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Anonymous did not stop Rove from stealing the election.
Obama's campaign stopped Rove from stealing the election. They did it by winning so many swing states that Ohio became irrelevant.
The fact that Karl Rove acted as if Ohio was going to go red any day now doesn't prove that he "knew" the fix was in. It only proves that like many of his lackeys and fellow-travelers he had trouble understanding that 2012 is not 2004.
I believe there was tampering in 2004. I do not believe that Anonymous deserves the credit for a victory that was the product of the collective labor of thousands of people.
That is all.
The Plaid Adder
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Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
aandegoons
(473 posts)Obama won because he was a better candidate. Many millions of people did their part. Election boards did their part. Anon may have done their part.
I don't see how any of it is taking away from the win?
ananda
(28,864 posts)..
RepublicansRZombies
(982 posts)Just as Gore and Kerry won.
Anon , or whomever did the hacking, was preventing another stolen election.
Which part of that don't people understand?
If you don't understand they stole the elections in 2000 and 2004, then you haven't been paying attention.
Why would anyone take those people's opinion seriously on this election?
bestobdii
(4 posts)
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts). . . They are claiming -- and I really don't know if their claim is true or not at this point -- that they thwarted an attempt by Rove, et al., to fraudulently steal the election. Their claim in no way mitigates the credit going to President Obama: the President won over voters, no doubt about it. Anonymous is not claiming credit for that. But if, in fact, they really did prevented an attempted theft of the election (and as someone who has been an IT professional for the past 30 years, I can say they have laid out a pretty plausible case), all that means is that as a result of their efforts, all of the votes that were cast for the President were counted as such. None of that in any way diminishes the fact that the President won over those voters. The two things (i.e., the President's victory and Anonymous' claim, if indeed it is true) are in no wise mutually exclusive.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)
ladjf
(17,320 posts)Therefore, I think we should continue to put pressure on the Feds to work on tighter
computer security on all Federal elections. There's no use risking a couple of percentage points to the crooks.
brush
(53,782 posts)And I worked on his campaign for months but I still think Rove tried to steal it in Ohio. I think SofS Husted got cold feet with all the attorneys and poll watchers training their eyes on him so he didn't pull the switcheroo that was planned. He probably figured with all the other states coming in unexpectedly for the President (because of our very strong ground game) Ohio's vote wasn't as critical as once thought. He probably also figured it wasn't worth going to jail for Rove's fat ass, thus the Rove meltdown on FOX.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)It's kind of ridiculous at points. If he was half as good at what he did as a lot of DUers think, we'd all be cheering Bush's fourth term in office by now.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Just like Kerry won in 2004. This time somebody stopped the hacking. We have our suspicions.
What we need to do, and Obama will do it, is make sure elections can't be hacked. But as of today they sure as hell can be hacked.
This time Rove was stopped. Obama won fair and square.
Care Acutely
(1,370 posts)Wish I could rec this as many times as the republicans think I voted.
Cha
(297,274 posts)deny the reality of the thousands of people volunteering for OFA and all that incredible GOTV BLUE.
Interesting take... rove was in a time warp.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)But it is good that people were watching anyway.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)I do believe they stopped Rove from stealing Ohio. President Obama's excellent ground game and campaign strategies would have ultimately won the election with or without Ohio, but I still have a strong sense that somebody ensured Rove couldn't steal Ohio the way he had been able to in previous elections.
JI7
(89,250 posts)remember, that was one state that Romney never seemed to lead in. even during his highest point after the first debate he still could not get ahead in Ohio.
the auto bailout was a huge thing but Obama took advantage of that in his campaigning in the state.
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)but the votes mysteriously started flipping for McMonkey.
The elections were stolen in 04 and 08, and anybody that doesn't believe it is in denial.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)In 2008 Obama won. Remember?
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)2000 and 2004. Late night and a coupla drinks later.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)JI7
(89,250 posts)TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)I'm so sick of people taking this unsubstantiated story for proven fact.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)
Tigress DEM
(7,887 posts)Whether Anonymous DID or did NOT prevent the theft of an election, the victory is STILL that everyone got out and VOTED.
You are right about that part, but it's possible it took work on both fronts so don't make this some stupid war within the DEMs.
IF it takes hackers on our side to keep the voting honest until we can prevent the rethugs from trying to subvert the process -- and they DID try to subvert it or do you deny all the other reports out there about voter suppression and gerrymandering districts etc... ?
THOSE dirty bastards were CHEATING in any way they can. They owned the damm voting machines. They owned the Sec of State in Ohio. They put out 39 patches for some still not fully explained reason. It sure looked like they were trying to steal an election. They didn't succeed for whatever reason and I'm willing to give 1000% credit to the Ohio voters and the Obama ground game.
Maybe another 20% goes to ANYONE who throws something at Karl Rove.
It's all good.
NO ONE IS Saying that if the votes hadn't been there in the first place that we'd have manufactured them.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)Lots and lots of money was spent to ensure a victory.
So much so that I expect failure was not considered optional.
We'll never know for sure what caused their derailment, but I'm quite certain the financial backers did not want this result.
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)
AllyCat
(16,188 posts)was in on Ohio and maybe some other states too with that mysterious "patch" that was supposed to fix the machines a few days before the election. Even without Ohio, Obama would have won, but I think that state might have had something going on.
