Bought a new PC today and would like tell all that Windows 8 is utterly fucked.

[Itchinjim]

If I wanted to completely relearn how to use a computer I would have built a time machine and gone back to 1983. This OS system is the most user unfriendly, non-navigational, non-intuitive pile of shit I've ever used-and that includes SAP. I'm going to freaking bed.

[Nye Bevan]

1. The first thing I do when I buy any Windows system is to figure out how to get to Windows Classic

mode. So my desktop does not look very different from the Windows 98 days; I have never used Aero etc. Is this not possible with Windows 8?

[RomneyLies]

11. No can do with Win 8

It always boots up with the new Windows cell phone interface.

[LiberalAndProud]

42. You might find this article helpful.

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/quickly-easily-disable-metro-user-interface-windows-8/

Or, you can install Windows 7, which is probably what I would do.

[RomneyLies]

50. Did that with the Beta

They disabled the ability to do that with the RTM, so no can do with Win8.

[pstokely]

96. What if the computer came with Windows 8?

Can you even still get Windows 7 pre-installed?

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

100. Actually, I just bought a computer and it cost me more to get Win7 than it would have to get 8. And

the upgrade to Win 8 is the cheapest they've ever offered.

They know they have to push this because many of us don't want our desktops to be downgraded to smart phones. The phone OS is handy for simple tasks when I'm not at home or at my computer. There's a lot of things I hope to never have to do on my phone when I've got a nice, large-screen desktop to to them on.

[janx]

193. Cell phone interface?!

Oh God.

[DisgustedTX]

12. More than possible

A small icon called DESKTOP.

Don't listen to the garbage. It's solid and takes about 10 minutes to remove the widgets- or 10 seconds to get to a familiar desktop interface.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. its easy.

http://www.stardock.com/products/

Three hours after upgrading to win8 I decided I either had to find somebody who could put back the start button, or revert back to win7. stardock works great. And actually win8, reverted to win7 mode, works great.

[IDemo]

27. The point being, why wouldn't one just stick with 7 to begin with?

Unless one is comfortable with a phone interface, what does an OS that mimics that offer a desktop user, anyway?

I've had to test hardware using the Win8 beta, and no home machine of mine will be running it.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. Oh there are quite a few reasons to move to win8.

For example, my system now boots in around 8s. Also win8 has usb-3 support, that doesn't exist in win7. There are a whole bunch of new storage and backup and cloud integration features not available elsewhere. Why MSFT threw its desktop users under the bus is a real good question, but seriously, put that stardock start button replacement back on your desktop and give it a couple of days.

[IDemo]

51. USB 3.0 drivers can be loaded from a driver DVD or downloaded in under a minute

Along with SATA3 (6 Gb/s) drivers. I've only experienced 8 on test machines at work, so they won't be affected by my personal preferences. For my home machine, there's simply no compelling reason to change over from my current multi-boot Win7/Linux Mint system.

As for rapid boot times, the new SSD will likely take care of that if and when I install it.

[blogslut]

33. I assume you're talking about the ObjectDock program?

It's nice. RocketDock is better, highly configurable and completely free:

http://rocketdock.com/

[regnaD kciN]

87. Am I missing something?

ObjectDock seems to merely put a MacOS-style dock on Win7 or Vista. I don't see any product there that allows you to restore the Win7 start button & menu to Win(H)8.

[blogslut]

94. I was mistaken

He's referring to this program:

http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/

Stardock makes nice software. I had WindBlinds for years before I discoveredI like a combination of Rainmeter and Rocketdock better.

I've never been a fan of the Windows Start Button. I'd rather just have access to my favorite programs and files. I just set my Windows Taskbar to auto-hide, add the shortcuts I want to my Rocketdock bar and slap some Rainmeter configs on the desktop. I play with the look pretty regularly. Here's my current one:

[mama]

103. Nice!

[upi402]

2. Thanks

Goes with what I've read.
Sadly.
Mac - incoming!

[PCIntern]

3. I heard from someone that there's freeware which

Allows you to return to the XP type of screen.

What I heard...not gospel.

[douglas9]

120. What’s the best Windows 8 start menu program?

Microsoft has replaced the traditional start menu in Windows 8 with the new startpage that appears when you boot into the operating system and when you press the Windows key when it is loaded. A vocal part of Windows users does not want to give up on the start menu, and as a consequence, programs have been created by various companies and individuals to add it back to the Windows 8 desktop.

With choice comes the problem of deciding which start menu replica is best for your personal workflow and situation. We have reviewed quite a few start menu programs for the Windows 8 operating system in past months, from the commercial Start8 to the free StartMenu8 and the open source Classic Shell.

Here is a list of start menu programs that you may consider for Windows 8:

http://www.ghacks.net/2012/10/09/whats-the-best-windows-8-start-menu-program/

[geckosfeet]

4. Doing a new build. Putting win7 on it.

[Dalai_1]

5. Lots of negative

Tweets regarding 8. I am sorry you have to deal with it!

[onehandle]

6. The Mac OS is basically similar to how it's been for over twenty years...

Last edited Sat Oct 27, 2012, 08:35 AM - Edit history (1)

...only much, much, better and rock solid to its NeXT/Unix core.

Structurally its system of 'Windows' has stayed very much the same since System 7.

The original OP was speaking about the interface.

[regnaD kciN]

88. Twenty years???

Maybe my memory is off (although I was developing games for the Mac around then, so I doubt it), but I'm pretty sure OS X wasn't around in 1992 -- and earlier iterations of the Mac "System" were not even close to being "basically similar" to what we have now.

[stlsaxman]

98. you're correct... Mac Classic died with OS 9 (1999). But,

it was the OS 6/7 debacle which had Mac in the same straights as Windows seems to be in in perpetuity.

One solid business practice that Apple learned from the whole thing is- it's best to "beta-test" an OS BEFORE its release. Seems MS hasn't figured that out yet. Sure- there's a first round of updates to quickly follow but these are minor issues and everyone has broadband anyways.

[onehandle]

113. Structurally its system of 'Windows' has stayed very much the same since System 7.

The original OP was speaking about the interface.

[Blecht]

97. 11 is not equal to 20

OS X became available for the desktop in 2001.

If you're going to try to hijack a Windows thread with Mac propaganda, at least try get something right.

[onehandle]

114. I updated my post.

The original OP was speaking about the interface.

[Old Codger]

7. Beta tested

Win 8, messed with it for a bout a week and deleted it, it is a mess to use even when you figure out how to get those boxes off and get a relatively"normal" desk top might as well stay with 7, pretty much same thing.

[DemKittyNC]

19. Same with me.

I have been building my own computers since I first learned to walk just about so I am not a newbee by any means and Windows 8 is the worst excuse for a operating system I have ever seen. They are trying their best to emulate Apple. They didn't even add Blu-Ray support. Completely dropped DVD support. You have to buy Windows Media Center separate now. Yes, the operating system is cheaper now but you have to buy software separately now for many things that use to automatically come with the Windows operating systems in the past. Once you buy all this software to bring Windows 8 up to speed with past operating systems you have spent way more money then you ever would had buying for example Windows 7 at full price when first released.

[jsr]

29. Precisely.

It's a crappy deal.

[Ruby the Liberal]

45. They charge for Windows Media Center now?

Damn.

[douglas9]

118. Free Windows 8 Pro to Windows Media Center Pack upgrades until January 31, 2013

All versions of the Windows 8 operating system ship with Windows Media Player but not with Windows Media Center. That’s relevant because Media Player in Windows 8 can’t play DVD movies anymore. While you have a lot of free third party alternatives for that, like VLC Media Player or SMPlayer, you may want to know about the only official solution to add DVD playback to Windows 8. While Media Center is not included in the operating system by default, it is available as an add-on for a price.

As part of the promotions to get Windows 8 going, Microsoft is giving away free Media Center product keys that you can use to add Media Center to your version of windows 8. Here are the important facts about the offer:

http://www.ghacks.net/2012/10/25/free-windows-8-to-windows-8-pro-upgrades-until-january-31-2013/

[Ruby the Liberal]

144. Thanks for the link.

I am not going to be upgrading, but for those who are - this is a great resource.

[Old Codger]

58. Or

go back to XP which in my opinion was one of their better works....I have been building computers since mid 80's and have played with a lot of OS's, Linux, (several flavors),never played with Apple at all, my choice for one of the best was OS2 but hey dropped support for average home users so they went away... Using seven now but still run a couple boxes with XP.

[regnaD kciN]

89. XP was great...

...but some of the latest-and-greatest photo- and video-editing software I use no longer supports it.

[DemKittyNC]

99. Windows XP was one of the best Operating Systems

but unfortunately it is not longer supported and many programs are no longer being built to work on XP anymore. Many company's have totally ditched XP support. I foresee Windows 7 being supported by every software company well into the 2020's. Especially with Microsoft's utter failure at Windows 8.

Windows 9 better be damn impressive or Windows 7 will be around for even longer... lol

[MADem]

102. That sucks big time....nt

[ryan_cats]

143. What???

What? They dropped support for DVDs and Blue ray??? Is this in the stripped down home edition or all including the Ultimate edition if Windows 8 has such a thing.

