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H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 06:28 PM Nov 2023

A Thought

" So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth."
– Baha'U'Llah, Founder of Baháʼí Faith


Back in 2015, when the networks were first giving significant attention to the defendent's speeches, I remember my older son noting that the guy was aping the style of Hitler. I think he called it an off-beat cadence with certain lines intended to communicate ggressive hatred. Thus, I was not surprised to hear the word "vermin" spewing from the anal fistula on his face.

I was glad to hear my president call the defendent out on this. (Link below) This was not a simple campaign line. No president in my lifetime has ever made a reference to his opponent using the tactics of Hitler. That just does not happen. And so it is something that I find goes beyond politics.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-campaign-says-trump-echoed-hitler-with-use-word-vermin-2023-11-13/

When President Biden gave this warning, it is important to take it seriously. In fact, with the highest level of seriousness. I've seen a variety of responses on this forum, to both what the defendent said, and what President Biden then said. I've thought about it for a few days, before putting my thoughts in order. I will start with the opposition.

I've read some people sincerely asking how anyone could support the defendent -- especially at this late date? Other posts express fear of the possibility of the defendent being elected to the presidency next year. Numerous good people -- on this forum and elsewhere -- have expressed their belief that his regaining office would spell the end of the democratic experience in the United States of America. Because I do understand exactly why people are drawn to his destructive cult, and fully appreciate what his election would mean, I am convinced that it would be far worse than most imagine.

An understanding of individual and group psychology, along with an appreciation for Faulkner's line in "Requiem for a Nun" -- ""The past is never dead. It's not even past." -- creates a good foundation. Add Rumi's lines, which I tend to repeat here every so often -- about the chain of cause and effect -- and one can see one of the three potential paths our society is going to opt for. And that choice can be selected as much, and perhaps more, by the unconscious and sub-conscious parts of the brain that are the result of human evolution.

I remember Rubin talking about white nationalism, and quoting Malcolm on the history of America oppressing non-white human beings, both in this country and around the earth. No, that past is not dead. We see it rising in parts of this country today. I think of Rubin's teachings on the bibical story of the Tower of Babel, on it's highest esoteric and truest meaning, not the misconception that falls upon lower levels of understanding. I've shared that in the past on this forum. As a devote atheist, Rubin had amazing insight into the great religions, and their highest teachings. In the late 1970s, from solitary confinement when he thought he would die in prison, he wrote the most beautiful letters to me on these subjects.

Now I want to focus briefly on the human nature of the defendent and his flock. He spews venom, literally, and the cult is energized by it. It is the language that they understand, as that is the nature of hatred -- found only in human beings, including in groups. It is as caustic as sulfuric acid. It eats away from all the Good qualities in groups and individuals

There was a significant spill of sulfuric acid last week in the plant my son works in. But that is only part of the reason that I mention it. The other reason is related to the use of the word "brimstone" in the bible, the archaic word for sulfur. Now, many people are familiar with the "rotten egg" odor of hydrogen sulfide in water. Fewer are familiar with how a decomposing corpse smells similar, but far worse, than a glass of sulfur water. That is why we find the references in scripture oncluding Psalms, Ezekiel, and Revolations ..... it speaks to the walking brain-dead and soul-dead. (Note: by "soul," I mean that spark of energy from the universe that allows us to experience the divine miracle of life on Earth, during the eternal Now.)

To remedy a spill of sulfuric acid, one should not attempt to use another type of acid. Rather, you must use an agent to neutralise it. Only that provides for a safe clean up. I understand the discomfort that Good People experience today. Also, emotional reactions including anger, hate, and fear. But as Rubin came to understand while in confinement, our salvation comes in neutralising these emotions. That includes as individuals and groups. That does not translate into advocating being sitting ducks or victims of the living dead of the defendent's cult. Just the opposite: it is the way to remove the threat they pose. It is the path to the top of the human mountain that Martin Luther King spoke of. And it starts with each one of us as individuals, then forming groups, until unity lights the way -- recognizing that "unity" does not imply nor demand that we all have the same opinions on every issue. For it is the divisions that we are witness to today, between Good People, that poses the greatest threat.