Anonymous did not win the election though, you are right.
I don't see why so many feel they have to try and discredit Anonymous in order to give credit to Obama for the win. I think both that Obama and his campaign along with the people all around that worked on it deserve huge credit for the win. I also would like to think that if Anonymous stopped Rove in Ohio, they deserve a lot of credit for stopping this machine that has stolen elections in the past, and even perhaps might have with a few more tweaks have stolen this one too.
Once Ohio was no longer part of the mix if Anonymous did in fact stop them, perhaps the Rove machine would have turned off the gears that might have flipped Florida and one or two other key states. Anonymous mentions three states being wired in to their servers, which likely was Florida and perhaps another key state. If they had all been flipped, it might have been a different story. Probably the Rove machine knew that once the Ohio effort was stopped, the effort in Florida to overturn it's count was doomed, and the only outcome besides extra electoral votes from it would have been an increasing likelihood that they'd get caught, so once Ohio was stopped, they probably stopped the whole machine from further action, knowing they'd been beaten. And perhaps even if they'd flipped all of the states they'd planned to flip, it still might not have been enough to win, which the Obama campaign deserves huge credit for.
This election does really show that if we vote enough, that even if there's an attempt to steal the election, we can overcome those efforts.
If Anonymous did stop this effort, it hopefully will put a crimp on what those behind Rove might try in the future, though it will possibly also make them more stealthy about trying to figure out what Anonymous did in every corner to find a way to keep them from doing it in the future, if the Rove machine is allowed to continue to operate in subsequent elections without any kind of efforts to investigate and prosecute them. I'm glad that the radar has been turned on Rove and company, and hopefully the Justice department actually goes through and tries to investigate what might have happened. Until they do, and until they stop doing what they are doing to the likes of Bradley Manning, Julian Assange, and other whistle blowers, I can't blame Anonymous for not coming forward and laying out details of what they found, as it might also expose how they did what they did to keep it off the table, in case our justice department doesn't do something about prosecuting those involved, or in case we don't finally see the stupidity of having our elections depend on a privatized and private set of electronic voting machine apparatus with no accountability that allows for this kind of manipulation to occur.
AllyCat
(16,188 posts)
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Ultimately, no one can know what happened. So everything said on the subject seems merely to be an outward projection of everyone's bubbling inner turmoil, paranoia, fear and reactionary conservative kneejerk responses to the THREAT that there world is not as knowable as they wish it to be.
To me, it is all delicious entertainment.
DesertDiamond
(1,616 posts)hacked voting machines. I think it was a team effort. Obama, the millions of hardworking campaign workers and voters... and perhaps some people who prevented another theft of another election. I'm sorry, I think it's quite possible we owe Anonymous a slice of the credit.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Because the machines you're complaining about were not being used in 2000.
2000 was caused by the GOP delaying FL's recount until the SCOTUS stopped it. There was no computer hacking required - just legal hacking.
There are claims of hacking in 2004 in Ohio, but the final results were within the MoE of the last polls. That's not evidence of hacking.
PossumSqueezins
(184 posts)He won by about two. I think they flipped 3% on machines and then realized that it was probably futile and decided not to risk it. And we Ohioans have 7 other battleground states to thank....and North Carolina....you suck.
Ford_Prefect
(7,901 posts)Our state government was hog-tied and then stolen from us by Art Pope and the Koch brothers. They bought the GOP and much of the local news media in a 20 year hostile takeover project that could not have succeeded without Citizens United. The current GOP in North Carolina is an absolutist cult run by the Oil and Tobacco Lobby. It no more represents the majority of republican or North Carolina voters than the national Tea Party does. They stole the House in 2010 and gerrymandered the legislative map in an effort to eliminate opposition and silence all progressive and moderate voters regardless of party. This after 20 years of Democratic Governors. As it was they only won here by a small majority after the most excessively expensive race for every seat and vote, and by the same ugly suppress the vote tactics as the national GOP used. Just ask us GOTV workers here if it was a walkover for the lunatic party.
I realize that in Ohio such an outrage could never occur...
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)
People need to understand what really happened in NC.
jsmirman
(4,507 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)It's a perfectly reasonable result - that's what margin or error means.
If they were flipping votes, why would they stop? They've already broken the law. They're already in there. And a President Romney would never investigate. Yet a President Obama might.
The incentives are all lined up to keep going, not get part way and stop. And Anonymous is claiming they stopped it all, not let Rove get part way and then blocked him.
As for this:
You're an asshole.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)Whatever some yahoo claims on the internet. Anyone could say they are a representative of "anonymous" and say this crap. And even if it is a real spokesman, it sounds like a joke being played to me, as the most likely explanation as a couple of duers have commented.
On the Road
(20,783 posts)What is really disturbing to me is the support people have for claims of interfering in an election-day get-out-the-vote effort. If anyone had done the same thing to the Obama campaign, people would be screaming. Unless Anonymous has better evidence than they've revealed, this should be investigated and prosecuted. You can't deliberately screw up an election on the basis of rumors.
JohnnyRingo
(18,635 posts)Usually the most simple explaination is correct.
