, including the Supreme Court, the rest of the judicial system and in the US congress. The FBI, DOJ are also complicit in traitorous crimes.

So what is the plan? What do we do? How do we play hardball, save our democracy but not become criminals in the process, destroying the things we are trying to save?

[werdna]

1. The U.S.Constituion -

- devised a government with certain checks and balances as fundamental principles. In addition, it outlines methods and practices to remove people in any office for transgressions against Constitutional provisions and principles. It is my fondest hope that our liberal office holders are aware of these principles and mechanisms and once majorities are reached in Congress, will began to ply them as needed.

[Irish_Dem]

23. Yes but will anyone actually have the courage to enforce these provisions and principles?

The GOP has riled up their base to the point death threats are made against attorneys, prosecutors, and jury members.

So people are afraid to cross the GOP.

Others don't want to look partisan, so they let the criminal GOP continue with their crime spree.

[Voltaire2]

2. Framing this as a threat from foreign powers is bullshit.

The problem is not Russia China Iran etc. They are not funding the ‘PutinGOP’. The Republican Party is funded by domestic oligarchs. The threat we face is almost entirely internal, domestic, the enemy is us.

The problem is however global in scope. We are not the only liberal democracy confronted with a serious domestic fascist threat. Fascism, the 21st century version, not the goose step vile clowns from 100 years ago, is back, and across the globe it is making gains.

Understanding why this is happening is essential to understanding what to do about it, and the why is not some foreign threat.

[oldsoftie]

8. Russia & China are FEEDING the RW info that they WANT to hear. They certainly ARE a threat

Most of the time the idiots dont KNOW what they're seeing is coming from foreigners. It needs to be pointed out.
To act like foreign threats aren't a big part of this problem is to put us in even greater jeopardy. The are actively working to weaken us.

[Voltaire2]

13. The propaganda machine is almost entirely domestic.

Fox News, newsmax etc are not Russian or Chinese operations. The rightwing crap on shitter and Facebook is almost all generated by domestic operations funded by our oligarchs, not nefarious foreign entities.

[Qutzupalotl]

58. The RW crap on Xitter is boosted by Russian trolls

and some bleeds over into FB.

Without their repetition of the message, people would not judge the framing to be as widespread as they do, and would be less likely to assent to a minority opinion. But when the message becomes common, they do. Also, it wears down opposition to be bombarded by negative reactions, which are boosted by the same actors with Musk's blessings.

So we have both domestic and foreign threats, but only one of those is remotely within our power to change, short of sabotaging the Internet Research Agency.

[Voltaire2]

59. Sure, do you think only foreign governments

fund bot farms?

[Qutzupalotl]

61. Russia's is by far the largest and most influential.

Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, and North Korea are getting in the game.

Domestically, we have more of a media problem and a gullibility problem.

I have not heard about domestic troll farms, but I'd welcome any links or referrals.

[oldsoftie]

65. I agree. And russia is repeating lies about UKR that are turning up in Congress

I see them repeated every day on FB & X

[oldsoftie]

63. You need to listen to Fiona Hill's interview on CBS

She says foreign influence is a BIG problem.

[Voltaire2]

19. Russia is a military menace.

And Russian interference in domestic politics does exist. China is primarily a problem for our oligarchs as it represents a threat to their domination of the global economy.

I didn’t say these countries do not represent any threat. What they aren’t is the source of funding of the Republican Party, in control of the Republican Party, or a major source of propaganda for the Republican Party. All of that is domestic. It is the vastly wealthy oligarchs who fund the Republican Party and control the media that generates the propaganda.

The threat we face is primarily domestic not foreign.

[oldsoftie]

66. Certainly not the FUNDING source, no. But disinfo gets voters too

Although it wouldnt surprise me a bit if we found some of their money making its way into the GOP coffers

[RandomNumbers]

15. I hold out hope that at least some of the much-maligned "Boomer" generation

- that is, those who currently don't want to support Democrats (there are plenty of Boomers already supporting Dems, just not enough) -

will remember their history and the value of our European alliance.

Kind of like Social Security is a third rail, so should be the idea of leaving NATO.

Sure there are some morons in every generation, but I would expect it to be more intuitive with the Boomers that it is a really, really bad idea to leave NATO. And that oh by the way, it spits on the veterans who have served and fought to preserve our alliances, to suddenly turn toward Putin.

Anyway I think in media that is consumed by elders, it is very important to make sure they are aware of the implications for NATO - and our military - if Trump manages to win in November.

[Voltaire2]

16. It is one of the ironies of fascism-21

That it’s mythical glorious past that it proposes to recreate as our future is the postwar 1950’s made possible by the defeat of 20th century fascism.

[Kid Berwyn]

40. True. However KGB tilts the playing field.

Money isn’t the only weapon in politics.

Troll Farms is one way to plant disinformation and to sow discord.

Devising industrial strength nicknames, say “Low Energy,” are another.

Then there’s the wet work.