36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A Thought (Original Post) H2O Man Nov 2023 OP
I do not know H2O Man Nov 2023 #1
Maybe because your OP was so good, it deserved a 2nd post? OAITW r.2.0 Nov 2023 #2
Ha! H2O Man Nov 2023 #3
I never understood his cadence & it bugs the hell out of me. Now I do & it's worse Hekate Nov 2023 #4
It is toxic. H2O Man Nov 2023 #6
Con-artist "preachers" use such a cadence to hypnotize their marks. Hermit-The-Prog Nov 2023 #11
'it is the divisions that we are witness to today, between Good People, that poses the greatest threat.' elleng Nov 2023 #5
That is what H2O Man Nov 2023 #7
I have always thought that people are good, it is the Governments that suck. pwb Nov 2023 #8
And your granddaughter H2O Man Nov 2023 #13
The republicans and their corporate allies senseandsensibility Nov 2023 #9
Exactly! H2O Man Nov 2023 #14
Neutralising my feelings of hatred for tfg Bundbuster Nov 2023 #10
I hear you. H2O Man Nov 2023 #18
neutralising these emotions? Saoirse9 Nov 2023 #12
Great question. H2O Man Nov 2023 #19
Wise words Saoirse9 Nov 2023 #27
Very interesting! H2O Man Nov 2023 #32
It's important that we not relinquish to Trump, more fear than he deserves. jaxexpat Nov 2023 #15
That is it. H2O Man Nov 2023 #20
It's amazing to read how you weave current events into your thoughtful OPs malaise Nov 2023 #16
Thank you! H2O Man Nov 2023 #21
Thank you, my dear H20 Man, for this clear explanation of what's going on. CaliforniaPeggy Nov 2023 #17
Thanks, Peggy! H2O Man Nov 2023 #22
Aw, thank you, dear H20 Man . . . CaliforniaPeggy Nov 2023 #23
Thank you for your lovely essay Wild blueberry Nov 2023 #24
Thanks! H2O Man Nov 2023 #28
One of your best essays, Dear Sir... OneGrassRoot Nov 2023 #25
Also... OneGrassRoot Nov 2023 #26
Thank you! H2O Man Nov 2023 #29
Sorry for the late reply... OneGrassRoot Nov 2023 #33
I don't consider H2O Man Nov 2023 #34
Empathy must be practiced mindfully redqueen Nov 2023 #30
Thank you! H2O Man Nov 2023 #31
K&R spanone Nov 2023 #35
Thanks! H2O Man Nov 2023 #36

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
3. Ha!
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 06:41 PM
Nov 2023

I was thinking that maybe one for both of the people who agree with me, the other for those who don't.

Hekate

(90,848 posts)
4. I never understood his cadence & it bugs the hell out of me. Now I do & it's worse
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 06:53 PM
Nov 2023

Kick. Rec. Bookmark.

elleng

(131,176 posts)
5. 'it is the divisions that we are witness to today, between Good People, that poses the greatest threat.'
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 06:54 PM
Nov 2023

pwb

(11,292 posts)
8. I have always thought that people are good, it is the Governments that suck.
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 07:02 PM
Nov 2023

But recently my feeling for people has been knocked on its ass by trump and people like him who use luck and wealth as a weapon to hold us all back. As my Granddaughter would say, " he is not nice".

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
13. And your granddaughter
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 08:05 PM
Nov 2023

would be right! There are people without the slightest bit of Good in them. Being good to your family doesn't qualify one for being "good." That is found on one's relationship to others.

senseandsensibility

(17,157 posts)
9. The republicans and their corporate allies
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 07:12 PM
Nov 2023

in the media and donor class know that we outnumber them. Their only hope is to divide us. That really explains a lot. Great OP, H20 man!

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
14. Exactly!
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 08:06 PM
Nov 2023

Thank you for noting corporations. There are those that make money from the toxins the defendent inject into society. And there is nothing more unconscious than a corporation.

Bundbuster

(3,205 posts)
10. Neutralising my feelings of hatred for tfg
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 07:19 PM
Nov 2023

is perhaps the most difficult emotional exercise of my life. I know that these feelings are caustic and even self-destructive. But when I review the cumulative damage & gleeful destruction that he has reaped upon millions of people, as well as on institutions of government, I recoil with loathing. In my long life there is no other human who has inspired this degree of hatred enmity. Even worse is the undeniable fact that so many murcans fully support his goals and means of attaining power. I'll spend my remaining days trying to reconcile these realities and the toll which they take.

Thanks, H2O Man, for helping with some steps toward that peace.

