Is it anti-semitic to say a Jewish senator represents Israel?

[CreekDog]

Last edited Tue Nov 13, 2012, 06:51 PM - Edit history (1)

i think so.

how many times have we read on DU that Tom Lantos was congressman from Israel, that Lieberman was Senator from Israel, etc. etc.?

UPDATE:

i've only read this about Senators who are Jewish. i've never read this type of snark directed at a non-Jewish senator.

i have never heard anyone call Senator McCain that.

[MotherPetrie]

1. Nope! If they put another country's interests ahead of the U.S., they represent that country.

Simple as that.

Religion has nothing to do with it.

Despite some people's best efforts to make it seem so.

[KamaAina]

55. As far as I know, there is no such thing as anti-Boeingism.

False equivalence.

[NoPasaran]

65. Since the phrasing of the OP has been changed I have deleted my post.

[Glorfindel]

3. Of course not

n/t

[MrSlayer]

4. No.

It would be no different than calling someone the Senator from Brazil if they put Brazil's interests above those of the U.S..

[treestar]

5. I don't think so

In fact fundie Christians can support Israel to an extreme degree too, in that they think it brings on Armageddon.

[hrmjustin]

75. +1

[Carolina]

6. NO!

and certainly not when it applies because they have some control over the federal purse strings and love sending "aid" to Israel which is a bully nation ... something Iraq never was.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

7. Absolutely NOT.

Lieberman always seemed to forget where he was born, lived and in whose government he was serving.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. There's Not Much Difference In Say, Bill Nelson's, Voting Record On Israel And Joe Lieberman's

Wouldn't it be accurate to call Bill Nelson the senator from Israel as well ?

Or John Kerry

Or the ninety eight or so senators and four hundred or so House members who vote basically the same way when it comes to Israel

[CreekDog]

56. i agree, but the thing is the only say it about Jewish senators.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

58. Perhaps because it is the Jewish senators who are paying members of AIPAC?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. I Don't Think Jewish Senators Are Paying Members Of AIPAC.

Do you have a list. I have been searching the internet in vain for it.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

62. I doubt you'd find a memebership

list unless you're an accomplished hacker and you can donate without becoming a member of any of their 'clubs'. Don't you have any Jewish friends who donate to the organization?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. I Like All People But Most Of My Friends Aren't Jewish. Only A Couple Are...

And most of them aren't wealthy enough to donate to AIPAC or any other group; certainly not wealthy enough to be a sustaining member.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

71. You might be surprised....

[Sekhmets Daughter]

72. I was joking about disliking everybody equally...

:

[Sekhmets Daughter]

57. Nope.

Nelson has a large Jewish constituency but he is not a war monger like Lieberman...neither is John Kerry. You can separate Kerry and Nelson from AIPAC, not Lieberman.

America has supported Israel since it was created in May of 1948. Most Americans agree with that position as they never read foreign newspapers and have little sympathy for the Palestinians. Personally I resent Netanyahu like I have never resented an Israeli Prime Minister before and Israel and I are the same age. I hope he has been made deeply uncomfortable about his outright support of
Romney and I hope Obama continues to give him the cold shoulder.

My late honey was Jewish, I am not and never have been anti-semitic...I dislike everybody equally.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. I'm Not A Big Fan Of Netanyahu or Lieberman. I'm Well To The Left Of Both Gentlemen.

If I was an Israeli I would vote Labor.


But even if you are going to reduce it down to rhetoric instead of actual votes what has Joe Lieberman said about Israel that's so different than any other garden variety politician of either party.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

63. Have you never wondered why

he both endorsed and campaigned for John McCain?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. Lieberman Is One Of My Least Favorite Politicians

I just think his religion and his support for Israel don't make him all that different than most American politicians on both sides of the aisle. Ironically, his support for McCain shows that it's possible to get to the right of Lieberman on Israel and the use of American military power.

