Sandy: No power means no voting machines. No machines means paper ballots shipped in.

[DonRedwood]

Last edited Sun Oct 28, 2012, 04:41 PM - Edit history (1)

Paper ballots means paper trail.

I love paper trails.

Remember: many of the polling places have early voting and are open as of MONDAY.

Edited to add: It seems some people think I am "ridiculous" "stupid" and overall "Duh!" for thinking people might have to use paper ballots. So, I did some reading:
NEW YORK ELECTION LAW: requires a paper trail--usually printed out by the machine. Law requires the machines have a battery that holds at least a TWO HOUR CHARGE. The machines automatically shut down when the battery gets down to a certain level-this is to save the ballots already cast.
VIRGINIA ELECTION LAW: requires a paper ballot, copied on a copy machine if need be, in the event that the voting machines run out of juice.
CONNECTICUT SECRETARY OF STATE ANNOUNCED: Connecticut will use paper ballots if there is a failure in the electrical grid.

Power was out in parts of New Jersey for 11+ days after Hurricane Irene. Irene did not clash into a winter storm coming down from Canada though so there was no winter weather thrown into that mix. Voting is open now in some areas. Many polling places are scheduled to be open the day before and the morning after Hurricane Sandy hits. There is a very good possibility that some people will not have power when they go to vote.

[Jackpine Radical]

1. So when rMoney loses

because he can't jigger the East Coast machines, will he blame Obama or God? And if God, which one? I understand the Mormons have several.

Personally, I think it's Thor doing this. He always WAS a god for the 99%.

[justiceischeap]

2. How can they ship in ballots that have prop issues?

I like the idea very much but how do they get these out quickly and accurately.

[LisaL]

3. People still have to get to the polls to fill out these ballots.

[DURHAM D]

4. You think they have printed paper ballots? Really?

[SoCalDem]

8. Not necessary..

5 x 7 blank index cards

3 lines.....write in your choice


president..............................

senate.................................... (if that state has one running)

house......................................

easy to tally , easy to collect & even easy to recount if necessary


Whatever state it happens to be could run THEIR election & ballots at any time.. Just that no one will vote those 3 (or 2) races on it when they DO vote..

a sharpie pen and a blank card is all we need..

It would take minimal electricity and minimal time..and they could all vote for the races most care about..

The rest of the local & state issues could wait a few weeks..

[DonRedwood]

10. thanks! I was feeling like people thought I was a nut

But they will have to do something. You don't just get to cancel things.

[DonRedwood]

9. no...but they may have to make them.

whole swathes of the east coast--without power--would not get to vote otherwise.

There must be rules about this--and I believe paper ballots are usually used when the machines go down. Just because the machine doesn't work doesn't mean an election official gets to say, "you don't get to vote this year."

[DURHAM D]

14. In my county there are 28 different ballot configurations.

[rainbow4321]

5. Which kinda makes me wonder...have officials STOCKED UP on them?

Having images of voting sites saying that they "ran out" of paper ballots on Election Day. Given that it is less than 2 weeks til Election Day, what are the odds of more being printed and shipped in time?

[librechik]

6. So now we have a cage match battle: when God decides what happens in the next week

Last edited Sun Oct 28, 2012, 03:18 PM - Edit history (1)

will he choose the Dems or the Repubs?

I dunno about you guys (I voted already.)

I'm going to start praying.

And I'm atheist.

[DonRedwood]

23. Don't leave out Mother Nature

She might just kick everyone's ass.

[librechik]

46. you betcha!

it's going to sting.

[brooklynite]

7. NYS already has paper ballots

[DonRedwood]

11. For everybody? (just curious)

[NYC Liberal]

63. Yes, with optical scanners.

[DonRedwood]

67. cool. so they just read the paper ballot?

or do they print out the paper ballot.

[NYC Liberal]

68. You bubble in the paper ballot with a pencil and then stick it under the scanner

and it confirms your vote. So I don't see why the same ballots couldn't just be used and manually counted if necessary.