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
18. I hear you.
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 09:05 PM
Nov 2023

I find him far more repulsive than I did Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1 & 2, and Dick Cheney.

One thing I know is that the defendent wants everyone to think about him daily. And the media has helped him achieve that. There are times when I see him that I can feel the same things churning inside me, as I did as a young man on the day that I had a boxing match against an opponent who I wanted to punish.

So I try not to watch him. Instead, I focus on thinking about crushing him next November. In a sense, I try to approach it much like I did a fight -- being fully prepared, because most fights are won or lost before one climbs into the ring. So I prepare to do whatever it takes, though in this case, it is almost the opposite of boxing.

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
19. Great question.
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 11:33 PM
Nov 2023

I'm not sure I can dully answer that. But even someone like King had his down time, where he told semi-crude jokes about people ranging from Bull Connor to JFK. And that's okay, even good, as there is a time and place for everything. That could be with a small group of associates, and at times on an internet forum.

It requires a few things, and while these are not easy, they actually take less energy than being anxious, angry, and upset. I mentioned boxing in one of the responses above, and in training your mind, you use similar approaches. That means practicing, over and over, and being patient with one's self. For if you can't be patient with yourself, you will have great difficulty being patient with others. And the more that emotions play a role in impatience with others at a distance, the more difficult it becomes with people in your circle of family and friends.

We need to respect that others, based upon their life experiences and current life, can see things differently than we do. That not everything is a clear right or wrong ...... there are degrees, as well as things were there isn't right or wrong, only opinion. This is not, of course, to say that there are not lots ofissues of right and wrong -- obviously, the whole maga philosophy is wrong. I'm not saying to engage with them, as detaching is so often essential. However one can keep their balance.

What I am speaking about is the divisions that could damage our ability to crush the defendent & cult in the election. We are witnessing some of them gathering force across the country, including on the internet. I am hesitant to discuss some of them here, because they are issues people have very strong opinions on, and too often do not listen closely and respectfully to others who think differently. It's not that I think DUers are not going to vote for Democratic Party candidates next year. It has to do with attitudes that, expressed in other contexts, are sure to offend a segment of voters that we need for decisive victories.

Saoirse9

(3,684 posts)
27. Wise words
Fri Nov 17, 2023, 01:30 PM
Nov 2023

I have to be more careful at work. I keep asking the wrong questions and being shocked by the answers.

There was a speaker at my school talking to theology teachers about gender issues. I asked my boss what the speaker said and her screeching answer was that radical liberal professors at medical schools were indoctrinating our children to believe they are transgender. Then she blamed it on TikTok, and said kids were getting their gender related ideas there.

I have no idea if that’s what the speaker really said or not. But now I realize that at the very least my boss has some degree of mental illness.

A later question about vaccine conspiracy theories resulted in an even crazier answer.

How might you have dealt with these two scenarios?

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
32. Very interesting!
Fri Nov 17, 2023, 04:03 PM
Nov 2023

Let's take one of the two issues. We'll go with that of the rise of transgender issues. I think there is a wide range of opinions on this, with quite a few going towards the extremes of one side or another.

Are there human beings who are born into the wrong body? Certainly. There always have been. That is a serious issue that deserves our respect and care. And modern medical technology does provide a large part of the answer, though it still does not address the social aspects.

More -- and I'm not going "Alex Jones" here -- there are a few studies that suggest a chemical that industry discards as waste into the environment may cause gender issues in some amphibians. This isn't to be mistaken for "proof" that the chemical does, merely that some studies have raised the question. If it did, would that possibly be a cause for the increase we see in human beings in America today? I have no idea. What I do know is that either way, it is not part of some plot. Way too many toxins are dumped by industry, and besides those that can cause cancer, we have no idea what the long-term, multi-generational implications there may be.

I try to keep an open mind on most issues. (An exception would be that I strongly oppose the attempts to control women's health care, based upon one's religious beliefs.) I know that rigid opinions, like most rigid things, tend to break under pressure. So I try to listen to everyone, especially those who are not rigid.

Should issues of sexuality be taught in public schools? I tend to think that there are distinctions between students in grade school versus high school. I think a case can be made for high school students covering sexuality, like religions, in a comparative manner. But that excludes rigid, agenda teaching.