I love Windows 7 even though I use the classic Windows interface which is the first thing I do on any computer. Since Windows 7 is so good, why would I upgrade to 8? Of course they're going to eventually stop bundling 7 with new computers and someone mentioned on this thread that it was more expensive to get 7 than 8.

Is Microsoft continuing to sell their release candidate version of 8 like they've done for most of their software releases?

[DemKittyNC]

159. Well...

Microsoft has never had support for Blu-ray and it was in great hopes they would include it in Windows 8 but they refuse to because of licensing issues that they do not want to support or pay for anything Blu-ray related. After all they were the losers in the Blu-ray/HD-DVD war so they are probably still sore about Blu-Ray becoming the primary HD format.

However DVD support has been totally dropped by Microsoft all together for Windows 8. Now, they are pushing the alternative of buying third party software from their new Apple... sorry, I mean Microsoft Store... lol

So while Windows 8 is indeed cheaper - if you plan on using your laptop or desktop to view store bought media you will have to buy something like say PowerDVD on top of your new Windows 8 which starts off at $40.00.

And this goes for all versions of Windows 8

[quinnox]

8. I will never have or use Win 8

I'm going to be buying some extra copies of Vista and keep those going for as long as possible on future new computers I may get. The POS known as Win 8 will not darken my door step.

[DemKittyNC]

20. I would highly suggest you buy Windows 7

Windows Vista was the second worst operating system right under Windows 8 to have ever been released. Also, Microsoft has extended it's support of Windows 7 to 2017 where Vista will no longer be supported.

[quinnox]

24. I hear you and I just might

try it some time. I happen to have grown fond of Vista through prolonged use, and I know this could seem strange to many because Vista does have a bad reputation. I consider Win 7 as something to investigate and my "fail-safe" to avoid using Win 8 or any future fucked up versions of windows that Microsoft puts out. I have heard good things about it for sure.

[DemKittyNC]

55. One good thing about Windows 7

is that it is a much powerful operating system and easier to use however it is very simple to switch to from Vista since they really didn't change the layout of Windows 7 that drastically so if you switched to Windows 7 I think you would feel right at home.

[life long demo]

108. I just switched from Vista to Win 7 beg. of Oct.

I'm def. not a computer geek. I loved XP, liked Vista, getting use to Win 7.

[IDemo]

30. I would bet money that the support will be extended far beyond that

Especially since many corporations have just upgraded to Win7 and have no compelling reason to spend the big bucks for 8.

[theKed]

48. Clrealy you never

tried to use Windows ME

[DemKittyNC]

54. Actually I have

Last edited Sat Oct 27, 2012, 07:09 AM - Edit history (1)

and yes, it is a horrible operating system as well... lol

Actually maybe more then Vista since Vista after a lot of time went buy did get patched up pretty well and became pretty usable. Of course Windows 7 came along during that time and blew Vista out of the water.

[hobbit709]

119. Actually it's a tossup between Vista and ME

But MS is running true to form. 95 was so so, 98 worked, ME sucked, XP worked, Vista really sucked, 7 works once you tweak it, 8 sucks.

[eppur_se_muova]

125. Windows updates are like Beethoven's Symphonies .... alternately bright or dark.

MS needs to come up with an equivalent to the 9th, then do like Beethoven ... and die.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

138. +1

Win 7 has been very good for me. Been building my own computers for a long time.

[amerikat]

9. Before you stumble into win 8, I suggest

you just whack the win 8 operating system and install win 7 which is pretty good.

I learned many years ago to never change to a new win system until it is out and debugger for at least 2 years.

[crazyjoe]

168. good point, XP sucked until service pack 2. I still use xp SP 3 on my buisness machine

everything just runs faster, because XP has very little overhead, whereas Windows 7 is very resource demanding. Haven't tried windows 8 and really don't plan to.

[madokie]

10. Got an email from microsoft

with this offer. Of course I'll stick with linux
Make Windows 8 yours

Enjoy the Windows 8 preview? Now you can get the final version at a great price. Download Windows 8 Pro today for just $39.99 or get the DVD boxed copy for only $69.99.

Get the offer

[NYC_SKP]

13. ***Breaks out the classic definition of the term "insanity".***

Oh, yeah.

Repeating same behavior, expecting different results.

Go Mac, you'll never go back.

[Itchinjim]

14. Well I was going to bed, but I can't figure out how to

SHUT THE DAMN THING OFF!

[chalky]

21. I'm sorry...I shouldn't laugh...

but you made me!

Still, I feel your pain. My aunt got a new computer and called me over to help her figure it out. It has Windows 8. I stumbled through it for an hour, then told her to try Geek Squad.

[BlueJazz]

38. Far right bottom....hold pointer for a few seconds

[RC]

191. Good going Microsoft!

Any corner except where the Start Button used to be.

[Egalitarian Thug]

63. Power switch, failing that, power cord. ROTFL!

Last edited Sat Oct 27, 2012, 11:36 AM - Edit history (1)

Sorry, but that was just damn funny.

[blazeKing]

15. I'm still on XP

Works wonderfully still, after all these years.

[forestpath]

44. Same here!

[CabCurious]

171. In fairness, Win7 is very solid.

[eridani]

203. And here n/t

[liberalmuse]

17. So someone else lives in SAP hell.

I'm going to stick with my Mac, and my workplace is so behind the times we're still on Window's XP.

[rightsideout]

18. Thanks for the info on 8

We're a Mac family (PowerMac, iMac and PowerBook) but have a couple PCs, one running Vista and one running 7. So it's good to know not to upgrade to 8 any time soon. I was surprised 8 came out already. I prefer Mac OS but I'm biased.

[tridim]

22. Metro is meh, the desktop kicks ass.

Did you even make it to the desktop? LOL.

I'm a programmer and 8 is just fine. Believe me, or believe a neophyte who gets so mad at his new operating system that he has to storm off to bed instead of taking 5 minutes to learn it.

[RomneyLies]

34. If they left the ability to default to the desktop in, I'd buy Win 8

As is, until they give that ability back (which was present all the way through the beta) I won't buy it.

[Initech]

64. I've got two Windows 8 licenses coming. One for laptop, one for desktop.

I've heard several MSDN members now say Windows 8 is better than the hype would have you believe. So hopefully it is.

[RegieRocker]

23. Computers suck

and it's because of guys like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. Open source is the only way to go. Get a linux system and put it on a second hard drive. Eventually more and more program providers will step up to linux. It takes more people using linux for this to happen. Steam is coming out with a linux version. The light at the end of the tunnel is visible.

[Egalitarian Thug]

61. Correction; Innovation killing corporate computers (OSes) suck. The newer hardware borders on

miraculous. It's just that most users are so inured to criminally bad software that they don't know what a revolution they have sitting on their desk.

[dixiegrrrrl]

83. Agree. Love my trouble free Linux.

Am very fortunate Mr. Dixie builds our puters. Hope open source has a long long future.

[defacto7]

86. I've been M$ free for 6 years, Apple for 10.

I run 8 servers and 3 networks in my house, plus a school system and another system I can't discuss, all Linux. I have no idea why anyone pays for stuff that's already been done. Beyond me. No more need be said... it's been said before and people will do what they want to do. As for me and my house, we will serve Linux.

[ejpoeta]

106. I put Ubuntu on a laptop so I can see if I can use it. I have trouble trying to

figure out how to do things. So far I haven't figured out how I can print my coupons. I have searched and have found no way to do it. It took me two days to figure out how to connect to the wifi. With my regular computer, I would not need to worry about the wifi. But I think one of the problems with linux is someone like me who does not know how to get things to work gets very frustrated. I was very happy when I finally got it to work, but then I moved on to one of my other concerns.... no support for the coupon printers. This isn't really Linux's fault. But to find a workaround... A necessity for me as I am a coupon shopper (no not the extreme couponing). I really want Ubuntu to work. My husband found a free photo editing software for linux. I was very happy with that. I generally actually like Ubuntu for what I use the computer for. Just would like it to be easier to figure out.

[L0oniX]

210. Ubuntu help forums are very abundant. There's a ton of docs.

[ejpoeta]

230. that's true. They are very helpful. I searched the internets for info

on how to accomplish the wifi. I tried several suggestions before I found the right one. I have also been trying to get it to connect with windows computers. Mine is the main computer where we store all files and access them from other computers. So it would need to be able to do that. I have been searching for how to do that too. I know it is possible.... just haven't figured it out. I am suggesting that this might be a reason why people don't use linux.... You have to want it bad enough to search for how to do so many things. It gets very frustrating. I will keep searching though. I want to figure this out.

[L0oniX]

209. Ubuntu rox.

[jsr]

25. No kidding

I will not buy a computer with Win8 preinstalled.

[madrchsod]

26. 7 will be around for a long time

xp is still the easiest to use but 7 is all that bad.in a couple of years microshit will put out windows 9 which will actually work

[davidpdx]

79. Yeah I like Window 7

XP was ok and Vista was a piece of crap. I won't go to Windows 8 at all.

