To beat Trump, we need to know why Americans keep voting for him. Psychologists may have the answer

[KPN]

Many explanations are proposed for the continued rise of Donald Trump, and the steadfastness of his support, even as the outrages and criminal charges pile up. Some of these explanations are powerful. But there is one I have seen mentioned nowhere, which could, I believe, be the most important: Trump is king of the extrinsics.

Some psychologists believe our values tend to cluster around certain poles, described as “intrinsic” and “extrinsic”. People with a strong set of intrinsic values are inclined towards empathy, intimacy and self-acceptance ... tend to be open to challenge and change, interested in universal rights and equality, and protective of other people and the living world. People at the extrinsic end of the spectrum are more attracted to prestige, status, image, fame, power and wealth ... are strongly motivated by the prospect of individual reward and praise ... more likely to objectify and exploit other people, to behave rudely and aggressively and to dismiss social and environmental impacts. They have little interest in cooperation or community. People with a strong set of extrinsic values are more likely to suffer from frustration, dissatisfaction, stress, anxiety, anger and compulsive behaviour.
......
We are not born with our values. They are shaped by the cues and responses we receive from other people and the prevailing mores of our society. They are also moulded by the political environment we inhabit. If people live under a cruel and grasping political system, they tend to normalise and internalise it, absorbing its dominant claims and translating them into extrinsic values. This, in turn, permits an even crueller and more grasping political system to develop.

If, by contrast, people live in a country in which no one becomes destitute, in which social norms are characterised by kindness, empathy, community and freedom from want and fear, their values are likely to shift towards the intrinsic end. This process is known as policy feedback, or the “values ratchet”. The values ratchet operates at the societal and the individual level: a strong set of extrinsic values often develops as a result of insecurity and unfulfilled needs. These extrinsic values then generate further insecurity and unfulfilled needs.
......
When a society valorises status, money, power and dominance, it is bound to generate frustration. It is mathematically impossible for everyone to be number one. The more the economic elites grab, the more everyone else must lose. Someone must be blamed for the ensuing disappointment. In a culture that worships winners, it can’t be them. It must be those evil people pursuing a kinder world, in which wealth is distributed, no one is forgotten and communities and the living planet are protected. Those who have developed a strong set of extrinsic values will vote for the person who represents them, the person who has what they want. Trump. And where the US goes, the rest of us follow.

[link:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/29/donald-trump-americans-us-culture-republicanhttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/29/donald-trump-americans-us-culture-republican|
- - - - -
Interesting read. Makes sense to me.

[DemMedic]

1. Screw fluoride in the water

How about thorazine in red states water supplies?

[MagickMuffin]

5. I think you need to rethink your thinking on this

By your suggestion I would also be infected because I drink that same water since I live in a red state.

Please explain how this concept will only affect those that you want to medicate?

[ShazzieB]

18. Yes, it would affect absolutely everyone.

Including babies, children of all ages, pregnant people, those who are already on the same medication (hence risking overdose) or medications that would interact with it in harmful ways, and those who have other medical conditions that would be adversely affected by the administration of a medication their doctor did not prescribe. The list goes on and on...

Then there is the issue of informed consent, which is a core principle in medical ethics. Administering medication to someone without their knowledge, much less consent, is unethical as hell.

Practicing medicine without a license is illegal for a reason, and most of us here are quick to condemn it when it happens in the form of taking away the bodily autonomy of women with draconian abortion bans or denying needed medical care to trans people. Joke or no joke, medicating the water supply would be no different in principle and just as objectionable.

This is the kind of comment people make as a joke, but it's simply not funny, because the scenario it suggests would be a dystopian nightmare.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

53. You are right

But I dont think he literally was going to dump a shitload of thorazine in the water supply.

Sometimes it is a reflection of the frustration of dealing with cultie ,rabid republicans a desire to stop the chaos caucus,made into a comment.
It was funny to me and I used to take 1,000 mgs of thorazine as a teen. It did have effects. And some of those effects would definately put a chill on some of the more crazy and violent republicans.