From my own experience, I have known idividuals who have had surgies as adults. I am happy for them for that, though I find some other people's reactions offensive. At the same time, I've encountered several people -- teenagers -- who were unhappy with their lives, and who thought a change of sex would solve their problems. They began identifying as a member of the oppositesex, but found that the quality of their lives did not improve, and went back. Their experience does not dictate to everyone, of course. But it is important to recognize that teens struggle with identity, as they always have in modern society.

Little children often play, be it cowboys and Indians or a thousand others. That does not mean a five year old was born in the wrong body. Rather, it means they are playing, which is one of the ways a child's mind grows. I would venture that a person who cannot identify the differences between a 5 year old, a 15 year old, and a 25 year old has rigid thinking. But that is only my opinion, based entirely upon my life experience. I have no problem with people having different opinions, so long as they do not attempt to force them on others.

malaise

(269,201 posts)
16. It's amazing to read how you weave current events into your thoughtful OPs
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 08:23 PM
Nov 2023

Now what is the neutralizing agent that can clean up this mess and remove the stench of the Slobfather and his goons.

Fabulous OP.

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
21. Thank you!
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 11:39 PM
Nov 2023

I really appreciate that. (I had told a Good Friend who lurks on DU that when I put a lot of thought into a post, they usually sink like a stone. I'm glad that some people here like this one.)

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
22. Thanks, Peggy!
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 11:42 PM
Nov 2023

I always appreciate your contributions on DU -- and elsewhere. Your photographs are the type of things that calm one's mind.

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,726 posts)
23. Aw, thank you, dear H20 Man . . .
Thu Nov 16, 2023, 11:46 PM
Nov 2023

I just posted a crescent moon on Facebook and in the Photo Group. Come on over and smile!

Wild blueberry

(6,665 posts)
24. Thank you for your lovely essay
Fri Nov 17, 2023, 12:35 PM
Nov 2023

Full of thought and intuition.

Believe we can deploy our soul force with kindness, taking care of ourselves and those around us.
Appreciate your analogy of sulfuric acid and how to neutralize it. The other ingredient is humor.
Those who are cruel and greedy can be deflated by a good laugh.
Thank you.

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
28. Thanks!
Fri Nov 17, 2023, 02:10 PM
Nov 2023

I agree 100% about humor! It has the power to deflate, exactly as you note. It also has the power to help people relax. At other times, to deal with abnormal situations.

I like to view things as systems. In a family system, if we look at it from outside of the frame, there are times when one person must be weak, for another to be strong. Understanding this makes it easier to understand dynamics, and not judge too much. If we expand this model, then it just might be that the weakness we see in others offers te opportunity for us to be stronger. In fact, being stronger is the only thing that will get us through this strange period of time.

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
25. One of your best essays, Dear Sir...
Fri Nov 17, 2023, 12:46 PM
Nov 2023

Thank you for sharing your insights and wisdom. Also, hat tip for the Bahai quote, as it is also one of my favorites.

This is one of the most concise readings to come onto my path in a long while that makes me want to read it again, and again, and process.



And, of course, a huge K&R

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
26. Also...
Fri Nov 17, 2023, 12:55 PM
Nov 2023

while I certainly understand and appreciate the conflicts amongst Good People you mention here, I couldn't help but think of terrorist groups, like Hamas, ISIS and even the violence within MAGA and white nationalist groups.

How to neutralize the hatred they spew? It struck me that perhaps the only way to truly neutralize the hatred at the core of their beliefs and actions is for those who share SOME of their beliefs to show the good and another way forward.

The hatred such groups as ISIS feel toward the west can perhaps only or most effectively be neutralized by fellow Muslims more loudly preaching the love of Islam and how their actions are NOT sanctioned in the Qur'an and to refocus on the love and compassion within their teachings.

That would be true of all religions, of course.

The hatred some white people have toward people of color shouldn't be expected to be neutralized by POC continuing the work of trying to be seen as equally human and deserving of respect by other humans. That's the job of white people, especially those who have changed their views from hate to love and acceptance, not mere tolerance.

And so on and so forth. It feels like a monumental, perhaps hopeless task, one I've tried to do throughout my life, to no avail, so I then chose shunning.

Your words make me want to re-evaluate and begin anew.

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
29. Thank you!
Fri Nov 17, 2023, 02:46 PM
Nov 2023

You raise numerous important points. I'm going to have to try not to write an overly long response!

