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leftyladyfrommo

(18,868 posts)
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 07:57 PM Nov 2012

I think there must be two Americas

Two completely different places that occupy the same space at the same time.

The first one is represented by people who read and post on DU.

The second are represented by the Drudge report.

They are completely different. Drudge reports every awful thing that has happened in this country each day - to make our current state of government look just as horrible as it can.

I eat breakfast at HYVEE grocery here in KC every morning. The exact same thing is true there. The people that come to eat are polar opposites from each other. The more liberal people are pretty positive people. The "Bible Boys" (Bible Believing Baptists for the most part)all get together and scare each other to death with the horribleness of it all. We are looking at a thousand years of gloom and doom. And Obama is the Antichrist. We are all doomed - Doomed, I tell you.

It is really an amazing thing to listen to.

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I think there must be two Americas (Original Post) leftyladyfrommo Nov 2012 OP
I live in a red state and know exactly where you are coming from. Whovian Nov 2012 #1
We're divided along two axes: Marr Nov 2012 #2
Yea but these people aren't really morons. leftyladyfrommo Nov 2012 #3
I have yet to meet a religious zealot who was not a moron. Marr Nov 2012 #4
I don't think Mormons are religious zealots. leftyladyfrommo Nov 2012 #5
religion is "faith", no thought needed. PowerToThePeople Nov 2012 #8
We've long been two Americas mrsadm Nov 2012 #6
Red vs. Blue kurt_cagle Nov 2012 #7
Very interesting read. Victor_c3 Nov 2012 #15
Re: The Mormons kurt_cagle Nov 2012 #9
neither side wants to believe there is are those between the two sides... yawnmaster Nov 2012 #10
That ws interesting leftyladyfrommo Nov 2012 #11
I know there are two vastly different America's coldwaterintheface Nov 2012 #12
the mirror image is the posters here who scare us with the apocalypse of a romney admin. HiPointDem Nov 2012 #13
... Fumesucker Nov 2012 #14
 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
2. We're divided along two axes:
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 08:05 PM
Nov 2012

Wealthy/ Not Wealthy

and

Morons/Not Morons

The Wealthy don't count for much in actual votes, but they find it exceedingly easy to manipulate the Morons.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,868 posts)
3. Yea but these people aren't really morons.
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 08:12 PM
Nov 2012

I can't explain it really. I think they are a product of this wierd religious shit they all believe in. They have had it drummed into them since they were born.

The religion part seems to be in one box. And then they have another side that goes to work and does stuff. And the two are really separate.

I saw the same thing when I lived in Salt lake City. One of the best anthropology professors in the world was like that. He was Mormon. His whole family was Mormon. And he put the Mormon stuff in one box. And then he taught anthropology from another box. Lots of Mormons are like that. They have their religion and they do not question it. It is all they have heard since they were old enough to be aware of church. But they function really well in other fields.

It is just the wierdest thing.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
4. I have yet to meet a religious zealot who was not a moron.
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 08:15 PM
Nov 2012

Apparently our experiences have differed.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,868 posts)
5. I don't think Mormons are religious zealots.
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 08:22 PM
Nov 2012

I can't explain how they are. They live in a society that is 90% Mormon. All of their social life is inside the church. Those churches even have basketball courts in them. They spend all day Sunday going to church. All kinds of other social groups that they are involved in meet in the evenings or during the weekdays. They don't question because they really don't realize there is anything to question.

Now the Baptist have zealots. They love to get on their soapboxes and listen to themselves pontificate.

Its really a very different phenomenon.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
8. religion is "faith", no thought needed.
Sat Nov 3, 2012, 12:07 AM
Nov 2012

it is easy to take advantage of in parts of their lives that require thought.

kurt_cagle

(534 posts)
7. Red vs. Blue
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 11:25 PM
Nov 2012

Red America is a mixture of Deep South slave gentry (mostly from Southern England) who originally settled the area after coming north from the plantations of the West Indies along with Scots/Irish that settled throughout the Appalachians and from there spread up the Mississippi and Missouri River deltas. They had an uneasy alliance, and the Appalachian settlers generally tended to oppose anyone who was in authority. The Libertarian strain of conservatism mostly derives from the Appalachian settlers, while the Deep Southerners tended to be Aristocratic Monarchists. The other strain of conservatives came from the Dutch settlers of New Amsterdam, later New York (when the British effectively captured the city), who were generally socially liberal but fiscally conservative.

Blue America comes from the Yankees - Massachusetts Calvinists, Puritans and Pilgrims, Pennsylvania Quakers and Dutch Amish, German Lutherans. The Tidewater regions of the East Coast tended to be Gentry, with plantations but also with an early history of indentured servitude instead of slavery. Slavery did become institutionalized in both by the mid 18th century, and Maryland was actually a slave state that sided with the Union, holding an internal referendum in 1864 to abolish slavery. West Virginia separated as a free state (the Appalachian regions generally were more sympathetic to slaves) just before the Civil War. Even after the Civil War, Northern Virginia was much more like Tidewater Maryland, generally being more liberal, while downstate and inland Virginia was more like the Southern plantation states. The German Lutherans occupied most of the Northern Midwest, there was a streak of Quakerism that ran through the central part, and then you had the Appalachians run through the south (which is reason that both Illinois and Pennsylvania tend to have three distinct geoethnicities.

