General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy the US didn't kill 12,000 civilians in 6 weeks of combat in Iraq
https://www.justsecurity.org/74619/avoiding-collateral-damage-on-the-battlefield/I'm far from an apologist for US military adventurism but what we're seeing in Gaza is simply medieval.
Importantly, it is the expected collateral damage and the anticipated military advantage that drive proportionality analysis. Thus, proportionality determinations are made ex ante, not post factum. The determinative factors are what the attacker knew, or should have known, regarding collateral damage and what military advantage the attacker reasonably expected to achieve; proportionality is not assessed based on the collateral damage or military advantage that eventuated, except as they bear on the reasonableness of the attackers analysis at the time the attack was planned, approved or executed. In practice, this is a highly subjective determination because it compares dissimilar values collateral damage and military advantage that are themselves hard to measure. As a result, while still important, the more protective rule on the battlefield is that requiring precautions.
Compliance with these rules by those conducting attacks is operationalized through guidance imposed by higher echelons of command, processes designed to assess the likelihood of collateral damage and identify ways to avoid causing it, and technologies that offer the attacker precision, greater clarity in the battlespace, and redundant capabilities. We turn to these next.
U.S. and coalition forces use rules of engagement (ROE) to restrict the application of force during armed conflict, in part to limit civilian casualties to the extent feasible (Operational Law Handbook, ch. 5). ROE are more restrictive than LOAC, for they also incorporate policy and operational constraints and are usually tailored to the specific battlefield environment in which they apply. The rules can restrict such matters as acceptable targets, the geographic range of operations, time of operations, and the use of particular munitions. ROE also sometimes reinforce LOAC provisions that might be of particular significance in certain combat environments, such as the prohibitions on the destruction of religious and cultural property when being applied in situations of internecine conflict. In many circumstances, they tighten them, as in the case of restricting operations against religious facilities being illegitimately used by the adversary to self-defense scenarios only.
JohnSJ
(92,504 posts)and that is from both wars from the Bushs
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#:~:text=According%20to%20a%202010%20assessment,killed%20by%20insurgents%2C%20militias%2C%20or
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)Example... the US never gave authority for close in air support CAS to use 2000lb JDAM's in civilians areas...
Israel used multiple ones in the refugee camp bombing.
JohnSJ
(92,504 posts)WarGamer
(12,506 posts)Let me summarize.
The US exercises SOME level of care conducting warfare... and even THEN... the US caused massive damage and death in Iraq.
Israel is multiple multipliers WORSE in it's execution of this war vs mostly civilians.
yardwork
(61,779 posts)The U.S. has committed plenty of atrocities. Your efforts to cast Israel as "medieval" - a curious word in this context, to say the least - by arguing that they're even worse than anything the U.S. has ever done - an assertion that would definitely be disputed - doesn't really lead us to a solution...
The American Civil War killed more than 600,000 Americans, with 51,000 killed at the battle of Gettysburg alone.
And so forth. Ask the Japanese what they think of Americans dropping nuclear bombs on two cities. Talk about medieval.
When we begin comparing atrocities and competing over who has suffered the most, nobody wins.
Martin68
(22,951 posts)them that Japanese (and German) cities were firebombed, killing just as many civilians as a nuclear bomb. Hundreds of bombs were dropped on Tokyo, where everyone lived in wooden hoses, reducing the city to kindling. These were followed by dropping incendiary bombs which left the city and everyone in it in mere ashes.
Heres the intro to the Wikipedia post:
The Bombing of Tokyo (東京大空襲, Tōkyōdaikūshū was a series of bombing air raids launched by the United States Army Air Forces during World War II. Known as Operation Meetinghouse, the raids were conducted by the U.S. military on the night of 9-10 March 1945, and were the single most destructive bombing raid in human history.[1] 16 square miles (41 km2; 10,000 acres) of central Tokyo were destroyed, leaving an estimated 100,000 civilians dead and over one million homeless.[1] The atomic bombing of Hiroshima in August 1945, by comparison, resulted in the immediate death of an estimated 70,000 to 150,000 people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo
Cha
(298,021 posts)WarGamer
(12,506 posts)TexasDem69
(1,887 posts)And weapons in a small, heavily populated area. Hamas hoped that would give it carte blanche to kill Israelis without repercussions. Hamas is directly and entirely responsible for the deaths in Gaza. We should stop excusing terrorists and murderers like Hamas.
Old Crank
(3,667 posts)It is about the size of 3 San Franiscos. ut with 2.5ish million people.