No need to admonish him.He was expressing a desire for the republicans to stop causing chaos in the form of a joke.

[ShazzieB]

64. I hear you, and I absolutely understand the frustration of which you speak.

I have a problem with people joking about certain things, and that comment struck a nerve with me. But I did come on awfully strong with my reply, probably too much so. Ah well, live and learn!

[Maru Kitteh]

67. Don't beat yourself up Shaz. We all have our triggers, lol. Mine is when people insist

all "obviously guilty" people should be locked up immediately. No. That's not democracy and that's not how it works. There's a process. Yes, even for an obviously guilty POS like Trump. I have a bottle of champagne waiting for his first conviction. If he actually goes to jail, I may have to retire. Nobody wants to see him jailed more, but the democratic process matters more.

[Maraya1969]

65. I think they were just trying to make a point. None of us would ever do any of these things

The point being that the far right needs medication. I've said that a lot about the conspiracy theory nuts jobs.

[markpkessinger]

26. Oh, good grief! It was CLEARLY a joke, and a funny one at that! . . .

It also contained a historical reference to an earlier era of Republican lunacy! In the late 1950s and early '60s, members of the John Birch Society -- a precursor to all the Republican conspiracy-mongering one sees today, convinced themselves that fluoridated municipal water supplies were part of some communist plot to turn people into communists!

Sorry you are so historically unaware!

[MagickMuffin]

32. Perhaps you need to get a better sense humor

I knew about the history of the water supply and fluoride.

Shame on you for being rude.

[lindysalsagal]

8. Lol. No kidding!

[MontanaMama]

27. I live in a red state.

Where do you suggest I get my water for myself and my family of Dems? I'll wait...

[markpkessinger]

30. This was clearly a facetious comment .

. . . and a pretty brilliant one at that! It was a riff on the John Birch Society's conspiracy theory from the '50s and early '60s that believed that flouridated municipal water supplies were part of some communist plot to turn everyone into communists! Lighten up already!

[MontanaMama]

39. Brilliant? No.

Did you tell everyone who had a similar reaction to "lighten up already"?

[nycbos]

31. Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot...

... we have ever had to face.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

52. Maybe thorazine will make them

Too tired to act out. Too fat to fight,Hopefully too tired and apathetic to vote too.

[mwooldri]

70. I would err towards psilocybin.

Apparently eating magic mushrooms turned conservatives into liberals.... I don't know how much truth there is to that and I can't remember where I learned this (probably BBC World Service program) but I'd rather put that in the water....

[struggle4progress]

2. My theory is that many Americans should drink less and take more laxatives

[NameAlreadyTaken]

3. "He's just like us!"

i.e., he's greedy, dishonest, selfish, nasty, petty, ignorant, hateful, disrespectful, lazy, hypocritical and ignorant. In other words, he emobidies all of their qualities. Why wouldn't they fall for him?

[Traildogbob]

4. And he hates "the blacks".

Racism and the white Jebus that God sent for the whites to rule guide their ship.
Racism and white supremacy. Period. The exact play book of the other God Prophet they worship.
Adolf.

[Tickle]

21. Apparently not all blacks NT

[BaronChocula]

38. We could put it like this

They appreciate the support of Blacks who stand with them in advancing the cause of white nationalism. Whether or not they respect them is another thing. But then again, Trump himself doesn't respect his cult followers.

[Attilatheblond]

6. Just for fun, I am introducing a nature/nurture aspect to the discussion

Several studies have pointed to the likelihood of an empathy gene.
[link:https://lifehacker.com/science-just-got-closer-to-finding-our-empathy-genes-1823683583|]

and a lot more at if you search "Gene for empathy found"

As far as the nature/nurture argument, I have always come down on the side of 'both!' There are lots of people who had terrible upbringing and histories but do not become monsters. And all too many who were reasonably raised who are sociopaths or worse. But if there is a genetic component, it might explain a lot of those cases that don't fit the nurture argument.

