Because I can't stand it any more

[Stinky The Clown]

Are we seeing genocide in Gaza?

Before you say it, I fully support Israel in its desire to wipe out Hamas. The organization are terrorists, criminals, and by their own words genociders with respect to Jews. I have been very reluctant to post here on DU what my feelings are, knowing our community is engaged passionately in the issue but with differing views. I respect all views.

These are mine.

The tactics of Netanyahu are, in my view, also genocidal. Under his orders, the forces he controls have herded Gazans into an ever smaller area that they now say they will commence bombing. They continue to withheld food, water, medical support, and shelter from Gazans. These seem very much genocidal actions.

I believe we need to find the right balance to support Israel while breaking with Netanyahu. We need to do this immediately if not sooner.

30,000 dead Palestinians is just plain inexcusable. I believe it constitutes genocide.

I blame Netanyahu.

I could go on much longer but think this encapsulates it well.

[Walleye]

1. It seems the parliament or the people in Israel support Netanyahu. What do we do about that?

[TheKentuckian]

5. I think support for Netanyahu is shallow

Support for the war is unsurprisingly another matter.

Until there is some real addressing of the security issues, the attacks cease, and the hostages liberated I wouldn't expect much different no matter who replaces Netanyahu.

[Think. Again.]

7. That's THE very good question...

...what exactly does the majority of Israeli citizens think about netanyahu's actions in Gaza?

I know you said "It seems...", but what is the actual sentiment there?

[flashman13]

30. Cut off the money!

[Ferrets are Cool]

2. Short answer yes.

What else can it be when you are murdering women and children with abandon.

[marble falls]

3. Very difficult to understand how some of us can ignore this.

[Voltaire2]

4. I reject any organization that murders civilians.

And for the Gaza crisis that means Hamas and their associated organizations and the Israeli government. This really is not a difficult choice.

[scipan]

6. Going by the UN Genocide Convention:

In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.[1][2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

My sympathies are mostly with Israel. However, I think they are getting close to satisfying the 3rd one, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group. I don't think they have quite crossed the line yet.

A couple of the others if loosely interpreted seem to me what happens in a war, which Israel did and had every right to declare.

[Lonestarblue]

10. Israel has already committed the first three, and the definition calls for any one, not all five.

I am neither pro Israel nor pro Palestinians—I am pro both of them and believe that both deserve states where they can live in peace. Over the decades, mistakes have been made on both sides, and those here who support only Israel’s right to all the land of Palestine may quickly argue that Palestinians were offered their own state but rejected it. The Oslo Accords offered only the opportunity to negotiate with Israel for their territory. Netanyahu is on video bragging about how he deliberately blew up the Oslo Accords, so no Palestinians were not given their own state.

I believe that what Israel is doing now is inhumane, unnecessary, and counterproductive. They have not captured the senior leaders in Hamas and they are unlikely tondo so even if they kill all 2 million Palestinians there because those leaders have too many tunnels for escape. So what Israel is fighting now is not Hamas but a civilian population. That is genocide.

I think there is now so much hatred between the two groups that an international force must take over the administration of Gaza and the West Bank and Israel must leave both. Soon after the October 7 attack, one of the Hamas leaders was reported as saying they decided to attack because Netanyahu had announced the annexation of the West Bank. There can be no peace unless both peoples agree that both have rights that must be respected. So far, Israel under Netanyahu has rejected that Palestinians have any rights to the land or to life. He is a major impediment to peace, as is Hamas. They can be dealt with by curtailing their financing, something Bibi refused to do, and by giving the Palestinians reasons to reject Hamas when they have their own state and freedom from Israeli control.

[scipan]

38. Well thought out. Good piece but from 12/21/23

The Israel Defense Forces says that it has killed thousands of Hamas fighters, “significantly damaged” 10 out of 24 1,000-strong battalions, destroyed hundreds of tunnel shafts, uncovered weapons stashes and that its troops now have achieved “operational freedom” in Gaza City in the enclave’s north.
...snip...
But Israeli officials and supporters of Israel say the country had no alternative to a large-scale combat operation to shore up Israel’s security in the aftermath of the Oct. 7 attacks, and that Hamas’ vast tunnel network required a major offensive to dismantle. They also say that Israel has come under criticism for its tactics in the past even when previous operations were more limited.