One of the reasons for civillian death toll. Gaza has noplace for hamas to put traditional military bases.
they have no navy, airforce or armour. Where are Hamas going to locate their forces given the orver whelming military advantage Isreal has?
This in no way excuses their actions against Isreal.
They could just not have forces.
Old Crank
(3,667 posts)How is that working on the West Bank?
yardwork
(61,779 posts)"What we're seeing in Gaza is simply medieval."
Um, no. We don't have to go back to medieval times - bringing up images of the Crusades and antisemitic tropes - to find examples of war being conducted in ways we don't like.
Much more recent examples abound, that have nothing to do with Jewish people.
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)And older examples.
Rome grew tired of repeated aggression, invasions and competition with Carthage.
Even after the Carthaginians were finally defeated the Roman Senate decided the problem must be finished once and for all so Scipio attacked the city, killed most inhabitants except for those taken as slaves and razed the city to the ground.
The once great culture and city was extinguished in a single breath... like a candle.
yardwork
(61,779 posts)WarGamer
(12,506 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 18, 2023, 04:34 PM - Edit history (1)
Razed to the ground, killed the people, built over the ruins and destroyed the libraries and recorded texts about Carthage.
There ARE NO surviving primary source materials re: Carthage.
yardwork
(61,779 posts)It simply is. This has been stated over and over, citing expert sources.
It's fine to hold an opinion. It's not fine to push antisemitic tropes.
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)And I didn't say Israel was trying to erase GAZA... although they've made a fine start.
And technically... it would be anti-Zionism, not antisemitism.
Although I'm neither.
yardwork
(61,779 posts)It's fine to be opposed to Israel's policies and practices. Just say that.
It's when we fall into old tropes that it crosses the line. Words such as exterminate, genocide, erasure, medieval - when associated specifically with Jews or issues closely associated with Jews, such as Israel - are antisemitic.
Big Blue Marble
(5,158 posts)from right-wing Israeli ministers stating that exact goal of forcing out the Gazans
or even dropping nuclear bombs on Gazans?
Most human rights groups are saying that the evidence of genocidal intent has been
clearly stated from with-in the Israeli government.
yardwork
(61,779 posts)That doesn't give us permission to use antisemitic words and phrases.
(A comparison might be asking why it was racist to say racist things when the Trump administration did it all the time. If a Swedish person said something racist during the Trump administration, was their comment any less racist just because Trump said it?)
State your opinion. Avoid antisemitic words and tropes. Simple
Big Blue Marble
(5,158 posts)I have lived in a jewish family for many years. I know what anti-semitism is and what is not.
It is human rights groups who are calling it genocidal intent.
Martin68
(22,951 posts)Israeli government leaders have clearly stated that as a desirable goal? These arent random skinheads, they are Israeli government ministers!
Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter told Israeli Channel 12 over the weekend that the war would be Gazas Nakba, using the Arabic word for catastrophe that many use to describe the 1948 displacement of roughly 700,000 Palestinians who were expelled from their land in what became Israel.
A week before Dichter's comments, Israeli Heritage Minister Amihai Eliyahu sparked outcry after he suggested that dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip was one of the possibilities in the current conflict.
Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a prominent settler activist, raised alarm himself earlier this month after calling for the creation of "sterile" zones in the West Bank
Big Blue Marble
(5,158 posts)"What we're seeing in Gaza is simply medieval."
Two and one half million people nearly half of them children trapped in a pen with no place to go, derived of water, food, and medical care bombed out of their houses and forced to sleep on the dirt. starting to die
from starvation and disease.
Severely injured patients lying in hospitals without pain medications with maggots in their wounds.
Premature babies dying by the day for lack of warm and oxygen. 100's of children have lost arms
legs, and parents. Many others slowly die under tons of rubble.
You could say hell or medieval. Take your pick.
yardwork
(61,779 posts)For example, Palestinians aren't "trapped in a pen." They were warned to leave because Hamas is hiding among them.
Why haven't any other Arab countries offered refugee status to Palestinians? They could all have been rescued by Egypt and other neighboring nations.
I'm not trying to downplay the horror of losing one's home or being bombed. I'm asking why other Arab nations aren't helping.
Big Blue Marble
(5,158 posts)2.5 million people are trapped in an area that was originally 25 miles by 7. They now have been
forced into an area about half that size without actuate facilities or aid. And yesterday,
Israel has started more intense bombing in the south. There are no safe places in Gaza
and there is no way out.
And why are not other Arab nations helping. First, many already have taken in millions
of Palestinian refugees from previous wars. Secondly, with good reason, it is assumed
that they will not be allowed back into their homes. You do realize that 70% of the population
of Gaza are either displaced refugees from the Nakba or decendants of Nakba refugees.