[Voltaire2]

45. Technically the KGB doesn't exist

But sure, russian intelligence services are meddling with domestic politics. I'm certainly not denying that. However my point is that by far the 'meddling' that matters, the meddling that we need to counter, is the meddling from the vastly rich domestic shitheads.

Again, framing the problem, as the op does, as a republican party controlled and funded by an odd list of foreign governments, is misguided. This is overwhelmingly a domestic problem.

[elleng]

78. Normally it WOULD be bull shit, but these are NOT normal times,

repug party has been taken over by those under the 'wing' of Russia. ACKNOWLEGE it.

[Voltaire2]

81. I don't take directives. Even in CAPS!!!

The fascist Republican Party has common ground with other fascist parties around the world.

They support Putin largely because they agree with his policies. Are some of them compromised by Russian intelligence services? Probably, but that hardly matters.

The op claimed that the GOP is funded by Russia Iran China North Korea and Saudi Arabia. It isn’t. That claim is nonsense. The funding is from our oligarchs, from the Kochs, from the Mercers, from a long list of fascist domestic billionaires. This is not a foreign threat it is a domestic threat. That is far worse.

[elleng]

83. and the question remains: How should we fight back?

[Voltaire2]

85. well I agree that is the question.

I only have wrong answers

[bucolic_frolic]

3. There is no plan

There is no plan. As with all entrenched bureaucracies, the powers that be assume all will be as usual, that if they compromise enough and file enough lawsuits that reason will reign. Does it sound like the Kerensky government? Crane Brinton's Anatomy of Revolution addresses every last nuance. We are not facing an insurrection. An insurrection is merely the violent acts aimed at the national government led by a cadre of revolutionaries. We face a cultural rebellion, a revolution.

America was built and has relied upon abundant natural resources on a virgin continent, or at least virgin to European settlers. Like rats in a maze when the resources get scarce or stretched, conflict emerges.

I think we, meaning our Democratic Party, need to turn our attention to the judicial system. We need to make noise, so judges and the public hear. What % of voters are aware of the 2025 project? 8% maybe?

I think we can defeat Trump, but another coup plot looms, let's not kid ourselves. If Trump's health catches up with him, Haley is a problem, if only because it will put more pressure on the issue of age.

We need to re-energize the focus on Dobbs and women's rights. This is a 10 alarm fire. The Federal government must respond to any hint of election interference, and sadly put down harshly any rebellion. Douglas MacArthur style. Hopefully terrorists are being monitored. I don't like Wray but he's been silent and looks worried and over-worked. I take that to be a good sign.

We turn to Machiavelli to renew our minds as to how a nation State defends itself and its interests. Consumerism has made us go soft, just like naysayers said it would. Americans are more concerned with Amazon and the Dollar stores than with defending their lifestyle and democracy. Won't local government do it? Imagine a draft today.

This undermining is what we did in Eastern Europe post WWII.

[Voltaire2]

9. The Democratic Party is trapped into

a defense of the status quo. The fascists over in the Republican Party are tapping into the enormous anxiety and discontent with a system that is clearly not working for many people while we are stuck offering more of the same.

[oldsoftie]

12. To equate Haley with Trump is a big mistake

And it just feeds the RW narrative that "Democrats are only against trump because he's in front"
I've heard it many times "Dont worry, if Haley was the candidate they'd be after her just like they are Trump". When that is absolutely NOT the case. They try to weaken the case against Trump by making it "just politics". As another DUer said a couple months ago, at least with Haley I'm pretty sure we'd have a 2028 election. Not so sure with Trump. I dont see Haley talking down our allies or NATO. Of course we differ on policy. But she's NOT a cultist & the differences need to be highlighted instead of lumping them ALL in the same pile of shit that is Trump

[Irish_Dem]

28. Olddoftie, it is now going to be very tempting for any GOP leader to commit crimes.

And to install a fascist agenda.

They will be subjected to very strong pressure to install a white christian male theocracy.
And to align with the global autocratic bloc.

They will be offered huge amounts of power and cash. Or threatened.

Normal people would be tempted to succumb to such persuasion.

But the GOP leaders are not normal. They play fast and loose with the truth, rules and morality.
So they are already inclined to wrong doing to obtain cash and power.

[Voltaire2]

47. The entire party has shifted to fascism.

Haley included. The handful of leaders who aren't on board have generally either retired or been purged.

[oldsoftie]

62. I disagree. I live smack in the middle of a deep red area. There are different types.

My county will vote for Trump easily. And I know & deal with many of trump voters. And I know the difference between the far right whackos and the people who simply dont like the policies of Democrats.
IMO, Joe Biden is going at it the right way; calling out the "MAGA wing" as a radical part of the GOP
If you lump EVERY GOP voter in with the trumpers you're just going to push them further away. Liz Cheney is a republican. I doubt she votes for Trump. I have a hard time seeing Brian Kemp & Brad Raffensberger voting for trump either. But they're republicans
I do know trump voters who will NOT vote for him this time. But you dont want to insult them either.
The whackos are the "Q" believers

[Voltaire2]

76. Sorry I thought we were discussing political leaders

like Trump and Haley. My comment was not about republican voters, most of whom are just participating in what is basically a sporting event, a participatory entertainment spectacle. They vote for their team.