IDF officers say they need to keep up the ground offensive for several months to fulfill their goals but time may be running out.
...snip...
A senior Biden administration official said the Israeli offensive has been successful in removing Hamas commanders and midlevel commanders.

“They’ve eliminated quite a bunch of Hamas leadership at various levels,” the official said. “They are making progress against the leaders. There’s no doubt about that. But it is a big, well-oiled, organized military machine that they’re up against, and so they believe that they still have more work to do.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israels-offensive-hamas-gaza-succeeding-rcna130745

I do want Israel to decimate Hamas, but am convinced you're right about diminishing returns. They are now seemingly moving to assassinations in other countries; they've done it before and leaders basically just get replaced, although there must be a deterrent and degrading effect.

In Gaza, they have yet afaik to destroy all the tunnels, confiscate the weapons, kill the rest of the battalion commanders and militants, and "achieve operational freedom" in South Gaza(To the extent possible). I don't see that they've done that yet.

Netanyahu's not the right leader at all. Under him the IDF has a sort of careless disregard about killing Palestinians. His plans for afterward seem to be to make it so hard to live in Gaza that people will leave voluntarily, while possibly working to give them an alternative. So short of genocide definition #3 so far.

Like you said, there's deep seated hatred on both sides (especially by Hamas imo). Nobody's hands are clean. To turn that around Palestinians need a country and a working government that takes care of their basic needs, then maybe they will have something more important to them than martyrdom.

[lapucelle]

59. The definition of genocide contains two necessary conditions, the first of which is specific intent.

Elements of the crime

The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law.Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:

1. A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such";

AND

2. A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:

- Killing members of the group
- Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
- Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
- Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.

Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

[druidity33]

72. About a third

of the ruling coalition in Israel has publicly advocated for the removal of Palestinians and resettlement by Israelis in Gaza. I'm sure there are more who have done so privately. Bibi's hard line rhetoric goes back MANY years. Can you only prove intent when it's just half of the government trying to annihilate you?

[lapucelle]

79. It is the specific intent to annihalate "the group as such" that must be shown.

Pointing to the extremist statements by some politicians (none of whom are in the war cabinet) is neither evidence of a policy nor a plan. And in spite of those extreme statements, the ICJ still denied South Africa's petition for an immediate ceasefire.

Intent involves the deliberate targeting of members of the group because they are members of the group. One could make the argument that the group "Hamas" is being deliberately targeted, but theocratic terrorists are not a protected entity.

A better argument can be made that Hamas's October 7 protracted spree of torture, rape, and murder was, indeed, a genocide.

=========================================

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5094279/user-clip-john-francis-kirby

[druidity33]

96. Well...

I believe that Israel is deliberately targeting Palestinians because they are Palestinians. That would be intent according to the dictates you are setting out. As far as the ICJ is concerned, they came a lot darn closer to calling it genocide than A LOT of people thought they were going to. As for Oct 7... Israeli casualties for that day were around 1,200 (of which roughly 400 were soldiers). Thus far since Oct 7 Palestinians have suffered over 16,000 dead and 40,000 wounded... nearly 50% of whom are under the age of 18, the vast majority of which were non-combatants. Over 60% of the entire Gaza population displaced. No power, no hospitals, no medicine, no food.

Whether you want to make the academic argument that "No, this doesn't meet the technical definition of genocide" is your choice. But defending a policy that steps right up to the line of "genocide or not?"is... not a good look.

[lapucelle]

97. Those are the elements of the crime as set out in the Geneva Convention.

President Biden, Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield, and our departments of State and Defense understand that, as does the ICJ which denied SA's demand for a ruling for Israel's immediate withdrawal.

It is neither a matter of academics nor a matter of *my choice*. It is a matter of international law.

The definition of the crime of genocide as contained in Article II of the Genocide Convention was the result of a negotiating process and reflects the compromise reached among United Nations Member States in 1948 at the time of drafting the Convention. Genocide is defined in the same terms as in the Genocide Convention in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (Article 6), as well as in the statutes of other international and hybrid jurisdictions. Many States have also criminalized genocide in their domestic law; others have yet to do so.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

Anyone who believes that adhering to the Convention as written and ratified is *not a good look*, should take it up with the ICJ.