[ashling]

12. Or consolidate voting places and ship generators to those few

just sayin

[DonRedwood]

16. very true but they'll have a week to work on transportation before voting.

Cities often have underground power so those might be up and running first. The outlying areas might get their power last.

It is a big mess but anything that forces more paperballots the better.

I keep thinking of that woman in WI who is an election official. Her numbers are always late and funky. What would she do if she was forced to only have paper ballots that could be recounted.

[ashling]

41. The media pushes speed over accuracy

[spanone]

13. no power may also mean many folks can't get to the polls....

[DURHAM D]

17. It also means no power to run printers for paper ballots.

[DonRedwood]

19. index card and a pen.

simple as that.

[DURHAM D]

20. I am curious.

Have you ever voted? Ballots are long - two to three pages. Some in Florida are 8 pages. That will not work.

[DonRedwood]

24. YES, I have voted. Thanks for putting me down, dude. Have you thought of paring down the ballot

since it is an emergency?

President, Congress, Senate.

Ballot measures can wait. The whole country isn't waiting for those numbers and they can be voted on in a week or a month.

So maybe someone will think of that and say, HEY! we could just do the voting that MUST be done on Nov. 7. See, I HAVE voted and I know that not everything is a time-mandated federal election.

[DURHAM D]

26. These things are controlled locally not federally.

It won't happen.

[DonRedwood]

25. People voted before the machines were invented.... just to point that out too

So we're not re-inventing the wheel. Just stepping back a few years. Like when your DVD player doesn't work so you put in a VHS tape.

They still work... like a paper ballot, they still work even though many areas don't use them. Many places do. We have a paper ballot here that we mark, they just count them with the machines.

[DURHAM D]

27. It took months to prepare those paper ballots.

The population of my county is 270K. There are 11 towns in the county. As I mentioned up thread - there are 28 different ballots in this one town alone.

Your idea won't work.

[DonRedwood]

64. Virginia law says paper ballots must be used if the machines don't have power

C. If (i) the inoperative device cannot be repaired in time to continue using it at
the election, (ii) a substitute device is needed to conduct the election but is not
available for use, (iii) the supply of official paper ballots, or other official ballots
that can be cast without use of the inoperative device, is not adequate, and (iv) the
local electoral board approves, an officer of election may have copies of the
official paper ballot reprinted or reproduced by photographic, electronic, or
mechanical processes for use at the election.

[rainbow4321]

30. To *use* them, they have to be in stock, on site

If there are NONE at the polling site, or a short supply, voters won't be able to do anything...

Let's hope local officials at the very least have generators at the ready for the polling sites so they can get the machines up and running.

Everything may run smoothly and there may be NO electricity problems...but why take the chance? Who wants to be the local official on national TV explaining why his/her local voters have been disenfranchised because the local officials didn't have a back up plan?

[DURHAM D]

37. They also need internet connection back to the county election board.

I assume this is usually via phone lines.

[DonRedwood]

66. VA law says copy machine copies are OK...

Who knows how they will deal with it....I just hope they are madly copying ballots just in case.

[upi402]

15. Paper ballotts - hand counting

We HAVE the technology!!!
lol

[rainbow4321]

18. TWC had Christie press conf and there was a question about how this will effect voting

As soon as he said that he had talked to states' SOS about voting "contigency plans" TWC cut to a commerical. Way to go, TWC..smh.

[Jennicut]

21. SOS in CT said we will do that if we have to.

“No matter what happens, we will proceed with the election. If polling places need to be moved or consolidated there are legal ways to do that and we will be in constant touch with local election officials to coordinate that,” Av Harris, a spokesman for the Connecticut Secretary of the State, said in an email.

Harris said that in Connecticut, the office has good coordination with the local power company.

