The ONLY place I find incessant discussion about the Civil War

[Are_grits_groceries]

is on DU. Among friends, family, Waffle House patrons and other groups or places where I find myself, that doesn't come up as a topic of discussion.

I would have to find one of those regressive groups of Neanderthals in order to hear it as much as I do here. The other place might be among historians who pick over every aspect of the war.

Lots of people harp about the need for the South to get over it. Newsflash: Southerners aren't the only people who need to get over it. It is pulled out on some thread every week and used to smack everybody in the region around.

There needs to be a separate forum where those who want to drag it out or drag out some fulmination about the South can go and blast away. There are many people on DU who are endlessly pounded with screeds about this area. We would like to spend the energy moving forward and beating back any serious efforts by the morons to roll back history.

I'm sure this OP and me will be smashed. Flame away.

[WolverineDG]

1. I hear you

but you're talking to a brick wall. The ones who want to blame the South for everything will never see themselves as part of the problem.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

2. Well of course you never hear talk of the "Civil War"...

the south never fought a "Civil War" The south fought the "War of Northern Aggression"...I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

Personally, I love Civil War History, there is much that could be learned if more people knew more about it. Thus, your point is a valid one.

[Democracyinkind]

3. I do constantly.

But then, I work at a university and we tend to have other kinds of discussions about the civil war. My boss really enjoys spinning counterfactuals about Little Round Top, which should be a familiar topic to anyone who posts in civil war threads on DU.

[Bluenorthwest]

4. Waffle House donated 100,000 dollars to Rove's Crossroads Pac....

Not a surprise because the company has supported Mitt since 2004 or so with piles of money.
So I'd never find out what you guys talk about at the Awful House. Why would I give my money to Mitt, via a breakfast? I can make my own breakfast, thanks.

[Paladin]

6. And Cop A Nice Superiority Complex, As Well.

Happy dining.......

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Sorry, I don't give my custom to right wing companies if I can help it.

And I most certainly don't go out of my way to plug them as a regular old company. The OP is holding the WH crowd up as some standard or metric, if they don't discuss it at Waffel House, well it is not worth discussing. I reject that bullshit as bullshit.
I'm a gay person, we do not give our money to those who hate us, and if that bugs you, I don't give a fuck.

[Are_grits_groceries]

12. ...sigh...

Here we go.
I go to The Waffle to people watch. You can learn a lot about different kinds of people there. I am not speaking solely about rednecks either. It certainly is ONE metric that can be used to judge what is on people's minds.

Remain in your hermetically sealed superior bubbles if you want to. That's why you never know your enemy or learn who might be your friends.

BTW I am gay. I didn't know that you are the royal 'We' that sets the standards. I try not to spend my money at antigay places.

Those on this subthread certainly jumped with both feet. Hit dog hollers.

[one_voice]

41. You're right...

you can learn a lot about different people, and that means going to places that sometimes aren't in line with your politics or aren't 'in your bubble'. My son 'people watches' he goes on Black Friday just for that. He often uses what he sees for papers he has to do in school. Not just shoppers but workers too. That sounds creepier than it is, LOL..he had/has communication classes he takes and has to give speeches it's one of the subjects he's used. He's also done, fracking and Citizens United.

Anyway, Waffle House is just one example, most people don't take the time to see who the place they frequent donate to politically or otherwise. It never dawns on them to do that. They go to places because it's convenient, they like their coffee, their this or that, whatever the reason and you usually end up with a nice large cross of people.

My sister loves the Waffle House by where she lives she tells me there's all kinds of people that go there, I've never been inside one. Even if I told her they donated to Rove's Super Pac I don't know if she'd stop going there--I can't remember what they make she likes but there's something she loves. She doesn't go often, every couple months.

My daughter and I go to a locally owned bagel shop and it's owned by liberals BUT a lot of right wing people frequent the place, and we sit and listen. Especially before the election. It was interesting.

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. Mmmmm...anti-South-Bashing Lecture #9,138

This should be delicious.