[lindysalsagal]

9. I wouldn't be surprised to find empathy is structural.

Some become proficient at broadcasting an empathic veneer, but it's through careful observation and clever scripting. It's not their true nature.

[Attilatheblond]

24. You don't think some/many people are actually empathetic?

Even animals demonstrate empathy and I doubt it is due to how they want to be perceived. My dog just moved her 'puppy' a stuffed dog, onto my bed, cradled it in her paws and under her chin, as I vacuumed. She is not bothered in the least by the noisy machine, in fact, I have to order her to move so I can use it, but she knows the cat is afraid of it. Her new puppy toy was carefully tucked in to feel secure. She does not do anything like this to all her other stuffed toys we refer to as her babies.

My daughter's rescued horse was a great comforter to other abused horses at the rescue, and he lent quiet support to any human who was troubled. The empathy was real, not for treats or positive attention.

I have known many people who are kind and giving beyond any reason to pretend so they would be well thought of or rewarded. Most don't want their kindnesses to be known by others.

[Metaphorical]

45. Empathy describes three somewhat different things

A disclaimer here: I am not a psychologist, only someone fascinated by cognitive processes, including emotion.

Reflective empathy (mirroring) means that your emotional state tends to reflect that of those around you. Most people have some level of reflective empathy. Its opposite is sociopathy - your emotions are unaffected by the emotions of others. You feel emotions, but they are usually driven by your internal state and quite frequently tie into various forms of narcissism.

Receptive empathy - this means that you are good at reading the emotions of others. This is different from reflective empathy in that it describes only the perceptive ability, not the degree to which that perception influences your own emotional state.

Projective empathy - this means that you are good at changing your apparent emotional state to influence others.

One can be sociopathic, but have strong receptive and projective forms of empathy. This is almost the classical definition of narcissism.

Donald Trump has no reflective empathy and very little receptive empathy, though he's a very strong projective empath.
Joe Biden is almost the complete opposite - he's a fairly strong reflective and receptive empath, but has only a slightly above average projective empathy. A salesman (and Trump is a consummate salesman) needs some receptive empathy to read their "audience", but without the reflective ability, they typically have trouble putting themselves in other people's shoes.

Note that these definitions of empathy do not in general define which emotions are being received or projected. A comedian, for instance, is someone who has strong projective empathy generally geared towards making you feel happy, though often with tinges of anger or dissatisfaction. A doctor may have poor projective empathy (poor bedside manners, for instance) but still feel deeply about the emotional state of others.

I think this is also tied into introversion and extroversion, though there's not a complete correlation. Introverts usually tend to be more perceptive about the world around them (their filters are "set" too low, meaning that they can be more easily be overwhelmed by those perceptions), while extroverts usually are more perceptive about their inner state (they are stimulus hungry because their filters are set too high). Both, however, may be highly reflective empaths - meaning that they react more strongly to these stimuli - or may be low reflective empaths (they are unaffected by external scenes or emotional cues).

Most projective empaths are "easy to read" but when reflective and projective states don't match, they can also be seen as inauthentic by those with stronger receptive empathy. There's a common perception that people on the autism spectrum have trouble reading the emotions of others, but that's been shown repeatedly to not be the case. Rather, they are usually highly receptive empaths who get cognitive dissonance because they see people who project a certain emotional state but internally have a different one, which can be very confusing, especially when they are younger. On the other hand, people on the spectrum are often described as being aloof or passively aggressive because they don't have the ability to project empathically. They are usually overwhelmed by their emotions when younger (the spiral that parents of spectrum children know FULL well), and learn to control those emotions primarily by not showing them when they get older.

This is a working hypothesis of mine, but it seems to be consistent with what I've seen.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

55. One thing I do know

Is empathy is vital when you look at the survival of our species and the world.