“Worst case scenario if there is no power and power cannot be restored, the optical scan machines can run on battery power or else under a truly worst case scenario where the battery power for the optical scanners was depleted, we could have voters fill out paper ballots, drop them in the secure boxes, and election officials can count them all by hand,” Harris said. “Not an ideal situation by far, but we can do it if we need to.”

http://atr.rollcall.com/the-sandy-effect-on-the-election/

[LeftyMom]

34. The optical scan machines we use here have a secure drop box area.

We can use it if the power goes out, the machine is malfunctioning, or (as happened at a polling place I worked at) the ballots are cut too wide to scan.

We'd still need light to run a safe polling place, but a lack of power to the scanner itself would not pose a significant problem.

[Coyotl]

22. HELLO = NINE DAYS to go!!

Geeeezzz

[DonRedwood]

28. Not sure what you mean?

The storm is over 500 miles across and dumping over a foot of rain in places. There is a chance for up to 2 feet of snow in places. It is supposed to hit Halloween. That leaves seven days to get the power back up across a gigantic swath of the east coast...perhaps as far inward as Ohio. A week isn't much time to get everything up and running after something like that.

[BlueMan Votes]

31. EXACTLY!!

no matter how big and bad Sandy may get- they'll have plenty of time to get the power back on by Nov.6.

[rainbow4321]

32. Ahem...there were parts of NJ that went TEN days with no electricity with Irene

While the MSM may only cover the post storm damage for a couple days post storm, some problems last waayyyy past that.

[DonRedwood]

47. THANK YOU! With early voting many polls are open for voting on MONDAY...not nine days from now.

[DonRedwood]

57. I just read that the NY Election laws require a two hour battery in their machines.

That won't last long.

[LeftyMom]

29. You've never worked as a polling place worker, have you?

First of all, shifting systems at the last minute would mean unprepared poll workers (as they'd have been trained to do something else.) That's a recipe for chaos and very long lines.

Second, nobody's going to run polling places with no power if they can help it. Nobody can fill out ballots in the dark, and the liability risk of somebody tripping and hurting themselves is unacceptably high. Even if the jurisdiction was willing to allow it, the property owners who rent their spaces out for use as polling places (the churches, community centers, etc) would not.

Third, nobody's going to do improvised ballots on index cards or anything else. Why? Because there's nothing to stop somebody from walking in with a pocket full of index cards and voting 500 times.

[DonRedwood]

33. So just cancel? No voting if your power is out?

[LeftyMom]

36. In an emergency we put corn nuts in a barrel. Original for Obama, Ranch for Romney. Duh.

[DURHAM D]

40. LOL

I guess I should not be amazed that some don't seem to have any concept of how complicated our voting system actually is and how much it varies from state to state, county to county, town to town and polling place to polling place, not to mention states with a populations of 1M people vs. states with 19M people.

[DonRedwood]

49. The Secretary of State says paper ballots if power fails-- I'll take her info over yours, thanks.

And I guess I shouldn't be amazed that some people are so caught up in modern technology that they don't think a pen on paper is a viable way of voting.


“No matter what happens, we will proceed with the election. If polling places need to be moved or consolidated there are legal ways to do that and we will be in constant touch with local election officials to coordinate that,” Av Harris, a spokesman for the Connecticut Secretary of the State, said in an email.

Harris said that in Connecticut, the office has good coordination with the local power company.

“Worst case scenario if there is no power and power cannot be restored, the optical scan machines can run on battery power or else under a truly worst case scenario where the battery power for the optical scanners was depleted, we could have voters fill out paper ballots, drop them in the secure boxes, and election officials can count them all by hand,” Harris said. “Not an ideal situation by far, but we can do it if we need to.”

http://atr.rollcall.com/the-sandy-effect-on-the-election/

[DonRedwood]

42. The polls are open Monday through election day in many of these areas. Seriously. What do they do?

If there is not electricity--what do they do?

If the optical scanners can't work, what do they do?

If the ballots are damaged by weather, what do they do?

I'm not saying I know what they will do, we are discussing the different plans and rules.

If you have the answer, tell us but I don't know why you are mocking me for bringing up the topic.

