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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMy, admittedly pedestrian and largely uninformed, take on GAZA ...
The U.S. is not the solution ... Egypt is not the solution; it seems to me that the only way to advance any peace process in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict would have to begin with Israel accepting, even promoting, a separate and independent Palestinian state.
With the fractured "leadership" in the Palestinian leadership, i.e., Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah and others, all fighting for dominance of Palestinian "governance, there is no way to enforce internal discipline, as each faction has its operatives that are not answerable to any of the others. So even if Hamas (or anyone else) issues a directive to stop the missile attacks, that would have little effect on the other factions.
If Israel were to accept a separate Palestinian state, allowing the Palestinian factions "fight it out" amongst themselves, as to who and/or what that government would look like, the resulting government would be a nation-state that can be held accountable, internationally, while providing that "government" the ability enforce internal disciple.
The U.S., Egypt and the rest of the world can promote/influence the process by supporting the more moderate faction(s), offering international recognition of the "new" nation-state and advocating for, and attempting to influence Israel into offering recognition of the "new" nation-state and an end to the GAZA blockade, as a/the reward for forming such a government.
But all of this would depend on Israel's willingness to accept a separate and independent Palestinian state.
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1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)this post would have sparked a bit of discussion.
I guess not.
glacierbay
(2,477 posts)from the flame wars on other threads in the past few days. I know I am. Good news is that it looks like the Egyptian brokered ceasefire is going to take effect today.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)I don't expect the violence to stop any time soon
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But I think that THE PEOPLE on both sides of the conflict are tired of living in fear and burying their dead.
I think the politicians only gain from the violence because THE PEOPLE on both sides of the conflict see no alternative.
former9thward
(32,016 posts)The last time was when Clinton held a summit at Camp David in 2000. Israel offered a state consisting of all of Gaza and most of the West Bank with a few land swaps. Clinton supported the deal. The Palestinians rejected it and demanded new conditions designed to destroy the summit. It worked and the summit ended.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)Israel's "offer" was not for total statehood, they still want to keep control of Gaza and the West Bank because they fear having an "enemy state" so close to them.
Palestine claims they have already made enough concessions and will not take the deal unless they are offered complete independence..
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)My quick google of Camp David resulted in a bunch of partisan pieces ... some blaming Arafat for "just saying 'no' to everything Israel offered", others saying that "Israel's offer wasn't really an offer of an independent state."
Whose to know?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)it's difficult to discern what really happened at Camp David. There are plenty of partisan pieces, each blaming the other side. But that said, nothing precludes another attempt, other then the sides' refusal to come together.
I know this is a simplistic solution; but, why not try again, with the starting point not being what Israel is willing to give, or what the Palestinians will receive, but rather, the starting point could/should be in the Palestinians deciding what its governing authority would look like ... would it be Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, some other faction leading or a combination of factions.
Once that is set, then the discussion of what Israel gives up/Palestinians are given can be discussed with an internationally recognized nation-state. From what I've gathered, that seems to have been a failing of Camp David ... The was recognition of only a provisional (i.e., temporary) Palestinian authority.
And with respect to the borders ... since Israel is/was the creation of U.N./International Action, so too can be the setting of any Israeli/Palestinian borders.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)Whenever I see a post claiming one side or the other did everything in it's power to stop this madness my bullshit detector goes off. As a Jew I would love for Israel to be 100% in the right here but I don't see it.
former9thward
(32,016 posts)The UN of 2012 is Zionism equals Racism (Resolution 3379) and hates anything Israel. So, no, international action will not settle anything. Both the Bush and Obama administrations have boycotted UN conferences on Racism because they are so blatant in their hatred of Israel.
The establishment of a Palestinian state will not come about at once. Hamas came to power killing Fatah supporters in Gaza. Fatah, for the most part, rules the West Bank. There is no unity whatsoever in the Palestinian territories. To think they could forma government without a transition is dreaming. Also the economy of Gaza is a basket case. No stable nation could be built on it. I have been to the West Bank twice and they are doing much better but they could not support Gaza. So those things have to be worked out.
HopeHoops
(47,675 posts)That is the solution. I don't expect it to happen, but that's the one.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But I forgot this will not end well. Will pm you an actual answer though.
glacierbay
(2,477 posts)I used to have only 14 people who had me on ignore, now, because of my defense of Israel in the last few days, there are 24 people who have me on ignore, which I find ironic because I never use the ignore function.
I guess I hurt some feelings.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that a "defense of Israel" (just like the "Defense of Palestinian People) would be more of a hinderence to resolving the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, than working to a solution.
But that just me ... someone without a dog in the fight (other than what the U.S. does).
glacierbay
(2,477 posts)is that Israel has every right to defend itself against Hamas firing rockets into Israel. My wife and I do have a dog in this fight, my wife is Jewish, has family living in Tel Aviv, and she served in the IDF in the 70's, she was there for the Yom Kippur War.
But you are correct, this has been going on far too long and a solution is needed that will benefit both Israel and the Palestinian people and the region.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that Israel has every right to defend itself against missiles fire at her. Me question remains: how do air-strikes in Gaza equate to defending onself when there is no recognized Palestine authority with the ability to enforce internal discipline of the other factions that are jockeying for power, and are equally as violent towards Israel?
Even targetted assasinations of Hamas leadership might stop Hamas' operative from the firing missiles; but only those fired by Hamas.
glacierbay
(2,477 posts)There is no easy answer, it really went to shit when Hamas was elected and then proceeded to eliminate any threat to their rule, now you have different factions that Hamas can't control.
It's a big shit sandwich there.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)wouldn't the solution lie in the International community allowing Palestine (Hamas or any of the other factions) the space to consolidate its power into a Internationally recognized nation-state? That way it would have the ability to enforce internal discipline (of the factions operating within the newly recognized state) and be subject traditional diplomatic pressure. Further, If Israel is willing to recognize Palestine and end the blockade, then it won't be Israel dealing with the Palestinian, but the international community. It would also benefit Egypt, in that they can enhance their influence/credibility in the Arab world.
glacierbay
(2,477 posts)but will certain factions whose stated goal is the total destruction of Israel allow this to happen?
I like your ideas.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)The International Community make it clear that "total Destruction of Israel" is off the table, if that/those faction(s) wishes to exist in order to gain power and that this message be delivered by Egypt, or another Arab state.
justice1
(795 posts)How could anyone defend a $671 billion defense budget? Peace is not profitable.
rucky
(35,211 posts)Both sides need to get off this theocracy kick and establish a secular government that fiercely protects the right to free expression of religion and equal rights for all.
I know, I'm dreaming... but I'm not seeing any viable solutions anywhere else, either.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)John Lennon? ... Is that you?