[druidity33]

98. The ICJ ruling was not

as clear cut as you are implying. Like i said. Israel is right up against the line of are they or are they not committing genocide?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/key-takeaways-world-court-decision-israei-genocide-case-2024-01-26/

The court ordered Israel to refrain from any acts that could fall under the Genocide Convention and to ensure its troops commit no genocidal acts in Gaza.
"At least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the (Genocide) Convention," the judges said.
The ruling required Israel to prevent and punish any public incitements to commit genocide against Palestinians in Gaza and to preserve evidence related to any allegations of genocide there.
Israel must also take measures to improve the humanitarian situation for Palestinian civilians in the enclave, it said.

Also, your fallback to The Rule of "international law" is pretty laughable considering how often Israel flaunts breaking those laws. Here i refer to their nuclear weapons and illegal settlements. Not to mention ignoring the 2004 ICJ ruling over the West Bank wall. Even if the ICJ declared it IS genocide, do you think Israel would change its strategy?

You can continue to point out how Israel has not committed genocide according to all the appropriate laws of the land. That's not winning the argument with me. In fact, it goes to the "Thou doth protest too much" realm.

I'm done responding. If it's not genocide, then it's egregious, indiscriminate, wanton killing. Which is better?

[lapucelle]

99. The elements of the crime are the elements of the crime. That is not an argument. It is a fact.

[Richard58]

8. What is happening in Gaza is horrific!

To me this is clearly a genocidal war. All infrastructure has been destroyed, only one hospital is still functioning to serve 2.3 million people and experts warn that mass starvation is taking place there. Israel refuses to let food, water and medicine in, which is a war crime! I also have to remind people that almost half the population there is made up of kids under 15 yrs old! So Israel is bombing and starving children! This is inexcusable! But yet we let it go on and keep giving Israel more weapons of war to kill the Palestinians and protect Israel at the UN. I am ashamed to be an American! For God's sake, stop the war!

[louis-t]

9. With you all the way. You don't bulldoze cemeteries if you

have any intention of creating a 2-state solution. I believe Netanyahu's intent is to annihilate the Palestinian people.

[Bettie]

23. Netanyahu says regularly

that there will never be a Palestinian state.

His biggest supporters are the right wing settlers who make no secret of the fact that they want all Palestinians gone from Gaza and the West Bank, so that they can take them both over.

I believe, as you do, that Netanyahu's intent is for everyone in Gaza to die. The ones that don't die in bombings will starve to death or die from disease.

[TeamProg]

25. Very little regard for Israeli hostages, either. Bibi is Little Putin. nt

[TheKentuckian]

50. Big picture it is far more important to eliminate the risk

of further hostage taking, rape gangs, and massacres on their civilians than prioritizing the current ones.

If they cannot be rescued they should be chalked as murdered and move forward with eliminating the threat.

Allowing them to be leverage is a dead end and an open invitation to secure more "leverage" at any cost.

The reward for hostage taking must be annihilation.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

29. Why is it always right wing

Governance that is bigoted,warlike and greedy and cruel.

Maybe the right wing needs to be seen for what it is,some form of authoritarianism and nobody needs that shit or a right wing.

Netanyahoo is no better than a maga here aggressive cruel conservative.
Genocide happening in Gaza.

If maga wins here it will be genocide of lgbtqi,non christians,and poor people.

Right wing governance is a pathology not a political party.

[leftyladyfrommo]

11. As Obama said there is blood on both sides

an this is unbearable.

[twodogsbarking]

12. I want innocent people to be able to live in peace and not be killed at random.

I also want the US to think about where they send military aid without basing it on who will buy the most weapons from the US of A.

This topic is dividing DUers.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

91. It's dividing Dems & Independents. Could mean the difference between Biden winning & losing

the presidency. Wouldn't put it past Hamas to have known this would happen, because like all the truly awful people and organizations in the world, they strongly prefer Trump as POTUS. Netanyahu too would prefer Trump, so we may be seeing a war made by both sides to help elect Trump.

Sound farfetched? Nothing evil seems unlikely anymore.