[oldsoftie]

86. Oh ok. Well, I still dont equate trump & Haley. Trump is a tumor.

I believe Haley would be a Bush or Reagan and not be a total whacko who would bend over for our adversaries. Sure, WE wouldnt agree with most of her platform, but I think it would be back to "business as usual" as opposed to barbarians at the gate. The MAGAts would go back under their rocks after seeing that all these "plans" never happened. At least thats what I would hope
To add; I dont know if you're aware of the depths of insanity of these theories that the FAR out MAGA wing believe. Its like its 1824 the shit they believe. If you do Facebook, go look up the Patriot Princess page & just see what kind of crazy is out there. I try to understand how people can believe this shit but the only thing that makes sense is ITS A CULT

[Voltaire2]

87. Another Reagan is not the flex you think it is.

[oldsoftie]

88. Certainly better than TRUMP. by any measure.

Trump is a threat to all of the free world not just the US

[Voltaire2]

100. Reagan was an unmitigated disaster

and unlike Trump he was effective at getting things done. Trump’s only major accomplishment was getting elected so he could put more fascist theocrats on the court.

[Irish_Dem]

27. Bucolic, you raise many good points.

Yes of course, Trump is not the main issue, he is just one puppet and a symptom.

And yes of course another coup is most likely, given the immense success of what has happened so far. Drunk with power, a taste for having it permanently, will lead to further attempts to fascism.

And as you mention, the 2025 Project is the goal. To destroy democracy, the federal government and install a small group of fascist leaders and oligarchs.

Yes I agree, the American judiciary legislates from the bench, installing their right wing theocracy and fascism. And handling the treasonous members of society with kid gloves. This must be addressed.

And yes any election interference must be dealt with vigorously.

Yes I hope the message gets out about women's rights. Surely young women do not want to live in a GOP dystopia where
they are brood mares and second class citizens.

But yes, have we become so complacent as a society, we will take whatever the dictators dish out?
The idea of civic duty, is it just a quaint old fashioned notion?

[Walleye]

4. Constant loud ridicule of the orange clown, and stop fighting among ourselves, Democrats

[Basic LA]

7. Ridicule him AND his lynch-mob followers. .

Mercilessly mock them as stereotypical Hee Haw rubes. And who would want mean-sprited rubes to run the country?

[Walleye]

10. Yes, we don't need to try to be civil with these people anymore. They just pounce on that as a weakness

When they criticize Biden for being “week” they mean he’s a kind man. Kind of men don’t belong in their party and,they think, in America

[orangecrush]

101. "Hee Haw Rubes!?"

I lived in a red rural area for the last 8 years.

It is this kind of chauvinistic attitude that drove them to Trump in the first place.

[Basic LA]

104. How about this then.

We run add campaigns that show MTG, Comer Fudd, Matt Gaetz, et al, in short clips as they call us every name in the book: Satanic pedophile Marxist Fascists, etc. Also closeups of the Jan 6 "gentlemen" as they storm the Capitol, including the guy with the painted face & buffalo hat. All this while a voice-over describes them as the academic urbane gracious future leaders of this great nation that we can expect under Trump.
Just spitballing here. We need a plan.

[orangecrush]

106. There are Democrats

In rural areas who do not appreciate being lumped in with MAGATs.

[Basic LA]

109. Ah, so mockery is out. Let's see.

OK, how's this, we go back to the traditional dialectic of how we benefit & champion working people: employees & the self-employed. While the other side always backs the employers & corporate oppressors.
A little help here would be good. Maybe bribery would work!

[orangecrush]

110. It's easy

Run an ad starting out with Trump denying COVID severity, touting quack cures, followed by a clip of a news report of the number of COVID deaths during his term, followed by actual footage of COVID patients with blue extremities, followed by clip of actual patient upside down on respirator.

No need to stick to the usual schtick, in this case.

[Basic LA]

111. I like it.

Let's run it up the flagpole. Hope the campaign has this in the works.

[orangecrush]

112. There's a lot of material

To work with.

[Irish_Dem]

30. Yes good points.

Much of the fighting amongst ourselves is the result of Russian and Chinese propaganda desgined to polarize our party.
It has been a very clever and successful ploy to divide our party.

We need to get stronger and more aware so we don't take the bait.

Yes we should ridicule Trump, but he is only one puppet.
There will be more to come.

[Walleye]

31. Directions to the doing this since the Cold War. That find every chink in our armor and work it open

Authoritarian governments love nothing more than using democracy fallibilities against us. Sort of like Donald Trump refuses to obey the laws, and we have to. USSR used to show every possible incident of our racial strife in this country on their TV. They have been doing this for my entire life

[Irish_Dem]

33. Yes good points.

Oh yes it is so evident that the Russians use every US weakness to harm us.
They exaggerate and use any opening to try to destroy us.