[Fumesucker]

11. The South bashing is stupid, it's not nearly that simplistic

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. I think you're responding to the wrong post

[Fumesucker]

25. I took your rather cryptic post as being pro-South bashing

If I was wrong I apologize.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. Oh, I'm just here for the entertainment

And the popcorn.

[Javaman]

8. You mean like this thread? nt

[Scootaloo]

55. If it weren't for Grits, odds are...

Most of the shit Grits complains about would never be posted.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Occam's Razor

Maybe just maybe there is a renewed interest in the Civil War at DU and among the larger population because of the release of the movie "Lincoln".

[Are_grits_groceries]

13. This has gone on long before

the movie Lincoln was even a thought. Otherwise, I would buy Occam's Razor as an explanation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. It Has Rekindled My Interest In The Civil War

Last time it was similarly kindled is when Gettysburg came out.

[zazen]

10. well that's because racism has never existed in the North

They were 100% abolitionist and couldn't wait to create jobs and political and social role for former slaves. They were doing such a good job integrating all of the immigrants into healthy, well-paying jobs, and providing education for their kids, that they just wanted to extend that to the rest of the country. Truly--the uniform righteousness, piety, and social justice in the Northern colonies was and is a wonder to behold.

That silly busing matter in Boston as late as the 1970s? Meh. I mean, how could a society with a 350-year-old tradition of devotion to God, rigorous education, and moral activism be replete with screaming racists who didn't want black children near their precious white babies? It must have been Southerners who moved up there and posed as Yankees. They're saints, I tell ya.

[OldDem2012]

23. To back up your post, in 1641, Massachusetts was the first American colony to legalize slavery....

In 1712 in New York, an alleged slave revolt in New York City leads to violent outbreaks. Nine whites are killed and eighteen slaves are executed. New York also declares it illegal for blacks, Indians, and slaves to murder other blacks, Indians, and slaves. And finally, New York forbids freed blacks, Indians, and mulatto slaves from owning real estate and holding property.

In 1715, Rhode Island legalizes slavery.

I could go on, but these are inconvenient truths about slavery nobody seems to want to discuss.

Slavery and the Making of America

[bvar22]

47. Pop Quiz:

Which state holds the World Record for the most black men lynched in a single day?

[Jennicut]

56. Ah, New England. Home of the infamous witch trials.

I love New England (I have spent my entire life in Connecticut) but we have done lots of crappy things to people too. There are racists everywhere and slavery existed in the entire US during that time.

[edhopper]

14. Funny

but last time I was in a Souvenir Shop in South Carolina, half the stuff was Civil war and Confederate memorabilia.
So this is bullshit.

[Fumesucker]

15. The locals don't buy souvenirs

They are there for the tourists, you know the gullible and acquisitive people that come from somewhere else other than where the souvenir is being sold.

Those want some kitschy piece to remind them of the fantasy called a vacation they are living at the moment.

ETA: And five will get you three that the stuff was made in China anyway.

[edhopper]

18. Sure, just for tourist.

the South really doesn't think about the Civil War anymore.

Hmmmm

Where's the largest bass relief sculpture in the world? And who does it immortalize?

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

[OldDem2012]

19. And here we have yet another post lumping an entire region together because of what...

....some small group decided to do on the side of a mountain.

[Hoyt]

57. Stone Mountain was also site of big Klan rallies even in 1950s.

The vibe there is awful because of it.

[Fumesucker]

21. It's been there since I was a kid

In fact if you look at the areas that are brightest red around the blue of Atlanta, it's not the rural counties with the old southerners, it's the suburban ones with lots of transplants from other parts of the country.

DeKalb county where Stone Mountain is happens to be is blue and not red, fifty years ago it was largely rural and white, today it's near-urban with a lot of minorities.

Edited for grammar.

[edhopper]

45. irrelevant point

not in discussion.

[Fumesucker]

46. You mean it's a point that doesn't fit your agenda and preconceived notions..

Not the same thing as irrelevant.

[antigone382]

50. Using a carving completed forty years ago to characterize the South today is your point?

k...