[rainbow4321]

45. +10000

Exactly...better to have Plans B, C, and D in place than to see upset, angry, sad would-be voters in loooonnnnng lines on Election Day. If Plan A (electricity up and running, machines doing fine, etc..) goes off without a hitch, great, wonderful! But why not err on the side of caution and have back up plans?

[LeftyMom]

48. I have no problem with bringing up the topic. But your 'solutions' are riciculous, and you're not

listening to and learning from people who know more than you about running an election. That suggests to me that you're trying to whip people up into a panic for some reason.

[DonRedwood]

50. CT Secretary of State: "we could have voters fill out paper ballots" What is your problem??

I will quote her since you think I am ridiculous. And knock off the personal attacks. Why is it ridiculous that polling places, which legallly have to be open the morning after Sandy hits in all these early voting areas, might mean paper ballots if the power goes out?

Secretary of State of Connecticut making plans in case the power goes out:

“No matter what happens, we will proceed with the election. If polling places need to be moved or consolidated there are legal ways to do that and we will be in constant touch with local election officials to coordinate that,” Av Harris, a spokesman for the Connecticut Secretary of the State, said in an email.

Harris said that in Connecticut, the office has good coordination with the local power company.

“Worst case scenario if there is no power and power cannot be restored, the optical scan machines can run on battery power or else under a truly worst case scenario where the battery power for the optical scanners was depleted, we could have voters fill out paper ballots, drop them in the secure boxes, and election officials can count them all by hand,” Harris said. “Not an ideal situation by far, but we can do it if we need to.”

http://atr.rollcall.com/the-sandy-effect-on-the-election/

[DonRedwood]

62. Vrginia election law also requires paper ballots if the machines don't have power. quote below

C. If (i) the inoperative device cannot be repaired in time to continue using it at
the election, (ii) a substitute device is needed to conduct the election but is not
available for use, (iii) the supply of official paper ballots, or other official ballots
that can be cast without use of the inoperative device, is not adequate, and (iv) the
local electoral board approves, an officer of election may have copies of the
official paper ballot reprinted or reproduced by photographic, electronic, or
mechanical processes for use at the election.

[DURHAM D]

51. This

I also think he is from a lightly populated state in the middle of the country.

[DonRedwood]

52. Right back atcha

[DonRedwood]

59. In VIrginia the law says you must use paper ballots if the machines go down. You are wrong.

WHEREAS, the Code of Virginia, § 24.2-642 states, in part:
C. If (i) the inoperative device cannot be repaired in time to continue using it at
the election, (ii) a substitute device is needed to conduct the election but is not
available for use, (iii) the supply of official paper ballots, or other official ballots
that can be cast without use of the inoperative device, is not adequate, and (iv) the
local electoral board approves, an officer of election may have copies of the
official paper ballot reprinted or reproduced by photographic, electronic, or
mechanical processes for use at the election.

http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/Files/ElectionAdministration/BoardPolicies/SBE_Policy-2008-004_-_Definition_of_Inoperable_Equipment.pdf

[stillcool]

38. unprepared poll workers?

what's to prepare? When I go in, I get a ballot. I fill it out, and put it in the machine. So..I won't put it in the machine..I'll hand it to the person that sits there and watches me putting it in the machine.
As far as in the dark goes, they have these things called generators..and all kinds of emergency equipment. It's not rocket science.

[Zalatix]

35. If Deb Fischer said that then she should just AUTOMATICALLY fucking win this.

Oh and... I hate to root for hurricane Sandy, but..............

[morningfog]

39. I don't think power outages will be so widespread and so severe that

power won't be restored to most, if not all, polling places in over a week's time. I hope I am right, for people's sake.

[DonRedwood]

44. Many areas have early voting and are open on MONDAY through election day.

[morningfog]

53. This won't have any significant impact on the outcome of the election.

The only states with early voting that are considered a battleground state is VA and NC. Neither of those states are expected to take the brunt of this storm. The other states in the path of Sandy either don't have early voting or are solidly blue, or both.