Yes the Russians have been doing this for a long time.

The difference is that now Putin's puppets are deeply embedded across the US government and are helping Putin.

So our own leaders are aiding and abetting the fascist takeover.

[Sky Jewels]

49. The oligarchy-run media largely protects Trump though.

He is clearly in a state of dementia, but that storyline gets willfully buried.

[Think. Again.]

5. We don't want to break existing law...

...but we could create new law that could bring this to an end.

Of course we would have to be careful not to create law that could just be abused by anyone who wants to continue carrying out the destruction of our Democracy, so it would have to be carefully worded.

Keep in mind that the beauty of our Democracy is that it does allow for challenges, but limits must be set when those challenges are directed at the Democracy itself.

As our Democracy is facing an literal existential crisis, perhaps it's time to face the fact that our founding fathers lived in a very different world and some serious adjustments to the wording, but not the intent, of the Constitution may be appropriate. Basically a translation to modern language that clarifies and simplifies the boundaries that Americans, elected or not, must abide by.

Of course, this all must be done within the confines of the existing wording and somehow exclude the input of Americans who have malicoius, actually anti-American intent (perhaps this is where clarification of insurrection, treason, etc, to include mere intent would come in) and safeguards would also have to be updated to reduce the risk of it being reworded yet again under an insurrectionist's or fascist's rule (if we can't avoid that again).

We have reached the point where we must make decisions that go beyond the positive intent of the Constitution and that take into account some very negative realities. As hard as it is to accept, we must now face that there are limits to the freedoms we enjoy if those freedoms cause us self-harm. We must impose and codify a certain level of self-discipline upon ourselves.

And I think I might be disgusted with myself for writing all that.

[Irish_Dem]

32. Trump and the GOP have been a one man audit of the entire US government and democratic system.

And we flunked the audit. At least so far.

Yes I think there must be some changes made.
As you say however any changes made will be used by the sociopaths in the GOP against us.
So it must be carefully done.

Yes I agree, since the GOP keeps using the US constitution as an excuse to install a fascist theocracy,
and to allow the mass murder of American citizens on their own soil, it is time to take a hard look at the constitution.

If people have so much freedom they can try to overthrow our government with no consequences, then is this
the kind of freedom we want in the US?

I don't think you should be disgusted with yourself. You are raising good points.
These are questions we must ask. We are facing some very ugly realities and it is time for frank dialogue.

[yardwork]

36. It's not possible to change the wording of the Constitution without starting over.

The Republicans would love the opportunity to throw out the Constitution and start over. Lots of states are dominated by Republicans so it's dangerously possible that we could lose the Bill of Rights and other crucial amendments.

I'm curious if you are from another country? Most Americans are aware that there's no way to tweak the language of the U.S. Constitution. It can be amended with new sections - a very lengthy and rigorous process - and it can be discarded. Those are the two options.

[Think. Again.]

60. I'm not sure why you feel...

...that updating the obsolete language of the Constitution is an impossibility.

As we know from just the disasterous mis-interpretation of the 2 amendment, out-of-use syntax and grammar can be manipulated to change the original intent of the words as written, and although we do rely on Constitutional scholars to interpret original concepts, we do not ever ask historical language experts to clarify intent.

Yes, it's a dangerous endeavour to open the Constitution to be translated to contemporary language, but it is obviously dangerous to allow the mis-interpretations to continue also.

[limbicnuminousity]

70. It's opening Pandora's box.

Strict constitutionalists in the courts give reason to consider the possibility at some point. 18th century language and concepts don't always translate well in the 21st century. But man, what a box of worms. The thought of someone like MTG having a role is nauseating.

[Think. Again.]

73. I agree, that's my big fear...

....but man, the way it is now is just too vulnerable to deliberate misinterpretation.

Perhaps a draft could be started and re-hashed, over and over, for years, until everyone feels safe with it before it's instituted not as a replacement but as an agreed upon contemporary reading of it.

[yardwork]

74. Again, you don't seem to understand how U.S. politics works.

[Think. Again.]

75. Of course I do.

[yardwork]

77. Ok. What do you suggest as a first step?

[Think. Again.]

79. If we start with steps suggested by...

....random people on internet discussion boards (like myself), instead of with political, constitutional, and linguistic scholars and experts, we should probably just not do it.

[oldsoftie]

6. 1 thing; we need to highlight the Russia/China online disinfo being spread

Point out the actual topics & SHOW where they're LIES. Point out that following these "fake facts" makes YOU part of their plan to weaken the US. Point out that Putin wants a weaker US which makes our ECONOMY weaker.
These people are short-sighted; they dont understand that the threat of Putin isnt just to UKR, its to our ECONOMY. Same with China; they're a threat to our ECONOMY not just our power.
Ask them, are we safer in a world where russia & china are stronger than the US? Then WHY are you helping them weaken us?