[Aristus]

22. My whole family is from the South. We had a 1993 family reunion at Stone Mountain.

As we entered the greensward facing the sculpture, I, being the pro-Union, (and pro-union...) PNW-living provocateur, said: "Those are the worst portraits of Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman I've ever seen!"

My mother, and several other of my relatives said: "SHHHHHHH! You can't talk like that down here!"

[Bake]

60. In the South we don't spell it "bass relief"

Anywhere else, for that matter ...

Just sayin'.

Bake

[MNBrewer]

16. I grew up in rural southern Georgia, and heard LOTS of talk about the civil war.

Maybe things are different right now, but I doubt it.

[Chiyo-chichi]

20. Oh, so you are NOT talking about the breakup of the folk duo, The Civil Wars?

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/07/citing-irreconcilable-differences-the-civil-wars-cancels-tour-dates/

[nolabear]

29. *sob!* They're breaking my heart, those crazy kids.

Barton Hollow is wonderful.

[Chiyo-chichi]

32. I'm with 'ya.

They were very successful for what I could call a "folk duo."
And I never got to see them in concert.

[Rider3]

26. Civil War?

Just curious....Your post is the first I've read on Civil War. Do you simply mean the battle between the Red/Blue states? Or, do you actually mean THE Civil War? In any event, if you look at any political website, any political blog, you will find the battle of Red/Blue states continuing. And, it will continue. Where's the surprise in that? And, if you mean THE Civil War, I just don't see those posts, I guess.

[Zen Democrat]

27. I'm in the South, my great-great grandfathers fought for the Confederacy, I'm a yellow-dog Democrat.

And so is my entire Southern family. This regional hatred needs to stop. I'll bet there are lots of right-wing thugs in California and New York, just as I know many socialists in Texas.

[nolabear]

28. LOL!! I SO agree. The South doesn't talk about the Civil War. The South talks about being POOR!

A lot comes out of that, some bigotry, some distrust of government, some wonderful coping and some love for identity. But "The Waw" really isn't on peoples' lips at all.

I always find DU's view of the South outdated by about fifty years. News Flash: the largest African American and immigrant population in the country is NOT in Minnesota, children! I hang up here with he soft bigotry of the PNW and just shake my head because there ARE no black people here! Okay, few enough that you actually notice. Good God, in the South the shrimping industry is dominated by the Vietnamese, African American owned small restaurants bump up against Chinese and Indian ones, Mexican immigrants damn near rebuilt New Orleans after Katrina and many stayed...it is NOT the way people who don't spend time there think it is. And the hard work people do to coexist and appreciate rather than hate on one another is truly amazing.

Yes, bigots abound, I'm not minimizing what needs to be done, but there's some amazing stuff going on too, and the Civil War is irrelevent to 90% of the population.

[marions ghost]

34. Agree

Some DUers are surprisingly backward in their views of the South.

[Texasgal]

30. I've been saying that for years.

As a native Texan. My grandparents and GREAT grandparents never talked about the Civil War. It just wasn't the topic of conversation.

[kentauros]

44. Growing up here in Texas

I can't remember anyone talking about the Civil War outside of a classroom. And what little I remember of any history, Texas or otherwise, was that we were involved more as a matter of convenience than conviction. I may be wrong on that, way wrong, but I just don't recall us covering much of the Civil War in Texas history. It was like it wasn't all that important compared to the rest of our history.

[kiva]

31. Waving the bloody shirt...

is very popular here.

[zeemike]

33. It may be because the Civil War never really ended.

The north won the military battle, but once Lincoln was out of the way Johnson who was a clear racist and pro slavery let the south win the battle over slavery...black people had a short period of semi freedom and then the Klan was allowed to return them to slavery...and the Jim Crow south was born.
When you vanquish your enemy you don't let them keep the very thing you fought them over....it would be like if we allowed the Germans to keep Fascism and continue persecuting the Jews.

Had reconstruction continued and the injustice corrected then once and for all time then there would be no fond reminiscing of the south on either side....but that did not happen and we still bear the burdens of it.