Oswald killed Kennedy, the govt isn't hiding a flying saucer, and Karl Rove didn't have a vote stealing matrix running on the 2012 election. Conspiracy theories, while they're based in conspiracy fact, usually have a puzzle piece or two that have to be beaten in with a hammer to fit.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)Whether KKKarl had anything to do with it is a separate question. But the electronic flipping did defeat four different front runners, one after the other, over 12 distinctly separate votes, and left the least likely guy standing.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1848265
JohnnyRingo
(18,635 posts)I live in a part of Ohio that uses the infamous Diebold touch screen machines. Trumbull and nearby Mahoning Counties are 2:1 democrat so they would be prime targets for vote switching in a Rove conspiracy.
We received these machines in 2004 when we and almost all of Ohio replaced the old punch card machines with touch screens that had no paper trail to determine after the election how those units actually voted, other than a computer memory chip. When Ohio went suspiciously for Bush in the '04 election, a public cry went out to add a paper print-out for accountability. Vote switching was cited as the reason.
At first, Diebold said that the technology was impossible, but we elected a Democratic governor that year, and they quickly found a way to print the ballots on a paper roll (like a register receipt) when governor Ted Strickland threatened to end their contract immediately.
I"m a precinct worker here in Trumbull County, and as such, I and three others (2 dems 2 Repub) are largely responsible for security of these paper rolls at our precinct. Here's how that works: The rolls are loaded into the machine and the door is locked (There's only one key). The moment a voter casts their vote, the machine begins printing the vote, line by line, while the voter watches. When the roll fills up, one republican and one democrat replace the roll, and all four workers (two from each party) sign the roll and place it in a locked steel box. Accounting, such as machine serial # and sequential paper roll #, are recorded in a book and signed off by all four of us. The vote total for the machine are printed on the last roll as a final report. At the end of the day, those rolls are returned in the locked box by car to the BOE by one Representative of each party. The rolls are then stored for (I think) two years in case there's a problem that requires accounting.
"Back door" programs can still be installed to change votes, but it's much easier to get caught doing so now as well. Unfortunately, in spite of my advice, many people do not watch the print out, though I've never seen a discrepancy myself, nor has anyone ever complained of one. If they did, the paper roll is to be removed at once by a member of each party and examined for accuracy.
Unlike in 2004, I now have a great deal of confidence in this system.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)My understanding is that the central tabulators are where the electronic flipping occurs. Counties without central tabulators do not exhibit this signature.
Do you know what your precinct vote totals are? Do they print to the recording tape? This would allow you to verify that the proper count for your precinct is recorded in the official totals. The counties that use humans in lieu of central tabulators seem to be more hack-proof.
http://www.opednews.com/populum/pagem.php?f=Rigged-Elections-for-Romne-by-Michael-Collins-121022-13.html
on edit> the 65,777 votes were flipped to Romney from both Santorum and Paul.
[img]
[/img]
In each case, Mitt Romney was the beneficiary. For example, without vote flipping, Romney would have lost the Wisconsin, and Ohio, and Illinois primaries as well as primaries in other states. A comprehensive review will appear in Part III of this series.
http://coto2.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/part-ii-rigged-elections-for-romney/
JohnnyRingo
(18,635 posts)I forget how many of those there were, but my card reader, that has to clear and prepare a card for the next voter uses it, keeps a running tally. This card doesn't record the vote itself, it just makes certain the voter only casts one vote, then it has to be cleared before it can be used again.
Diebold machines are not connected to a network. They are just plugged into a power outlet They don't have a transmitter to connect it to a network, and it wouldn't matter if they did. The Paper account shows how many votes were for Romney and how many for Obama, and they must match the machine count to the last vote. Keep in mind, this printout is done right in front of the voter, and they can't pull the card out and leave the machine before it's finished doing so.
If the machine count and the paper tally don't match exactly, we have to stay and go through the books voters signed, the paper printout, and the machine count, until we find the discrepancy. If we can't find it, the event is recorded, signed by all four precinct workers, and sent under lock & key (with a tamper proof seal that has a serial #), and sent with the also sealed machines to the county board for review.
As you can imagine, this is very labor intensive with all the signing, verification, and security procedures, but it's an election, and I can tell you we all take this very seriously or we wouldn't volunteer.
People who want to think anonymous stepped in like the Lone Ranger and stopped Rove from perpetrating a computer scam from his underground computer lab, are recycling stale conspiracy theories from 2004 when Bob Taft and Ken Blackwell were in charge of counting our votes.
Democrat Ted Strickland took over as governor in 2005 and overhauled our electronic voting procedure. Now since 2011, we have Kasich and Husted in charge of our elections, but they focused on suppression instead of changing the procedure which would have been very expensive. Remember how the election went in 2008 for Ohio when we helped elect Barack Obama? That was because, just like this year, the election was above board with a verifiable paper trail that will be available for years to come.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)Electronic vote flipping doesn't change the total vote. It will always match your voter roll.
You would never be aware of electronic flipping unless you know the actual counts, how many votes each candidate received.
You should read the second link in my previous post. It gives quite a bit of detail about Ohio. What I think it is saying is that counties where the vote is reported by human transmission are not being hacked. Those that use a central tabulator are being hacked.