Never the less, what ever the reasons, they are trapped into a pen created by Israel and to
some extent Egypt who does not want to destabilized their shaky populations with
millions of refugees.
BannonsLiver
(16,545 posts)sarisataka
(18,896 posts)set themselves up in civilian areas nor hide in in schools, hospitals, Mosques... That the Iraqis were organized and operated as a regular military force, observing the laws of war for the most part meant there were far less collateral civilian deaths.
Hamas is an irregular force that has repeatedly shown no interest in following the laws or war, or arguably humanity. It relies on embedding themselves in the civilian infrastructure and population as its primary defense. Thus civilian casualties are exponentially higher.
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)As the linked story says...
The US analyzes the ratio of possible collateral damage vs the benefit.
For example... the US won't drop a 2000lb JDAM on a Land Rover driving through a residential street.
SOMEONE in the Israeli gov't, maybe Nuttyyahoo himself, are telling the IDF that 30:1 or 50:1 ratios of dead civilians:Hamas fighters are acceptable.
sarisataka
(18,896 posts)As I do not have access to the IDF G-2. I cannot say what each individual target's value is vs the force used to eliminate it.
Assuming you numbers of 12k and 30/50:1 are accurate Israel has killed between 240 and 400 Hamas fighters. That seems improbably low based on the extensive damage we have seen.
However we do not know if that 12k includes Hamas fighters. I have seen an estimate of 5,000+ Hamas killed. That would give a ratio of 2.4:1 if the Hamas killed are not included in the total or 1.4:1 if Hamas is counting every death as civilian.
If those ratios are accurate, and we have no more evidence they are less than the 30:1, then it appears the IDF is making great efforts to minimize casualties while attacking an enemy willing to use its own people are shields.
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)Because I don't believe Hamas or Israel.
Big Blue Marble
(5,158 posts)The health ministry was not able to update their numbers for an entire week. Ironically,
now that bombing is significantly increasing in the south, they have regained a better
ability to count the dead. It is also estimated at least 4000 people are missing and buried
under the rubble.
And even after the bombing stops, the death count will continue to rise from a variety of reasons.
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)yardwork
(61,779 posts)It's also wise to refrain from drawing conclusions based on emotion and incomplete data.
EX500rider
(10,891 posts)TwilightZone
(25,517 posts)With about 100k of those coming from the initial invasion and occupation.
The assertions that Israel is fully indiscriminate in its tactics and that the casualties are "multiple" times worse are laughable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties
As others have noted, it's also apples to oranges. The Iraqi military wasn't a terrorist organization hiding amongst civilians, with no regard for said civilians. Even with that being the case, civilian deaths were quite high, as noted by Lancet, AP, etc.
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)One more time, I'll repeat...
For as bad as the US was at creating collateral damage in Iraq (pretty bad) the Israelis are much worse.
Like I said above... the US was careful about weapon selection, not dropping 2000lb bombs in civilian areas when a smaller weapon would work without the risk of collateral damage.
Martin68
(22,951 posts)to have set up a winning" debate topic that is irrelevant to the bigger picture. Over 100,000 deaths is a colossal waste of human life whether it occurred in 6 weeks or 5 years.Weve all seen the video of a helicopter killing civilians on the ground as they scrambled for shelter. Do you think something like that is an isolated incident?
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)Martin68
(22,951 posts)David__77
(23,624 posts)That said, I understand the point youre making.
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)The US war in Iraq was horrific and hardly a model for warfare...
It's just the GAZA War is that much worse.
EX500rider
(10,891 posts)So 100% of the Hamas supplied number have all been civilians?
The IDF hasn't managed to kill any of its target Hamas fighters?
Extremely unlikely which means you have no idea how many civilians have actually died.
GuppyGal
(1,748 posts)Martin68
(22,951 posts)12,000 total means 11,880 civilian deaths. satisfied? Make it 5% if you want. It is still unconscionable.
EX500rider
(10,891 posts)They are 100% of the target list and my guess would be 80% of the casualties.
And a guess is all anyone has since Hamas counts all dead Hamas fighters as civilians, they said so themselves.
Also 12,000 is a Hamas number, the same guys who said their were "500+" dead in the Islamic Jihad rocket hit on the al-Ahli Arab Hospital parking lot, later show to be a dozen+ casualties and a self-goal.
They also have said they only targeted IDF personnel on Oct 7th, so if you want to believe those guys, a terrorist group with all the reason in the world to inflate the number, feel free, but I also have a bridge for sale if you are interested.