[Uncle Joe]

59. The only Supreme Court Justice to vote against Jim Crow came from a slave holding family in Kentucky

The rest of that Supreme Court were all appointed by Northern Republican Presidents and approved by a Northern dominated Senate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson

Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), is a landmark United States Supreme Court decision in the jurisprudence of the United States, upholding the constitutionality of state laws requiring racial segregation in public facilities under the doctrine of "separate but equal."[1]

The decision was handed down by a vote of 7 to 1 with the majority opinion written by Justice Henry Billings Brown and the dissent written by Justice John Marshall Harlan. "Separate but equal" remained standard doctrine in U.S. law until its repudiation in the 1954 Supreme Court decision Brown v. Board of Education.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marshall_Harlan


John Marshall Harlan (June 1, 1833 – October 14, 1911) was a Kentucky lawyer and politician who served as an associate justice on the Supreme Court. He is most notable as the lone dissenter in the Civil Rights Cases (1883), and Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), which, respectively, struck down as unconstitutional federal anti-discrimination legislation and upheld Southern segregation statutes. These dissents, among others, led to his nickname, "the Great Dissenter."

Harlan was born into a prominent Kentucky slaveholding family whose presence in the region dated back to 1779. Harlan's father was James Harlan, a lawyer and politician; his mother, Elizabeth, née Davenport, was the daughter of a pioneer from Virginia. After attending school in Frankfort, Harlan enrolled at Centre College, where he was a member of Beta Theta Pi and graduated with honors. Though his mother wanted Harlan to become a merchant, James insisted that his son follow him into the legal profession, and Harlan joined his father's law practice in 1852. Yet while James Harlan could have trained his son in the office as was the norm in that era, he sent John to attend law school at Transylvania University in 1853, where George Robertson and Thomas Alexander Marshall were among his instructors.[3]

None of those Justices were appointed by Johnson, he only served one term and the Republicans from the North dominated Congress for the last half of the 19th century.

[zeemike]

66. True enough but it was not a north south thing.

Abolitionist did not have the Republican party all to themselves...just as the pro slavery did not have the democrats or the south all to themselves...there were literally families split on slavery.
The radical Republicans lost out in the long run to the "moderate" wing who could care less about what happened to black people in Alabama...
Just as today there are many good people in the south...even the majority and many bad people in the north.
It is made into a regional thing to tap into our tendency to nationalism....the us and them device.

[MadHound]

36. So you decided to fill this week's Civil War quota, eh?

Look, if you don't want to deal with Civil War threads, don't open them. If you don't want want to hear people complaining about the South, get your fellow Southerners from flying that treacherous flag they so love.

I really don't understand why you're complaining, after all, in many ways the South won. The South has had a special place in politics for decades, and Southern culture has, sadly, spread throughout the country. Hell, if your fellow Southerners keep it up, y'all might get your chance to stab this country in the back, again, and secede.

But you're all bent out of shape because people here dare to point out the bigotry of the South? Have you really looked around you? It ain't as rosy as you believe. What was the university where students were burning shit up because Obama won? Oh, yeah, Ol' Miss.

[cordelia]

39. You have the audacity to use the word "bigotry"

after that bigoted screed you just posted?

Really?

You seriously think all Southerners fly the piece of shit hateful rag? We don't.

You bemoan Southern culture?

Do you hate all Southerners equally? I will assume that you do, including the 31% of over 9 million Georgians that are African American.

[MadHound]

42. Do I think all Southerners are bigots, no

Do I think that all Southerners fly the flag, no. But having traveled extensively through the South, and the rest of the country. I recognize that bigotry is present throughout the country, but it is the most oppressive down in the South. Hell, the South is still killing people because of their skin color, hello?!

What, we're supposed to pretend it is all fine and dandy, that the South is no worse than any other region of the country when we can travel through the South and see with our own eyes that simply isn't the case? Has the South gotten better, yes, but it is a long way still from catching up.

As far as Southern culture goes, it has its good aspects, music, literature, etc. But the spread of evangelical Christianity and other parts of Southern culture is not a good thing.