[twodogsbarking]

92. Thanks. I don't like DUers taking sides and being nasty.

[Cha]

13. Here's Sen Sanders on what he thinks about "genocide" in Gaza..

Protesters heckle US Senator Bernie Sanders during UCD event

When asked if he thought Ireland should support South Africa’s case at the International Court of Justice, Mr. Sanders said people should be careful about using the word genocide, at which point he was again interrupted.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218709816

[TeamProg]

20. You've got to remember, Bernie is a politician. He has to walk very carefully to not upset the cart. nt

[Cha]

26. Sanders is stating Facts..

That’s Not too fucking popular politically.

[TeamProg]

34. Huh? "Mr. Sanders said people should be careful about using the word genocide". That's not a fact, that is an

OPINION.

See the difference?

"Mr. Sanders said people should be careful about using the word genocide". Sounds VERY much like a policitican, no?

[Cha]

49. The FACT is.. It's WAR that Fucking HAMAS WANTED So

they Started It & Will NOT Stop until they Kill All the Israelis.

Butchers of HAMAS Wanted This WAR and they Got it.

I am Sorry about the Palestinians.. HAMAS is NOT.. they Kill Palestinians.. to make people feel sorry for them.. Fucking Assholes.

Because of course it's All Blamed on Israel.

[muriel_volestrangler]

66. "We have to do everything we can to stop the killing of innocent men, women and children" is pretty popular

“What is going on now is absolutely outrageous. We have to do everything we can to stop the killing of innocent men, women and children. We need the UN to try to bring about a ceasefire and a humanitarian pause to bring in desperately needed aid.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/02/15/protestors-heckle-senator-bernie-sanders-during-ucd-event/

Though, on the question of genocide,

Half the people who responded to a national poll conducted by the University of Massachusetts Amherst believe that Israel is “committing genocide” against the Palestinian people living in Gaza, according to the recently released poll results.

The poll, which used a sample of 1,064 U.S. adults, was split exactly in half on the question — 50% said Israel was “probably” or “definitely” committing genocide and 50% said Israel was “probably” or definitely” not committing genocide.

https://www.masslive.com/news/2024/02/half-of-umass-poll-respondents-think-israel-is-committing-genocide-in-gaza.html

[Torchlight]

37. I'm watching a goal post moved while it's happening!

[TeamProg]

39. I'm not sure that you actually know what that phrase means..

[Torchlight]

40. Another assertion of irony

[TeamProg]

41. See, I was right. You could not answer or come up with an example. Here is something for you:

My thoughts on the Israeli slaughter ( a fact, not an opinion) of Palestinians:

The irony is think, the plot is thin, the history laid out for all to see will be rich in sadness.

[Torchlight]

44. No question asked,

hence no answer given in response to your... opinion.

fi

[sheshe2]

101. Facts not opinions.

Facts not opinions on the slaughter of Israelis by Hamas, the governing body of Palestine.

***WARNING GRAPHIC***

Evidence on Display at Israel’s Forensic Pathology Center Confirms Hamas’ Atrocities

Forensic pathologists, including Israeli staffers as well as volunteers from abroad, were visibly disturbed by the evidence before them. Despite every effort to remain objective and detached—as called for by the profession—many broke down into tears throughout the day.

During the initial press conference, the forensics team showed images from their investigations. Among the images were those of charred hands with marks that revealed where the victims’ hands were bound behind their backs with metal wire before being burned alive.

Perhaps the most disturbing image in the slideshow was a completely charred mass of flesh, which at first glance could not be seen as ever having belonged to a human. It was only after a CT scan was done that experts could see the inhumanity of the image. Two spinal cords—one belonging to an adult, one to someone young—most likely a parent and child —bound together by metal wires in a final embrace before being set alight.


snip
Kugel also explained that the age range of the victims spans from 3 months to 80 or 90 years old. Many bodies, including those of babies, are without heads.

Asked if they were decapitated, Kugel answered yes. Although he admits that, given the circumstances, it’s difficult to ascertain whether they were decapitated before or after death, as well as how they were beheaded, “whether cut off by knife or blown off by RPG,” he explained.

https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/

I will incorporate your words here: "The irony is think, the plot is thin, the history laid out for all to see will be rich in sadness."

Ah, another quote of yours: "History will not be kind".