Every three to four years I buy a new laptop for the better technology and speed (my wife always gets my older one). When I get my next one I'll have to figure out how to get Windows 7 put on it instead of 8. I'm figuring it will be 2-3 years before the next version comes out depending on how much people grumble about 8.

[regnaD kciN]

90. Don't set your hopes on Windows 9...

I understand that the plan for Win9 is to ditch the desktop and backwards compatibility (not to mention all the software written -- mainly in C or C++ -- for that paradigm) entirely, and turn Windows into an environment solely for full-screen apps written in HTML5 and Flash.

[madrchsod]

167. yuck....

[Impious]

28. I downloaded and installed Windows 8 beta pre-release

and detested it. Not only did the absence of the Start button drive me crazy, my printer stopped working.

Hated it. Took me a while to figure out how to revert back to Windows 7 but that's what I did.

I WOULD buy and use Windows 8 if Microsoft were smart enough to put back the Start button and if my perfectly fine printer driver would work. Otherwise, I see no reason to change.

[baldguy]

128. I remember when people complained about Windows 95.

They missed Progman, and thought the Start button made no sense; "You mean, I have to press Start to turn the machine off? "

One of MS's tag lines for the introduction of Win 95 was "Ready or not, here it comes!" The joke was, that it sounded more like a threat than a promise.

[MFM008]

31. i still use vista...

[tarheelsunc]

35. Every other Microsoft OS is a POS

Windows 98 - Good
Windows 2000 - Windows 98 with the number 2000 instead of 98
Windows XP - Legendary, still my favorite
Windows Vista - Bugged and a resource hog
Windows 7 - Big improvement over Vista

[Go Vols]

37. ME sucked too.

[Paulie]

62. So did Microsoft Bob

[Redlo Nosrep]

135. Hey, I Liked Microsoft Bob!

I have fond memories of learning how to be comfortable with what the computer could do at my kindergarten level with ol' Bob.

[joshcryer]

72. 7 is glorious with copious amounts of RAM. RAM is cheap so it's fine.

I got 8 gigs here and programs, once loaded, never take time to load again. It's awesome functionality.

I had a crash once, with a faulty hard drive. Fortunately the hard drive didn't die before I could recover the data. But it was causing freeze ups.

[jmowreader]

101. Windows 2000 was a slightly more usable NT

Windows NT was their attempt to make Windows an OS rather than a DOS shell. All Windows releases since then are NT-based even if they won't tell you that.

I heard a rumor NT was Unix-based, but in the command shell rm and ls don't work, and mv definitely doesn't.(ECRM, who made my platesetters, writes their server software to run on XP.)

[muriel_volestrangler]

112. No, NT (or other MS OSes) was/are not Unix based

They come, ancestrally, from the Microsoft/IBM collaboration that produced OS/2. When the 2 divorced (after OS/2 1.2), IBM kept OS/2, and MS used the collaboration as the base for NT, then 2000, XP, Vista, and 7 (I don't know about 8). But you're right that it's not a DOS shell, which Windows 3/95/98/ME were, but a true operating system with its own kernel, written from scratch.

[spanone]

36. macbook pro

[Hissyspit]

91. Well, that was my solution.

Mountain Lion working fine for me (although i did lose my ability to use my Photoshop when I upgraded to Snow Leopard).

[PoiBoy]

39. The windows button + D gets you to the desktop...

It seems to me that the new start page for Win 8 is just like speed dial on my browser... I really like speed dial on my browser, not so much on my computer...

I'll stick with Win 7 Pro...

[eShirl]

40. Ubuntu's not bad

sometimes I forget I'm not running Windows anymore

[Egalitarian Thug]

57. I just had that experience myself. Forgot that the windoze partition that has been sucking HDD

space for about 4 years blew up (video drivers, one of M$ most traditional brain-farts) and tried to boot to it. I've just got to get around to getting that shit off my drive one or these days...

[L0oniX]

211. Wife and I both run Ubuntu. I do all my html on it. Gimp rox too. Everything works.

I'll never use winsux again.

[Blue_In_AK]

41. I got my computer upgraded to Windows 7 a couple months ago.

My computer guy said he was stocking up on Win 7 programs for all the people he was anticipating would want to have Win 8 uninstalled from their new PC's. He had nothing good to say about Win 8.

[Ruby the Liberal]

43. For this very reason

I opened an account with OfficeMax this week so I could buy an ideapad for 6 months no interest. My laptop was on its last legs and in another week or so, I would be forced to replace it with a Windoze 8 machine. Wasn't going to do that until next June or so, but the OS release made me move it up.

Heard the other day that Windoze 8 = ME = Vista. Seems every other Microsoft release is stable (read: 2000, XP, 7) so not willing to risk it given the really harsh reviews.

Sorry you are dealing with this.

[Pisces]

46. Do yourself a favor: put computer back in box,return, go buy an Apple. Problem solved.

[regnaD kciN]

92. Boring Mac Evangelist Is Boring...

[cleanhippie]

142. Well sure, because having one's computer and OS just plain work well is, boring.

[fascisthunter]

192. that's exactly what Windows loyalists are

boring... Windows has dominated the world since the beginning of computers. Get over it already. Do they pay you to use their products then defend them by attacking those who do think something different is better from your mainstream crap? I use both on a daily basis only because I have to...Windows is Inferior and thePC's that run it, are just crap unless you pay for high quality parts. By the time you are done building your own, you pay almost 50% more. For what?!

loyalty to a piece of crap product, WINDOWS.At least run Linux.

[RebelOne]

162. I will stick with Mac.

I have had numerous PCs in the past and always had problems with Windows. Then I bought a Mac in 2009 and will never change back.

[William Seger]

47. Windows Metro = "New Coke"

Metro is the name MS gives to that ugly interface that looks like it was built with clashing-color Legos, "optimized" for touch screens. Dumbest idea they've since they decided to design the interface to Windows Media Center for use with a remote control, apparently oblivious to what a pain in the ass it is to use with a mouse.

[freshwest]

49. Can you take it back and get something else?

[condoleeza]

52. Why would anyone buy a PC when they could buy a MAC?

I feel your pain, but seriously.........

[Egalitarian Thug]

56. To save a thousand dollars.

OTOH, why would anyone bother with either of these intrusive life-suckers when you can work for free and find out just how freaking amazing your new hardware really is without the bloat?

[bettyellen]

131. ridiculous

[Egalitarian Thug]

145. More ridiculous than paying so much more for something that is no better?

I guess if money means nothing and you don't care about putting tens of thousands of Americans out of work, it might be. It's already impossible to buy American hardware, why not finish of American software. too.

Maybe we should all go work at the Apple store. Oh wait, they don't hire anyone over 30.

[Pisces]

152. I guess if your time troubleshooting your pc isnt worth anything keep the pc. I like having knowing

my computer will work with no issues. It is easy to use that children have mastered the computer due to its graphics.
Paying more for something that is far superior makes sense. I feel sorry for you that you are so tainted against Apple
products you can't be objective.

[DireStrike]

153. My PC works fine, so Nyah.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. We have a PC for gaming

And a Mac for work.

I prefer the Mac.

[Egalitarian Thug]

158. The hardware is identical. Windows is the problem well over 99% of the time. I'm not "tainted"

against Apple except insofar as I know a great deal about this and the secret of Apple's success is marketing, proprietary software that locks you into their perpetual income generation machine, and plastic casing. Of course there is no perfection and Apple hardware has exactly the same tiny failure rate as any other computer.

The box I'm writing this on has been working constantly for over six years. It has never failed, overheated, locked up, etc. and still delivers better performance than any Apple or windoze machine even though my CPU is no match for the newest hardware. I built it for less than $600. I don't need anti-virus software (or firewall, but I have one at the router), and my OS has been doing for over a decade what is being sold to you as cutting edge, but buggy, right now. I also don't have to deal with any DRM scheme's, intrusive licenses, or having to pay for what I already own again every two or three years.

You're confusing an OS interface, and Apple's is quite nice, with a computer. What I'm seeing more and more is people with last generation Apple's switching over for just these reasons.

And, I would bet your kids would figure it out just as quickly and enjoy a wider variety of better software. All this for the princely sum of $0.

The point is that both Apple and M$ are both screwing you out of your money for no good reason.

[Pisces]

161. I appreciate your post and the information. I think their are tech savvy people like yourself that

know a lot more about computers than the average end user. I am sure that you are correct in your assessment, however,
the regular non tech savvy end user like myself want to open a box, plug in the computer and have it work with out any
troubleshooting, downloading etc. This is wat Apple has perfected. Anyone with little to no knowledge can purchase an Apple product and use it within minutes of opening the package.

My elderly mother uses an ipad and an iPhone with ease. This is incredible for her because she is low information end user.
I think the reason Apple is so successful is the marketing to ease of use. People are willing to pay a lot of convenience and they
have this down to a science. The way all of the Apple products sync also make it a no brainer purchase all Apple products.