I do give him credit for working so hard to repeal DADT and being a bridge to the 'moderate' Republican senators whose votes were necessary to ensure its defeat.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

70. He supported McCain for being so far right on Israel...

Further right than he dared to be coming out of CT. You have to understand Lieberman's role in the senate has been to lead the cheering section for all things Israeli...even if it works against American interests.

Chuck Schumer is Jewish and his voting record is probably identical to Lieberman's yet he is not as hawkish...I donated to his 2010 campaign in fact. However, I won't be surprised if he takes the baton from Lieberman and becomes the main conduit to the senate from AIPAC. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I don't believe that it is a matter of anti-semitism for most people....but rather a matter of an uncomfortable feeling that Lieberman would lead us into still another war.

[hifiguy]

8. No. LIEberman hasn't been a representative of

the people of Connecticut for at least ten years. I am as glad to see Moldy Joe leave as I am that shithead kook Allen West. What is so offensive about LIEberman is that he represents only the hard-liners in Israel.

[former-republican]

37. He did use the connections he had to keep the sea wolf fast attack subs and EB stay open

I grant you it wasn't all him but without Lieberman fighting to keep EB and the Sub base open

Groton would have become a ghost town.

[sabrina 1]

52. He's not the only one who would have done that. He just happened to be there at the time.

It can only benefit this country that he is finally gone from the Senate. He got away with opposing this President in the 2008 election, not a word of reprisal was ever said about him, as he stumped for McCain/Palin and still retained his powerful positions in the Senate granted by the Dems.

It was sickening to watch that no matter how he betrayed his own party, Dems still gave him a standing ovation after he left the party, refused to accept his defeat by Dems in the primary, and went on to take oodles of right wing money to defeat the Dem.

I don't care so much about the rest, but he betrayed the Dem Party and for that alone I am glad he is gone.

[cbayer]

9. I think dual loyalty accusations are anti-semitic.

It is almost always used in a negative manner.

[redgreenandblue]

78. You mean always? Even in instances when they are true?

Your definition of what constitutes anti-semitism is weird. Anti-semitism means "hatred of Jews" or "bigotry against Jews". Nothing more, nothing less.

It would perhaps be anti-semitic to assert that Jewish people or Jewish politicians by default hold a greater loyalty to Israel than to the US.

But looking at a particular individual and concluding based on evidence that this specific person holds a dual-loyalty most certainly is not.

[cbayer]

84. In the cases being described (Jewish legislators), I think dual loyalty accusations are

anti-semitic. They are, imo, exactly what you describe - accusations that these politicians hold a greater loyalty to Israel than to the US. There is an implication that if there is a conflicting interest in the two loyalties, they will side with Israel against the best interest of the US. It is usually used to attack that person as a traitor of some sort.

Dual loyalty needs to be distinguished from dual nationalism, where someone maintains an interest or pride in another national identity, but there is no conflict of interest.

[redgreenandblue]

85. Who exactly has been accused of such dual loyalties?

I can really only think of a single person, Joe Lieberman, against which such an accusation has been made here on DU, from what I have seen. I think in this particular instance, there is no telling where his loyalties lie.

[elleng]

10. Maybe,

depends on the voting record. If it's said JUST because s/he is Jewish, then, yes (in addition to being stupid,) but if it's said due to voting record, then, NO.
JMJewishO.

[2ndAmForComputers]

11. Depends

on what exactly the senator in question is saying and doing.

[LeftishBrit]

12. Usually, yes

Especially if they have the same policies as loads of other politicians, but only the Jewish ones are considered to represent 'Israel'. In general, dual-loyalty allegations are antisemitic or otherwise xenophobic.

[joeybee12]

13. Definitely not in liar-berman's case, although more accurately he should be

Joe Liarberman (R-ME), and I don't mean Maine.

[karynnj]

14. Not anti-semetic necessarily, but often stupid and almost always offensive

You may not be old enough to remember that an argument used (unsuccessfully) against Kennedy was that he would take orders from the Pope. The idea that someone who is Jewish, "represents" a country that they likely never lived in is silly. In addition, to assume that all Jews are in agreement with the Israeli government is as silly as all Americans agree with President Obama (or President Bush).