Another point; highlight the similarities of the GOP & the Taliban. You have to be careful with this though so as not to insult religion as a whole. I know some here see religion as a weakness, but the majority of the US are people of some kind of faith. Writing all of them off is a mistake. But we HAVE to show how the extremism hurts the country & how it can eventually target things important to YOU

Of course, continue to thoroughly point out the constant LIES trump spews. Not just things that can be a difference of opinion, things that are point-blank; the stock market is at a record, the GOP is blocking border help, the GOP has radical members who have NEVER passed a single bill (I'm looking at you Jim Jordan), etc etc

Then cover the ridiculous conspiracies that so many believe; JFK jr is alive, GITMO is executing people, Biden is an actor; ALL that crazy shit. SHOW how crazy it is

[Walleye]

11. Embryos are babies? That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard

[oldsoftie]

14. Huh? Cant see where I mentioned that but OK.

[Irish_Dem]

35. Yes OS, exactly we must fight back on Russian and Chinese propaganda.

I think this would be a very critical part of a plan.

Can we persuade the media to start doing its job, and question the origins and veracity of the propaganda?

Yes do the American people understand that aiding China and Russia undermines our national security?
That China and Russia wish to damage our country and democracy?
They must do this to achieve their goal of global superpower status.

Can we persuade the media to print the truth and reality about our country, our economy, etc.

Or has the media become just the propaganda arm of the PutinGOP?

[jmbar2]

17. The heavy-lifting needs to come from noncultish Christians

Trump is just the flawed vehicle for cult Christians to take power. They will throw him under the bus once they get in the door because he is an embarrassment.

The cult christians need skilled deprogramming messages from those who speak their language, know their belief systems and can show them the flaws.

A number of modern theologians are writing about the flaws in their beliefs, but the message is not reaching them. We need a full court media press from Christians who recognize the dangers of this movement and can message effectively to the cult members.

Rob Reiner has given them space to start, but it needs to be constant, and repeated over and over to make inroads.

Outsiders may be able to ask effective questions if we understand the underlying belief structures.

Here is an interesting read from a modern scholar:
Theonomy is Not the Solution
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/theonomy/

[Irish_Dem]

37. Yes non cult Christians need to speak out.

Yes and even non christians can point out the weakness of "God's laws" taking the place of secular rule of law.

[Buckeyeblue]

18. What about eliminating Putin?

I know that we would rather the Russians take this action. Putin is a direct threat to all of Europe. But really he is a worldwide threat. His actions in Ukraine have been war crimes. He threatens nuclear war all the time. I know we worry about who would take over but it would probably be better for the foreseeable future.

[Irish_Dem]

38. Yes but the person who replaces him may act the same way.

And getting rid of Putin doesn't solve the China, Saudi, Iran and NK problem.

But I agree, a world without Putin would be a better world.

[bdamomma]

93. In

regards to Putin, I'm sure that there are other players who are watching his every move. Ukraine must get those funds to protect their democracy, or Putin will continue to spread his venom throughout Europe.

Regarding our media, we need to be more vocal about the unfair coverage of the misinformation and disinformation being reported or not reported. Propaganda is rotting peoples' brains, that's a given.

I know that there are more insightful DU'ers here who are more in tune with the events that are enfolding, and we all need to know the risks. I thank each DU'er for posting very valid questions and answers.

[Septua]

20. It is not enough to say go vote.

But the candidate with the most popular votes has the best chance of winning the 270 electoral votes. Biden will win the popular vote but as is always the case, will he win enough swing states to get the 270? It's way too early to forecast or predict the answer to that question.

And as always, some people are thinking their emotions rather than their common sense. Trump's 33% diehard supporters believe whatever Trump says, so forget them. Biden has to win over some of the remaining 66%.

So far as opinions, I believe Trump has lost some popularity within the crowd who formerly thought he could "save America." The anti-abortion sentiment will not get him any votes, the authoritarian suggestions will not favor his vote count and the election denial claims have lost some credibility. The clown show in the House is not helping any GOP candidate. And if Trump ever gets in a courtroom and is convicted, he'll lose votes.

Biden and the Democrats have 8 months to do whatever they are going to do, to counter the Trump movement. But at the end of the day, it will be voter turnout, by the voters who know which way to vote, that saves America.

[Irish_Dem]

39. Yes it is up to We The People.

That is the bottom line.

Do Americans have the wisdom, courage and sense of civic duty to do the right thing?
Or will they succumb to lies and propaganda and vote in a fascist government?

Have we become a too ignorant and complacent society to stand up for democracy?

We don't know the answer to that question yet.

[Oopsie Daisy]

21. " It is not enough to say go vote. " True. What can we do about those who say "vote for Uncommited"

>>
It is not enough to say go vote.
True. What can we do about those who say "vote for Uncommited" because this cynical ploy only softens support for Biden. The "uncommitted" voters now see themselves as "uncommitted" and will likely not bother to turn out for the General Election to support Biden. They won't vote for Trump either, but mathematically-speaking this type of inaction of "silent protest" only serves to benefit Trump.