[Richard D]

14. This is what I cannot stand

https://www.facebook.com/reel/409514188115571?mibextid=7JIRaq&s=yWDuG2&fs=e

[TeamProg]

36. None of us can or should - if that is even true. Was she under oath? My point being that I don't think that anyone

outside of Israel is going to think that 30,000 dead Palestinians is justice for Oct 7.

[Richard D]

53. The fact that . . .

Last edited Fri Feb 23, 2024, 11:18 AM - Edit history (1)

. . . you question the truth of what she is saying when there have been so many first hand witnesses is something to consider, especially when compared to the unquestioning acceptance of death tolls from Hamas, which everyone seems to bow down to in their beliefs.

The second part is that this has nothing to do with justice or revenge. It's self-preservation and making sure that there is no Hamas to ever do anything like that to women and kids, adults and elders, ever again.

I have asked many people this question, and none have the cajones to answer. Here we have Hamas who has promised that they will repeat Oct 7 events and worse over and over. Let us believe them because it is even in writing. What might you be willing to do to protect a spouse, child, parent, even friend from being tortured and murdered by them? What would you do to keep a beloved from having body parts cut off while being raped? What would you do to not have a relative have their baby cut out of her womb and then stabbed to death as she is being raped?

This is what every Israeli is facing. The all are no more than 1 degree apart from someone who was murdered, tortured, or kidnapped.

So let us assume that you have a button in front of you. That button would kill every person who might perpetrate such horrors on someone you love. There will be innocents killed as well.

If you don't push the button, the worst horrors imaginable will happen to your loved ones. From what I have understood, the worst horrors have not even been put into public. So do you push the button to kill the terrorists and save your loved ones? Or do you let your loved ones die? Not pushing the button is your loved ones are killed. What would any sane person do?

[DemocraticPatriot]

64. "(not that there are real innocents in Gaza)" ???

Deplorable, sir.

[Richard D]

80. You are correct.

That was an over the top and uncalled for thing to say. I apologize and it is deleted.

[redqueen]

82. Thank you.

I'll delete my reply as well.

I have heard that sentiment has been used in chants/songs by IDF soldiers and it is horrific.

[Richard D]

86. Thank you for understanding

It is almost impossible to understand the pain so many Jews and Israelis are experiencing now.

While I do not know anyone who was murdered on Oct 7, I have friends who have lost loved ones. Many.

One friend has to live the rest of his life knowing that his beloved was sexually tortured and gang-raped before she was murdered. Imagin that.

I applaud the small anti-Hamas movement in Gaza. Sadly, from what I have heard, it is small, either because of widespread support for Hamas or out of fear of the repercussions of speaking up. Or both.

After over 20 years here, it burns to become aware of the unconscious and accepted antisemitism that I see too often. It hurts.

There is a widespread belief that Israelis are not to be trusted and are liars. Yet all information from Hamas is believed without much, if any, questioning,

I saw the videos of how Gazans spit upon poor 23-year-old Shani Louk. They cut off her breasts and played with them. All that was found of her was a small fragment of her skull. This is not far from me, and it lives in my heart. It is excruciating, yet I must bear witness, times the rest of the 1200. Though they may have happened, I have not heard of even the Nazis doing stuff like that.

And Hamas did all of this on purpose and with great planning. They knew where to strike to cause the most pain: our children, women, and parents. They knew and planned that Israel would counter-attack with ferocity, as is their right, and they knew that there would be civilians killed in the attack. They planned it. They did not care. In fact, they want such a death toll.

In other words, this is not theoretical. There are not many of us in this world. Every single death would proportionately be thousands of deaths of another people. Or more.

[redqueen]

95. I'm agnostic leaning towards atheist

Imo Islam is the most dangerous philosophy in the world. I don't like any religion but seeing the way that one is spreading, and knowing there's been no enlightened version rolled out as with other stone age beliefs - I really worry that so many people seem oblivious to what to me is very obvious danger. I think for society to not only progress, but to even survive, we have to push back on religion and especially on that one. There is no other religion which results in mass murder and terrorism.

I'm so sorry their brutality has directly affected your loved ones. I hope they can find healing and peace, and move forward in time.

Sadly the failure of any government to deal with such violence only leads to more support for right wing groups, or even dictators - e.g. Nayib Bukele.