[William769]

15. May I ask what this is in reference to?

There are a whole lot of generalizations that can be made here about many different groups.

Anyone that says no is full of shit and anti-semitic. Of course if I made a blanket statement about certain Groups People would be yelling for me to be PPRD!

Some people just don't think before they type, or is it they do think before they type?

[CreekDog]

18. sure, though it's pretty veild a reference --though completely transparent too!

yes, that's possible!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021807677

[William769]

23. Not destined to last long.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Would Barney Frank Have Been The House Member From GLAD Or Israel? I'm Confused

Or would he have been the GLAD House member from Israel?

[William769]

24. And here I thought he was the House member from MA!

My bad.

[kentuck]

16. Does Israel have Senators??

Or are you talking about a United States Senator? The answer is in the question.

[Autumn]

17. Not at all. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Romney & The Republican Party In General Are To The Right Of Every Jewish Senator And Representative

Romney and the Republicans are to the right of every Jewish Senator and House member on Israel including Lieberman. Should they be called the political party from Israel?

[Aerows]

29. Lieberman is different

and he is to the right of every other Jewish Senator and House member on Israel. I disagree with you on that. This isn't him getting a bum rap from something he didn't cause himself, and this isn't a ding on supporting positions on Israel, either. Plenty of people support those same Senators and House members you just spoke of on their positions. They just aren't as radical as Lieberman has always been.

In any case, he's gone, good riddance. Bitching about him after the fact now that he has retired is pointless. My main beef with him was over the ACA. His wife benefited from it not passing, and he did everything under the sun to keep it from passing. Thank GOD he's gone, because more than being pro-Israel or pro-Anything-Else, he's always been Pro-Joe to the exclusion of all else.

[hifiguy]

30. LIEberman did not merely "support Israel."

Many US politicians do. What made Moldy Joe different is the he was an active and enthusiastic water carrier for the most right-wing war-mongering elements in Israeli politics. That is a BIG difference.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. There Are So Many Things Wrong With Lieberman

There are so many things wrong with Joe Lieberman but the fact he happens to be Jewish and a outspoken supporter of Israel isn't one of them.

I have a much bigger problem with his unctuous manner and toadying up to Bush*

[leveymg]

21. Only if he does. Lieberman. Which one?

[Aerows]

25. No. If you put the interest

of another country ahead of your own, you aren't acting as an American. Plain and simple.

It's also not wrong to call some members of Congress the "Congressperson from Bumfuckistan" when they put their own narrow ideology over the values of the United States, either.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. Since Lieberman's Votes On Israel Are Virtually Indistinguishable

Since Lieberman's votes on Israel are virtually indistinguishable from every other House and Senate member wouldn't it be fair to say they are all the senators and House members from Israel?

And given the president's remarks in his debate with Romney shouldn't he be called the president from Israel?

[Aerows]

27. No, and they aren't "virtually indistinguishable"

nor are his stated position on anything to do with Israel.

When people tell you what they believe, act like they believe it, and then follow through with it, I tend to believe them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. Res Ipsa Loquitur

After midnight yesterday, the Senate voted 90 to 1 to express the "sense of the Congress" as weighing in on the debate about what red lines the U.S. should declare against Iran. You'll remember this issue as the one roiling the relationship between Benjamin Netanyahu and President Obama at the moment. On the Hill, almost everyone—including most of the Democrats—just sided with Netanyahu.


...


In the end, Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) cast the only vote against the measure and two Democrats—Boxer and Washington's Patty Murray—abstained along with seven Republicans (one being the convalescing Senate hawk Mark Kirk). Insofar as Mitt Romney can pick and hold onto any position, the Congress sided with him too. (Someone forgot to tell the Democrats that Republicans have already politicized Iran red lines.)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/22/sense-of-the-congress-with-bibi-over-obama.html

Here's the president's remarks from his debate with Willard Romney:

“Number two, make sure that they are standing by our interests in Israel’s security, because it is a true friend and our greatest ally in the region.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/obama-romney-pledge-support-to-israel-in-final-presidential-debate/2012/10/22/f437a780-1cba-11e2-9cd5-b55c38388962_blog.html

[Poll_Blind]

28. LOL! So TRUE, Aerows! There's too many of 'em from Bumfuckistan!

PB

[Bucky]

31. No, but it's thin ice.

[Aerows]

33. And let's face it

This is a shit-stirring thread.