You think I'm being bigoted in these observations, fine. Think what you want, but I suggest that you take a clear eyed look around the South. Things ain't as hunky dorey as y'all would like to think.

[bvar22]

49. I disagree.

I have had the privilege of traveling and living in most parts of the USA.
While poverty, ignorance, and fundamentalism IS a problem is The South,
the raw racism and bigotry on public display in Idaho and western Montana
eclipses [i[by far anything I have witnessed in The Old South.
It is not an accident the the HQ of the Aryan Nation is in Idaho.

Most Western States have not yet internalized the fact that they are direct beneficiaries of
Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing waged by the Army of The North against the Native Americans.
It is ironic that the Army of the North, after winning a War to Free the Black Man,
immediately turned West and waged a War of Extermination against the Red Man.
The Old South had absolutely nothing to do with THAT one.

[MadHound]

54. I think you need to brush up on your history.

Why is Idaho and Western Montana filled with raw racism? Because it was colonized by Confederates fleeing the South after the Civil War.

As far as Native American genocide goes, all Americans are responsible for that one, North and South. Or have you forgotten such memorable moments like the Trail of Tears. That is a stain on our entire country, North and South.

[LanternWaste]

37. The only place I find discussion on the Napoleonic Wars is at Arby's.

The only place I find discussion on the Napoleonic Wars is at Arby's. The Grande Armee lost, people need to get over it.

[slackmaster]

38. We should put it aside and focus on more recent events like the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

[grantcart]

40. I am very sympathetic to your OP

I am very sympathetic to your general point.


I agree that there is too much South bashing and also that DUers in red areas in general deserve great credit and support.


My problem with your OP is the ubiquitous presence of the Confederate Flag.


If they really didn't want to think about it, or perpetuate its basic themes then why has it become such an iconic ever present symbol?


I suppose that some see it as a cultural symbol of a region.


I see it as an attempt keep alive a romantic vision of a seditious attack on the constitution and all of the racist sub themes that some are attached to it.


I would like to believe the sentiment you address is widespread but the ever present presentation of the symbol that I truly hate wasn't so common. I will believe that the general population of the South is over the Civil War when the only place you can see the Confederate flag is in museums.

[SQUEE]

63. Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia?

I have lived in Texas and the South all my life except for 6 years in the US army and 3 overseas. I believe more than half the draw of the so called rebel flag is in its dynamic styling.
Basically it looks cool, as opposed to actual official flags of the Confederate States of America.
It has become a huge " Fuck You", it is a leather jacket and a pair of Ray-bans to many people running around wearing or flying them. To many "rednecks" it is a source of pride in their outsider status. In current usage it is as connected to its roots as , oh , lets say a Guy Fawkes Mask
(The irony of that piece of iconography gaining cachet with the circle A crowd is breathtaking).
Symbols have no inherent value, just what we add to them by OUR individual beliefs and ideas.
Such as the swastika/ haken kreuz, or the pentacle/ pentagram. or even the cross.
so now back to my title, the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia was only representative of one unit and its loyalty to its state and each mans dedication to his neighbors and kinsman, people have turned a piece of cloth or vinyl or ink on a shirt into the symbol it is today.

[The Second Stone]

43. Interesting OP. Could it possibly be about

the Civil War?

[RomneyLies]

48. You should see the civil war miniature gaming sites. n/t

[graham4anything]

51. The people who support flying the dixie flag are the same ones Pro-NRA Pro-Gun, the Ron Paul fans

Why are guns on a democrat/liberal site?
Used to be liberal=peace and guns are not peace.

As many blacks frequent DU, there should be ZERO love the Dixie Flag thoughts here. It is an insult and abomination.

[Hoyt]

58. Agree. Never met a person with a confederate flag worthy of friendship.

[rrneck]

52. It seemed to me that

civil war reenactors rated somewhere below trekkies on the nerd index. That being said, the south still suffers from the effects of the Civil War and racism but not the way most people seem to think. The wounds of war take a long time to heal, especially when you're on the losing side both militarily and ideologically.