Sociopathy is destructive to our species and the world

When the per capita number of sociopaths rise and reach a certain point I think society gets screwed up by sociopathic " values" like competition gone crazy, greed ,violence etc.colors society way more than it should. It effects us and endangers the world we share.

What type of person that is rewarded with wealth status and power reflects how much sociopath "values "are seen as normal reality and treated as if they are normal.

Just some thoughts

[Caliman73]

16. Twin Studies strongly suggest that it is BOTH to varying degrees.

Human behavior is one of the hardest things to quantify and categorize because of the factors that influence it. If you have significant damage to specific parts of the brain, that may inhibit your ability to develop certain traits or to control your impulses. Stress (in many forms) also has a profound effect on neurochemical transmission and absorption.

Hormones also play a large part in whether or how certain structures within the brain develop.

What I say is that we do not have the technology to detect and intervene within the brain right now so the best thing that we can do as a species is to create an environment where human flourishing is maximized and deal with those "odd situations" as needed. As of right now, the environment for most people on earth is very stressful and that is a result of CHOICES by people with power and wealth who do not want to share some of theirs to ensure that everyone has enough to have a decent life.

[Matthew28]

7. Same reason

Russians support Putin and most people of this planet are very religious and support trash like Iran, Saudi Arabia and more such bullcrap. People design gods and religion and need to then judge and force others to follow it through force. Trump frankly like putin is the american idiocies guy to force that.

People that believe in god also believe that all should bow to that god and basic freedoms is going against such control.

[moondust]

10. Dumb thugs.

Take a look at a WWE crowd sometime. That's his base.

WWE Hall of Famer

[EYESORE 9001]

11. Or maybe it's because MAGAts are assholes

who are willing to endure whatever hardships they face as a result of electing Cheeto Benito because they believe their enemies will suffer even worse.

[Caliman73]

17. That still leads to more "Why" questions. Why are they assholes? Can anything be done to mitigate that?

It isn't excusing their behaviors and choices. It is trying to understand if there are factors that can be changed to mitigate the situation. This may be naive and utopian, but if people's basic needs were met, they had connections to others in their community, and they weren't dealing with a lot of stressors based in survival needs, people would probably be less inclined to want to lash out at others. It would not stop it completely but it would reduce it to the point where other factors could be sought and addressed.

Right now, the United States is by far, the richest country on earth, yet we have massive amounts of poverty, homelessness, the largest per capita population in prison, and the most amount of gun violence per capita, at least within other "advanced" economies. To say that it is because, "they are assholes" is to miss a lot of things that we might be able to address to reduce the number of "assholes" that develop in our society.

[SharonAnn]

33. They spent too many years listening to Rush Limbaugh, then Fox news. They bathed in an environment of hate and fear.

[Caliman73]

46. True. That definitely gives them focus based on misattribution ...

The question is again, "Why?". My family and I are doing okay, but we have had struggles. I have grievances. I am 50 years old and grew up during the "Reagan Revolution". I was 11 when Rush Limbaugh started broadcasting and 23 when Fox News came onto the scene. My dad was a Republican. I grew up with racial grievances living in close proximity in a mixed neighborhood and having less than positive encounters growing up. That said, I did not go down the right wing rabbit hole, while some in my family (cousins) did.

What is it about me, and my relatives, that was different? We all grew up in relatively similar circumstances. Hell, many of my cousins and I spent significant amount of time in the same home several hours a day with my grandparents and uncles, many of whom had Conservative attitudes.

Like I said, I have a lot of problems with the way things are. However, I do not blame immigrants. I don't think that women working outside the home and LGBTQ people accessing more rights, and people learning about the darker periods of our history, or "taking god out of the classroom" are the causes of ANY of our problems.

I see most of the problems that we have today as a result of the unequal distribution of the benefits of society. I see a mixture of greed, sexism, racism, and other negative attitudes from groups in power toward marginalized groups as the keys to much of the problems we face.