[leftynyc]

34. Yes - it is anti-semitic

Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about. You don't hear any of the senators representing evangelicals called Israeli representatives...only Jewish ones.

[Scurrilous]

39. Good point.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. I Think It's Fair To Say That The Fundys And Their Representatives In Congress Are To The Right

I think it's fair to say that the Fundys and their representaives in Congress, almost the entire Republican party, are moving the debate over Israel to the right, and pulling the entire Congress along with them.

That's why it's unfair to single out any member of Congress...

[liberal_at_heart]

43. +1

just because someone has differences of opinion on politics does not mean it is okay to call them a represetative of Isreal. That's as bad as the republicans saying that Obama's loyalties lie with Kenya.

[Aerows]

35. The man is retired

I don't like him for a multitude of reasons that have to do with his positions and conflicts of interests during the health care debates.

What is your point with this shit-stirring thread? Oh, I get it. Joe has retired and now we can claim that everyone that disliked him secretly did so because liberals hate Jewish people.

That is what this smells like to me. And I'm going to stop stirring in this pile of shit, because it will just make it stink more.

The man is gone. Get over it. He RETIRED.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. The point? Sniff this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021807677

[Aerows]

40. That doesn't make this any less

of a shit-stirring thread than that one is.

But by all means, let's keep stirring in it.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. The other thread was shit-stirring, but that doesn't seem to bother you.

The one that bothers you is the one complaining about anti-Semitism.

[Aerows]

42. I said both of them were

And for the record, I didn't even see that thread, so no, I didn't get the opportunity for it to bother me because I didn't see it. If it makes you feel better, now that I did see it, I'm bothered by it.

Should I reply to it, too, and announce that it's shit-stirring, or is it okay if I just state it here?

And let me point out what I said up thread: "It's also not wrong to call some members of Congress the "Congressperson from Bumfuckistan" when they put their own narrow ideology over the interests of the United States, either."

I stand by that.

[yardwork]

46. I think it makes this a perfectly relevant, important thread.

First off, this thread is not attacking any senator, retired or not. It's pointing out that posts like the one in the link are anti-Semitic, which they are.

I think it's possible that you have misunderstood.

[Aerows]

49. Okay

Well, I'm from Bumfuckistan. I call the Congressperson from Bumfuckistan exactly that, because they put their narrow agendas and ideology over the well-being of all Americans.

That said, I see your point. It is Anti-Semitic because people focus in on the fact that he is Jewish and equate that with Israel. It doesn't make me any less relieved that he has retired because I didn't like him for things that had nothing to do with his positions on Israel, anymore than I get relieved when an idiot from Bumfuckistan retires and gets replaced with someone that is from BF, but isn't as big of an idiot.

[CreekDog]

53. are you okay? i've been a big critic of him here, but this thread i called out an unfair criticism

of him, based in part on his heritage.

[Aerows]

59. I didn't see the original thread

Had you linked it, I might have had a different response. As you can see upthread, I mellowed my response.

When you just ask blind, and rather loaded questions, though, with no indication of why you are asking them, be prepared for a myriad of responses. People are generally pretty fair here on DU. When you ask them leading questions, though, expecting to get a response with vagueries, then you end up stirring up shit.

That's why I called it shit-stirring. You should have been direct in the first place.

[yardwork]

45. Yes. It's equating being Jewish with "representing Israel." It's a smear.

[Starry Messenger]

47. I think it usually is.

Dual loyalty is an old charge leveled at Jewish people from long ago. Also it has the whiff of things used to say about the Kennedy's that they were "popish" and would only be loyal to Rome, etc.