[Egalitarian Thug]

169. Thank you for the conversational tone, and I understand exactly what you're saying.

The thing that drives me insane about the Windoze/Mac wars is that the only reason either of them exist is an enormous marketing budget. Millions of people like yourself, your kids, and your mother want and only need an appliance. You want to get online, write some letters/memos, and maybe do some simple spreadsheet work. Yet they have you convinced you that you have to spend so much more time and money messing with a tool that has capabilities you don't know exist and would never need if you did.

There is an alternative, and you can try it with no risk and no cost whatsoever (Well technically I guess a DVD costs a few cents or a flash drive costs a few bucks). You can try it without installing anything and there is absolutely no risk that you can screw up your resident system. If you do like it, you can install it in addition to your existing system, again with no risk of screwing it up, and it costs nothing. Ever. The license gives you all the rights and precludes any possibility of it ever costing you anything. It is completely open, meaning that it will read anything you have on Mac or Windoze, and if you do catch tech-fever, you can change it in any way you like.

Some of the most talented tech people in the world devote their time to improving and expanding it for no compensation other than the satisfaction of working on a system that makes sense and is safe and secure. In fact we spend most of our time working around the roadblocks that Apple & M$ create through their market dominance for no reason other than to keep you and everybody else from realizing that you don't need them.

Any computer you buy from a retailer costs $100 - $200 more for no reason other than to make Apple or M$ even richer. If their software were actually better, then I could see some justification for the added cost, but not only is it not better, it is in almost every respect, worse.

[NuttyFluffers]

218. you said install. that doesn't work for my older parents.

i can't be there to hold their hand all the time. and after early DOS & Windows blowing up all the time my folks are petrified of doing anything more complicated than media consumption. they will absolutely not do what you're talking about -- a lifetime of crappy MS operating systems have seen to that.

only recently, after switching fully to Macs 7+ years ago, are they getting comfortable using their computers. that level of ease and peace of mind to me is priceless. knowing that i can "wall off their garden," teach a few basics, and at most run a few safety precautions, basically set it and forget it, has been priceless. i will gladly pay hundreds of dollars to have them not fear their machines (either destroying them or being scammed, malware, etc.).

KISS simplicity is worth more than gold.

[Egalitarian Thug]

219. I said you don't have to install it, it can be run from the disk (although it will run slower).

But I know what you mean, my dad is the same way except in his case he is not afraid and will not follow the few simple rules I gave him. I have to fix his computer 3 - 6 times a year because he won't leave windoze and won't stop installing malware from the bottom feeders.

[NuttyFluffers]

222. i could install it, but how much native "childproofing" and automation is there?

and is it mindlessly easy to implement? my time's worth way more than tinkering around with machines anymore. i quit that MS stuff ages ago and refuse to build or tinker with another motherboard or OS; i'm just burnt out and done. i need to be guided to where to click it, otherwise i *click* the thing off.

that and it has to be as intuitive and easy to operate for them. with Mac you pay for the design interface, and glory be, if that isn't worth the price of admission i don't know what out there is. if it ain't stupid easy to use like a hammer, it will just sit there in my folks house.

familiarity is a powerful force.

what was your dad's response as to why he won't leave windows? what was his response to Linux? isn't there a kit out there whose GUI is nigh identical to Win 98 yet?

[Egalitarian Thug]

226. I was a geek before it was cool, so I have a hard time estimating this kind of

thing. The best answer I can give you is to burn a disk and run it from disk to see for yourself. 99.9% of the time it will self-configure and you're off. The function bar is at the top like Apple's (or how it used to be, I haven't used anything else for almost a decade so I'm rather out of the loop) and there another tool bar down the right side with all the most common apps and where you click to find any new apps you want. Everything from Ubuntu is self-installing, so no compatibility worries there, and the fact that it is Linux (Debian) at its core means you are secure. No firewall (usually) needed, no anti-virus, and if one is bound and determined to be stupid there is almost no chance that disaster will strike.

Click Tux to see if it is for you.

[NuttyFluffers]

227. oh no, i'm computer savvy, just retired from the race.

i'm more curious about the GUI. and there's like umpteen Linux distros out there, so i don't know which one'll give what features i want. kind of a pain to sift and stuff, y'know.

off to click your link. maybe it'll be a nice toy for me to run PC games on my Mac.

if it's really good and simple i might test run my folks on it. but they tend to veto things more complicated than a basic tv remote (yeah, not even the cable remote -- the old tv remote!).

[CabCurious]

172. Yet still true.

If you build your own PC, you save incredible amounts of money and can easily outperform the standard apple products.

[fascisthunter]

187. wrong...PC's cost just as much or more because they are inferior

they suck... period. Suck you dry.

[Egalitarian Thug]

195. Wrong M$ OS and software suck you dry. They're all PC's and mine is faster, more secure, more

reliable, and about $1,000 less expensive than an Apple.

[fascisthunter]

198. yeah.... too bad most average consumers don't know how to build them

I buy tools to build, not to build tools to build.

I recommend folks learn to build their own, and then see for themselves what the added costs are alongside owning a prebuilt Mac with OSX. You will continuously hear this myth that PC's are cheaper, but they aren't in the long run, not for most... and unless you have the education/experience of building your own, you will continuously get a less guaranteed experience with that product. PC users on a whole are getting ripped off, Windows makes your computer that much more faulty, insecure, and more expensive, adding cost to that computer in way that does NOT benefit the consumer. Apple computers are solid good product for the most part. I get security and reliability at a much lower cost, and the customer service is top notch

I wish Linux all the success and luck possible, because we do need true competition to OSX and their prebuilt hardware... sure is better than most PC prebuilt hardware. Unless... you pay a good price for it.

[Egalitarian Thug]

200. The problem with allowing monopolies. We've learned this lesson before, looks like

we're going to have to learn it again. You should watch out as well though, Apple has not maintained it's strict standards for hardware vendors and more and more Chinese crap is finding its way into Apple systems. Personally, I find that paying the extra $5 (retail) for Japanese made components to be more than worth the price.

Linux is still superior from a technical viewpoint and Ubuntu has done really well in making it user-friendly for the non-geek. If you haven't seen it for a couple of years, you should check it out. My personal favorite aspect is that you have to really look hard to find components that it doesn't automatically recognize and configure. It is more than what 99.9% of users need right now.

Something that may be relevant to you, should the monopolists allow it and true 64-bit apps become ubiquitous, Ubuntu is already there. Barring some breakthrough in physics, the hardware is reaching its maximum potential and the only way to go forward will be in fully utilizing the revolution in manufacturing technologies through software. But VBx, C#, Rails, and all the other "you don't really have to know how to program to be a programmer" crap, isn't going to cut it.

[jmowreader]

202. Because Linux is completely incompatible with my printer

My printer (a Goss Magnum five-tower newspaper press) requires CMYK images, and there is no Linux solution that properly handles CMYK.

[Egalitarian Thug]

217. There are several out there. You don't define properly, but the community is always looking

to improve.

One of the best things bout Linux beyond its performance reliability, etc., is that real people can speak directly to real developers for specific solutions to any problem. If you use some Adobe solution now it is pretty certain that a large group of Linux developers already know what you're talking about and can either point you to an existing solution or will write one.

[jmowreader]

224. I found this on the ArchLinux wiki regarding CMYK...

Limitations

Using the methods below has some limitations in comparison to commercial tools. Namely, Separate+ and its predecessors have no support for GCR (Grey Component Replacement) and UCR (Undercolor Removal). Also, Separate plugin (not Separate+) has no support for clipping path, and there is no support for opening CMYK files in either Separate or Separate+.
While undercolor removal is supported by Scribus, grey component replacement is not supported by any graphical tool on Linux as of this writing.

Undercolor removal and grey component replacement are used because color ink (cyan, magenta and yellow) is twice the price of black ink, and because you can only lay down so much ink before ink transfers from one sheet to another--which is called offsetting. (How much ink it takes before you get offsetting depends on the paper you're using.) Black ink is somewhere between $5 and $7 per pound depending on how much you buy, and color ink is between $10 and $14. To save money, this is what happens:

If you have an area that's predominantly black but also has color in it (like a black cat, say), undercolor removal comes into play. If an area has:
60 percent cyan
55 percent magenta
55 percent yellow
90 percent black

you can pull 20-30 percent of the three colors out of the area, leave the black where it is, and have the job still look good.

If you have an area that has:
70 percent cyan
40 percent magenta
30 percent yellow
0 percent black

and you know that black is roughly equivalent to equal parts of the three colors, you can do this:
60 percent cyan
30 percent magenta
20 percent yellow
10 percent black

and get pretty much the same result with less ink on the sheet. Those numbers won't really give you a savings in money, but the job will dry better.

The thing is this: would a Linux developer's time better be spent working on a very complex functionality that very few people would ever use (even if it was available for GIMP, most of us will stay with Photoshop because it works, we like it and it pays for itself quickly) or on an addition to Apache that a LOT of people would use?