I see the same "border crisis" not as a problem with people coming here, but of WHY are people coming here and what, if anything have we (the United States) done to contribute to that?

People with little to no power tend to be the victims of problems caused by people with power, wealth, and resources. Conservative followers tend to always fall for the idea that the victims ARE the problem.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

59. Teaching the public

What abuse is,what narcissism is,what a toxic relationship is,what trauma is .What about the person does that makes a relationship with them painful . Have it taught to kids public service announcements on tv some geared to kids kinda like schoolhouse rock thing , and have some announcements for teens and adults on tv too. Having resources that offer practical help like transportation a safe place to run to and protection for anyone leaving a toxic relationship is vital,and jailing abusers ,child abusers and permanently denying them access to kids ,reinforcing orders to keep away from the victims with laws with actual teeth can help.

[keep_left]

12. In a nutshell: "He's not hurting the people he needs to be hurting"!

And when Trump throws them under the bus as well, they rationalize it like this.

A few miles away, another prison employee, Crystal Minton, accompanied her fiancé to a friend’s house to help clear the remnants of a metal roof mangled by the hurricane. Ms. Minton, a 38-year-old secretary, said she had obtained permission from the warden to put off her Mississippi duty until early February because she is a single mother caring for disabled parents. Her fiancé plans to take vacation days to look after Ms. Minton’s 7-year-old twins once she has to go to work.

The shutdown on top of the hurricane has caused Ms. Minton to rethink a lot of things.

“I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this,” she said of Mr. Trump. “I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html

[calimary]

19. WTF???

And who, pray tell, are the people he “needs to be hurting”?

[keep_left]

22. In other words, they're pissed when Trump doesn't move heaven and earth...

...for his devoted fans and voters. They're also pissed that Trump is insufficiently sadistic toward the people they hate. In both cases, the reason is the same: Trump is narcissistic and lazy and only cares about himself. As we have all seen for years now, Trump demands 100% loyalty from people but thinks nothing of it when he casually throws them under the bus for any reason (or no reason) whatsoever.

There is an old parable about people like Trump: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

[KPN]

23. Wow. That's classic! What a response to the realization

that the moron one voted for is causing one’s financial pain and insecurity. “Not hurting the people he needs to hurt” — too much.

[keep_left]

28. I recall that the article got some attention at the time (2019) from Maddow...

...and others--it was posted here several times. The NYT story has sort of been forgotten since then, but it occasionally shows up when Trump voters are part of the discussion. The expression "not hurting the people he needs to hurt" really does get at what the Trump fans are about, especially when it comes to their gullibility. They just keep going back for more.

[Marcus IM]

13. This is why I love Cuba and my/our family there.

"People with a strong set of intrinsic values are inclined towards empathy, intimacy and self-acceptance ... tend to be open to challenge and change, interested in universal rights and equality, and protective of other people and the living world."

This pretty much describes Cuban solidarity among Cubans IN Cuba, and Cuba with the world.

[Cherokee100]

14. Just Wondering

I was just wondering, who counts the votes in red states. They seem to know a lot, about flipping/stealing votes, etc:. Just wondering..

[Marcus IM]

15. Pretty much describes capitalism ...

When a society valorises status, money, power and dominance, it is bound to generate frustration. It is mathematically impossible for everyone to be number one. The more the economic elites grab, the more everyone else must lose. Someone must be blamed for the ensuing disappointment. In a culture that worships winners, it can’t be them. It must be those evil people pursuing a kinder world, in which wealth is distributed, no one is forgotten and communities and the living planet are protected.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

20. lol jesus christ it's not that deep.

People vote for Trump for the same reason anybody votes for anybody -- because they like what he says, says he will do or represents.

[hueymahl]

34. I think the question is what does he say, do or represent that is so attractive

And why do they find it attractive?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

47. He says cruel, bigoted things and people like it because they feel the same way because they believe being

cruel and bigoted is a good thing.

