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closeupready

(29,503 posts)
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:18 PM Nov 2012

Should I laugh or cry: Radical Homemaker explains 'going off the grid'

>>Hayes is not only a spokeswoman for the movement, she says. She's its stereotype:

"I burn wood, use solar panels, I'm usually barefoot, I home-school my kids."

She and her husband commit to idling their one car, a Toyota RAV4, several days a week. They can fruits and vegetables, barter, make their clothes or hit secondhand shops, and go to the grocery store just once a month. The family spends less than $45,000 a year.
---------------------
Whether the movies clicked with her, her answer came out in whole cloth. "It is essential for everyone to be at least halfway radical," she began. "By not being that, that's how our country got into trouble, by everyone thinking someone else would take care of things."<<

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20121105_Daniel_Rubin__The__Radical_Homemaker__explains_the_benefits_of_going_off_the_grid.html

Excuse me, Ms. Hayes, but part of the responsibility that goes with being an active member of society is that sometimes you do have to take care of other members of that society. Otherwise, what you've got is not a society, but an Ayn-Rand style jungle.

Or am I misreading her message? Anyone familiar with her book or mission?

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Should I laugh or cry: Radical Homemaker explains 'going off the grid' (Original Post) closeupready Nov 2012 OP
off the consumer grid =/= anti-social isolationist Viking12 Nov 2012 #1
Okay, but serious question, how do people struggling closeupready Nov 2012 #3
They've been making the Rav4 for what, fifteen years? LeftyMom Nov 2012 #12
To be fair, though, I didn't characterize her as a "trust fund brat"; closeupready Nov 2012 #16
There's nothing there to suggest that they are. LeftyMom Nov 2012 #20
With the $ one could save on food and energy, Viking12 Nov 2012 #21
There can be an area between living in a cave and living with every convienence Marrah_G Nov 2012 #29
I gather you don't live in rural northern California...? mike_c Nov 2012 #2
No, I don't - NYC - can you describe a bit closeupready Nov 2012 #5
I read the article at the link.. SomethingFishy Nov 2012 #4
I just think it's rather misleading to suggest closeupready Nov 2012 #7
Bill McKibben of 350.org encourages people to create less-dependent communities.... Junkdrawer Nov 2012 #6
I agree with this, in large measure because national politicals have become to corrupted to work in Blue Meany Nov 2012 #9
I read "Eaarth" and he lays out a good case.... Junkdrawer Nov 2012 #11
I always, in this case, and others lifesbeautifulmagic Nov 2012 #8
Being an active member of society does not require you to be Skidmore Nov 2012 #10
I didn't intend to mock; however, she self-published a book about closeupready Nov 2012 #15
I always thought "off the grid" meant.... llmart Nov 2012 #25
I know some "radical homemakers" gollygee Nov 2012 #13
In rural NorCal it's often very difficult to tell them apart. LeftyMom Nov 2012 #14
Or their guns XemaSab Nov 2012 #42
I know some really well armed hippies. LeftyMom Nov 2012 #45
She's "off the grid" but yet self promotes via an electronic medium. Javaman Nov 2012 #17
Every little bit helps Marrah_G Nov 2012 #28
Agreed. My current laptop cost $200. My wifi is $35/mo, powered by solar riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #34
I don't see anything that indicates that she isn't involved in her local community specifically. riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #18
Okay, thanks for the interesting post. closeupready Nov 2012 #19
Your a peach! riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #24
Oooo, if you use those jars with plastic rims, you are seriously scaring me!!! closeupready Nov 2012 #37
I've been w/o heat since the first week in September. Eddie Haskell Nov 2012 #22
Her kids should be well-adjusted citizens who contribute to society. LittlestStar Nov 2012 #23
I think you can't know that. Marrah_G Nov 2012 #27
I have been around a lot of kids from moms like that. LittlestStar Nov 2012 #39
There is nothing in the article that says she shelters her child from the world Marrah_G Nov 2012 #40
I think you are reading her wrong Marrah_G Nov 2012 #26
Oh okay, that makes sense. I actually agree with that 100%. closeupready Nov 2012 #38
This is an extreme, but I can't argue with living green and frugally. I just wonder what's costing Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #30
Mortgage, taxes, healthcare, basic living expenses, farming expenses (equipment, vet care, etc) Marrah_G Nov 2012 #36
her four tenets sound pretty solid: ecological sustainability, social justice, family, and community fishwax Nov 2012 #31
45K is quite a lot... JCMach1 Nov 2012 #32
Well, burning wood is pretty polluting but it is about helping all of us REP Nov 2012 #33
I am not familiar with her, but... Tree-Hugger Nov 2012 #35
Spend $45,000 a year? I know very few people that make that much in a year... nt Comrade_McKenzie Nov 2012 #41
Not Ayn-Rand, message is okay if you can accept that she is a bit of a fake in how she gets there DeschutesRiver Nov 2012 #43
YW. :-) closeupready Nov 2012 #44