JohnnyRingo
(18,635 posts)The Diebold machine keeps track of how many votes were cast for each candidate. I thought I was clear, but you missed an important step in the procedure that prevents "voter flipping".
At the end of the day, when we unseal and pull the paper roll we have to have the machine print it's final report on the roll. On the paper is a tabulation that has to match the votes cast in the machine's memory exactly before we can sign off on it and lock it in a steel box with a tamper proof seal.
Remember, that vote was printed out right in front of the voter, and they can't pull out the card until it's finished doing so (think Clockwork Orange). Therefore, in the case of an audit or recount, the paper print out will reveal how people actually voted, vote by vote, regardless of what was stored in the machine's memory. Only those paper rolls are stored under lock and key for years in case the election is challenged. The machines are cleared for the next election so they become irrelevent. The log books we keep during the election (where we record and sign off on what the machines report for each candidate) are also stored and must confirm what the paper rolls indicate.
If the machine and paper print out tallies don't match at the close of election day, we have to stay and go through our sign in book, the paper rolls, and the digital machine count to find the discrepancy. If we can't figure it out, the roll is sequestered and the event is logged in our book for the county board to investigate. Personally, though many trusting voters ignore the paper print out, I've never heard of a complaint from a voter that his vote was incorrectly logged on a modern Diebold machine with a paper trail, and it's certainly never happened to me.
I have to mention that someone could indeed hack a machine to show an innacurate count, but because of that verified paper roll that was printed in front of each voter, evidence exists to prove fraud and an accurate count can be confirmed by hand counting each of those votes printed.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)I'll have to look at the results for your particular county. Which county is it?
JohnnyRingo
(18,635 posts)jsmirman
(4,507 posts)you've shared here.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,320 posts)You've explained your system better than any article I've read. Far better than anyone who claims there was some fraud. Their handwaving 'and then Karl Rove changed the votes' just doesn't stand up against an explanation like yours. And it's people like you, who put in the hours on the day, that ensure a fair election. Well done.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Credit where credit is due: The President and his amazing campaign workers, the Volunteers, and the People who got out and voted.
Done and done.
Frank Cannon
(7,570 posts)That would put Rove in Federal prison and ensure that the same shit they profess to be against wouldn't happen again.
But they haven't done that, so I think it's pretty clear that it's a bunch of bullshit.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Or they may actually be too afraid of showing it in public. Rove has a LOT of shadowy connections, you know.
randome
(34,845 posts)Nothing happened in the election except we won.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)fact would be dangerous.
None of this passes the smell test.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)If they did in fact, stop Rove and company from stealing Ohio, then that by itself would have already put them in serious danger of retaliation. But putting the evidence out for all to see? As much as I'd love to see that, Anon may gone into hiding, so to speak, until the time is right.
Rove's friends and associates are really a lot more dangerous than you realize; putting all of their cards on the table at the wrong times might prove disastrous for a group such as Anonymous.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You think Anonymous is actually anonymous? I bet the FBI has them scoped out 8 ways till sunday. And if what you are saying is true, a member of the FBI need only leak that info to the right source and ta-da, we never hear from Anonymous(TM) again.
No, if they did it and were afraid, they wouldn't have claimed credit.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And if what you are saying is true, a member of the FBI need only leak that info to the right source and ta-da, we never hear from Anonymous(TM) again.
The problem is, that's not how the organization works. They're not centralized. The Feds could do a lot of damage if they tried, but Anonymous would just pop right back up and continue on.
No, if they did it and were afraid, they wouldn't have claimed credit.
I can understand if they were more centralized, like many groups in the '60s were, but Anonymous is a different animal, so to speak(if you don't mind the analogy).
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)withhold the proof at all.
I realize it is decentralized. I am suggesting that the FBI and other groups have sufficient resources and potential to track the entire org. Not just the head of a traditional entity.
tritsofme
(17,379 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I think there's a possibility that they may have stopped Rove and company from stealing Ohio. And if so, kudos to them. 
I do believe we'd have won without OH though. 
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)...particularly from Thom Hartmann, is that, according to the Anonymous account, Rove and his minions set up vote-rigging operations in three specific states: Florida, Virginia, and Ohio. However, even if Rove had succeeded in flipping all three states, Obama still would have won, by an electoral-vote margin of 272 - 266. To successfully rig the election, Rove would have had to set up a similar operation in at least Colorado (and probably Nevada and maybe other states as a safety margin) as well. The fact that the "Anonymous" source doesn't mention anything about any other states than the "big three" suggests to me that either a) Rove couldn't do basic math, and spent a lot of time and money setting up an operation that, even if successful, could never have prevented the re-election of the President, or b) the whole story is being made up by someone who didn't bother to figure out that Obama would have won without those three states anyway, but simply included them because they were the key states according to lots of media pundits (who disregarded the math out of their contempt for "numbers geeks" like Nate Silver and Sam Wang). Guess which one of those two alternatives I would think most likely...
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)I think Colorado, in particular, surprised them.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)it would STILL make sense for RepugliCons to ensure a win in any one or all of Ohio, FL and VA.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The goal is to win the election. If you're going to break the law to win the election, you're sure as hell going to win the election.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)for what happens in that state immediately and in setting up for the future.