[hueymahl]

57. Is it really that simple?

Seems pretty black and white. That has not been my experience with how people really are.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

60. When it comes to voting, yes. People vote for candidates who do or say things or act in a way they like.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

61. Some peoples

Style of thinking is rigid black or white.They do not see problems or much of anything in shades of grey.
They cant handle uncertainty and cant handle ambiguity.

[TygrBright]

25. SIMPLE: Since the 1960s, Republicans have been actively working to destroy the public education system

Which means that every year an increasingly large number of Americans reach voting age who have never taken a civics class, never learned the basics of critical thinking, history, social studies, economics, etc.

In addition, since the 1980s, the GOP has been actively working for their Oligarch puppetmasters to destroy the middle class and loot their resources for the .001%, rendering increasingly large numbers of Americans (including those coming of age under-educated each year) frustrated, angry, and feeling hard done-by by "powerful elites."

In addition, since the 1990s, an enormously powerful and effective propaganda operation by foreign governments has been actively and effectively working to exploit divisions in the American population, assigning everyone an identity class and pointing out how oppressed that identity class is by various, if not all, other identity classes.

And that's how we got where we are today, when 30% of Americans will vote for an angry, undereducated loser who reinforces their sense of being oppressed and promises to enact their revenge on their oppressors.

This is not complicated or obscure.

wearily,
Bright

[MontanaMama]

29. I believe MAGAts are miserable, mean, angry people.

They want to blame others for their misery and they want the rest of us as unhappy as they are.

[hueymahl]

42. Meanwhile, over on "RepubicanUnderground"

They are saying exactly the same thing about Libs.

Name calling won't help. Well, it may help you feel better in the short term.

[MontanaMama]

63. Who called them names?

I said I believe the are miserable unhappy people. They certainly are not a happy lot. Good grief.

[Raven123]

35. Not much of a stretch from MAGA to narcissistic personalities

Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition in which people have an unreasonably high sense of their own importance. They need and seek too much attention and want people to admire them. People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others.

[nuxvomica]

36. Interesting and possibly useful

I can see myself explaining the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy as a lead-in to saying, "You've always seemed like an intrinsic type to me so why do you support that asshole?" It's always good to lead with a compliment before criticizing someone. It may at least plant a seed.

In my philosophy, the intrinsic type is called a "hero" or "mature adult" and the extrinsic, a "villain" or "overaged brat." I think a lot of this has to do with the choices people make as they mature, especially as they go through adolescence. The thing is, we all want the same thing: to feel safe and to express ourselves freely. The extrinsics don't realize that the feeling of safety starts with making yourself confident amidst the corruption and dangers of the world so that you can transform a corrupt world into a safer one for others. It simply doesn't work if you just care about your own safety.

[KPN]

43. Yeah, it kind of boils down to "me" vs "us". The "us"

folks are turned into the enemy by the “me’s”.

[Rizen]

37. Stupid people like to worship narcissists.

[hueymahl]

40. A lot of people missing the point of this post

If you can't understand the motivation of your opponents, you can never craft arguments that would be persuasive to them.

I am not ready to write them all off. I live among them and count many as friends. Their politics are not black and white. They are motivated by the perceived disparity between those that make the rules and seem to be enriched thereby and those that try to follow the rules and seem not to get ahead.

Most want to be just left alone to make their own way. They perceive most those in power as corrupt, and the further away they are from their level, the more corrupt they are.

Minorities have experienced, and still experience, the playing field being tilted against them. With the disgustingly large disparity in wealth in this country, poor whites are now experiencing the same thing, or at least that is how they perceive it.