Viking12

(6,012 posts)
1. off the consumer grid =/= anti-social isolationist
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:22 PM
Nov 2012

quite the contrary. unplugging from modern consumer culture actual creates the conditions for more authentic humna relationships and interactions

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
3. Okay, but serious question, how do people struggling
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:24 PM
Nov 2012

to make ends meet actually end up with a Toyota RAV4, trips to France, and $45,000/year?

Seems like they likely had a really good head start, and are probably living off interest from investments or trust funds.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
12. They've been making the Rav4 for what, fifteen years?
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:41 PM
Nov 2012

Assuming one only drove a few days a week one on the older end of that age range would be perfectly suitable. And while that's not quite digging the change out of the couch cushions cheap, a family with a couple of kids could easily pick one up for cash with their tax refund.

Edit: I don't know this person and I have no idea how old their car is and how they bought it. But it's hardly a model that could only be afforded by a trust fund brat.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
16. To be fair, though, I didn't characterize her as a "trust fund brat";
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:53 PM
Nov 2012

I'm just saying, trust funds are a very old and established means of transferring wealth. So not exactly an off-grid type of plan.

And I would have nothing against it if she did - I'm just saying, be upfront.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
20. There's nothing there to suggest that they are.
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 05:04 PM
Nov 2012

They say they spend about $45K/yr. That's a pretty modest living and I don't see why a farm plus book royalties wouldn't cover it.

Viking12

(6,012 posts)
21. With the $ one could save on food and energy,
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 06:33 PM
Nov 2012

a decent vehicle and travel could be within the budget of many. From other sources, it sounds like she earns a living wage farming, publishing, and writing.

Her lifestyle appears to be a modern enactment of the 1970's push toward Voluntary Simplicity (see: http://www.amazon.com/Voluntary-Simplicity-Outwardly-Inwardly-Revised/dp/B002QGSXJ6).

Another recent exercise can be found in the experiment of No Impact Man (see: http://noimpactman.typepad.com/)

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
2. I gather you don't live in rural northern California...?
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:22 PM
Nov 2012

That article describes half my friends and neighbors, LOL.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
5. No, I don't - NYC - can you describe a bit
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:27 PM
Nov 2012

about your neighbors who live similar lives? Not being specific, just in general.

I remember that book, Your Money Or Your Life, by Vickie Robins and her boyfriend (who died a few years back) - it was written to achieve a similar result but without pretense of being part of any philosophical school of thought. Thanks.

SomethingFishy

(4,876 posts)
4. I read the article at the link..
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:24 PM
Nov 2012

I don't see anything wrong here. There is nothing here convincing me these people are "selfish", more like self sufficient and creating a small carbon footprint.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
7. I just think it's rather misleading to suggest
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:28 PM
Nov 2012

they ever "left the grid" - if they are living off of investment income or trust funds, they are an essential PART of the grid.

Is there anything wrong with that? No, absolutely not.