But that aside, strategizing based on 3 big win states with Rethugs in power makes sense (nobody could tell who would tip with battlegrounds so close). I don't find the argument convincing that they wouldn't be able to guess the odds and set up a fail-safe.*
These are smart people.
*An action taken or a mechanism put in place to avoid a disaster. Fail-safe does not mean that something is unable to fail (the term used for this is fail-secure), but instead means that if something does fail, the device will do whatever possible to minimize the negative outcomes.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Other than your opinion of the state, North Carolina isn't going to be any different because it voted for Romney instead of Obama.
What odds? You're fixing the election. The odds are 100%. You don't half-fix an election unless you're an utter moron - there's no reason to stop until you have the outcome you want.
If they were smart, they would have succeeded. So they either didn't "hack" the election, or they're morons.
Rove flipped out because Rove has sold himself as an expert on Ohio since 2000. This loss, especially in the state where he's supposed to be an expert, means the end of Rove's super PAC career. And keep in mind nobody hired him for their campaign this time around. He's staring into the abyss of irrelevancy and raging against the falling darkness.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)is that Rove is a big loser in this.
Your arguments are way too rigid & fixed for me to answer to.
The only state I love as much as North Carolina is Virginia. My family from way back is equally divided between the 2 states. Trust me, it counts.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)It's fine if you don't feel like answering them, but how exactly is being "too rigid" a problem when we're talking about electronics? The bits are 0 or 1. There's no 1/2.
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)Luckily, the Obama GOTV machine was overwhelming.
I don't know if Anonymous had anything to do with it, but there is plenty of overwhelming evidence that Rove and company has tampered with and continues to tamper with elections.
Ford_Prefect
(7,901 posts)it would be absurd to assume there was no hidden attempt to subvert all that hard work. Given Rove's previous history it is difficult to believe he did not expect some kind of last minute "miracle".
It is naive to think that Rove did not believe he had a "fix" in place for Ohio, and just possibly for other locations. His reputation rests on successfully doing so on all levels and in any way he can. There can be no doubt he has access to the resources required. Secretary of State Jon Husted's behavior suggests he was willing to do anything at all to interfere. His last minute actions and obstruction of the Judge's orders make that quite clear.
If there was a functioning vote flipping fix in place who else could have stopped it? The Democratic party is in deep denial about how easy it is to manipulate electronic voting and to disguise such an act. The DOJ has no operations in place to detect or respond to this kind of intervention.
It is not necessarily in their interest for Anonymous to show all the details of how and where they acted. To provide court proof testimony may not be possible either. This does not mean it didn't happen.
Rove is not yet gone, nor are his works and acolytes. It would be unwise to expect like minded zealots to simply give up nor would they likely abstain from successful past practices.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)"The Democratic party is in deep denial about how easy it is to manipulate electronic voting and to disguise such an act. The DOJ has no operations in place to detect or respond to this kind of intervention."
--I couldn't agree with you more. Denial runs deep.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)If he had set up something to steal the election, it would have stolen the election.
You don't hack the voting machines just to lose. Just like you don't barge into a bank, shout "this is a robbery" and then leave without the cash.
This makes no sense.
If the goal is free and fair elections, then it's in their interest to publish the details.
If the goal is anything else, then they should be thrown in prison regardless of the outcome of this particular case. Doesn't matter if the election manipulators happen to be "on our side" this time. Anything but free and fair elections is very, very, very bad.
Ford_Prefect
(7,901 posts)What he may have set up might have worked, as long as no one interfered. Just because they are hackable doesn't mean there is only one way to do it or one means of limiting the effect. The system is simple for a reason: it was built that way to enable hacking as we have already seen.
Anonymous is not a Justice Society for the internet. Preventing the vote heist does not equate to prosecuting Rove et al. As I recall they are rather skeptical of the U.S. Judicial system when it comes to the connected & protected, and seemingly for good reason. You mistake their goal which evidently was to stop Rove and Romney cheating. I see Anonymous as trying to balance the playing field rather than perfecting the game, if indeed they acted.
We assume at this point that both Rove and Anonymous did as was posted, or at least something approximate. It seems to me more likely that both Rove and Anonymous did as I have argued than that either did not absent the other. I think it is also possible although more unlikely that neither thing happened. Rove and his agents have gone to great lengths in the past and have the resources, experience, and attitude to make this kind of thing happen. They have also fucked up often.
Intervention is to be avoided I agree. However we are a long way from Free and Fair while Citizens United stands, Electronic voting is the law and voting districts and procedures are made to suit party inclinations rather than enabling any and all real citizens to vote.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Wouldn't that mean it's even more important for Anonymous to release their evidence?
Publishing information does not require calling law enforcement. They can upload video. How about uploading some actual evidence?
Whether or not it leads to a prosecution is immaterial. The goal is to show the machines were hacked. That way we can replace them with ones that have a paper trail.
So they should hack the election too?
Why?
If I claimed I can fly, would you assume that meant I can fly? Or would you ask for some evidence before you believed it? If my evidence was "I a;lsdjkhf the 208ysjvn and then oasuhcgljh", would that be believable? Because this claim from Anonymous makes as much sense as that gibberish.
Publish proof that the election was hacked, and that ends. Hide proof away, and it will be hacked again.
Ford_Prefect
(7,901 posts)Can you imagine why they might feel this way?