Here is a quick breakdown of what the typical Trump voter believes (and for those that don't like this message or are confused by rhetoric and think they need to report this post, I am not advocating any of these positions; I am just reporting what I think Trump backers believe :

Foreign wars? Helps the rich who own stock in military companies. The average American fights those wars and their taxes go to pay it. Illegal Immigration? Free trade? Both taking jobs from middle america. Again, helps the rich by suppressing wages. Deficit spending? Poor and middle class pay in the resulting inflation. The rich get richer because inflation increses hard asset value. Covid rules? Attack on freedom. The elites lied about the how bad it was and the prescription of staying inside cratered the economy and didn't do any good. Rich got richer with massive subsidies aimed primarily at businesses.

It is a crooked game run by a bunch of con artists. Democrats are the worst, but RINO's are right behind them. Everyone is getting rich off the government teat at the expense of average hard working Americans. Trump, for all his flaws, is better than that lot. Can't be worse.

What I do believe is that we don't do a very good job of addressing these issues rhetorically. Calling Trump supporters names like you are on a middle school playground does not help either.

[Caliman73]

51. They feel the same grievances but misattribute the causes AND solutions...

Here is what you said:

Foreign wars? Helps the rich who own stock in military companies. The average American fights those wars and their taxes go to pay it. Illegal Immigration? Free trade? Both taking jobs from middle america. Again, helps the rich by suppressing wages. Deficit spending? Poor and middle class pay in the resulting inflation. The rich get richer because inflation increses hard asset value. Covid rules? Attack on freedom. The elites lied about the how bad it was and the prescription of staying inside cratered the economy and didn't do any good. Rich got richer with massive subsidies aimed primarily at businesses.

It is a crooked game run by a bunch of con artists. Democrats are the worst, but RINO's are right behind them. Everyone is getting rich off the government teat at the expense of average hard working Americans. Trump, for all his flaws, is better than that lot. Can't be worse.

Democrats are the worst? Why? I am a Democrat, but primarily because the Democratic Party might be more workable, not because they are flawless. I do see a problem with money capturing some within the entire system. Here is where they go wrong however. Donald Trump couldn't be worse? He is the epitome of the corruption within the system. Conservatives WANT inequality because they see inequality as the "natural order" because some people are inherently BETTER than others. With humans there is no NATURAL ORDER, while we are animals and live within nature (like bears, tigers, chimpanzees, etc...) our fundamental NATURE is to adapt our surroundings around us. Civilization isn't natural. Capitalism, Communism, Monarchy, Democracy, etc... none of it is NATURAL.

People with power tend to want to stay in power and increase that power and wealth. What right wingers tend to get wrong is they think that Democrats are playing this elaborate game where they bring in immigrants, give them benefits, in order to create "voters" even when people who come in without documentation CANNOT vote and DO NOT vote. There is a much simpler answer that they refuse to see. Wealthy people influence everyone to legislate in ways that will keep them wealthy. They try to capture BOTH sides, but because Democrats/Liberals/Progressives have a deeper notion that everyone deserves equal dignity and a chance to succeed, Democrats try to work within the system to distribute the benefits of society more equitably and to try to remove some of the barriers for people who are marginalized.

Trump is not trying to change the system. At all. He is trying to capitalize on the system to enrich himself and people who are loyal to him. He doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself. Everything is a transaction.

I agree with you that calling people names is silly and unproductive. I also think that these people are FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG about the root causes of the problems. They are falling for the framing that "there is not enough to go around" and that Democrats see it only as a game of power. Democrats for better or worse are trying to solve problems. In my opinion, they are working within a system that is flawed and which will always lead back to inequality, but they are at least trying while the other side, including Donald Trump thinks that inequality and suffering are "just fine" and are actually setting the disadvantaged against each other while they hoard all of the wealth and benefits of society.

[hueymahl]

56. I think we are saying the same thing

Just so there is no confusion, I did not "say" what you put in bold, lol! That is what I have heard from listening to people most would likely label somewhere on the MAGA spectrum.

100% that Trump is not the savior they think he is. He is just another populist windbag saying whatever is necessary to get elected. He is actually far worse than that, but he is using the populist playbook for sure.

