Is anybody asking men, "What if your wife was raped and became pregnant?"

[starroute]

This entire discussion about women becoming pregnant from rape has focused on what would seem to be a hypothetical single woman, dealing with the experience alone, having to decide about abortion, and potentially faced with bearing a child and then having the rapist get visitation rights.

But although that's an appropriate approach to take in the context of a Republican Party that wants to deny women control over their own bodies, in the real world there's likely to be a man who is equally traumatized by the situation -- the husband or boyfriend of the rape victim -- and is struggling with his own grief and anger.

Is anybody out there saying to men: "How would you feel if your wife were raped and became pregnant? Would it increase your feelings of guilt about not having been there to protect her? How would you feel about seeing her belly swell with another man's baby? How would you feel about the child who came into the world as a result? If there was a chance the child was yours, would you insist on DNA testing? And how the results affect your feelings? If you already have children, what would you tell them? Do you think your marriage is strong enough to survive that sort of experience?"

Men, being men, may not necessarily care about what they see as women's issues. But this is also a men's issue, and they ought to be forced to confront it as such.

[seabeyond]

1. i did ask an anti abortion woman this about her daughter. she was aghast that i would say soemthing

like that out loud. didnt address the question on how she would feel. but how she felt about me asking the question.

[Indpndnt]

63. That's the question to ask. Not about the wife, but about the 12 yr. old daughter.

Would either parent watch their daughter suffer like that? Continue to suffer for an entire pregnancy?

That's what they need to be asked. And, like your experience, they'll be aghast at the question. Too bad. Deal with reality, wingnuts.

[Vox Moi]

2. I'm a man who is a person ....

My wife,
My daughter,
My neighbor,
A woman I don't even know.
--------------------------------
I have thought about this and nobody had to force me.

[JustAnotherGen]

3. It's the statement my husband made

At a party last Friday - My wife has been raped, is in a come, and we've found out she's two months pregant? And you think you have a say?

He's from the Calabria Region of Italy - they have a saying there . . You don't 'put words' in a marriage - eveeeeeeeeeer.

[IDoMath]

4. It is NOT a men's issue.

If she wants an abortion, it's her body and she can have an abortion.

My wife doesn't need me to protect her. She is a complete human being capable of protecting herself. And me for that matter.

If she wanted to have it, that might be another issue. being childfree, myself, I don't want kids. I'm ill inclined to raise it. So, again, if she wants it, it is her choice and her issue.

[Pab Sungenis]

8. I think the OP is suggesting

that anti-abortion men might be hesitant to raise the children of the men who raped their wives, and thus would be more supporting if their wives chose to abort.

The other interesting question: if a wife chose not to abort a pregnancy caused by rape, would her husband be supportive of her decision as well?

Men are affected by the decision whether or not to abort. They shouldn't have a veto, but they are affected and should be involved in the discussion.

[IDoMath]

10. *could* not *should*

It is a decision between a woman and who SHE CHOOSES to include. If she chooses not to include her husband that's her choice, for good or ill. Yes, it may have an impact on her marriage. Everything we do has an impact on something.

It's no more my choice than what type of tampon she chooses to use.

[Pab Sungenis]

19. I think we're on the same page.

It's not his decision, but in a marriage the husband should at least be involved in the discussion.

However, you are right. In the end it's the woman's decision and hers alone.

[DefenseLawyer]

5. Do as I say, not as I do.

They would answer your question by telling you that they would love God's precious gift blah blah blah. If it actually happened they would quietly take care of it.

[gollygee]

6. The man is equally traumatized?

I couldn't read past that.

[IDoMath]

11. The only reason I got past that is because..

...I actually missed reading it.

[treestar]

28. The point was approaching right wing men though

Is there anything wrong with using that to talk to people you know are going to only be sympathetic if it affects them? That's how right wingers are.

[lapislzi]

62. I am going to give the OP the benefit of the doubt

and suggest that he/she used a very poor choice of words with that phrase.

