Believe What You Will About This Anti-Romney Hidden-Camera Mormon Ritual Footage

[highplainsdem]

From Hypervocal.com, "Believe What You Will About This Anti-Romney Hidden-Camera Mormon Ritual Footage":

http://hypervocal.com/politics/2012/hidden-camera-mormon-footage/

Based on the great deal of secrecy in which Mitt Romney shrouds his religion, you might suspect there’s some stuff in there that’s weirder than the kooky underpants.

This “secret footage,” allegedly filmed at a Mormon temple ceremony, shows rituals of baptism (here, a Hispanic child is a stand-in for dead Latina women, dunked in holy water to “convert” the deceased to Mormonism) and what’s called “endowment,” the use of secret handshakes and passwords to speak with God through a veil.

It’s unusual, sure. But “usual” is a funny term when you’re talking about ceremonies of any religion. The video’s producers (who are unabashedly critical of Romney) claim that Mormonism requires believers to “build up the Kingdom of God on Earth” — not the best thing for the separation of church and state.

But they also claim the religion is borderline anti-American: “During the time of Mitt Romney’s parents and grandparents, the ritual contained a secret oath of vengeance against the USA for the murders of Mormon prophets Hyrum and Joseph Smith.”

-snip-

When you don’t pre-empt criticism, you invite others to craft their own narrative about you and your beliefs — which is exactly what this video does. But it’s too early to tell if this will do any damage. Let’s see if it goes around.

[slackmaster]

1. Spying on people and posting videos of them on the Web without permission isn't kosher

[highplainsdem]

4. That objection would also apply to the "47%" fundraiser video.

[leveymg]

13. No. Romney is a public figure and that was a political fundraiser. No expectation of privacy.

Secreting a camcorder inside a church particularly where those observed are private individuals engaged in constitutionally protected activities, however, is something else. It appears to me to be a clear violation of privacy.

[justiceischeap]

20. So, according to your argument President Obama

shouldn't have had the Rev. Wright video associated with him either. It was religious in nature, just as this video is. Just because it wasn't filmed in "secret" doesn't make it any less an invasion of privacy according to your standards.

Unfortunately, religion has become a standard we hold our politicians to. We did it with President Obama, we did it with Sarah Palin, yet, the media ISN'T doing it with RMoney. Voters have a right to know what happens in a BISHOP's church. RMoney was a Bishop in MA, that means he wasn't just an attendee of his church, he was very much involved in the inner-workings and the Mormon religion has some very odd beliefs compared to other religions that we hold our politicians to a standard. Even though it's unconstitutional to do so, it's still done. What saves Mittens from so much scrutiny is that what happens in the Temple is a lot like Vegas, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas... or another example is the secrecy associated with Freemasons.

The electorate has a right to know because a devote Mormon is supposed to answer to his Prophet first and everyone else second... which includes the American citizens. Personally, I want to know if a Presidential candidate holds those beliefs.

[leveymg]

21. RMoney was doing the talking in the $-Dinner video during a political campaign fundraiser. Fairgame

Not so much what other people say in church during a religious ceremony, regardless of whether a public figure is present. If no law is broken, and there isn't some sort of shocking to the conscience misconduct or breach of public trust -- even public figures have a zone of privacy that extends to religious ceremonies.

The concept of religious sanctuary should generally be respected.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. And 'baptism of the dead' by proxy is Kosher?

Is the deal 'we get to do secret things to your loved ones, but if you seek to find out what we do, that's not kosher'?
Hard to follow that logic.

[slackmaster]

22. Red Herring

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

[leveymg]

2. From what you've described, there's nothing really worth intruding to see here. Romney is a public

figure, and he had no reasonable expectation of privacy in his political remarks to the gathering of high-dollar supporters.

This is something else. I'll pass clicking that link, thank you.

[Barack_America]

6. The video isn't about Romney.

LDS was a secret religion long before he ran for President.

And, even if the video were about Romney (i.e. showing him practicing); this man is running for President and is vowing to return "God" to government. Do the American people not deserve to understand what that would mean. Romney is passing his religion off as "basically" Christian. It is not.

[highplainsdem]

7. Romney is a public figure who has held important official roles in his church, which he's been

very secretive about.

As I posted here some time back, he told a Mormon woman in Massachusetts that he was making pro-choice statements after clearing it with the church:

"Romney said in '94 that 'in Salt Lake City, they told me it was okay' to be pro-choice in liberal MA"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021320544


Under the circumstances, I don't see anything at all odd or "intrusive" about wanting to know more about his faith.

Which IMO should include the temple rituals and the vows Mormons make.