Is there anything misleading about that? Well, yeah, kind of. IMHO.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
6. Bill McKibben of 350.org encourages people to create less-dependent communities....
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:28 PM
Nov 2012

We're heading to a world where Sandy-like disasters will be more common. Communities should be ready to help each other and not wait for the FEMA trucks.

 

Blue Meany

(1,947 posts)
9. I agree with this, in large measure because national politicals have become to corrupted to work in
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:35 PM
Nov 2012

the common interests. At the local level, this is till possible, although it can still be a struggle to overcome special interests. The changes that are required to make our society and economy sustainable are so radical that I just cannot imagine the federal government leading the way. And it's not just disasters, I'm thinking about. What happens when gas gets so expensive that it radically raises the price of everything else including food? It makes sense for local economies to be as self-sufficient as possible, so as not to have a "hard landing" when this occurs.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
11. I read "Eaarth" and he lays out a good case....
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:40 PM
Nov 2012

I also read "The End of Growth" by Richard Heinberg:

http://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/the-end-of-growth-book

and he comes to a very similar conclusion. We're going to crash - communities that have built in some self-reliance are the ones more likely to make it through.

lifesbeautifulmagic

(2,511 posts)
8. I always, in this case, and others
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:33 PM
Nov 2012

want people to define "trouble". What trouble is our country in? I have my own answers for that, but would like to hear hers.

Skidmore

(37,364 posts)
10. Being an active member of society does not require you to be
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:39 PM
Nov 2012

engaged constantly as a consumer of goods. It also does not preclude you from taking care of anyone else in society. We do many of the things she and her family does to stretch our income and spend annually in the same range. If you are living in a sustainable manner, conscious of your impact on the earth, how is that Randian? I fail to understand your mockery of someone who actually steps up and lives in such a way. Many people do. It used to be called thrift and was considered a virtue.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
15. I didn't intend to mock; however, she self-published a book about
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:51 PM
Nov 2012

her 'going off the grid' and speaks publicly about it. Thus, she is a public proponent of some version of simpler living.

However, she does that by spending $45,000 per year, acquiring and maintaining a Toyota SUV, and three months of the year on European vacations. She obtained a Ph.D. from Cornell University - apparently, without much debt, if any. I am not exaggerating, if the article to which I linked is accurate; to the contrary, she seems to be boasting to readers that she is nothing special, and that anyone can do this.

If this is her argument (ostensibly or not), then she is effectively misleading readers in my opinion. I know people who lost jobs in 2008 and are STILL looking for suitable replacement work. And they weren't making $45,000/year to begin with. They are scared and really living on the edge.

Just my opinion, not mockery.

llmart

(15,552 posts)
25. I always thought "off the grid" meant....
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 08:44 PM
Nov 2012

you lived without electricity.

I admit I didn't read the article but living on $45,000 a year is not a hardship. Sorry. I currently live on Social Security and a small pension that totals less than $14,000 a year. So do my two sisters. One of my brothers too. It can be done. I admire people who get off the consumer merry go round. I actually think all this emphasis on consumerism is ruining our country too. This whole election the emphasis has been on the economy like that's the only thing that makes our nation great. It isn't.

People in this country have made shopping and acquiring the focus of their lives.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
13. I know some "radical homemakers"
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:42 PM
Nov 2012

and about half are rabidly liberal, and about half are rabidly conservative. Same with "natural parenting" - in fact the same split and same group of people. They're related. It's an interesting movement.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
14. In rural NorCal it's often very difficult to tell them apart.
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:47 PM
Nov 2012

Unless you get a look at their book collection or their car.

Javaman

(62,534 posts)
17. She's "off the grid" but yet self promotes via an electronic medium.
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:57 PM
Nov 2012

yeah, whatever.

these "off the grid" types crack me up.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
28. Every little bit helps
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 08:50 PM
Nov 2012

Just because you use the computer doesn't mean that you can't lessen your impact on the earth in alot of other ways. In fact the internet is a fantastic way to learn to do things and to network with others to find ways to help heal the planet.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
34. Agreed. My current laptop cost $200. My wifi is $35/mo, powered by solar
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 09:13 PM
Nov 2012

So fussing about being connected as "not being green" just doesn't resonate with me.