[Richard D]

100. There is a mystical branch of Islam

That is Sufism. I have many dear friends who are what I would call neo-Sufis in Turkey, who are some of the most lovely, gentle, and kind people on the planet. But I agree, Islamism is a terrible danger to not only the Middle East but the entire world. It totally boggles my mind to see people in this country joining in on Hamas's ideology. Oddly, these are people mostly on the left of the political spectrum. This I do not understand. Common sense is so uncommon.

Thank you for your kind thoughts.

[Scruffy1]

76. Your "under oath" question is irrelevant.

Knowingly lieing to Congress is a felony weather you are "under oath" or not. That myth that not being under oath will absolve anyone from legal cuplability seems to have been planted in the media as a way of discrediting testimony. Of course, actually prosecuting anyone for this requires an actual justice system that would hold people with wealth and power accountable, which we don't have.

[TeamProg]

88. Sure, but exaggerating, embellishing are common. Under oath narrows those possibilities. You are making severe claims so

all "evidence" should be exact.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

15. Totally agree that Netanyahu is a murderer and a thug.

He's cornered himself. He's only protected by a war footing and a broken Knesset. He won't let go of his stolen power. He stole by making sure no other leader would receive support and be successful. He's a very dangerous leader for this time.

The world needs to make a path for Benny Gantz.

https://dnyuz.com/2024/01/24/the-man-who-could-unseat-netanyahu/

[Fla Dem]

16. I am sicken by the genocidal killing of children and their parents.

Did Hamas bring this on the citizens of Gaza? Absolutely and the Palestinian people have paid for those crimes 1000's of times over.

I also am saddened by the death of innocent Israelis who were murder when Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th.
That was a brutal and senseless killing of innocent civilians as well and Hamas knew it would bring the wrath of Israel down on the Palestine people.

But now when Israel has decimated Gaza, to do wholesale bombing on the limited space where innocent Palestinians now try to survive and protect their children, is nothing short of murder of innocents. It makes them no better than Hamas and, in the end, Israel will become a pariah.

[TeamProg]

18. " It makes them no better than Hamas and, in the end, Israel will become a pariah." The world's judgement will not be

kind.

[Sky Jewels]

19. They are at pariah status now. Netanyahu fucked Israel's future over for decades.

Last edited Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:50 PM - Edit history (1)

There’s no coming back from this. I was raised to support Israel, but it has lost me (and many, many others) through years of right wing actions, brutal treatment of Palestinians, its horrific colonial occupation, and its apartheid policies. Israel has become the South Africa of the 21st century.

Oh, and if anyone tries to pretend that makes me anti-Semitic and against Jewish people as a whole, I send a preemptive: Fuck You. Don’t even try that disingenuous shit anymore.

[TeamProg]

24. This. nt

[Goddessartist]

68. Thank you!

Agree 100%!

[TeamProg]

21. "Did Hamas bring this on the citizens of Gaza? " I think that's debatable. nt

[TheKentuckian]

27. What was the alternative?

That shit was not going to slide even with the most peace seeking imaginable leaders.

If it is the nonsense about sending a few special forces into a kill zone with pop guns then save it.

[TeamProg]

28. Too many to list. It is however clear, that Bibi wanted nothing more than to use any means to complete his forced

"voluntary migration".

Netayahu knew what this war would become. He just didn't expect it to end up at The Hague. Where it very well likely could, and SHOULD.

[TheKentuckian]

45. So nothing.

Thought so.

[TeamProg]

48. History will not be kind.

[TheKentuckian]

51. Still nothing.

[TeamProg]

52. History will not be kind.

[Evolve Dammit]

55. Very well stated

[Ford_Prefect]

22. This is the Warsaw Ghetto all over again. Shame on Netanyahu and all the extremists who sail in him.

[TeamProg]

32. The irony is thick, the plot is thin, the history will be rich in sadness. nt

[TexasDem69]

46. I get the sense you have no idea

What the Warsaw Ghetto was.

[Ford_Prefect]

63. I beg very much to differ.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/warsaw

The names and affiliations of the participants may be different, but the pattern and the final conclusions are very much the same.
Oppression, compression, and extinction in roughly the same order and to the the same gruesome end.