[Egalitarian Thug]

225. I'm not saying you must dump Photoshop an adopt GIMP. There are an infinite number of problems

that will effect a tiny number of users and for whom the solution has not yet been created. But rather that it is much much more likely that a solution, potentially a better solution, can be developed within the Linux model.

The statement " would a Linux developer's time better be spent working on a very complex functionality that very few people would ever use" points to the very heart of the failure of the corporate model. There are a very few people for whom a problem exists. Isn't it better that one or some of those people can work with the one (or more) developer for whom it is an interesting problem, than to have all of the people for whom it is a problem individually trying to find their own workaround/solution?

This is why the pharmaceutical industry, for example, is not interested in curing disease or even in developing a treatment for rare diseases. There's no profit in it, so let those few suffer and die.

The difference between cooperation and coercion.

[Zalatix]

76. Why would I pay hundreds EXTRA for offshore outsourced crap?

Both Macs and PCs are made overseas. Why would I pay extra for that?

If I'm going to pay that I'd rather get it made in the USA.

[MattSh]

95. And your computer is made where???

Even if you're putting together your own computer from parts, guess where the parts are made...

[Zalatix]

109. Like I said, I'm not going to pay EXTRA for offshore outsourced crap.

That isn't a denial that everything is made in China. That's saying I'm not going to pay a premium for made in China.

The ONLY time I'm going to pay a premium is for Made in the USA stuff.

[hobbit709]

121. Show me a computer ACTUALLY built from Made in USA stuff.

Starting with the case and moving up to the motherboard, RAM, drives, graphics and power supply.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

129. You get what you pay for

so perhaps you should stop complaining. My 4-week-old iMac is like a beautiful dream. While I don't care for the business practices of Apple. Inc. I was not about to punish myself when it came to a new computer. What's more to the point, are there any electronics made in the USA any longer...cell phones, e-readers, gaming devices?

[Zalatix]

141. Not really.

And didn't I already say everything is made in China? I'm not going to get gouged for it. Apple makes a huge profit above and beyond their cost of production.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

148. Agreed...

As I said, I don't care for their business model...the gross margin on the IPhone 4 was 51% down from 56% for the iPhone 3 because of the expense of gorilla glass.... But if you need a new computer, you want one that will outlast any PC out there, and is easy to use the iMac is your most economical choice.... Besides, if everything is made elsewhere are you refraining from buying any new electronics? The newest Samsung Galaxy is as costly as an iPhone... Believe me I struggled with this issue for a year....

[Egalitarian Thug]

170. "if you need a new computer, you want one that will outlast any PC out there"

That statement is simply not true. As you have pointed out most of the hardware is made in China (although if you really want quality Japan makes the very best in the world right now), so what you are arguing is that Apple has a better OS than M$ and you really, really like the plastic case that surrounds identical hardware. The problem is that neither of these Operating Systems is better than the one that costs nothing, zero, zip, nada.

Every time you buy an Apple product you are helping to make the world worse. Everybody that buys a M$ OS is, likewise, making the world a worse place. There are alternatives. And you can put them into any plastic you like.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

183. Sure,

if you know how to do more than turn on the computer. If I had your expertise I might have gone that way myself, but sadly this old broad was already in her 50s when she got her first computer I wouldn't know how to go about getting an operating system on my own, nor what to do with it if I found sitting on my sofa.

I need a new cell phone...any recommendations? Believe me, I don't like pouring money into Apple any more than do you.

[Egalitarian Thug]

184. OK, I totally understand. BTW, election day will be my 51st birthday.

As far as operating systems go, Apple is better than M$, nobody with any real knowledge can reasonably argue that beyond picayune details about this particular function or that one feature, Here's the thing, Linux is today better than either of them and has always been years ahead of both of them. Apple's OS was almost comparable years ago because Jobs and Woz based their OS on BSDU (Berkeley Systems Design Unix) and Linux is also loosely based on the UNIX architecture, IOW, they were really the same thing. M$ has always sucked from any angle.

All that aside, you know how to download from the web, you know how to burn a CD/DVD, so you can try out a superior OS without paying anything to anyone. There is no giant Chinese slave factory, no asinine licensing rules, no cult of personality war, no marketing, and no risk at all. You can run it from the DVD you made yourself without installing anything (it will run slower, so keep that in mind if you try it without installing) and without doing anything at all to the Mac OS just to see if you like it. Further, if you do like it and install it, you don't have to choose one or the other. You can run both systems, side by side, without blowing up your Mac OS. When you turn on your computer, you simply choose which one you want to use this time.

The main thing I'm trying to get across is that the hardware, the things you can see and touch, in your computer is exactly the same regardless of which side you come down on in the PC/Apple war. The only difference is the software and the package the hardware is housed in, and the best software is free.

You don't have to give a dime to Apple or M$ or Linux. you get to save money several ways (no anti-virus needed for example), and you also support to the people (most of whom work for corporate organizations like M$ and Apple to pay the bills) that work for free just to give people an alternative to the corporate parasites that work only for their own benefit.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

190. Well, Happy Birthday to you!

Harry Truman was president when I was born! I'll turn 65 in February.

I have never burned a CD/DVD...I know, I know that's pathetic. I have to buy some blanks (I have a bunch of blank CDs but I was told they probably won't hold what I want to copy from my old Mac) so my old G4 is sitting on the floor next to my desk.

I have a friend who is the IT department for a small company in MS...she tried to find an OS that was compatible with my old computer, but couldn't..I know she uses Linux on her PC. My old Mac was fine except that I couldn't use any of the newest browsers which made videos a sometimes thing, and some sites would be almost impossible to navigate...Huffington Post for example. (Although it has changed so much I rarely bother visiting these days) I have the new Mountain Lion OS, but would be very interested in trying another OS...because I know eventually Apple will change their OS configuration again and I'll have the same problem I had for the past year or so which finally drove me to the new computer...sigh...

I don't bother with anti-virus stuff. I don't open email from people or organizations I don't know, I don't visit exotic websites and I've never had a virus problem. I'm a very vanilla computer user. Perhaps you wouldn't mind telling me where I might find this superior OS you've mentioned? And perhaps I could mail you here at DU to walk me through the process?

[Egalitarian Thug]

199. Thank you very much and no problem at all. The link at the penguin with the circle on his belly

(bottom of my previous reply) will take you to the starting place with some basic information on what I feel is the best Linux package for people like I imagine you to be. Feel free to PM me, I at least check in here most days now, and I'll be happy to help you.

The G4 is a dozen years obsolete, so that may be a bit tougher as hardware today is light years from those days, but I'll look at/for some alternatives in the next few days. There are quite a few configurations for that box, so let me know if you're interested in pursuing this

[Sekhmets Daughter]

207. Good Morning!

Thank you so very much for your help. I replaced my G4 last month...with a brand new iMac with the newest OS, Mountain Lion...but I still have my G4, as I want to copy some things from it onto DVDs. Now, if we could get it running better I would be happy to figure out
how to get my personal info off of the hard drive and donating it to a local charity...a church, a shelter something like that. There is no rush, anytime before Christmas would be great.

[Egalitarian Thug]

185. On cell phones; Again I'm doing this myself right now. Here's what I think so far...

I have been with Verizon for years because they were literally the only option in the boondocks where I lived, but I hate them. They are the worst of a very bad lot and I would vehemently discourage anyone from doing business with these bloodsuckers.

There are two protocols, GSM (sometimes called edge) and CDMA. CDMA is the most common standard in the U.S. but the rest of the world uses GSM, so if you leave the country and want to use your own phone you will want GSM. T-Mobile and AT&T are the only networks in the U.S. that use GSM.

Apple, true to form, uses a proprietary OS for their phones which may or may not be locked to a specific carrier (like Verizon). I would stay away from any network that locks you into their service. If you're going to pay $300 - $600 for a phone I think you should be able to choose who you want to get network access with it.

Let me back up here for a minute. You should understand that so-called smart phones are just dumb and slow computers small enough to carry in your pocket, so we're back to a battle of operating systems and accessories.

I lean toward Android. it is a pretty good architecture, open to anyone that wants to use it, and built to expand to include future capabilities. In the world of proprietary systems, the consensus seems to be that iPhone is the best, although this is outside of my area of expertise. From what I'm reading and hearing, Apple, HTC, and Samsung make the best phones.

One more thing I think is relevant, Nobody else in the world uses the quasi-monopolistic model for cell service we have here in America. There is no such thing as a two year contract with one company so the prices the rest of the world pay are a fraction of what we pay (you can thank Bill Clinton for that little gem). I think it's inevitable that, sooner or later, that scam will end here too.

[condoleeza]

149. You don't have to buy a new computer

I bought a Macbook Pro with 2.16 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor, OSX Lion and all the bells and whistles from a guy on Craigslist who buys old ones and fixes them up and I paid $565.00 for it, has been trouble free and I am by no means a techie. So, do I get bonus points for recycling?

[mythology]

53. Oddly most of the personal reviews have said Windows 8 is bad

but the technical reviews I've seen have been much more impressed by Windows 8.

I suspect I will like it, but probably not use it as my main OS. I think it will partially depend on how useful it is with touch. My 7 computer has a touch screen and I've found it's sometimes useful, but there's a lot more than could be done with touch interface.