I believe it is more likely that it did happen than that it did not, for reasons I have already made clear. That does not make it so. I offered my reasoning which you chose to distort and ignore.
The EV equipment has been hackable since day one. They were built that way by the companies who made them. I am not here to teach you that history. It is well past time you should have read it.
I take as given that there are reasons why the Democratic Party will not face EV vulnerability and the Republicans want it preserved. I have argued at length with state and federal people about it. I participated in the hearings the led to the Law we have in NC governing use and documentation of EV machines here. I also have several friends inside the industry. I do not claim to know what IS going on. I am not part of it nor have I any association with Anonymous or any other like outfit.
I have seen what is possible often enough to know how easy it is. I have more years in that kind of technology than I care to count.
If you are concerned to have safe and reliable voting get us back to paper ballots which are marked by hand and counted by humans. According to at least 2 international studies that is the best system. It is used in many other countries where EV is considered dangerous for all the reasons we have seen (or not seen).
As for publishing the PROOF: So far that has made no previous difference on prior occasions. There appears to be an institutional disbelief which parallels that for UFO sightings. You cannot have any idea just how dense otherwise intelligent people can be on this subject. That the information is provided by Anonymous would only add to the level of willful disbelief and doubt.
I suspect that until there is a congressional majority who are tech savvy enough we will not get this settled on a national level. I think it will be the states who will do this first, like they are doing regarding medical Marijuana use. But that is only my opinion, which has nothing whatever to do with national party policies...
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Your argument is we should be thrilled that the next election will be stolen? Seriously?
And releasing how it's actually been hacked would let us replace them. Not releasing how they were hacked means hacking voting machines remains in the realm of conspiracy theories.
Actually, you are. You are claiming you know Anonymous did what they claimed. Despite the fact that their description is the equivalent of saying aagdjahflg the asdlgjhalsdg and then asdlghligo the daglhjasldgh.
And what's the fastest way to get there? Anonymous releasing proof that they hacked (or un-hacked) the election. No proof and this will be ignored. Release proof and it will have an effect.
No proof has been published of a hack during an election. All previous hacks required things like access to ports on the machine, or the software in the machine. Election officials can dodge that by covering the ports and claiming to control the software.
On the other hand, showing that this plan was an utter failure in a real election would be far more effective at replacing these machines.
Ford_Prefect
(7,901 posts)published. Had you read of it you would not need to obsessively twist my remarks to suit your conclusions because you would know to which I refer. I did not create the proof or the need for it.
My opinion of the EV situation seems to agree with yours: that EV should be better protected or replaced. Beyond that I do not understand why you need to assert that I defended what Anonymous may have done. I did not. I remarked that it seemed to me likely to have happened. If that opinion in any way makes you feel belittled or insecure I do apologize.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Thus there is no proof of a practical election day hack - covering the ports on the machines and careful software management theoretically blocks the attacks that have been proposed to date.
Anonymous releasing an actual election day hack would shatter that myth, and we can move the DRE systems to something like optical scanners, since those leave a human-readable paper trail.
Claiming that it's OK for anonymous to not release any details is defending them.
Ford_Prefect
(7,901 posts)to apprehend them? Do you prefer that they did not act at all? If they did act do you approve?
If they have evidence to provide whom do you suggest should present it?
My opinion was and is that it is possible they did not act. It could also be that ROVE had no Hail Mary pass planned and so nothing happened at all. I also said I thought it was unlikely to be the case that either of those conditions were true.
I suppose it is possible that Rove had something in place which failed for other reasons, though to me it seems unlikely. Please note that this remark is only an opinion.
I am not defending lawless acts by anyone and have not. I have speculated that Anonymous are unlikely to act against their interests. It is not something they seem to have done up to now. I have not said it was legal or OK for them to withhold evidence.
However, If we have benefited from their actions is that wrong?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Would you at least take the effort to read my posts before replying, instead of skimming them for keywords?
I want DRE systems gone because they don't leave a paper trail. I want secure voting systems.
That can't happen when all known hacks are in lab environments. The various SoS offices can block those individual attacks for pennies per machine, so they keep using the DRE machines.
If anonymous has an actual, workable election-day hack, I want it public. Not so that the "hackers" go to jail, but so that the various SoS feel compelled to replace their machines with ones that leave a recount-able paper trail.
And that's assuming there actually is a hack.
If there is no hack, this false claim hurts those of us who want these systems replaced. Because it allows the SoS to lump us in with "the crazy". "Look, those Anonymous guys posted a letter that makes no sense. These other people complaining are just like them."
Yes.
In addition, there's no reason to assume we'd benefit next time. And if they have a hack and don't go public, there will be a next time.
Ford_Prefect
(7,901 posts)I have responded directly to your claim that I have supported either by assertion or omission Anonymous's actions in NOT releasing the relevant evidence of the attempted hack of the vote by Rove et al.
I said that it was unlikely they would do so. That is not agreement with their actions on that point.
I observed that they operate outside the law. That is not the same as approving of them doing so.
If they do something "wrong" they do it for their own reasons. I am not inviting them to do it.