But the fact remains that if you are in an intimate relationship of some depth, your partner will be traumatized by a rape. I cannot speak for others, but I am certain that my husband would be beyond horrified and traumatized at the notion of the person he loved most in the world being violated in that manner. Sure, he wouldn't have experienced the actual physical nature of being violated, but the violation occurs at many levels. The raped person gets the worst of it, but there is much more collateral damage to consider.

And, as the non-raped person, the partner has to hold it together for the victim. I would not wish either role on anyone.

[reusrename]

67. I think a man could be equally traumatized by a system that forces her to carry the child.

It's not inconceivable.

[gollygee]

68. Please explain to me how

a woman going through the trauma of rape, and then facing the criminal justice system (which is not always friendly to rape victims) and then being forced to give birth to a child she doesn't want who is a result of rape, is not in every circumstance more traumatized than her husband or boyfriend.

[reusrename]

72. Because she's much stronger than him.

This stuff causes men to go postal. I understand the horror and pain of it are already a huge burden, but adding on top of that the fact that the guy would have to watch helplessly while these monsters continue the torture by forcing his wife to have a baby she doesn't want, that sounds like a perfect recipe for unbridled rage.

I don't think I could stand for it, myself. There would be some other option.

[Doctor_J]

7. Someone asked J. Danforth Quayle III this question

about his daughter. His answer began with, "We hope she would choose life". Of course the dipshit doing the interview didn't fire back with, "So you think it would be her choice?".

I don't think a lot of the right-wing politicians believe that crap. It's just another lie they can tell to get Hate Radio on their side.

[JHB]

53. For J. Danforth Quayle III's daugher, it WOULD be a choice...

...unless it was the family that was insisting on one particular choice, and likely not the one her daddy gives in interviews.

Young Ms. Quayle would have the resources to travel wherever she needed to exercise her choices.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

9. In that case the baby is a gift from Satan. nt

[porphyrian]

12. . n/t

[Myrina]

13. Am I the only one who sees

... the rightward tilt of the entire comversation? We're no longer talking about keeping abortion legal and up to the woman for whatever reason, now we're just trying to hang onto "in cases of rape, incest & health of the mother".

Choice, as a whole, is being gradually stepped away from us. And to me, the issues isn't abortion or not, its about eliminating an individual's choice to make their own decisions ... what other decisions of self-determination are next up in the chopping block after they take this one away?

[gollygee]

14. And then because of how it affects the husbands and boyfriends

who are apparently, based on the OP, "equally traumatized" to the rape victim.

[CTyankee]

15. And how about calling it the "health of the WOMAN," not the "mother" because what if she

has NO intention of becoming a mother?

[IDoMath]

24. How about calling it sovereignty of her body?

We shouldn't even be discussing her health. That's her business and her choice.

[femrap]

39. Maybe we just call

it FREEDOM OF WOMEN.

[SunSeeker]

40. Amen.

[bettyellen]

21. I see it too. Excellent post and follow up comments to it!

[IDoMath]

23. You are not alone

My wife and I have been noticing this for awhile. (BUt then we've been noticing the rightward tilt of the DP for 20 years.) That's why we've chosen to take a hard stand on the issue.

Yep, it kills a child. Tough. It's a woman's decision.
Nope, Dad doesn't get a say. It's a woman's decision.
If my wife got pregnant we would waltz together through the protest line singing "We're off to abort a fetus..." (To the tune of the We're off to see the wizard, OK maybe not the best waltz... we'd figure something out.)

We readily call ourselves pro-abortion.

The left has been fighting a defensive war for 32 years now. All it's done is caused it to lose ground and now you see where we are at.

We need to go on the offensive. Not all of you, just enough of us to present a true radical left that makes the mainstream left look mainstream again.

[femrap]

44. I'd

waltz with you...OK, maybe skip.

I had to go through those throngs of idiots to get to PP. One big dude got right in my face. I told him if he didn't get out of my way, I'd cut his balls off. I slammed my foot on his foot....hard. He moved.