But then I'm as OS agnostic as one can get. I've got XP, Vista, Ubuntu, 7, Snow Leopard and Jaguar installed on various computers and a Raspberry Pi is on my list for the near future.

[regnaD kciN]

93. The "technical reviews" appear in magazines...

...that want to stay in Microsoft's good graces.

[RC]

196. Did anyone make any distinction between the OS and the GUI on Win 8?

While the Win 8 may be a good operating system, the GUI is what you see and what you have to use, and that does suck.

You also gotta remember that those companies that make the equipment they write the reviews about, are the same companies that buy ads in that same publication. Can you say "Conflict of interest"? I thought so.

[SmileyRose]

59. I'm almost 60 yrs old and they will pry XP out of my cold dead hands.

[Redlo Nosrep]

136. You and Me, Baby

I intend to be buried with XP clutched in mine, and I'm 65.

[blazeKing]

164. I'm a young 28 and I'll be damned if they'll take my XP

Vista and 7 were just moneymaking schemes. XP can do everything those can, at better speeds and with better reliability.

[Blue_In_AK]

163. 7 isn't bad

I'm 66 and I can find my way around it ok. There are some features of 7 that I really like.

[Terra Alta]

60. I bought a new PC yesterday

Was kind of hoping for one with Windows 8, but settled for one with Windows 7 instead. After reading the comments, I'm glad I did. I think I'll wait until Windows 9 comes out before getting my next PC.

[bongbong]

65. The only decent MS OS was, believe it or not, UNIX

The first (Intel-based) desktop UNIX I ever used was XENIX, which was a version of UNIX written by MS. Years before Linus Torvalds even heard of the pwd command.

[lexx21]

68. Are you sure that they wrote it? I thought that Xerox did and sold the license to MS.

And you are right, it was kick ass back in it's day. I used it quite often.

Now if I want to run Linux or any other OS for that matter, I do it with a VM. Easy and quick to do. Heck you can even run the Amiga OS in a VM if you want.

I just wish BeOS had taken off. Now that was a cool OS.

[joshcryer]

77. I think it came from AT&T but you're right. Hell, MS bought DOS from some guy.

They didn't write their own OS until Windows 1.0 and admittedly they did copy design characteristics from Mac OS (which themselves copied from Xerox; irony?).

MS was one of those really evil corps that assimilated other corps (or other guys' code) to profit. It was weird.

BeOS, interestingly, was the real reason for the MS anti-trust lawsuit. But they settled out of court and the whole "IE integration" thing became the main reason for the anti-trust lawsuit. I wish BeOS kept with it because they had a truly legitimate complaint. BeOS wasn't being allowed to be installed on OEMs for free due to Microsoft's dirty contract forbidding it. It was a genius (but totally evil) move by Microsoft because they basically shut off all OS competition on the PC platform.

I remember when Mac's went to PC, Apple basically said "Hey, here's bootcamp, you can install Windows if you want." It was a really smart move by Apple. Really smart!

[L0oniX]

214. Unix flavor BSD ....yum n/t

[ananda]

66. I love my Mac!

nt

[bhikkhu]

67. I love my Ubuntu

...ten years of using it, and every newer version has been an improvement on the last. It was always so much better than windows (which I'm forced to use on computers at work) that I was never tempted to go back, and the current version (12.04) is soooo good, easy to use, beautiful and intuitive...

[L0oniX]

215. 12.04 LTS ...with BSD kernel yum n/t

[PD Turk]

69. I'm posting this from a 8 year old G5 mac

Running OSX Leopard 10.5.8. I pulled my hair out for years before I figured out windows is a fatally flawed and tragically defective product. Never again will I bang my head against the wall over one of those damn things

[Lugnut]

70. I had to spring for a new PC in August.

Mine, thankfully, has Windows 7. As a former XP user I can say that I'm still figuring out how this version works.

[joshcryer]

71. I'm sticking with Windows 7 until WIndows 9 or 11 come out.

I went from XP to Windows 7. Skipped Vista entirely.

[wtmusic]

73. Tip: buy AAPL at the morning bell on Monday

There's a buying opportunity after it took a hit on earnings reports.

Macs will dominate personal computing in 5 years.

[joshcryer]

74. Doubtful. Until Apple releases their OS freely then innovation will still be spurred...

...by individuals building their own PCs (and, unfortunately, installing Windows).

The key is that Windows 8, like Vista, will be shunned by the PC community, and Microsoft will have to adapt and evolve and make a better OS.

As it stands now a "Hackintosh" is illegal to build, or at least, you could be sued if you built one. There are no drivers for higher end cards on a "Hackintosh" and what drives PC innovation is high end users who want the best of the best. So they build their own computers.

[wtmusic]

175. The reason Macs work so well is they maintain control over their OS

A little background - I've programmed C++ and some assembly language on both platforms since the 80s.

Windows 7 was shunned by the PC community. Windows XP was shunned, as was Vista, 2000...After several hundred "service packs" Microsoft gets something approaching stable.

New Macintosh OSes have problems too. When OSX was first released, I sounded like OP...I was ready to commit a heinous crime. But all considered, Macs have 1/10 the compatibility and security issues, and their system is just cleaner period - virtually none of the error popups that PC users accept as normal. MacOSX is faster than Windows - hands down - where processor speeds are similar. Fast PC processors are more more affordable so they in large part overcome that limitation.

Windows will be around for a long time, but it will become increasingly consigned to users like yourself who know it well, can hack their way around its deficiencies, and appreciate a bargain. Many less-inclined users are discovering being a beta tester for Microsoft ends up being no bargain at all in time wasted.

[joshcryer]

201. Windows 7 had the shortest shunning period, imo. They had a really long beta test.

The argument that Mac's "work so well" because they maintain control over their OS is kind of out dated. It may have been a good argument back when there were lots of different vendors and everyone was trying to do things their own way, necessitating copious driver fixes and such by Microsoft, but that is no longer the case. Most gadgets use standards and there are only two major video card manufacturers (Intel would be the third but they're not as popular).

The driving force for PC innovation remains the high end users who are willing to drop $500 for a video card and when SSDs were being adopted, $100s of dollars (SSDs have now come down in price significantly thanks to those adopters).

One reason Mac's have "less compatibility issues" is that frankly their supported devices exist in a smaller space. Sure you will have 1/10th of the compatibility issues if only 1/10th of the gadgets work with your system!

In the end it's not really true that OSX is faster than Windows 7: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel_sandy_threesome&num=9

When you do a videogame showdown again Windows destroys OSX: http://howto.cnet.com/8301-11310_39-10319612-285/performance-showdown-windows-7-vs-snow-leopard/

Video performance is the key driving factor for PC innovation. And it's not Apple driving the performance increase. It's the high end users (who may even run OSX in a Virtual system; illegally).

For what it's worth I have never paid a dime for Windows and will never pay for it. I am resigned to using it for gaming and it's not worth dual booting into Linux for fun. Instead I run Linux in VirtualBox when the need arises.

[wtmusic]

208. Looking at "PC innovation" from an entirely gaming-based perspective, I agree.

That would apply to comparisons of OSX speed vs. Windows 7 - you're really looking at graphics card performance, not the OS itself.

There's more reason than ever for gamers to just skip Windows and get an X-Box or similar dedicated gaming platform, so gaming on desktops has a limited future anyway.

[joshcryer]

223. PC gaming is coming back hard with Steam.

Xbox and PS3 and Wii are all far far outdated technologically (PS3 was released 6 years ago utilizing 8 year old technology!).

What will be a game changer is if Valve decides to make a Linux based console standard. That is, rather than making PCs with their own custom OS (like Apple does) make a standard so that manufactures can make PC-like consoles at their whim and be certified as Valve Consoles.

Basically like how the DVD and Bluray standards exist. The DVD working group or whatever it was called threw a standard out there and various manufacturers followed it.

This is seen by many in the gaming community as the coming eventuality.

It wouldn't surprise me if Apple tries to jump into that game-space, to be honest. But, they will have to be open to innovation, expansion, and hacking by low level users. I don't think that fits with their culture.

BTW, the comparisons I posted were direct. Basically, same PC, same video card, OSX performs worse than Windows 7 in a certain space. I think if the same comparison was done on graphic design software the results may have actually been different since artists tend to go toward OSX and that is one area where Apple does try to optimize their OS.

[onehandle]

115. I don't know if they will dominate, but their stock will rise 60% by this time next year. nt

[LAGC]

132. You really are a hard-core Apple fanboy, aren't you?

LOL. But you may be right. This Windows 8 could be the slow death of the PC unless developers really jump ship and start supporting Linux en masse.

Beware of Apple's newfound success though: if MacOS steals a bunch of market-share, you know malware authors will shift gears and start targeting it in earnest, don't you?

I know alot of Mac owners don't even bother with anti-virus solutions because Mac viruses are so rare, but that could soon change...