On the Pacific West Coast, you had a mixture of Lutheran Swedes and Norse, Yankees from Boston, Northern English and Scottish settlers of a later set of generations, as well as an admixture of Chinese and Japanese brought to work the railroads. Further south (in SoCal) the mix was more heavily influenced by the remnants of the Spanish Empire, Appalachian miners in the Gold Rush, and New York financiers looking to establish a West Coast base, with San Francisco being the dominant city until World War II, at which point a combination of the Naval bases, Hollywood and the ports in Los Angeles and San Diego brought in a lot of GIs and their families (with many of those GIs for the most part representing the Appalachian warrior clans). It's one reason why NorCal, Oregon and Washington are more liberal than SoCal, though as immigration from Mexico and MesoAmerica continues, that's changing as well. It's also one reason why the Coastal regions in these states are generally far more progressive than the drier, higher inland regions.

Texas is the other oddball. Texas itself was one of the few regions in North America to be a fully declared country for nearly a decade before being annexed by the United States in 1845 (Vermont and Hawaii are the other two). It was not a strong slave state simply because Texas was ill-suited for the agrarian slave economy of Georgia or Alabama, but it was considered a slave state, and after the Civil War, many of the aristocrats of the Old South fled there to settle in the East Texas region. When the value of crude oil as a fuel source became evident, many of these same people became wealthy through the oil deposits on their lands. While parts of the state are beginning to trend blue (primarily in the Houston/Galveston region) on the strength of immigration and coastal urbanization, some parts of the state will likely always remain deep Red.

Most of the Blue regions in this country are now coastal. While not always the case, even in "Red" states there's usually a border of bluish purple near the coasts, and inland rivers and lakes (including the five inland Seas of the Great Lakes) tend to be bluer than surrounding areas. It's an interesting question of whether political values are shaped by urbanization, which tends to cluster around waterways, or whether blues tend to be drawn to the coastal regions and settle into urban communities. However, the correlation is very strong. My suspicion is that it's probably a mix of the two - agrarian farming communities form in areas where there is large expanses of tillable land or at least grazing areas, and such communities typically tend to be more conservative and slower changing, while at the same time you get more cultural mixing along the coasts, and people migrate there to be a part of that more dynamic, malleable world.

At least that would be my guess.

kurt_cagle

(534 posts)
9. Re: The Mormons
Sat Nov 3, 2012, 12:14 AM
Nov 2012

Mormons are an odd mix as well. They formed as a religious community in upstate New York in the 1820s (a period that was notable for the rise of evangelism in the United States in general), ran afoul of the local communities and fled to both Missouri and Ohio before finally settling in Nauvoo, Illinois (the governor of Missouri issued an Extermination Order against all Mormons in Missouri). They lived there for a decade before the locals became disgusted with their behavior and attacked the encampment, killing Joseph Smith in the process. Most of the community then moved to Utah, though the practices of polygamy was eventually ended by the mainstream Mormon church in 1890 (prompting many fundamentalist Mormons, including the ancestors of Romney) to move to Mexico.

Consequently, while they started out as a fairly typical Yankee institution, they really fall outside the Red/Blue dichotomy. Mormons have strong social cohesion, but it's primarily between Mormons. They were early abolitionists, but there is a form of religious apartheid within the religion itself that is particularly strong among its more fundamentalist members. The role of polygamy in Mormonism is strong, even though it was eventually abandoned by the LDS church, because it provided a way of increasing the number of Mormons by birth rather than conversion (this is actually characteristic of many young religions - being a descendent of a founder or disciple always carries with it more clout than being a recruit from the outside, and there are definite dynastic characteristics of Mormonism that are no longer true of more mature religions.

If the US were ever to splinter into regions, I see the Mormon portions of Utah closing its borders and becoming an isolationist country, a Mormon Mecca.

yawnmaster

(2,812 posts)
10. neither side wants to believe there is are those between the two sides...
Sat Nov 3, 2012, 12:26 AM
Nov 2012

and it is in their interest to divide.
I think there is one America that spans from one side to the other.
Those at the sides have a high focus on their ideals their sides and on what it takes to add influence to their side.
A huge amounts of Americans know nothing of either DU or Drudge.

I too do worry about the polarization of this country.
I don't want to be alienated from up to half the population.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,868 posts)
11. That ws interesting
Sat Nov 3, 2012, 07:12 AM
Nov 2012

I had not really thought about the divide from a historical viewpoint.

I would add re: Mormonism that religion doesn't seem to be the primary their focus. It's like the religion part of the religion is somewhere down at the bottom of their important views on stuff. The social structure is at the top. I can't remember any Mormons actually having religious discussions. It was all social. No arguments about the existence of God or anything like that.

A Mormon Sunday service isn't very religious. It's more like a town hall meeting that the Bishop presides over. There aren't any symbolic crosses or anything like that in the buildings. It's all very plain. Parents were reading books to their kids. Kids were running up and down the isles. A new family in the Waard put on demonstration of their musical abilities. A little girl got up and taled about spirits up in heaven that were waiting to be born into human bodies. Business was discussed.

People come to the service more to socialize. It seemed very odd to me because I was raised Methodist where there is actually a religious service on Sunday.

People were always nice to me but I was not included in anything. I was always an outsider.

 

coldwaterintheface

(137 posts)
12. I know there are two vastly different America's
Sat Nov 3, 2012, 07:26 AM
Nov 2012

and it is past time we went our seperate ways otherwise history will repeat itself in America.


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