I didn't see him when I came out.

Anyone woman who wants an abortion (minors included) should get one....and my tax dollars will gladly go to paying for that....instead of the killing of people in other countries and our own soldiers.

[IDoMath]

46. Do you want the lyrics?

I wrote the whole song up somewhere...

[femrap]

51. Yes, I

would love to have them.

I wrote lyrics to the Xmas carol with all the 'fa la la la la la' in it:

First line:

Tax the Rich until their eyes bleed
Fa la la la la la la la la....

I enclosed it with my Xmas cards a couple of years ago...none of the recipients are 'rich,' but I guess some of them thought they were.

Geez, isn't Xmas supposed to be about Jesus....the dude who loved the poor and threw the $ changers tables around??? I enjoy pointing out Hypocrisy.

[IDoMath]

57. Here you go - to the tune of "We're off to see the wizard"

We're off to kill a fetus
the fetus that's eating me
Though, it's against the will of your god
for me to kill ba-bies

If men could share the risk we took
we'd find this right in holy book
but we know they fear us cuz we bleeeeed
and really only need them for their seed.
(cloning will soon make them obsolete!)

We're off to kill a fetus
and then we'll have a massage!!!

[femrap]

65. ....

[Texin]

29. I agree. The whole argument is based on a premise that puts rape in a different category

than other violent crimes against persons. For whatever reason that shall forever mystify me, males don't categorize rape as a violent crime in the same manner that they would, say for example, someone coming up behind their wife, daughter, sister, mother, etc. and slugging her in the back of the head with a baseball bat, a hammer, a candlestick, a tire iron or whatever, dragging her behind the bushes and taking her car keys, pocketbook and then going to her car and driving off into the night.

They don't view it the same as if someone came up to them with a drawn gun or a knife and pushed them into an alley and began beating the crap out of them to take their wallet, watch or whatever.

Men - and I am generalizing this - because my perception is that men cannot identify with rape and, therefore, in the back of their minds are suspicious that somehow women are either responsible for the rape (just by see virture of being female I presume) because these poor, weak men just cant resist the sexual urge. And if a woman (or their six year old daughter or 80 year old mom) just fought harder or screamed louder, the randy rapist would just leave 'em alone.

[femrap]

47. +1,000

Welcome to DU.

One dude told me that if he were 'raped,' he'd 'just get over it and so should women.'

[marions ghost]

59. uh, yeah...

you just have to look at the cases that have come out about the catholic church, the sports predators, the boy scouts--to know that's a big fat lie.

I'd love for some of these crap-talkin Repug politicians to get violently, "forcibly raped" while they are trying to fight and yell for help. Guess what, it DOES happen.

They'd change their ideas about god-given "legitimate rape"-- (the real agenda being of course controlling women in general)--pretty quick.

[reusrename]

73. Many of these monsters know exactly what it's about.

Our CIA teaches how systematic rape of a population can be used as a weapon for attaining social control. These are probably some of the same monsters that are picking these teabaggers for elected office. There's got to be a think tank behind all this astroturfing because people don't just naturally devolve like this, do they?

[ProudProgressiveNow]

41. Great insight.

The GOP has moved the center on this issue far to the right!

[Ineeda]

45. You're right.

It's that whole scary 'abortion on demand' thing, as if that's a horrible, unconscionable decision. I fully believe in 'abortion on demand' -- no conditions, no 'what-ifs', no 'needs'. If a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy just because it's fucking Wednesday, she should be able to make that CHOICE. All this need for justification is bullshit.

[Doctor_J]

64. This should be a medical privacy issue

The anti-government types want Clarence Thomas and John Boner to tell doctors what procedures they can & can't perform. And BTW ALL of our discussions have moved to the right. The gun control argument is now basically whether any citizen can own a missile launcher, and if a waiting period for such a purchase is an infringement of his rights.