Martin68
(22,951 posts)number and then file a disclaimer? Moving the goal posts are we? You predict bombing residential apartment buildings, hospitals and other buildings will kill 80% of Hamas fighters and 20% of the civilians? Magical thinking, my friend. Or worse, thinking clouded by an ideological slant that is impervious to reality. Just because you want to kill Hamas fighters doesnt mean thats who you kill when you bomb apartment buildings. You seriously need a reality check.
EX500rider
(10,891 posts)But since there are zero trustworthy figures on casualties (unless you trust Hamas) all anyone has is a guess.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)What is the number of Hamas killed? Israel isn't putting anything out about it, are they phoning those numbers in to you or are you just defending the unknown?
brush
(53,972 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 18, 2023, 05:52 PM - Edit history (2)
in one of the most densely populated areas on the planet will result in thousands of innocent, non-combatant deaths.
Unless you just don't care, or you don't care and are intent on over-retaliating to make up in your mind, and to the nation, your glaring failure in detecting and moving to stop before hand the horrendous Oct. 7 terrorist attack on Israel.
Bibi/Likud, you can call off the bombings now, 12,000 innocent Palestinian deaths more than makes up for 1,500 innocent Israeli deaths. That's about a 9-1 ratio. Is that sufficient?
Now get on with the urban warfare with troops/special forces that are needed to eliminate Hamas from their network of tunnels. It won't be easy. And forget about a new Nakba as some from your camp have the nerve to propose on social media and other outlets. Clearing the Gazan rubble and divvying up the land for a glittering, new seacoast resort area, with the rest divvied up for settler and IDF soldier plots just won't be allowed. Even your sponsor up to now, the US, won't allow that.
And this is from a US citizen who feels that impartiality is what's important here. Both innocent Israeli non-combatants and innocent Palestinian non-combatants have legitimate beefs, even more on the Gazan side because of the over-kill there.
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)sarisataka
(18,896 posts)If Israel stays out of Gaza and tries to bomb Hamas, they are being medieval and trying to commit genocide on the Palestinians.
We saw when Israeli troops move into Gaza we saw the cries go up that Israel is trying to annex Gaza, force the Palestinians out ansd commit genocide.
When Israel sent special forces and support troops into the Al Shifa hospital and secured it without a shot being fired there was world wide condemnation of it as a war crime. Yet they also proved the Hamas has been using the hospital, no one has acknowledged that crime or that the Israeli claim has been vindicated.
yardwork
(61,779 posts)It's so one-sided.
brush
(53,972 posts)operating by the rules of engagement where best efforts to not harm non-combatants, the press and rescue services are observed, there seems to be no other way to get rid of Hamas.
bif
(22,812 posts)Maybe it was over a longer period. But 100,000 killed is fucking criminal and both Bush & Cheney should be behind bars.
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)But I was referring to the body count in the 6 weeks in GAZA being even WORSE.
And that's no compliment to the US prosecution of the war in Iraq, which I've been a permanent opponent of.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)Regarding past atrocities by other counties, as if this one isn't as bad as that one. JFC the apologists for this shit have twisted themselves into pretzels.
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)Basic LA
(2,047 posts)"Medieval" hits the mark nicely but good luck getting that across to the hospital-bombing chorus.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)In his lie fest on the NPR interview. Instead he was salivating about a fine opportunity for an open ended military occupation that would of course misdirect anymore criminal proceedings against his corrupt miserable ass.
paleotn
(18,012 posts)Funny how you seem to forget their atrocities.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)That has been going on for the last 6 weeks 11000+ dead. No criminal proceedings, genocide will suffice right? JFC already.
Funny how you have nothing to say about the hostages either.
paleotn
(18,012 posts)They're evil but not stupid.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)paleotn
(18,012 posts)Just curious as to why. Don't get me wrong. Israel doesn't have clean hands by any means, but neither does Hamas and other Palestinian terror groups through the years. But some seem to give them a pass while rushing to condemn the Israelis. Surely there's a reason for that.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)I don't know why anybody else does.
paleotn
(18,012 posts)Israel going too far in defending their right to live and exist? That's auto freak out. I think there's a word for that. Starts with an A.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)So there.
paleotn
(18,012 posts)The Iraq war was long and varied widely in types of combat and intensity. Really, only the first and second battles of Fallujah are somewhat comparable. Both where urban and had a ton of gray area around who was a combatant and who wasn't, but the comparison ends there. Far fewer non-combatants in Fallujah during both operations compared to Gaza since the dynamics were totally different. And Hamas has had decades to dig in like ticks under civilian infrastructure. Cowardly scum that they are.