My biggest point is that until we Democrats start understanding the why behind the anger, and addressing it using approachable rhetoric and real solutions, people like Trump will continue to gain popularity. Or we can keep isolating them with middle-school put-down and see if that works this time.

[JCMach1]

41. They have been conditioned by religion and authoritarian

Beliefs to fall completely for external locus of control.

[Rocknation]

44. There is no CONTINUED rise of Trump, other than of his vigorously-crafted media illusion that there is one.

Last edited Tue Feb 13, 2024, 04:18 PM - Edit history (6)

I certainly agree that:

...(T)he more the economic elites grab, the more everyone else must lose. Someone must be blamed for the ensuing disappointment: in a culture that...valorizes...winners, it can’t be them.

But what Trump supporters really support is the fantasy that it's the socio-economic classes BELOW them who are draining their ability to join the classes above. So they passionately cling to the conservative promise of admission to the "economic elites" once they have have obtained enough absolute financial and political power to wipe the lower classes out.

What is actually "continuing to rise" is the number of voters who are now looking UP the socio-economic ladder and discovering the root of their problems. More Americans have voted AGAINST Trump than for him TWICE -- and by TWICE a margin of victory the second time. If he does make it to November of this year, I'd be willing to bet that Trump scores a popular vote trifecta.


Rocknation

[WarGamer]

48. Let me summarize.

Trump appeals to those who feel angry...

Angry because they're not finding the success they'd hoped for... not finding love, not finding peace or happiness.

So if you can blame your woes on someone else and a politician reinforces these feelings... they own you.

The people who vote for Trump WANT him to "stick it to" the people they hate.

Red Jersey, Blue Jersey...

There's no such thing as a swing voter in this election. Anyone who claims to be is lying.

[Beetwasher.]

49. Nah, That's a Symptom. It's just Unreconciled Childhood Trauma

They had shitty abusive parents and they’re not evolved enough to understand they had shitty parents and so will never be able to process the trauma. So they’re mean, vindictive psychopaths who identify with their totemic god king who seemingly has this magical protection to do and say all the nasty shitty things they’ve always wanted to.

Charles Manson writ large.

[Goonch]

50. ;-{)

[Orrex]

54. They're a KKKult of ignorant, racist fuckheads

They worship Trump more devoutly than their purported god, and they will continue to worship him until the last of them is dead.

I'm sick of articles exhorting Liberals to "understand" and "reach out to" and "show empathy for" this deranged throng of assholes. They're not some deep mystery to be coaxed out of hiding: they worship him because he celebrates their ignorance, he praises their bigotry & racism, and he validates their most deeply-held victimhood fantasies. Why would they bother with reality when they could instead pay Trump to shit into their mouths?


Fuck every last one of them.

[Blue Owl]

58. Whatever the explanation, I'll never understand what they see in this

For fuck's sake, the dude is shitting his pants!

[betsuni]

62. Trump was the populist right-wing hate radio hero they were waiting for.

Nothing is ever your fault, scapegoats everywhere. Cozy feeling of belonging to the in-crowd (Us) who knows what's really going on, not fooled by all the corrupt establishments and long list of enemies out to get you (Them).

A reporter covering the Iowa primary said Trump voters told her they supported him because:

He's authentic, tells it like it is.
He fights for me.
He's the only one who can change anything, save us.
I like his policies.

[GenThePerservering]

66. I really don't give a shit about 'understanding' magats

and I don't think it matters. What DOES matter is telling the truth loud and long - if they listen they'll listen. And what DOES matter is getting out the vote beating them at the polls.

[Hahn_Bikey]

68. Title of article a little misleading

I can’t disagree with the interesting insight, but the title started off with “To Beat Trump” which made it sound as if the article was going to offer something that we can do with that information.

[SouthernDem4ever]

69. I take issue with the term "continued rise"

I don't think there is any rise any longer. When a party becomes so full of bigots, racists, rapists, and insurrectionists, there's no other way but down.