I do not advocate for Hamas, nor am I ignorant of the original Warsaw Ghetto occupants and status. Racism in any form produces extremes. If you wish to assign blame I suggest you start with the Israeli Right Wing and the phenomenally corrupt Netanyahu, along with the terrorists of Hamas and those who enable them for their own bloody purposes. They are using and consuming the citizens of Gaza and Israel to suit their own terrible agendas. In the same way East and West used both sides of Northern Ireland in the 50s, 60s and 70s.

[lapucelle]

81. The information that you cite does not support your claim. N/T

[flashman13]

31. I agree with you 100%. Two wrongs do not make anything right.

[onecaliberal]

33. We've been seeing it.

I really hate the world and the people who think killing innocent women and children anywhere for any reason is A-OK.
This world is very very very sick.

[Mosby]

35. This is creating a split in the democratic party.

And DU.

It's a shame.

I think its permanent.

[SoFlaBro]

42. It isn't. This will be old news by late summer. Some other fucking crisis will supplant this.

[sellitman]

90. I'm with you. It's why my time here is limited.

It's also why I don't volunteer to help out policing this place.

I'm very sad about it, but it's life.

[WarGamer]

43. Genocide is a strong word.

Rome hated Carthage.

Probably a bit of envy... or memories of Hannibal handing the Roman legions their ass...

But Rome decided that Carthago delende est. (Carthage must be destroyed)

So a Roman General named Scipio led an Army that committed genocide for real.

They killed/captured/enslaved every last man, woman and child in the great city of Carthage.

They leveled the city and according to stories... salted the Earth.



I'd say Israel has a ways to go before I'd call it genocide.

But IMHO, they're clearly on that pathway.

[TexasDem69]

47. No we are not seeing genocide in Gaza

I’m appalled that DU members can’t understand the basic difference between deaths in a war (caused by Hamas’ terrorism, rape, and child murders) and genocide. Rwanda was genocide, this is not.

[sellitman]

94. Agreed!!!

Great analogy.

[Patton French]

54. No, not genocide. It's a war started by Hamas.

No more 10/7. That’s all there is to it.

[EndlessWire]

56. You really can't blame

anybody for feeling this is genocide when various Israeli officials have floated such ideas. If they don't want the world to be alarmed by it, maybe they should STFU.

I think it's clear that Israel wants the land where the Palestinians live. The only path to peace is a two state (or three) solution with wide swaths of no man's land to insure that these two groups do not mix. Israel is incapable of absorbing Palestinians into their own population, so let's be real and help the Palestinians create their own space.

I think refusal of this consensus regarding a Palestinian state just shows that they will continue to fuck around with Palestinians until they all die or flee. I support the effort to end Hamas, but there is no planning for the aftermath except that they talk about resettling Palestinians elsewhere. So, you know, I just think that their intentions are transparent at this point.

It's important to remember that Hamas ended the ceasefire they had. So, those are the stated intentions of Hamas. But, you do what's right, not what your enemy wants. What excuse is Israel using to justify settler violence in the WB?

It's hard to continue to support Israel when they have the clear intent to dispose of the Palestinians. I don't want my tax money used for genocide. No matter how much I understand their burning hatred of Palestinians, of Hamas, and how much I agree that they had to declare war on Hamas, their stated endpoint cannot be the elimination of Palestinians and the occupation of their spaces. Israel is burning its bridges behind it. I'll never look at them the same way again.

[JT45242]

57. I agree Hamas and bibi can both be genocidal

Netanyahu and Hamas both need to face justice.

The majority of Israeli and Palestinians are merely victims of horrific acts.

We need a real two state solution with all noncombatants treated fairly ...economically, politically, and territorially.

[redqueen]

71. Not just netanyahu

The right wing in Israel is more violent and murderous than MAGATs here. Politicians and citizens.

[JT45242]

83. Agreed...but if he was removed would that faction shrink

Not sure. But it seems like if he faced consequences then that wing of Israeli politics would shrink

[BootinUp]

58. I am not consuming tons of news on it

Because I can’t stand it. I also know that Biden feels similarly to you and I and many others who can’t stand it. I don’t think it’s necessary to use the word genocide at all though. I’ll let the Biden Administration describe what they are doing and how they see Israel’s actions.

WASHINGTON (NEXSTAR) – The White House issued a memorandum Thursday evening requiring countries that receive weapons from the U.S. to abide by international humanitarian laws and allow humanitarian aid to reach war zones. Violators who do not sign the pledge could lose U.S. military support.