I lived most of my life in the south, but nowhere near there now. I live near (can't afford to live in it) an affluent, very liberal community surrounded by a more conservative region. While there is no real difference in the level of racism in the region, it's overshadowed by the classism of my "liberal" community.

The south is the poorest, most backward region in this country. But nobody living there deserves that fate any more than anybody living in any other region. Racism is not wrecking the south or the country in general. The real problem is the unrepentant classism on both sides of the political aisle. I expect such snobbery from conservatives and their deluded constituents clinging to the illusion of upper middle class status. But people claiming to be progressives should know better. And people who claim to understand politics would do well to not ignore a voting bloc whose ancestors, as I understand it, comprised the bulk of both the Continental army and the Confederacy.

The "redneck southern mindset" has less to do with racism than with an extreme distrust of aristocracy and elitism. They (we) are dirty, drunken, combative critters who don't give two dry shits in a bucket about what you say or what you own. The only thing that matters is what you do.

The south is about to find out how badly they have been betrayed by the Republican party. If Democrats are smart, they will put their money where their mouth is and do something to deserve the loyalty of a people who have been stirring up shit from the Mason Dixon line to Hadrian's Wall for the last two thousand years. One way or another, you will have to deal with them (us). Put up or shut up.

[coalition_unwilling]

53. I always enjoy tremendously the DU Civil War threads (and try to participate

vigorously and even vociferously in them whenever I can). James McPherson calls the Civil War the "2nd American Revolution" and that helps explain why it remains a topic of such fascination.

One thing I have had to do, as a result of DU and its Southern members, is to rethink and correct my own South-bashing tendencies. I have made some progress in this regard but I would still like to reserve the right to poke fun at certain Southerners when the occasion arises. (One of my personal favs to bash is the late Senator Jesse Helms.)

You can always trash a thread if it gets too onerous.

[NYC Liberal]

61. I'd be all for moving those discussions to a "Civil War" forum.

[madinmaryland]

62. Nice post, Jefferson Davis. (just kidding)...

You do realize this a political discussion board. There are still relevant issues left over from the Civil War and there are clearly still resentments held in regards to the results of it.

When one political party uses the "Southern Strategy" and racially encoded words from the Jim Crow era, it does merit conversation.

[Uncle Joe]

64. Regionalism like racism lends power to the Republican Party; they thrive on divide and conquer.

We play in to their hands when we indulge in hatred whether it be based on race or region.

Those are the two components which make/made a successful "Southern Strategy" work in the first place.

Having said that I believe the times are changing anyway and the "Southern Strategy" is losing it's power as our national demographics change but I see no reason to make the divide and conquer Party's job easier.

[Are_grits_groceries]

65. If you want to find resentments come to SC.

People who know nothing about the war will make them up.

Discussion of issues that are still felt today do merit discussion. However, a lot of posts broad brush everybody in the region, don't recognize any signs of progress or even try to get over the Civil War. Until I read some threads on DU, I didn't realize how much some people hate this overall area and everything in it. Many mention the war.

In addition, if I try to tell somebody about what I am seeing, it is dismissed as if I have no clue. My perspective does not speak for all by any means, but what I observe here is relevant. If you tell me about what you have witnessed around you, why would I jump in and disregard your opinion. i may have read something about it, but I would be better off listening to your views to get a more nuanced picture.

I taught down here. What has been and is being done to students, particularly poor ones of any race, is a sin and a shame. I do what I can even now. I would like to drag our entire legislature out into the streets and make them clean the schools and see what they have wrought. I do see the problems that exist for a myriad of reasons in a lot of areas.

I have no family and friends because I won't listen to one ounce of their bullshit. That's my choice. I am not asking anybody to accept the status quo or not be disgusted with certain people and practices. I am asking not to be lumped in with all the people who do make this a nasty place to be.
Some people add a caveat and say they aren't talking about me or those like me. Yes they are.

So Bless their hearts,
Judah Benjamin (and I do have the gold. Took it to England)

[B2G]

67. Lived in the south for 20 years now. Never once heard it mentioned.