[moondust]

71. Slowly decriminalizing rape?

How far would they go?

I can't believe any woman would vote for somebody who would smugly do away with her right to reproductive self-determination.

[Myrina]

74. How far would they go?

Women can't vote.
Women can't drive.
Women can't own property.
Women can't travel alone.
Women "need help" choosing higher education fields & are discouraged from historically male ones like law & medicine.
Arranged marriages.

Not too much more of a slippery slope before we get to burka's and Blackstone's laws (women were their husband's property) Ever hear the term 'rule of thumb'? That came from Blackstone. A husband was not to beat his wife with a stick any larger than the width of his thumb. Smaller than that, though, was perfectly acceptable.


Other religions in the world already have these things in place, and not more than 125 years ago, the majority of them were commonplace here in the US, as a matter of 'feminine sensibility'.

Think the Talibornagains don't want to take us back there?

THIS is what worries me.

[nichomachus]

75. Bingo -- give this person a prize

We should be talking about abortion being safe and legal in any situation

[SoCalDem]

76. Advanced record-keeping & HMOs may be partly to "blame"

Think back to when Roe v Wade was passed/upheld

Rich ladies/girls went to their own doctors PRIVATELY...told then what they needed, and it was done.. They paid and went on their way

Prior to passage (when it was illegal), they pretty much did the same, but there were a lot of D & Cs being done for the ever-amorphous reason called "female troubles"..

As a child, I remember many of my Mother's friends having to have a D & C.. I'd be willing to bet that there are many younger women who don't even know of the term or know ANY women who has had one.

Once abortion was legal, there was no need for the term.

POOR WOMEN who needed financial help getting ANY kind of abortion/D&C/whatever have always been at the tip-of-the-spear when it comes to the "argument" for and against.

If a woman can go to a doctor (easily-early-and affordably) to get an abortion (which is legal), there should be NO reason why anyone but herself/her partner(if there is one) and the doctor has ANY reason to ever know about the procedure....BUT when you insert an HMO or federal program into the mess, EVERYONE get to see the stats ...and to create a wedge issue to argue about.

Even as federal payments were stripped away, there is still the issue of the healthcare system that is always inordinately "interested" in "things the ladies do/need".

[Animal Chin]

16. I've never resorted to the line of thinking

that if X happens, I will leave the country.

But yesterday, I did entertain the thought of a hypothetical America that forced a woman to carry her rapist's child.

Immediately, I thought of my 10-year-old daughter, and knew that, yes, I would move to Canada before I would allow my family to live under such a regime.

[forestpath]

17. Anti-choice men would be all for abortion for their OWN wives in that case. Just nobody else's.

[Texin]

32. Because they don't and couldn't even entertain the notion that

their own wives or daughters with their sacred and golden ladyparts could ever be raped.

[bowens43]

18. a conservative in good standing would say

that he would have to divorce her, she must have been asking for it. After all, if it was a legitimate rape she wouldn't be pregnant.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

43. Sadly....

probably true.

[bettyellen]

20. Fucked up premise - lets pander to men who will never give a shit unless...

It happens "to them". Except it happens to women and they'll never be "as traumatized".

Truly disturbing OP.

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. The traumatization is not equal. Poor choice of words. n/t

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

25. Bad things don't happen to Republicans...

...how else can you be a Republican.

It's karma.

[Grammy23]

26. These conversations almost always are made in the abstract. And in that context you get one

answer. Then when it comes down to specifics, you get another. These issues should never be discussed solely in the abstract
because it removes the emotion, the trauma and reality from the discussion. Once you make it about REAL women, it takes on another dimension and is much harder to be dispassionate and academic about it. And the fact is, no matter how hypothetical you make the argument, it is always about REAL women. Ask your friends and co-workers about the issue of rape and any personal experience they have with it. You might be surprised how many of them know from PERSONAL experience what that is about.