One of the big debates post-Sandy was whether cell towers were now going to be considered "infrastructure" (which implies a whole nother level of federal subsidy than we currently assign wireless technology).

I inferred that would apply to all the other "wifi" connectivity we use.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
18. I don't see anything that indicates that she isn't involved in her local community specifically.
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:57 PM
Nov 2012

In general, I believe her message is great for our "earth community" so there's the social value of helping her fellow human with this movement. So even if her ONLY social "good" was codifying this movement, okay. I'm good with that.

Specifically there's no indication of what she does towards taking care of other members of that society. Honestly, if she only takes care of her family, her parents and her neighbors - well, I'd still applaud even that effort - sometimes that's all the extra you have to give.

Personally, I think its a GREAT message and I try to implement as much of it as I can in my own life. That doesn't make me anti-social (although I have been accused of being a big curmudgeon! )

Great article closeupready. Don't laugh OR cry! This is a great way of life....

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
24. Your a peach!
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 08:21 PM
Nov 2012

I'm also a weird conglomeration of self-sufficiency, "off the grid" productivity, and serendipitous rural good luck.

My life is strange. I will say I find it plausible that she's cobbled together her way of life without a trust fund. I/we did (my family). We're thriving - my husband and I have both come from poverty.

So your OP, and her message, kinda resonates with me but not in a bad way.

FWIW, I never go barefoot nor did I homeschool so there's that but I do cook like a fiend, garden, can and preserve so maybe I qualify as an extremist.... lol.

Eddie Haskell

(1,628 posts)
22. I've been w/o heat since the first week in September.
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 07:30 PM
Nov 2012

It hasn't been below 28 degrees, and I've actually enjoyed not having to worry about an open door. In an odd way, I feel closer to nature ... the air in the house is fresh, clean and invigorating. Still, I was told I'd get gas heat before the end of the month; but now the gas company tells me it may be 13 more weeks. Seems Sandy victims get priority over new customers ... no matter how long I've been waiting.

LittlestStar

(224 posts)
39. I have been around a lot of kids from moms like that.
Tue Nov 6, 2012, 01:41 AM
Nov 2012

I know the term "socially retarded" isn't used anymore, but the equivalent still occurs. Kids who are deprived of what most other kids get, living with beyond-bizarre parents. Whatever. No gifted programs for those kids, no scholarships, no normalcy. Whatever. If you had been around the kids after several years of that lifestyle you would not say that. I had a 14 year old who lived next to us who could not pronounce r's or s's but her ultra Catholic family refused to let the public school system "ruin" her. To listen to her you would have thought she was mentally challenged but in reality it was just biblical brainwashing and homeschooling at work. It should be illegal.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
40. There is nothing in the article that says she shelters her child from the world
Tue Nov 6, 2012, 07:45 AM
Nov 2012

This isn't a religious homeschooling parent. I believe you are making assumptions without all the facts.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
26. I think you are reading her wrong
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 08:48 PM
Nov 2012

She is going her part. What she means by not leaving it up to everyone else is that it takes people making changes in how they live to really effect change and that if everyone waits for others to do it then it will never happen.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
38. Oh okay, that makes sense. I actually agree with that 100%.
Tue Nov 6, 2012, 12:38 AM
Nov 2012

Change starts with YOU, not "I saw it on TV" or "Michael Phelps does it" or whatever. In other words, if her argument is that the social change you want to see happen can be precipitated with your help, even if you are the first one, then it's a good argument.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
30. This is an extreme, but I can't argue with living green and frugally. I just wonder what's costing
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 08:54 PM
Nov 2012

them $45,000? They should be spending less. Maybe it's health care.

fishwax

(29,149 posts)
31. her four tenets sound pretty solid: ecological sustainability, social justice, family, and community
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 08:55 PM
Nov 2012