DemocraticPatriot
(4,501 posts)Not even in the first 6 weeks?
That supposition seems to be in opposition to the total number of presumed Iraqi casualties....
Not trying to defend any number of civilian casualties here or there--- it just is what it is.
We dropped a shitload of bombs in the first weeks of the Iraq war, same as Israel is now doing in Gaza...
(And I did oppose the Iraq war--- it was about nothing other than 'Daddy Bush got threatened by Hussein')
WarGamer
(12,506 posts)Approximately the same length of time the GAZA war has been going.
A dossier released by Iraq Body Count, a project of the U.K. non-governmental non-violent and disarmament organization Oxford Research Group, attributed approximately 6,616 civilian deaths to the actions of U.S.-led forces during the "invasion phase", including the shock-and-awe bombing campaign on Baghdad.[22]
DemocraticPatriot
(4,501 posts)WarGamer
(12,506 posts)Then add in the deaths due to starvation and disease caused by the invasion indirectly.
doc03
(35,443 posts)Eugene
(61,974 posts)The shelling of Raqqa was the heaviest U.S. artillery bombardment since the Vietnam War, yet it was barely reported in the U.S. corporate media. A recent New York Times article about the traumatic brain injuries and PTSD suffered by U.S. artillerymen operating 155mm howitzers, which each fired up to 10,000 shells into Raqqa, was appropriately titled "A Secret War, Strange New Wounds and Silence from the Pentagon."
Shrouding such mass death and destruction in secrecy is a remarkable achievement. When British playwright Harold Pinter was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in 2005, in the midst of the Iraq war, he titled his acceptance speech Art, Truth and Politics, and used it to shine a light on this diabolical aspect of U.S. war-making.
https://news.yahoo.com/decades-u-war-crimes-led-110001737.html
TexasDem69
(1,887 posts)Masquerading as concern. You know what would stop the deaths in Gaza that Hamas caused? Hamas releases all hostages, lays down its arms and surrenders all individuals who planned or participated in the October 7 massacre.
Oneironaut
(5,541 posts)WarGamer
(12,506 posts)The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)Civilians? Many were terrorists.
LexVegas
(6,121 posts)The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)Bebe said so?
EX500rider
(10,891 posts)And the target of all of the IDF's bombs, are you suggesting they haven't hit any somehow?
And Hamas said they count all dead Hamas as civilians.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)So far there are 4000+ dead children or so probably many more.
EX500rider
(10,891 posts)Certainly in Hamas best interest to inflate the numbers, maybe include all the 17 to 18yo Hamas members working on rocket launching teams who got hit by the IDF.
Do I trust the numbers from the same guys who said their were "500+" dead in the Islamic Jihad rocket hit on the al-Ahli Arab Hospital parking lot, later show to be a dozen+ casualties and a self-goal? No
They also have said they only targeted IDF personnel on Oct 7th, so if you want to believe those guys, a terrorist group with all the reason in the world to inflate the number, feel free.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)EX500rider
(10,891 posts)The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)Does that make it all better? Good for you.
EX500rider
(10,891 posts)Yes
elias7
(4,036 posts)Compound that fact that Hamas has set up munitions stores and are hiding amongst the civilian population (which also is probably not considered above board in formal Rules of Engagment) and you have a ridiculous comparison, with an unjustifiable inferential conclusion that Israel must be unconcerned with avoiding collateral damage.
Army Brat
(151 posts)inthewind21
(4,616 posts)Might want to get out the calculator again.
GuppyGal
(1,748 posts)Swede
(33,310 posts)But our calculations, using the best information available, show a catastrophic estimate of 2.4 million Iraqi deaths since the 2003 invasion.
The number of Iraqi casualties is not just a historical dispute, because the killing is still going on today. Since several major cities in Iraq and Syria fell to Islamic State in 2014, the U.S. has led the heaviest bombing campaign since the American War in Vietnam, dropping 105,000 bombs and missiles and reducing most of Mosul and other contested Iraqi and Syrian cities to rubble.
Taking ORBs estimate of 1.033 million killed by June 2007, then applying a variation of Just Foreign Policys methodology from July 2007 to the present using revised figures from Iraq Body Count, we estimate that 2.4 million Iraqis have been killed since 2003 as a result of our countrys illegal invasion, with a minimum of 1.5 million and a maximum of 3.4 million.
https://www.salon.com/2018/03/19/the-staggering-death-toll-in-iraq_partner/
Autumn
(45,120 posts)the sins of Hamas. It's is time to negotiate for the hostages and stop the killing of the innocents. .