[wtmusic]

179. A lot of investors point to competition from Android and tablet makers

as putting a limit on Apple's upside for the near term. I agree that iPhone/iPad sales, without some new miracle feature, will probably slow. Those same people argue that desktops will soon be dinosaurs, without much to back it up (that I've seen).

As far as desktops go, for Apple the sky's the limit.

[onehandle]

181. Bookmarked. nt

[Zalatix]

75. Does Windows 8 preclude the installation of Linux via dual boot?

[joshcryer]

78. No, they wouldn't even dare try that due to the anti-trust implications.

Hell if you built a "Hackintosh" you could probably install OSX, Windows, and Linux on the same machine. If you had the smarts anyhow.

[Zalatix]

82. Ah I was hearing that they were trying to do that with Windows 8.

Another reason to vote straight Dem ticket - the GOP is always eyeing the dismantling of anti-trust legislation.

[joshcryer]

84. They did that with BeOS, BeOS settled out of court (sadly!), they haven't tried it since.

Had BeOS pursued it they could've sunk Microsoft, imo. Or at least kept their company going for many years after.

Sadly the company went under and most everyone was fired and as it stands now the BeOS community is small trying to make the best of things.

Shame, that.

Fight next time! If you know you're the victor, fight!

[hobbit709]

122. Actually they were trying that with the new EFI BIOS on the motherboards

They wanted to lock out any nonMS OS from working.

[Zalatix]

124. If I recall EFI correctly, that's just BEGGING for a virus to reduce the machine to a brick. n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

188. I can't imagine any MB manufacturer being dumb enough to go for that without making M$

buy them outright. The margins in that business make a razor look fat and using a BIOS chip that only accepts one OS is simply suicide.

[SheilaT]

80. The truly scary thing about the entire thread here is

how little of it I actually understand.

I've been using computers since 1969, although as a user only, not a programmer, not an IT person. It makes me crazy, beyond crazy, makes me want to do truly terrible things to Bill Gates and Steve Jobs is lucky he's beyond harming at this point.

They've made them more and more complicated, less and less user-friendly over time. I keep on saying, that to find out if an OS is actually, really, honestly, user friendly, they should ask their grandmother's to try them. If someone over the age of 60 who is not already a computer professional can figure out how to use the thing, then it's good to go. Oh, and with each new version, find a new grandmother, one who hasn't already gotten real good at computers.

I don't understand why they can't be as simple as a toaster. Or a toaster oven. Or my stick shift car. The level of complexity is simply not needed for the vast majority of users. I am so sorry that I no longer have Windows 98. That was pretty easy. I might look into a Mac the next time I need to replace a computer. My one question, and surely someone here knows the answer, would be: can everything I currently have on Windows, such as my novel-in-progress, be transferred to a Mac?

[MADem]

104. Ha--I resemble many of those remarks!

Another stick shift fan--we're like dinosaurs; none of the young kids seem interested in learning how to drive 'em...kinda sucks when you've got a bunch of kids at the house for a holiday or what-have-you and not one knows how to move the damn car!

[Surya Gayatri]

105. What you said, Sheila! From a 67-year-old "user only, not IT person"!

Still desperately hanging on to my 8-year-old PC running Win XP in order to avoid doing battle with any of the more recent versions.

Your maxim, "If someone over the age of 60 who is not already a computer professional can figure out how to use the thing, then it's good to go...", should be SOP for the whole industry.

[mainer]

116. "Passed The Grandmother Test" should be affixed to every computer

if they want to sell it.

[TransitJohn]

123. Those type of users don't really need computers, anyway, and should be quite comfortable

Last edited Sat Oct 27, 2012, 10:11 AM - Edit history (1)

checking email and Facebook on a cell phone or tablet (this is exactly what Windows 8 is all about).

[WinkyDink]

127. WTH?! "Those people"?! How about using Google? Reading news on line? BTW: Be glad you have youthful

eyesight (I'm willing to wager).

[TransitJohn]

133. No, I'm 40 wearing bifocals

I wasn't talking about age, but type of use. I can see where my post was taken that way, though. Sorry for inelegant phrasing.

[SheilaT]

150. My cell phone doesn't do email.

I have as basic a cell phone as I can possibly get, and my huge fear is that someday I will be forced into a "smart" phone, which I absolutely don't want. Just as I fear that someday I will no longer be able to buy a car with a manual transmission.

Here's the deal. I like being in control of certain things. That's why I drive a stick. That's why I know I do not need a computer with 87,000 applications that I'll never ever use. Oh, and the need to download 16,000 additional apps just to make the computer work the way you want it -- does anyone else think there's something wrong here?

What if when you bought a car you had to go to a separate store to get the first set of tires. And then, after a couple of months the windows no longer operated, so you needed to order new windows from somewhere. And when the arrive, you can't quite figure out just how to install them, so now you need to hire someone who can do that. Meanwhile, it's the middle of winter, you live in northern Minnesota, or it's the middle of the rainy season wherever you live, and in both cases the windows are down this whole time.

And then, a few years after you buy the car they change the grooves in the road, so you need to buy new tires to fit those grooves. You sigh and do that. Then, six months later they change the grooves not only no longer fit the new tires you bought, but the new tires you now need won't fit on your current car.

If cars and highways were designed like computers, people would understand the insanity of it all.

[bettyellen]

130. Macs are dead easy, very intuitive interface. And when you get one, they can help you with data

transfer. Heck, you can out your book on a memory card and transfer it easily yourself.

[2ndAmForComputers]

147. When I tried to use a Mac, I didn't find it any easier than Linux.

Or than Windows 7, for that matter.

Icons look different. Applications are organized different. There's some animated stuff and some stuff that's transparent. Meh.

It's just another OS. Not worth any buzz.

[bettyellen]

160. I've heard great things about Linux, but my Dell Windows 7 work laptop suck compared to my Mac

I needed a lot more training than I ever did for my Macs- because they were easier to just figure out, and I waste so much more time resolving errors, viruses and glitches than I ever did with Mac. My boss thought she;d have to hire someone to set up her home system when she switched to Mac. The techie said, you don't need me- it's easy. Gave his number in case she hit any problems. She didn'tt, and loves it.

I cringe every time they update the system at work. I use a remote server on my Mac and its so much faster and trouble free than the same programs used on my stupid Dell. My time is precious, and it's well worth it spending a few hundred more (at most) every five years.

Im not a techie and need something that works well out of the box, not something I have to cobble together. If you're a hobbyist piecing together and tweaking a system is surely a cheapest option. I am not. If you want a trouble free experience and not spend a lot of time and money on extras and serving, go buy a Mac. They have the highest marks from users for a reason.

[bemildred]

134. They desperately want to avoid being part of the commodity market, that's why.

Hence more and more marketing cruft piled higher and higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruft

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Put it in word or rtf format

Yup.

I work in a multiple OS home.

I write in a MAC and print from a PC.

[wtmusic]

182. Assuming your novel is in Microsoft Word

it would be no problem at all (available for Mac).

There is a learning curve to switching to Macs, a lot of the features are found in different places or use different names. But they've been very consistent over the years and unlike Microsoft, they don't make arbitrary, confusing "improvements" without a damn good reason.

I know probably 30 people who have switched and exactly one has regretted it (I don't even understand exactly why). Here's a good place to start:

http://www.apple.com/support/switch101/

[janx]

194. Many years ago, I used both.

I have to buy a new computer within the next year or so, and I might well go with a Mac. They're more expensive. Do they last longer?

The confusing improvements you mention--that is certainly true. I have a droid; I don't need a computer to replace it.

One of the craziest things about Microsoft: their Microsoft Word upgrades. Back in the 90s, I used Word as a word processing program and used Quark Xpress for layout. After that, Word tried to be everything: word processing, page layout, graphics, etc.. What a load of trash!

Thanks for posting that link.

[wtmusic]

197. I've heard of Mac hardware going bad

but I've never had that experience - for all practical purposes they last indefinitely (or until you decide you want a faster, newer model).

Word is the victim of a syndrome known in the software biz as "creeping featurism" - features are added, often of dubious value, without fixing or streamlining existing features that customers use every day. Nonetheless, it's been the de facto standard for word processing for over two decades, and that and Excel I think are Microsoft's best products.

Even though Macs are more expensive, I recommend going with the fastest model you can afford. Over the life of the computer your time saved will be well worth the difference.

Good luck!

[NuttyFluffers]

220. my 70+ year old parents made the Mac switch over 7 years ago

best thing i've ever done for them. they even get adventurous now and try new things on their machines -- such as trying to scan old film slides and negatives (RX500 Epson printer) and then try to fix the image on iPhoto (yes, not the best, but more tools than they could ever want or need).

i still have a few Automator programs running in the background, like ones to clean up their desktop and put things in folders, or routinely reset Safari (scared about identity theft), etc. that along with the monthly auto mal/ad/virus scan and they're quite happy in their little playground.

it's the first time in my life that i've seen them feel comfortable with these machines that they actively want to pick up and use them. when the interface receded to the point that it became just another tool they warmed up completely. i can't put a price on how thankful i am for that.

about converting everything? you normally should be able to convert almost all of it. some games won't run without an emulator, but most other files should be fine. if you have any deeper questions there's plenty in the Mac forum group here.

for example, your novel should be read by Textedit or Pages as they have capacity to read several MS Word formats. there might be some formatting errors, depending on how large your file is. if you are particularly cautious create another save of the file in a different format (like unicode) just in case to see if that'll open: (open .doc> go to File> select Save As> go to File Type> open options and select Unicode or similar option> continue with Save).