Friday, White House Press Secretary Karine Jean Pierre defended the president’s action and says the pledge does not change U.S. support for Israel.

“The president has been very clear, he wants to see Hamas, a terrorist organization defeated,” says Jean Pierre. “We want to also ensure we’re protecting innocent civilians.

The memorandum was announced as the president delivered his sharpest criticism of Israel’s military campaign. Thursday night he described Israel’s actions in Gaza as “over the top.” He told reporters he’s working to alleviate the humanitarian crisis growing on the ground.

“A lot of innocent people are in trouble and dying” says Biden, “And it’s got to stop.”

[leftstreet]

60. DURec

[Arazi]

61. It's not a genocide. It's war

This is what war looks like.

I will repeat again, the singular focus on this war, and the condemnation for Israel only is ugly and suspect.

The complete lack of attention, angst, anger or horror about any of the other far worse conflicts in terms of casualties, cruelty and suffering going on right now or even within all of DUs history, just Israel is bullshit and antisemitic.

It’s a war. This is what war looks like. Y’all better buckle up because Israel isn’t stopping until they feel their security objectives have been met.

Feel free to pile on. I’m trashing this thread so have at it.

[Voltaire2]

65. Those are not exclusive. But carry on. NT.

[EX500rider]

62. "30,000 dead Palestinians is just plain inexcusable."

What % of those are Hamas?
That is the object of war, right, to kill the enemy, in this case Hamas?

[Roy Rolling]

67. Just a thought...

It’s been at least 2,000 years that this geographic region has remained continuously at war or on the brink of war. That’s all. Are they really trying for peace?

[Goddessartist]

69. 100%

REC

[Be The Light]

73. I agree Stinky

You got to call a spade a spade.

It's so obvious to the rest of the world.

[bdamomma]

75. Netanyahu

is a criminal too, just like Orange pus job. I blame this on Netanyahe too. Israelis were out in the streets protesting him before October 7th.

Exterminating numbers of people= genocide

[LeftInTX]

77. This is what Hamas wants. They don't call it genocide, they call it jihad martyrdom.

Even if innocent civilians are killed, Hamas considered all of them to be martyrs for Hamas. The more martyrs, the better. Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian lives lost. They like it. Anything that makes Israel look bad is a win for them.

[BootinUp]

84. Governing is too hard. nt

[BootinUp]

85. Governing is too hard, just let Putin handle it. Nt

[Mountainguy]

87. No

The living conditions are caused by Hamas. Every truck going into Gaza is going to end up supporting hamas more than non-hamas. They will get fed, thei families and friend will get fed. Anyone else will be shot trying to get a loaf of bread.

The civilian deaths are caused by Hamas using civilian infrastructure, including homes as military facilities and launching attack from them.

If Israel wanted to wipe out every person in Gaza they could have done it in a week.

[the_sly_pig]

89. So here we are.

Personally, I'm in my 53rd year of having to hear about two warring religions and their misdeeds. I must admit I could care less about any religion.

Sure, the sheer volume of the dead matters, 675 or 3,000 or 30,000 or 16 million or 60 million. But in the end, the real loss is felt by the family, not the rest of the world. Though the rest of the world retains the right to be shocked, appalled, sympathetic and disgusted.

Is it ever going to end? I don't think so. 9/11 brought out the worst in the United States. 300,000 dead Iraqis. We were attacked and vengeance woke. 15 of 19 9/11 attackers were Saudi. The Saudi scumbag prince is allowed to murder. But it was Saddam on Santas naughty list.

But I also have to admit I have a problem with those who would purposefully cross a border with the express intent to murder civilians, to murder children, to RAPE and murder women and to take hostages. Cowardice, contempt, disgust and apathy are what I feel for the fate of the perpetrators and their supporters.

As for Israel's response? Genocide. But then Hamas knew the consequences of their actions prior to the attack. Israel has a long, long, long way to go to match the death toll of other historic genocides.

So yes, it's a tragic situation. But not without precedent and certainly not unexpected.

And dollars to donuts, on the day I die in hopefully 20 to 25 years, there is going to be a horrible news story about the raging conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

[themaguffin]

93. Putin is clapping. Nothing. I mean nothing will distract me from the election.