[obamanut2012]

56. VA doesn't have actual early voting

Only certain people can early vote. However, we in NC have been early voting for ten days, and the only voting areas that will be closed will be the OBX area. Friends who live there said they all went and voted already "just in case." That is the only area that will really get it, and it's happening now. I voted the very first day of early voting here.

It sounds like the states that will be hit the hardest will be blue states, and TWC just said power folks from many states are on standby to come East and help restore power for the election, if need be.

[DonRedwood]

61. No, but they have a law that requires paper ballots if the machines run out of batteries

http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/Files/ElectionAdministration/BoardPolicies/SBE_Policy-2008-004_-_Definition_of_Inoperable_Equipment.pdf

C. If (i) the inoperative device cannot be repaired in time to continue using it at
the election, (ii) a substitute device is needed to conduct the election but is not
available for use, (iii) the supply of official paper ballots, or other official ballots
that can be cast without use of the inoperative device, is not adequate, and (iv) the
local electoral board approves, an officer of election may have copies of the
official paper ballot reprinted or reproduced by photographic, electronic, or
mechanical processes for use at the election.

[randome]

43. What makes you think people are more trusthworthy than computers?

It's easy to 'misplace' ballots. Maybe computers aren't foolproof but I don't see that hand-counting is, either.

[Savannahmann]

54. Here is what will really happen.

The machines have batteries, and they'll use the batteries. They'll charge them up from generators if they have to. The Machines aren't going away, unless we legislate them away. This fantasy of index cards is wishful thinking. Do you really think the right wingers are so inept that they would overlook something like this? They'll use automobile batteries to keep the machines in play.

[Igel]

55. The solution is simple.

Not simplistic.

They will consolidate polling places. That means instead of 20 there may be 5. They'd have to get the word out, and if there's no power that might be a problem.

This might be a bit nasty, but this would conserve batteries for the functioning voting machines and allow them to re-train the minimum number of poll workers needed. If power's out, you just don't want to be in some polling places.

There are paper ballots, but probably not enough for everybody in every jurisdiction. Acts of God are typical "outs" for some laws. If a tornado is about to hit a polling center, all the attorneys general and laws in the country don't matter--you close the polls even if the naive reading of the law says "it shall be open from the hours of ___ to ___." Same for this kind of thing.

Simplistic is saying that only the elections that matter to DU matter and we can just improvise because our wants are so important. What's on the ballots are set by law at this point. The form and layout of the ballots are set by the BOE in most jurisdictions and approved by some voting commissioner or SoS.

[dionysus]

58. pretty sure they'll have these things called generators..

[obamanut2012]

60. Ballots are set by law -- you cannot change what's on a ballot

Or the layout of a ballot. Even because of an "Act of God." You can't just write a few things on an index card and think that is a legal ballot, because it won't be, and it shouldn't be. Ballots should not be allowed to be changed by ANYONE. This isn't 1850 or something. I am sure a few states may allow this, but I would bet it is very, very few, if any.

The states hardest hit will be blue states, and most of them don't have early voting, not true early voting. The only state that is still a big battleground state where that will matter is here in NC, where we have been early voting for about ten days, and only the OBX area is closing polling places.

Polling places will be consolidated and machines run on batteries, and I bet people are working OT to get as mainly paper ballots ready as possible -- ballots that are legal ballots. If need be, they will also be used. Worst case scenario.

[0rganism]

65. more likely: no power -> no voting machines -> "you can't vote here today"

i just don't see local elections boards suddenly taking the responsibility of hand-counting thousands of last-minute paper ballots. If we're lucky, they'll let voters cast provisional ballots, but standards will vary so much across an affected state that court challenges will be inevitable.

Nov. 7 is going to be a big fucking mess, no doubt about it.

[Jersey Devil]

69. Urban areas will have power restored first

Utility companies are sensitive to public opinion and when there are power outages they concentrate first on restoring power to larger urban areas where they can get the biggest bang for their buck in terms of restoring the most people, which means more Dems will have power back first. Yes, power was out for 11 days last time, but that was in rural cow country in NJ. Urban areas had power back in 3-4 days.