The reason the woman who was asked about what she would do if it were her daughter in that situation can't talk about it without being offended or put off is because it IS highly emotionally charged. When it comes down to cases, they know they won't hold the same opinions if it is about someone they know and love. So they just go into a state of denial that it could ever happen to them or someone they know.

[southernyankeebelle]

27. Well in a republican religious household I can see the daddy or the husband telling his

wife or daughter it was her fault to be in the situation in the first place and now you have to live with what you did.

[SoCalDem]

30. I asked it, but other than you and I....bupkis

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021625500

[Sheepshank]

31. would and could you love this child as if it were your own?....

....or after making you wife deliver this child would you make her give it away? There will be a lot of curious people wondering what happened to the baby, baby showers to avert, curious siblings to assuage, nosy friends and neighbors who will all get the sordid details that your wife was raped, rampant rumors (just can't stop that crap). Lovely.

[Texin]

33. Is the assumption that the rape would be kept secret?

Because I can't envision being raped or even knowing someone who has been raped being able to get up and go to work the next day as if nothing had happened. And assuming a rape victim goes through the legal process of getting medical and police assistance from the get go, and the rape becomes public knowledge, how would a rape victim's work colleagues, neighbors, relatives, fellow churchgoers, etc. actually handle the fact that the woman decided to carry a rape baby to term and raise it? Does anyone actually think that these folks would be all down with this? Puhleeze. Give me a break. All these people would be as horrified and gobsmacked as they effin should be.

[gollygee]

34. It wouldn't be their business

She would have a right to choose to carry a baby conceived by rape if she wanted to, and hopefully her community would support her in that choice, or shut the hell up, because it isn't their place to judge her. Only she knows what the best choice is for her - abortion, adoption, or raising the baby herself.

[Sheepshank]

38. There is surely a supporty system...then there are the gawkers

I think sometimes people have no sense of boundaries.

[Swede Atlanta]

35. I think in most states.......

if she is married the child will be deemed to be that of the husband unless you go through the process of doing DNA testing. And then what? If the rapist has been caught exactly what will you do? Assuming they are convicted there will be no child support and if you do DNA testing you could end up with a child in your home that legally is deemed not to be your own.

This is a very good question......and don't ask the question just as it relates to a wife. This could be a daughter, sister, niece, girlfriend, etc.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. Equally traumatized? What the fuck?

I would be pretty fucked up if I found out my wife was raped, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be EQUALLY traumatized, as the person who, you know, actually suffered the physical violation of another human by force, against her wishes, for ego, power, terror, and whatever else the fuck rapists get off on.

What a stupid article.

Yes, this is a conversation men need to have, but I think it should be centered on being all grown up big boys, and trusting the women we love to do what is right for their own bodies. (And the women we don't even know, etc)

What the hell is this 'equally traumatized' bullshit? I mean, I don't even

[SheilaT]

37. Here are the questions that should be asked of these idiots.

Have you ever been raped?

Did you get pregnant?

Were you at risk of getting pregnant?

Men often downplay the awfulness of a woman being raped, but they have a complete horror of being raped by another man, say in prison. Men will constantly say that a woman has "asked for it" by the way she dressed or by being out late at night, or that if she'd fought hard enough it couldn't have happened. Then, some few of them find themselves in a situation where they have not control, and they are raped by other men. Which is a terrible, terrible thing. But at least these men aren't at any risk of getting pregnant and having to bear an unwanted baby.

To me, the only anti-abortion position is this one: If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one.

[lunatica]

52. My sentiments exactly

[SunSeeker]

42. If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. nt

[femrap]

49. wasn't it

Gloria Steinem who said that? She was on 'Hardball' Monday night. It was so good to see her. Last time was 2004 in person in Cincy. She's from Toledo and knew that OH was crucial.

She is much angrier now than she was then....of course this was before the Election was stolen in Ohio.

[SunSeeker]

61. Gloria Steinem's lawyer, the irrepressible Florynce Kennedy, said that.

Quotes from the late great Flo Kennedy:

• The biggest sin is sitting on your ass.