The US government as a whole supports Israel, so singling anyone out on the basis of their religious background on that score seems whiffy to me.

[stevenleser]

48. Yes, it is anti-semitic. If one thinks they put Israels interests first, say so. Dont say they are

'from' Israel.

[BlueMan Votes]

50. not if you see it as a good thing.

[4th law of robotics]

51. Would it be racist to say Obama represents Kenya?

Yeah, I think it would.

Now if you can cite specific instances of what they've done to support Israel over the US then ok. But as a blanket statement merely because he's Jewish, yeah that comes across as anti-semetic.

/didn't Kennedy get this stuff regarding the Vatican?

[stevenleser]

80. Yes, and yes, bigoted to say Kennedy/Catholic represents the Vatican. nt

[KamaAina]

54. I always thought so

Fortunately, once LIEberman moves on to, one imagines, an analyst gig at Faux , we won't have to worry about it anymore.

[NoPasaran]

66. I don't know if it's anti-semitic itself

But it's the sort of thing that's said by antisemites.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. Lieberman Is A Ass Hat*. No Need To Go Futher

Except for his tireless work to end DADT.

[NoPasaran]

69. I will not speak ill of Senator Lieberman

After my father passed away, he helped my family out in a matter when no one else would. I'll just leave it at that.

[Ken Burch]

87. OK. Fair enough.

n/t.

[Megahurtz]

73. NO nfm

[hrmjustin]

74. No I don't think it is anti-semitic

[Agnosticsherbet]

76. It is inaccurate, since they was elected here in the U.S.

Now, if you asked "is it anti-semitic to accuse all elected Jewish officials here in the U.S. of being representatives of Israel, that would be anti-semitic, as they are all being painted with a broad and inaccurate brush.

What these people really mean is that they disagree with these Congressmen or Senator's policies toward the state of Israel, and feel they are too supportive of policies that support Israel over other nations in that region.

But that takes too many words and they might need to actually discuss policies and relative cultural values of the different nations.

[unblock]

77. is it racist to say that obama represents kenya?

fuck yes it's anti-semitic.

look, the reality is that there's VERY little difference, beyond rhetoric, in actual politics toward isreal.

just as against the ussr during the cold war, both parties, and virtually all members in both parties, regarded the ussr as an enemy to be wary of and tough against, and regard israel as an ally to be strongly supportive of. there are occassional rhetorical differences, particularly in how palestinians are regarded, but for the most part the actual policies are the same.

so statements such as "represents israel" are not made out of any real sense of policy difference because there really is none, but rather as an anti-semitic attack.

[dogknob]

79. No. n/t

[no_hypocrisy]

81. Anti-Zionist is not equivalent with antisemitic.

One is be opposed to the State of Israel and its policies and the other is to be against a religion and its disciples.

[CreekDog]

83. first, it's never explained that way and second, why is it only pointed out this way towards Jews?

if it's not bigoted, then why does nobody say about a non-Jewish senator/congressman, "oh, they are the representative from Israel".

[redgreenandblue]

82. If it is said about Jewish senators in general, yes. If it targets a specific individual, no.

At least not necessarly.

"Bigotry" generally implies that you are making broad assumptions that every individual of a certain group behaves a certain way. If you are looking at individuals on a case by case basis, and making statements about their character and motives, based on evidence that refers to this specific individual, this cannot be bigotry by definition.

[Behind the Aegis]

86. But it is bigotry if you base your opinion of the individual on group stereotypes.

A black person can be lazy. But, if you call a black person lazy just because s/he is black, then that is also bigotry! If you call a Jewish congressperson "a representative of Israel," because s/he is Jewish, that is bigotry. If you do the same, despite the Jewish congressperson having the same voting as other members of Congress, that is bigotry. If you do the same, despite ever failing to provide anything resembling proof of said treason, then that is bigotry.

[redgreenandblue]

88. I guess we agree then.