I don't see a Randian undercurrent there, personally

REP

(21,691 posts)
33. Well, burning wood is pretty polluting but it is about helping all of us
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 08:58 PM
Nov 2012

By not "waiting for someone else to take care of things," she means cutting back on emissions, mostly by car and electric use. We have the same outlook; while we don't claim to be part of a movement, we are trying lessen what we do the environment: our house is largely solar; any non-solar electric is high-efficiency (LEDs, etc); we don't drive much (I've put just over 16,000 miles on my car in 5 years, and that includes a couple long trips); we don't have children; we recycle everything, etc. If more people who can make more of these choices (not everyone can afford to put in a solar heating/cooling system, but many can afford LED or CFL lightbulbs, for example), it does start to add up for everyone.

Of course, the most important changes need to come from manufacturing, power companies, etc; those will have the biggest effect but the small things we all can do will help us all.

Tree-Hugger

(3,370 posts)
35. I am not familiar with her, but...
Mon Nov 5, 2012, 09:22 PM
Nov 2012

...that could totally be me. Once we have a real house and not this crappy fucking apartment, that will certainly be me.

Yes, there are some of those radical homesteaders, homeschoolers and off-the-grid folks who live that lifestyle because they dearly want to shelter themselves and their children from the outside world. They believe being worldly is sinful and evil and no good will come of it. They believe the big bad gubment wants to control them and take everything away from them, so othey live as off the grid and off the radar as possible. So, yes, there are severely conservative and some Randian people who live like this for sure.

However, there are a hell of a lot of filthy liberal hippies who are like this. Many of us live this way because we believe it is way better to protect our planet and our children. We are not mass consumers, not because we don't want our country to prosper, but because we believe over consumption has done a lot to harm the planet's health and our health. I mean, 40 years ago, self storage places didn't exist. Now, there are over a billion locations where you can store all of your extra crap. It's done with the whole world in mind - we don't buy every new plastic and sparkly gadget because we don't want to contribute to the horrid conditions in factories overseas where Romney sends jobs. We believe that we need to move back to making things in America. We believe in investing in our local communities - that means avoiding all the big box stores if possible and shopping at local businesses, buying food from local farmers and planting our own gardens and/or raising our own livestock, bees, what have you. Many of us cook from scratch because it's way, way cheaper and much healthier. I mean, it costs me about $0.50 cents to make a loaf of bread - and that's organic and non-GMO. It has 4 ingredients, as opposed to the 15 ingredients in the so-called natural bread I used to buy. I don't buy many prepackaged things because food today is over-processed and full of crap that's not beneficial and all that packaging can't be good for the planet. I do my best to cook everything from scratch and it's saved our family a lot of money. It's a lost art. There is a certain amount of pride that comes with it. I'm learning to sew, knit and crochet because I think it's awesome to be able to make your own clothes, blankets and toys. We're definitely not the type to say, "Every many for himself." When you live this way, you form many relationships with local businesses and farmer. When you barter and trade, you HAVE to have good relationships. This is actually a way to become very strongly involved in your community. A lot of folks I know like this are more than willing to help out a neighbor or their community if need be. They are definitely the type who believe that we are ALL in this together and that we must take care of one another. We're trying to live a more sustainable life because it's healthier for this planet and it's healthier for our children. Like I said, we live in an apartment, but I'm trying my best. Once we get into a house in the next few years, I will have gardens and I will preserve what I grow...and give some away.

As for homeschooling - as I said, there are definitely people who homeschool in order to shelter their children from all the evil in this world, like gays and Obama. I know some people like that. However, there are a lot of homeschoolers who are just the opposite and who don't do it for religious reasons. Homeschooling gets a bad rap primarily because of the religious cults that use it, but it's not social isolation for the kids and they do, in fact, turn out to be very normal, very smart and very productive members of society.

This lady doesn't sound like an Ayn Rand disciple or like anyone who would think we all need to be on our own. I noticed that the article said she has a doctorate in community organizing. She's probably one of us.