• Don't agonize, organize.

• When you want to get to the suites, start in the streets.

• I’m just a loud-mouthed middle-aged colored lady with a fused spine and three feet of intestines missing and a lot of people think I’m crazy. Maybe you do too, but I never stop to wonder why I’m not like other people. The mystery to me is why more people aren’t like me.

• If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

• There are very few jobs that actually require a penis or vagina. All other jobs should be open to everybody.

• Freedom is like taking a bath: You got to keep doing it every day.

• Countermovements among racists and sexists and nazifiers are just as relentless as dirt on a coffee table. . . . Every housewife knows that if you don't sooner or later dust . . . the whole place will be dirty again.

• You've got to rattle your cage door. You've got to let them know that you're in there, and that you want out. Make noise. Cause trouble. You may not win right away, but you'll sure have a lot more fun.

• Our parents had us so convinced we were precious that by the time I found out I was nothing, it was already too late--I knew I was something.

• The whole concept of authority is what I think Women's Lib and Black liberation is about. The reason I have a pathological attitude toward authority, is because my parents did not establish their own authority, and did not require us to see the government, our teachers, or any of these people as unquestionable authority.

• Are you the alternative? (response to heckler asking if she was a lesbian)

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/quotes/a/Florynce-Kennedy-quotes.htm

[femrap]

66. Those were the days

when women spoke out. Flo was a grand woman.

Now, everyone is too polite or possibly scared to speak up.

We're just treading water, barely.

I just saw the new RobMe yard sign:

Romney
Ryan
Rape

I, however, might have said 'Rapists,' but there'd be a jury and all.

[lued]

48. the whole if raped can have an abortion is very dangerous to males

women should be able to have an abortion without having to give any reason.

even if there's a clause that permits abortions in the case of rape, there's a huge potential for abuse there. false accusations of rape would emerge and innocent males would be seriously damaged, their reputations and potentially even be sentenced to prison, because a woman refuses to have a baby or get an abortion in a back alley where she'd be risking her life.

when you try to take half of the population back to the dark ages, you drag everyone along.

[femrap]

50. Welcome

to DU. I've been talking about The Dark Ages a lot lately because that seems where we're headed.

And I've been thinking about Canada as well...but I don't think they're as friendly as they used to be about letting Americans move there.

[MadrasT]

54. I stopped right at "equally traumatized".

I don't fucking think so.

[WinkyDink]

55. Look, any man asked this question will pretend to be Sir Galahad. The law should not be about

"How would the husband feel?"

[B Calm]

56. Republican men would force her to have

the unwanted child, then they would file for divorce, and then after a DNA blood test they would deny the ex wife child support payments.

[Arugula Latte]

58. Bingo.

[Rozlee]

60. A lot of it is questioning the morals of the rape victim.

Phyllis Schafly once said that "good girls" don't get raped. I saw this in my own hometown here in Texas when my of my sister's classmates was raped, stabbed and left for dead by a known sex offender. She was an honor student, but somehow, it was her fault because she was always "walking the streets" and there were rumors that she'd gone "all the way" with one of her previous boyfriends. Stupid shit. She walked to and from school because the bus didn't go all the way to her home and her parents didn't have an extra car to pick her up, just like several other kids did. And gossip about her was high school mean girl crap. But, women are still blamed, especially by conservatives, for getting sexually assaulted. I've seen it with women who complain about sexual harassment in the workplace. They dress too provocative, they send out "signals," they flirt, then they get all worked up when men take them up on their "offers." Despite the progress we've made in awareness of violence against women, too many still think women bring such violence on themselves. I don't even believe that for conservatives, it's the sanctity of life that matters so much as it is the urge to force women to bear children as living scarlett letters.

[quaker bill]

69. When it happened to me

I paid for the termination she chose.

[arely staircase]

70. how does one say something

"to men."

and why do you think it needs saying? you think those yahoo repubs represent "men?"