[mopinko]

22. we need to end citizens united.

that’s it.

[Demsrule86]

26. That is not happening with our current SCOTUS...work the election.

[Irish_Dem]

42. SCOTUS sold out their country.

[Irish_Dem]

41. Yes. The US government and democracy were sold to the highest bidder.

[BootinUp]

24. The plan is to hold the Democratic/Biden coalition together.

Follow Biden and his campaigns lead.

[Irish_Dem]

43. I am not talking about just a plan to win an election.

I am taking about a plan to defeat the hostile takeover of our country.

[BootinUp]

52. I think fighting or just not falling for misinformation or disinformation especially

for people who use social media is a key part of the battle. The stuff does more damage than people realize. And people should think twice or three times before spreading it, anywhere.

Peace.

[Irish_Dem]

53. Yes I very much agree.

Relentless propaganda has paid off big for the GOP, China, and Russia.

How do we fight it? How do we inoculate the American people from falling for dangerous lies?

[BootinUp]

54. I might post some more thoughts on that after break-fast

its a touchy subject for some.

[Demsrule86]

25. Vote Vote Vote...work the elections call send postcards or visit.

But voting is a must.

[Timeflyer]

29. Sounds lame, but getting involved with local Democratic party, be active, loud and proud with other Dems

keeps despair at bay. After November? Celebrate, or join the Resistance.

[Irish_Dem]

69. I think grass root activism is important.

Yes work with like minded individuals who are interested in preserving democracy.

[limbicnuminousity]

34. There is no plan.

We're playing wait and see apparently in hopes that a positive outcome in November will erase long-standing problems in the country. Unfortunately, Trump is only a symptom of the disease and not the disease itself. What we need, imo, is a plan for dealing with the 30% of the country that is willing to support a rapist who most likely sold (or gave away, trying to earn brownie points) classified information to foreign agents.

This is the same 30% that wants to ban books, outlaw gender-related healthcare, force rape victims to bear children of rape or incest, end democracy, establish firing squads across the Rio Grande, eliminate public education, criminalize being brown or black, reveres the KKK and quotes Hitler.

I suppose a firing squad is out of the question.

[Irish_Dem]

46. I was afraid there is no plan.

And sticking our heads in the sand will not make the problem go away.

Yes Trump is just a symptom, there will be more like him.

I would be happy if some of the member of congress treason would at least be investigated.

[limbicnuminousity]

55. Investigating members of congress

may be one avenue for bringing about a peaceful resolution to tensions within the country. We've seen quite a few Jan 6 rioters taken to account but those were in large part disposable troops.

Televised trials charging a few of the congressional leaders responsible for inspiring and/or enabling Jan 6 might do a world of good for the country. Citizens can only be more motivated to engage in shenanigans when they see their leaders getting away with it. Hold a few politicos accountable -- perhaps that alone would tone down some of the excess political balderdash.

If they were put on trial for treason though, would that occur before Congress or the Supreme Court? Neither option looks particularly promising at the moment.

[Irish_Dem]

68. I agree, the treasonous members of congress must be held to account.

But we cannot keep blaming the SC for our failure to act.

Even if the corrupt SC does the wrong thing, we can still do the right thing and at least investigate
and prosecute the traitorous members of congress.

[dlk]

44. Republicans play dirty

They’ve thrown away the rulebook. As for ways to fight back, governor Newsom is an excellent example. He doesn’t mince words.

[Irish_Dem]

48. Yes he is great.

Smart, courageous, speaking out.

We need more like him.

[dlk]

50. Yes, we need more like him, especially now

We can’t count on the press to help save our democracy.

[Irish_Dem]

51. The media no longer works for the American people.

They work for other interests, none of them good.

[Sky Jewels]

56. Another aspect: We need Democratic leaders to stop creating self- inflicted wounds.

Here is an example. Biden should have appointed a fighter for justice to be AG. Instead he chose Milquetoast Merrick, who sat on his hands in the wake of a literal coup d'état attempt. Biden should have cleaned house as much as possible in federal agencies, getting rid of Trump appointees like fucking Christopher Wray and DeJoy and many others. We need our elected officials to FIGHT for us and to save what is left of democracy. Here's another example. Dick Durbin won't jettison the stupid blue slip policy, so we don't get our people confirmed to the judiciary in the numbers we need. It's very disheartening when some major political figures from your own party are not fighting the good fight in some key areas.

[Irish_Dem]

67. Exactly. That is why we must ask our leadership WHAT IS THE PLAN?

Because many of us are not seeing one.

We know the PutinGOP has a rock solid plan.
And they are working it every day.

[bdamomma]

94. You know,

I think we should call our Senators with exactly that question What's the plan??? I would like to know what Senator Whitehouse would say???

[Irish_Dem]

95. Yes exactly.

If he says get out the vote, tell him that we need more than that.
The Putin GOP has a strong and diabolical plan to steal our democracy.

They already installed Trump once into the WH.

Working to damage the voting and electoral system.