The difficulty I see in expecting the SoS, DOJ, Democratic Party, Congress, or POTUS for that matter, to take any assertions or evidence of vote hacking at any level and in any form seriously is that they have categorically denied the possibility of it happening. Therefore in any situation the "evidence" will be discussed as one more exception that proves the rule rather than anything meaningful in and of itself. Germany has outlawed EV as inherently unconstitutional. However they did not redact or reconsider several years of elections which used EV because they claimed there was no evidence to show it had been interfered with. Ask anyone who has pursued the elimination of Nuclear Weapons over the last few decades if this seems to be a familiar tune.
If they have not gone after Rove, Rumsfeld, Bush et al by now they don't intend to, whatever their reasoning or their public excuses.
I agree that evidence of a hack in whatever form would improve the basis of the argument that EV is not reliable in present form. I regret to say I do not feel it would be enough to eliminate EV or to ensure there would be appropriate reform of it. If the past and present ownership of the EV industry doesn't raise questions in Congress or the DOJ nothing else is likely to.
So far there is more than enough evidence that the vote and access to voting has been interfered with on many levels and in several election cycles yet it was only in the last weeks of the most recent campaign that there was any action on the part of DOJ. "They" ignored it in 2000 and ever since. The powers that be, no matter the era, have decided that we as a nation cannot ever doubt the system itself. LBJ said as much when he possessed evidence of Nixon's treasonous interference in the peace negotiations with Hanoi.
As they see it that would be a civil war they are unwilling to have on their watch. I don't agree with that view but it has not stopped them from asserting it over and over again.
RandiFan1290
(6,235 posts)So entertaining to see the people that come unhinged over this.
littlemissmartypants
(22,685 posts)
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)Part of this story should be stringing up the perps who floated the whole Rove/Anon scam.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)Both can be true.
I haven't decided on the anonymous thing, but didn't they say they blocked servers to 3 states?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Hugin
(33,148 posts)The conspiracy in this case was played out in the open air prior to the Election itself with all of the varied corrupt and in many cases illegal voter suppression efforts by the Republicans.
Also, with the questionable national polls which tried somehow to justify the race as closer than it was in reality. Blurring and obfuscating the public's perception of the probable outcome. This was done by the Mass Media out of self interest (when have they cared about anything else?) Which, tended to work to the Republican advantage, but, ironically may have been a major factor in driving the huge turnout response by the Democratic voters.
CrispyQ
(36,470 posts)Rove was certain O couldn't win without OH. Old fool.
Do I think there were shenanigans going on in OH? There were shenanigans going on all over! People need to get involved at a state level if they want to change this. Too many repub SOS's, even in states that went blue for Prez O.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)This is a serious legal/national security issue.
Ford_Prefect
(7,901 posts)Chain of evidence would be a problem I suspect. Nothing is more ephemeral and less verifiable than electronic records without hard copy and witnesses to back them up. Indeed that is the crux of the problem in both situations.
Why do they need to prove they did anything, if they did at all? I agree this points to a serious security issue but not for the first time. Those among us who doubted the wisdom of electronic voting with no paper trail have raised this question before only to be shouted down as heretics.
In my opinion the fact that it COULD have happened should be reason enough to demand competent investigation and appropriate reforms. Since we among others here posting would prefer Justice to Tyranny our debate should be toward fully open, balanced and verifiable election systems and full voting participation by all citizens.
In the mean time I will accept help as I think I find it and hang the Rogues who steal my rights whenever possible.
rock
(13,218 posts)In any case I believe you have hit it right on the head. Obama had such an impressive lead in so many of the high-EV states, that it would have been highly noticeable and extremely difficult to steal enough votes in enough state. 
Old and In the Way
(37,540 posts)this ought to be the solution: GOTV. I do believe that today's Republican Party is a buyable political enterprise that does private service at the expense of public service. It certainly wouldn't surprise me that the Party who actively works to criminally suppress the vote, wouldn't use all the tools at their disposal. Electronic voting hacks is certainly doable and we should be pushing to make sure the code is public and bullet-proof by law - put the Republicans on the spot and make them vote against laws to keep our elections honest - I dare them..
I was truly disturbed with what went on in Ohio...Bush's fortunates seemed to miraculously change, starting at 11:15 on that awful night in 2004. The fact that a GOP server in Tennessee was 'reporting' the election totals for Ohio....that ought to have been a major red flag, IMHO. I'll never be convinced that the American voting public rewarded this administrations performance and agenda from 2000-2004. The Florida election fiasco and the SCOTUS vote to select Bush president , 9/11, and the WMD lies to war and the irresponsible taxcuts they rammed through Congress - all of these issues seriously energized all of us - yet somehow Bush won the popular vote? NFW.
The good news, I honestly think that more and more of the electorate is figuring this Party out. Their slice and dice electoral politics has been successful over the past 30 years...but the internet, their written/spoken agenda, and institutional hypocrisy is neutralizing their money advantage - combined with the sad fact that their biggest voting demographic is banging up hard against the mortality tables. Time is running out for these dinosaurs.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)Those words are true AND music to my ears.
No longer do the Rethugs have election theft in the bag thanks to Ohio and I LOVE it!
Julie
allrevvedup
(408 posts)and that the "Anonymous" tale is an effort to drive the whole election theft issue into the loony bin, where it seems to be heading.