DeschutesRiver

(2,354 posts)
43. Not Ayn-Rand, message is okay if you can accept that she is a bit of a fake in how she gets there
Tue Nov 6, 2012, 02:14 PM
Nov 2012

First, she probably makes a chunk of change not only on her multiple books, but also her sales online at her website and at farmer's markets. She makes some things. She sells organic meat at the market; however, that operation is run on her family's land, with their capital. This couple just bought a cabin on 15 acres next door to the family farm, and in one interview she mentioned that 3 generations of her family are working on that farm, and having land and a ready made farm in the family and a support system is a headstart not available to most people. Doesn't mean it can't be done, though and onlines sales/books can certainly even out the income of a farming/livestock operation, which on a small scale is very weather, market and disease/predation dependent.

Been reading her blog, which is at times disturbing - she mentions how when they were getting started, people thought they were "poor" and so start giving them tons of clothes. And started that entry by saying "it was funny, in a sad sort of way...". That sounded to me like someone playing a game - okay, so now we are going to pretend that we are really poor, like everyone else~!!" Anyway, she said they just boxed them up and stored them to use as a storehouse of clothing, but turns out they never used them so gave them away. She also doesn't understand the value of a dollar, as one account described how she tore up a bunch of Carharts to use to help with a plumbing problem (I don't care if you got them at a thrift store, or were given them, Carharts aren't the kind of cheap goods you'd just tear up to use for such a thing). I also thought her need to mention the destruction of a quality good that most local rural people know and use by its brand name was odd as well.

She also mentioned they'd recently gone to a few thrift stores & found some "gorgeous" wool coats and blankets that they intended to cut into pieces to use to make a nifty braided rug. Thankfully, they decided instead to redonate them to victims of Sandy once that hit the news. Probably just me, but the thought of cutting up a gorgeous wool coat, in an area of bitter winters, so you can make a nifty rug makes me sick. If it was stained or otherwise threadbare in places, well, sure, make use of the good parts that are left. But these were not described that way.

Anyway, if you google her various interviews and find her blog, or her articles in Yes magazine, it makes for thoughtful reading, IF you just accept the fact that she likely got a considerable headstart from the existing family operations. I feel that this kind of lifestyle is a hobby for her, and that she has a safety net below her, should it not work out. And with that in mind, some of her ability to do certain things wouldn't be possible for others with less means. That said, she is living an interesting life, and I think it is probably a ton of fun to be her children - with all the arts, crafts, projects, learning of authentic skills and animal husbandry, it must feel like a field trip every day. Given the education levels in her family, I assume that she is probably quite capable of rounding out the basics for her kids as well as teacher might, so I doubt they will be misfits. She even talks of when she should discuss topics like bullying, and climate change with her kids. Now, we have "home schoolers" in my rural location, but some are right wing idiots who can't teach a dog a trick, more less teach their kids anything. Those kids are destined to be losers - they are in desperate need of a good public education, but with those parents in charge, they will just rot mentally.

I live a lifestyle now that includes doing many of the same things that Shannon does, but I am retired and also not doing some of these things for the first time, either. Some seem so ordinary to me that it is an eye opener that others find it radically unusual. I raise my own beef too, cook on the woodstove, preserve foods, learn new skills, blah blah, but I don't live exclusively that way. And that is my only issue with her, ie her need to pretend that she is doing this all on her own and is living off the grid in all respects. That much, from what I've read, is simply not true. But some of her advice is really useful, and if she wants to be semi-authentic, like I am, well, more power to her.

Thanks for bringing this up - I am finding some interesting tidbits in her works, and always enjoy seeing other peoples interpretaion of living this way. It is always kind of funny to read people's accounts when they think they are the first to discover a certain lifestyle, esp. from the perspective of someone who has been living in a somewhat similar fashion for years.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
44. YW. :-)
Tue Nov 6, 2012, 03:05 PM
Nov 2012

It's true - young people always seem to think they were first - they discovered sex, they discovered great music, they discovered how to make a profit, etc.

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