Have anti-democracy treasonous puppets throughout the US government.
Who are working with Russia to overthrow our democracy.

Appointed GOP judges are legislating from the bench, installing a fascist government
with women as second class citizens.
Voting isn't going to help that.

[FHRRK]

57. It really isn't that hard

Dems constantly get in their own way.

Last week I was chastised for calling Melania T. a whore. The immediate misogynistic response. Funny, someone calls TSF a dick or a prick, no offense taken. TSF is a prick, and a whore on the take from Russia. Melania is a Russian agent who has renegotiated her prenup mutual times. She performs acts she obviously finds offensive for money. Melania is a _____.
So as I sit around with a handful of tRump supporters and a couple fence sitters, should I dance around it or use the historically correct term to call her out. (As you ponder the question please recall the Al Franken fiasco, the Dems lost a seat due to some high profile people not being able to STFU)

Look at all of the posts basically defending trumps performance in SC. Are you fucking kidding me?!!!!

The guy can’t pull away cleanly and we are going to argue if he is under performing? WTF! If you aren’t comfortable slinging a little mud then don’t compound things by defending the enemy!

Again, it is the type of Purety Patrol that drives people away from Dems. A picture of Franken pretending to grab boobies that are covered by a flak jacket, followed by some barely known comedian complaining about him pinching side fat ended up costing us a critical Senate Seat!

One thing most of us learn during our career, sometimes you have ZERO to say in meetings, if you don’t have a solution, and someone else is proposing a solution, will take on the work, then the correct path is to sit back, not to critique. Because I guarantee you one thing about those people who can’t help from commenting and critiquing, they think they are the smartest mother fucker in the room. And usually they are just partially correct in their assessment

[Irish_Dem]

64. But don't get sidetracked by things that are not high on the list of priorities.

Every group has its own norms and mores. Every forum I have ever been on has idiosyncratic rules.
Every family and every nationality has unique ways about them.

You have to look at the sum total of what a person or group of people bring to the table.

If people are deeply offended by minor flaws, to the point they run to embrace pure evil instead.
Shame on them.

And even what is considered to be a flaw often has a grain of truth to it.

I think the smartest person in the room can see the big picture and not get dragged into minor details.
Especially when it is a fight for our lives.

[Doc Sportello]

71. Great questions Irish Dem

And ones I don't have an answer for either. I too think about this a lot in large part because the ones who want to destroy democracy here are imbued with a religious fervor - at least THEY think their religion is on the side of good versus evil. They live in a bubble of RW media, lack of critical thinking skills clouded by religion, and every person in their circle who thinks the same way.

Many on here have sugggested splitting the country into Civil War boundaries but as much as I wish it was that easy, it's not. Multi-generational families live in the red states with businesses, jobs, retirements, mortgages and other financial and personal ties to those states. Are they all supposed to pick up and leave or suffer in an apartheid state right on our border? Many other issues make that "solution" impossible, although the MAGAts seem to be doing their best to make the blue staters say, "go, please."

Several on this thread have offered using the system (courts, elections, etc.) and you and I agree that we definitely have to keep doing that until all avenues are exhausted. But, and I think this is one of your basic questions (at least it is for me) what do we do with tens of millions of people, from the MAGAt "top officials" - seems funny to call them that - down to their dumbest or most violent foot soldiers who don't believe in democracy, justice, our legal system (unless it does their bidding) or even basic facts? I don't know, and so far nobody else seems to either.

[Irish_Dem]

72. At least we are asking questions.

Asking our leaders to make plans and come up with solutions.

That is the first step. Facing reality and making a plan.

It is a complicated situation with many moving parts.

Yes the courts are part of the solution.

What do we do about the brainwashed cult members who adore a ruthless sociopath?
The research shows that with every truth bomb about their leader, some of the cult will peel off, others may double or triple down. But the more you can get the truth out to the public, the more you have cult members peel away.

What do we do about the relentless brutal GOP/Russia/China propaganda?
How do we counteract that. Also with the truth. But it has to be disseminated by the press.
Which brings us to another problem. The US media does not seem to work for the American people.
Who funds them to report lies?

Yes the religious cult is dangerous. People who believe they are acting in God's name will do anything to force
people to adhere to their belief system. It is scary.

Putin's greatest wish is to balkanize the US. Split it into nation states, like the USSR broke up.

[bdamomma]

102. I'm shaking my head

Yes, about Putin trying to break up the US just like we did to them. That is why he is trying his damnest to make Russia great again, his way of killing people, his political opponents and invading other countries. But he is a scared little man too, he is afraid of his own people, I only wish they would rise up too (not like they haven't tried). We may need to do it too.

[Irish_Dem]

103. Yes Putin wants to be a global superpower and star.

He wants to be the great and grand Mother Russia again.

Yes he will do whatever it takes to achieve his goal.
Kill and destroy anything in his way.

Yes we can see his fear in how many people he has to kill so frequently.

And how he has to leave his calling card at the crime scenes, he has people killed
with his signature styles. This is to send a clear message to the world and instill
terror and fear in everyone.