In other words, 2004 could well have been stolen, as it appears to have been, and an attempt to steal 2012 might have been foiled, as by all appearances it was, but that doesn't mean Anonymous foiled it. In fact Anonymous makes the real story, if and when it comes out, easier to dismiss.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Rove does not have a conscience.
QED
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)A player does what is needed and called for. And a good player does it well.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I'm glad we see eye to eye on this.
ETA: And that's why I'd put money on Rove never taking the witness stand, because everyone involved knows Rove that well.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)And it's usually (not in the case with President Obama because he is the best there is and he is Chicago), but normally in the recent past, democrats do not have this and it hurts them not to have it.
Which is why Drudge was left with nobody doing the same on the left for a decade or more.
Had we had what they had, or had the internet been around mass public wise earlier, 2000 recount bogus riot never would have been allowed to stop the recount. They would have been immediately outed.
The irony of it all is Chicago knows what to do. That was proven both in 1960 and today.
(and community organizers know what to do).
Which is why we should hope 2016 the team stays together and they utilize Chicago again.
(I am not a fan of his, but if Rahm is on the ticket, or has some major role in 16, the complete team might just do so for Hillary.)
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Salon's Table Talk was on it in near real-time also because I was there too.
Hugin
(33,148 posts)I recall it quite clearly.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)and instead of shutting down the recount, shut down the fake protest (and arrested them as they arrested in 1968 the Chicago 7 under the crossing state lines to interfere with a federal election charge).
(If only applied so many times in 2000.)
Hugin
(33,148 posts)Maybe, the world has progressed since then in some way.
Good point.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)
Zorra
(27,670 posts)
FogerRox
(13,211 posts)In Ohio voting machines and tabulators arent connected to the internet.
So how did ANon hack 10k voting machines?
A real ANon wouldnt say stupid shit like that.
Thanks PA, KnR
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)We have a real problem in this country with the integrity of our elections. It is foolish of anybody to ignore that, and it is doubly foolish to think that we will always overcome that with a superior candidate and superior execution.
That is foolishness of the highest order.
Either help us address the election problem or if you aren't interested in dealing with that reality, then just shut up while others try to deal with the problem. But stop denying the obvious.
OhZone
(3,212 posts)Remember that exit polls in 2004 had Kerry winning a number of states that he lost.
Oh, well. Unless Anon produces proof, this is just a fun conspiracy thing.
Lets move on and be happy.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)We saw what they did in FL with those obscene lines. Rove likely would have assumed that was sufficient. I don't think any of us really believes that so many brothers and sisters would stand in line for 5-10 hours to vote. This had to come as s complete shock to Rove. And VA was close. Again, Rove could have assumed that was close enough to win if their fancy GOTV software would have worked.
But Ohio was absolutely not close enough to win with the standard voter suppression stuff Husted threw out there. The only way to win Ohio would be election system tampering.
Forget Anonymous. Until they show some evidence, I would not take that theory seriously. But that doesn't change the most important facts:
1) There is a PROVEN recent history of election system tampering in Ohio, showing pervasive, systematic manipulation of results, always in favor of Republicans
2) There is a SoS in place that has been extremely aggressive this year in erecting barriers to voting in Democratic-leaning counties
3) There is a highly suspicious collection of products supplied by ESS, which itself has a history of voting irregularities, again favoring Republicans. These machines are ideally placed in the system to flip vote totals after they leave the precincts. Husted broke the law by installing untested software on 39 of these just weeks before the election.
Anybody who doesn't think there was an intent to steal this election by any available means is nuts. And anybody who doesn't believe KKKarl was heavily involved in that just doesn't have any useful reasoning powers.
What stopped them?
a) We don't know that they were completely prevented from vote flipping. We don't know that they were stopped. We only know that if they did execute a vote flipping plan, it wasn't enough to overcome our lead.
b) We know that there were thousands of lawyers on the scene, unlike the past years when Ohio rigged their elections. And we know that Husted's role was very sharply in the spotlight, aggressively taking him to court on each of his suppression and rigging attempts, including the ESS software. Husted knew that he actions were being watched very closely.
c) Husted decided to go home at about 10PM on election night, just about the time of Rove's famous meltdown. This was just after it became clear that Husted could commit election felonies likely putting him in prison, and it would still not give the election to Romney
What stopped them was the spotlight and the victories in FL, VA, IA, WI, PA, NV, and CO. Husted simply decided he didn't want to go to prison. It really isn't complicated.
And for those who still want to maintain there was no plot afoot, then why did the Obama campaign put so many lawyers on the ground in Ohio?
rightsideout
(978 posts)In Florida, while the Republicans were having their debates, the Obama campaign was busy planning their ground game for the state. They brought up numbers from the 2008 election to see what precincts they had a chance to win the state with and pushed it.
They persued the ground game in other swing states as well. Their ground game was much more organized then Romney's. Romney thought ads and closed speeches would get the votes but it had no chance against Obama's ground game.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)Please stop with all this nonsense. Obviously Obama had a good campaign and won by a large margin in Ohio. Nobody is disputing that.
The issue is election fraud. We overcame Ohio's election fraud this time because Obama had such a clear victory. We will probably not be in that position the next time, so we MUST address the massive election fraud / incompetence that is clearly evident in OH, FL, and AZ this year.
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts) 