[intaglio]

81. Even numbered Windows issue = rubbish

Windows 9 in 18 months will be good

[Live and Learn]

85. One of the things I truly hate about Microsoft is how they think

simply hiding all the features from previous users makes it a better version. Of course, they do benefit from the training costs of all those previous users.

[Emillereid]

107. Take it back and buy a Mac - they are worth the extra money!

[onehandle]

117. Studies show over and over that it's not more expensive in the long run.

And there are hundreds of Apple Stores to get free tech support from. Just one of the reasons that Apple is #1 in customer satisfaction.

[whistler162]

154. and remember to buy you Monster Dr. Dre Beats

because as we all know the more expensive it is the better it is!

[bowens43]

110. stop buying software and operating systems....

Use Linux and open source. Better, more secure.easier and absolutly free....

Microshaft would be the devil if there was one and apple isn't much better

[L0oniX]

216. You'd think people would at least try a live dvd of Ubuntu or something like it.

[modem77]

111. After looking at Windows 8 on a laptop yesterday I decided to buy a Macbook Air

Switching to Apple after 25 years of using PC.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

126. I used to like windows XP better

[hedgehog]

137. I'm still trying to find all my Excel functions on Windows XP!

[Jersey Devil]

139. Tried the Win8 preview free from Microsoft and hated it - don't buy unless you have a touch screen

I created a separate partitition and duel booted Win8 for several months. This OS is for tablets and touch screens. It does NOT offer any advantages imo unless you have a touch screen monitor. If you don't then navigation is next to impossible with a mouse.

[Soundman]

140. Here here, for the Mac

When I bought my latest mixer earlier this year I was exited to to do remote control mixing. After 2 or three trips to micro center, I was finally able to get my pc to work some of the time, neither of my two, yes two, laptops would work ever. Said screw it bought a slightly older MacBook from a guy who had bought it to record with, but didn't really understand interfacing. I remember him saying good luck in such a way I was worrying that he had sold me something he knew was a lemon. Got the thing home, downloaded the software hooked up the cable and viola, instant success. I have never looked back. I also remember vividly switching over to windows 7 and the new (it really, really, no seriously it really works this time) transfer wizard. It took all 6k plus of my photos and put the folders in a time line, only problem, my cameras have never held a date code after the battery dies, so my photos are beyond sorting at this point.

Of course being an endless tweaked of things, I have found the Mac stuff freeking boring. Nothing to do. The backups are automatic, and don't interfere with what I am doing. And I don't miss even a little the booting and waiting on endless updates before I can sit down and get to work. Lately I wonder if Microsoft and their software cohorts could send me text message when my pc is ready to be used uninterrupted.

The other night during a recording session I showed a guy, that I was running the recording program, remote mixer, and iTunes, simultaneously, all three being remotely controlled from my ipad, with no fear of crashing, ha try that on a pc. I spent a decade of fear with my pc praying that some un foreseen piece of hardware would not make an Irq request and crash me during a session.

Of course I will have to buy a copy of 8. It's a self loathing thing you see.

[Logical]

146. New technology is hard for some people.

[DainBramaged]

151. Told ya

[cliffordu]

157. Ah, yes, another POS release from M$

Windoze:

64 bit fix for a
32 bit hack to a
16 bit kludge of an
8 bit operating system by a
2 bit company that
cannot handle
1 bit of competition.

[blazeKing]

165. XP still does everything Vista, 7 and 8 can do

Unless maybe you are a corporation or something.


I don't blame Microsoft though, their shareholders demand new products to milk money off the American people.

[CabCurious]

174. Not true. Win 7 is without a doubt their best OS

It's like XP suped up.

[Blue_In_AK]

221. I like Win 7, too.

It took a little getting used to after nine years of XP, but there are a lot of features I really like.

[Sancho]

166. I am using a 2008 Imac now, and I'll buy another one in Dec., my 2012 PC just sits there lonely...

I played with W-8 just out of curiosity, but it was not very intuitive to me.

The Imac is simply a better machine and OS X is a better system.

[nadinbrzezinski]

173. I played with WIN 8 at the store today

as a tablet interface (they had both) it is ok... as a computer interface... what the hell were they thinking?

I was looking at tablets. I will need to change my IPAD 1 soon and to be honest, I think IPAD...

Windows, no not really, though it could run scrivener... so that is possible

the android ones, none really convinced me for the record.

[CabCurious]

176. That's exactly it on the head. ALL computers are moving towards tablet interfaces...

And Win8 is MS taking a brave dive away from traditional desktops as the standard.

Within 2-3 years, most displays will be touch displays. They're trying to engage in shock therapy for us, but it clearly isn't appreciated.

[nadinbrzezinski]

177. It will take some time to get used to it

since it is somewhat -ish different than either Android or MAC... (which for the record functionally work the same for the user, yes have both)

[tabasco]

178. I'm sick and fucking tired of these fuckers

foisting some new OS on us every two years or so. Computers have become so necessary, these fucking companies should be regulated like utilities, so they stop gouging us and blackmailing us with non-support.

[randome]

229. They ARE necessary. You're right.

[union_maid]

180. Isn't this what MS always does?

People seem to be happy enough with Windows 7. I recently got new computers at home and at work with Windows 7. It seems fine and not earthshaking or anything. But doesn't MS always release a really crap OS in between decent ones? Rembember ME? Vista didn't seem to be too well liked either. Never saw it myself but I didn't read or hear too much good about it. So, it just stands to reason that 8 would be problematic and 9 or 10 or whatever they're planning to call it should be decent.

[fascisthunter]

189. nah... it's all an Apple/liberal conspiracy

people should keep buying crap like they do when they vote republican, because propaganda is so much more worth while. And yeah, I'm being sarcastic by affiliating one computer with any political ideology, but the truly brainwashed are those hanging on to garbage that costs them more in the end.

[fascisthunter]

186. don't worry, another upgrade is just over 100 bucks

I'm sure another piece of shit is right around the corner.

[War Horse]

204. I'm using Win 8 with this:

http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

Not bad at all. I pretty much stay away from the "Metro" part.

[justiceischeap]

205. If Win 8 is so bad from a user experience standpoint

does that mean fewer people will be able to upgrade their browsers? I'm a web developer and keep waiting for a decent IE browser to appear. The thing that sucks about a "bad" OS for me is then Windows people stick with older OS' and don't or can't upgrade their browsers.

BTW, I'm a mac user who has Parallels installed running Tiny Win 7. I can't & won't upgrade until browser user stats show me the need to.

[OldEuropean]

206. I hated it too at first

But you have to realize that the "Metro" start page is just a full-screen replacement for the old start menu you are used to, with active content (apps). Basically, Win8 is just Win7 with some minor under-the-hood improvements and a touch device friendly full-screen start menu.

How you launch programs quickly with Win 7? Press Windows key, start typing the program name and press enter on the match.
Guess what? It is the same with Win 8.

The real radical change is the introduction of Windows Runtime API for Metro apps and Windows RT only running on ARM with no compatibility for x32/x64 programs. But for Windows RT to be a real success, MS needs way more apps.

So using Win 8 is actually not really much different from XP or 7, but the constant full-screen switches to the start menu aka Metro are really annoying and a really bad usage concept.

And after all, the metro start menu colors and design just gives me eye cancer... Good contrast for mobile devices, but looks horrible on a normal monitor. Also the dropping of the Aero effects on the regular desktop makes the desktop windows look like it is Win 3.1 again. Hell, it even reminds me of GEOS on the Commodore C64

So, ok to use - but f****ing ugly

But as I don't need the touch device related changes, I would rather trade Metro back for Aero and have the latest boot and memory usage optimizations. Hmm, maybe the memory optimizations are only because they dropped Aero? LOL!

[Hippo_Tron]

212. Windows 95 was the best thing they every made, all downhill from there

[area51]

213. Since other folks have already brought up Linux,

I'll bring up the free alternative of PC-BSD.

[backscatter712]

228. Linux is going to be on the move for the next few years.

One of the biggest things that kept it from wider adoption was the lack of games. Linux gamers did have some, and they could get quite a few Windows games working with WINE.

Now, because the people at Valve are seeing the clusterfuck that is Windows 8 coming, they've ported Steam to Windows, and they're working on porting games like Left 4 Dead to Linux.

On top of that nVidia's been working on fixing up their Linux drivers - they're seeing the coming gamepocalypse, and they want Linux users to run the newest games.

Personally, I'm not touching Windows 8 unless I'm forced to - between the bad UI, and the increasingly dark clouds of DRM and walled gardens that Microsoft is trying to push in place to close the PC platform, Microsoft can suck my balls!