This is because he is afraid of losing his power and wealth.

Right it would be nice if Russia would rise up against him.
But we cannot even get Americans to rise up against Putin's puppets here in the US.

[Dan]

80. Always thought, that we should be realistic and

Recognize that the GOP of today is a Fifth Column of Russia. And just start to voice it - the truth hurts and people are concerned about offending friends and family.

[Irish_Dem]

90. Yes. I have been saying the same. The US is turning into a Russian colony.

Owned by billionaires and our enemies.

The GOP sold out their country to the highest bidder.

[Dan]

82. Extreme view.... Biden should activate the

Insurrection Act - and just start rounding them up - pretty much what Trump and the GOP plan to do to the Democrats if they regain power.

We are heading for the second Civil War for the soul of the nation.

[Irish_Dem]

91. When brainstorming, all options are on the table for consideration.

I don't think we are heading for battle, we are already in it.
The GOP/China/ Russia are at war with us whether we admit it or not.

Yes we are in a battle for the soul of our nation.
Our democracy and rule of law are at stake.
And our values as a people.

Once we face this reality, we are making progress.

[Lunabell]

84. Somehow, somebody needs to assasinate putin.

Game over.

[WarGamer]

89. Win elections?

[Irish_Dem]

92. This is no longer a simple solution WG.

The GOP is tampering with the voting and electoral systems.
The GOP is ratfucking us during the campaign.
The GOP refuses to accept legitimate election results.

The US Supreme Court is corrupt and will rule in the GOP favor.

Even when we win elections, corrupt judges legislate from the bench
and make women second class citizens and allow GOP criminals to get away with crimes.
And turn the US into a theocracy.

The PutinGOP forces relentless brutal propaganda on the American people
to the point they idolize corrupt criminal leaders who have sold us out to Russia.

The GOP/Russia/China are waging war against us.
Voting alone is not going to cut it any longer.

This is work for a war gamer.

[WarGamer]

108. I'm not a fan of concentration camps and re-education centers...

And even a lesser fan of using force for political ends...

So I'm not quite sure where you're going.

If the GOP is "gaming the system" and they certainly are...

Then we must also "color between the lines" of legality.

They restrict voting rights because they have that legal power layed out in their State Constitutions...

They release fake stories in the news... that's been going on for as long as there have bee elections... and foreign interference is just as old.

Sometimes when reading Roman history... it's stunning how politically, nothing has really changed... except the "News Reader" in the Forum is now Fox News... and the folks drawing graffiti on the buildings are todays Twitter and youtube content creators.

I mean seriously... a Trump meme on Twitter is no different than graffiti of Marc Antony painted on a wall wearing womens clothing in 40BC

[betsuni]

96. Americans should grow up, stop thinking anyone or anything's going to save them like in movies.

[Irish_Dem]

97. Making Americans feel helpless and powerless is part of the Russian GOP plan

It is common in fascist governments to instill this complacent helplessness in the populace.
Where they feel nothing can be done.

But you do have a good point. There needs to be more maturity, ability to face reality.

Many Americans seem to have lost their sense of civic duty.
They refuse to be good citizens and elect reputable, competent leaders.

Also they have lost their moral core. To adore a known criminal and traitor.
And advocate the overthrow of the US government with the help of Russia and other enemies.

Greatest moral collapse in US history.
Greatest abdication of civic duty as well.

So yes, we have many Americans functioning like children.

And that would also include your point, many assuming someone will rescue them, miraculously
democracy will survive this onslaught.

[betsuni]

98. "Making" them feel helpless and powerless -- they want to feel that way.

[Irish_Dem]

99. There is something called "learned helplessness."

Where abusers beat down their victims so long and so hard, the victim truly feels helpless.
This happens in Russia, China, Saudi, Iran.

And then there is brainwashing, for example people are taught to believe that various groups
are second class citizens.

But yes you may be talking about cult members who will literally go off a cliff for their adored leader.

What is their individual psychopathology that makes them susceptible to this kind of behavior?
Why do they suspend good judgement and logical reason to blindly follow someone who is a ruthless criminal?

The clever con artist cult leader is able to tap into various unmet needs and or pathological hatreds in his victims.

[LiberalFighter]

105. There is no single answer.

First, point out all of Trump's weaknesses. That is the indictments against him. Sexually assaulting women as proven by E Jean Carroll. The conviction of fraud he committed in NY. His continuous lies starting with the size of his townhouse. Refusing to turn over the classified documents.

Tie the Russian government (Putin) to Trump and the Republican Party.

Remind people that the Republican Party is no longer the party of law and order. It is no longer the party of freedom. It has also been taken over by the religous nuts.

Trump and the Republican Party want women to be controlled by men and the religious nuts. That is that women should be pregnant and be forced to have children.

And much more.

[Irish_Dem]

107. Yes there is no single simple answer.

To fight the PutinGOP, the plan will have to be multifaceted.

Yes fighting the disinformation and propaganda is critical, you are making salient points.