Let's apply your points to one of the more divisive issues at this time, the Israeli-Palestinian war. Polls show a very significant difference in the opinions of Americans under 35 versus over 60 years of age. A person can have any of a wide range of opinions that are largely valid, but it is human nature that we see the errors in others' opinions, but not our own.

In my opinion -- worth no more or less than anyone else's -- is that the leadership of both sides is part of the problem. And I'm not talking about the right of self-defense, nor the need for justice. But even the concept of "leaders" rather than simply representatives poses problems. Looking for a "leader" is a sign that one is immature. High school boys obey the coach, right? Is that not why the military seeks young adults who will unquestionably follow their "leader's" commands?

At what level is one responsible for their actions? If the leader says to go to war and kill the "evil enemy," young soldiers do. What if your governor commends you to kill people from another state? Or the mayor demands you attack city? That sounds foolish, of course, but we know it happened in the past in this country. We are approaching that level of "leadership" with the defendent today. For he makes near daily calls for his cult to engage in extreme violence, does he not?

Now let's consider the numerous rallies of young adults supporting Palestine. The more we Elders say, "No, you are wrong," the tighter that door is shut. This allows those who wittingly, unwittingly, and half-wittingly support Hamas to have a greater voice. Those who advocate violence to have an audience. Is it not better for Democrats -- who require the votes of youth, including the participation of sincere activists -- to say, "Yes, I hear you, I appreciate your concerns. But here is what I think"? To point out that neither Hamas not Netanyahu hav the apacity to bring about an end to the mindless murder of innocent human beings?

I could go on and on.

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
33. Sorry for the late reply...
Sat Nov 18, 2023, 09:26 PM
Nov 2023

I agree with everything you said.

Dems most definitely should approach the youth as you suggest. Obama recently spoke about this and how NO ONE can glean all of the truth re the Israel-Palestine horrors in brief social media posts.

Shit is complex but younger people are prone to black-or-white thinking. I certainly was in my youth.

The ONLY thing I can think of that would help is for Bibi to be forced out as many Israelis seem to want.

Get rid of him and reject the right-wing extremist Likud as a step toward neutralization and maybe the Palestinians with the support of Arab nations can actively try to destroy Hamas. It does feel like only internally-led actions stand the best chance of lasting change. Outside forces breed more contempt.

I realize what I just said is quite simplistic but it’s in keeping with the thought process your essay’s triggered.

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
34. I don't consider
Sun Nov 19, 2023, 12:17 AM
Nov 2023

your reply to be late. It's always the right time to talk with Good Friends.

There are a number of similar topics that I don't see any need to debate or argue about. Now, I'm voting for Biden/Harris. I know people who think Joe is too old, and others who aren't big on Kamala. My brother says that no man in his 80s could do the job he used to do 60 hours a week, and the presidency is full-time. I remind him of our neighbor Ike, who was in his 80s and out-worked us when we filled the barn with loose hay. A friend reminds me that Harris did not do well in the 2020 primaries. I tell him that she has done well as vice president.

Despite our differences of opinion, I am 100% confident both will vote for Biden/Harris next November. I'm not concerned with who they might vote for in the primary.

A good number of people -- including kids in their 30s and 40s -- like RFK, Jr. I like Robert, too. I've been friends with him for over 35 years. But I'm not supporting him, or voting for him. I've only had discussions with one young man who supports Robert about if it comes down to a close election between President Biden and the defendent. He said in that case, he will vote for President Biden.

In my opinion, a number of the other current RGK supporters will do so, too .... and the others would otherwise likely to vote for the defendent. I'm good with that.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
30. Empathy must be practiced mindfully
Fri Nov 17, 2023, 02:55 PM
Nov 2023

It's hard, but it can be done, because we're all human.

And it must be done, if we are ever to get away from the habit of demonizing out groups to protect the in group.

We don't need to be hateful towards or demonize people - it can be cathartic but imo it's harmful. And also the habit of labeling people with a behavior, and calling the person horrible when they're actual a redeemable human being like all of us - it's the thing they're doing that is the problem.

Sorry, went on a tangent anyway really appreciate this OP. K&R

H2O Man

(73,627 posts)
31. Thank you!
Fri Nov 17, 2023, 03:17 PM
Nov 2023

And especially thanks for going on a tangent, as it is exactly the type of thoughtful response that promotes good conversation!

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