[leveymg]

11. There's nothing in that video you can't read about elsewhere, if understanding is the point

There are aspects of all religious ritual that may appear bizarre and upsetting to outsiders. I believe that everyone is entitled to privacy in such places and circumstances.

BTW: I agree strongly with SOCAS, but don't find anything objectionable in itself that most American politicians have religious beliefs.

[riderinthestorm]

9. The separation of church and state is a US Constitutional matter. The video demonstrates how

badly the Mormon theology would violate that line.

The rituals and vows are creepy on the most superficial level but on a deeper level are very disturbing to our constitutional values.

[highplainsdem]

10. +1,000

[Fresh_Start]

3. revenge on the united states is a bit creepy

there's quite a bit of real creepy in this video

[leveymg]

12. Can someone please link a source about the alleged Mormon plan to seek "revenge against the US".

Thnx.

[riderinthestorm]

14. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_vengeance

Wonder if this is like polygamy - widely practiced but officially condemned.

[leveymg]

17. According to the same source, that oath was removed from the Mormon rituals in 1930.

Removal from Endowment
Main article: Good Neighbor policy (LDS Church)

Beginning in 1919, LDS Church president Heber J. Grant appointed a committee charged with revising the endowment ceremony, which was done under the direction of Apostle George F. Richards from 1921 to 1929. Richards revised the ceremony to eliminate the oath of vengeance, and the revision was formally implemented in the early 1930s.[12]

Never thought I'd be in the position where I felt compelled to defend RMoney or Mormons, but this seems like something historical that isn't relevant today. If someone knows otherwise, please let us know.

[riderinthestorm]

18. And polygamy was banned in 1889 (yet its still widely practiced). The Oath is on the video

which you don't want to watch.

[leveymg]

19. Are people swearing revenge against the US in the video? Which Mormon Temple is this?

[riderinthestorm]

23. They appear to be. I have no idea. And watch the video instead of condemning the rest of us who have

as crassly participating in some kind of privacy violation.

Clearly you want to condemn us for watching the video rather than condemning what's on the video. Since you haven't watched it, I'd say you are in a problematic position. There's some troubling and disturbing stuff on it. This is stuff Mitt and Ann Rmoney deeply believe. Since its now in public you can either watch and comment on the content or continue to try and make this about a privacy violation.

[leveymg]

24. If Mitt Romney is on that tape, I'll watch it. If other Mormons continue to swear an oath of

revenge against the US, I'll talk about that and look into it further.

If this oath is still widespread among Mormons, then there's something significant here that people should know more about. It's worth following up on, and I am open to any evidence that shows this is anything other than an isolated instance. If there's evidence this is not just an isolated case, then I'll look at the tape, and may even repost it.

For those who think this is significant, I urge you to do some real digging and come back to this thread with what you've found.

[riderinthestorm]

25. Yes but then of course we'd have to watch MORE tapes of MORE people in these rituals

which of course you'll then roundly scold us all AGAIN of being big jerks for this terrible invasion of privacy....

[leveymg]

26. If you can find another tape or other evidence that this oath is still sworn by mainstream

Mormons, I'll do more than just look at it.

[riderinthestorm]

27. Well don't hold your breath. Most cult members are so deeply brainwashed

and this tape is so clearly a violation of the secrecy of the Mormon temples, I'm going to guess its going to be a long time before we find another surfacing.

I may be wrong.

[Fresh_Start]

15. its on the vid....has to do with Mormon's blaming the US for the death of their founder

google is your friend.

[Generic Other]

5. Do Mormons' alarming superstitions and secret plans undermine national security?

This was written some years ago and warns of the plan to elect a Mormon white horse:

"Mormon Plan for America"

“…This mysterious priesthood elder would somehow seize control of the US government to prevent the total abrogation of the Constitution. He would assume total power and create an LDS “Kingdom” in America. At that time, this “one mighty and strong” would be proclaimed the new “Prophet “ (First President) of the LDS church and would also be president of the United States. Thus, he would wield both supreme political power of the most powerful nation on earth and also be the “Prophet, Seer and Revelator” (12) of the LDS Church.

“At the same time, through the vast corporate and agricultural holdings of the LDS Church (through its various subsidiaries), he would have the power to either feed the world or with-hold food from the world. The implication is that getting food would be dependent on being obedient to the United Order…. (14).”

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2226.cfm

Wishful thinking? Or a plan?

[Poll_Blind]

16. The first comment on Reddit says it all:

Here:

As an orthodox Jew until I was 18, I was forced to swing a live screaming chicken around my head every year to atone for my sins. Nothing shocks me now.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that- chicken-swinging isn't in the Torah anywhere AFAIK- but the sentiment is kinda spot on.

At the moment, I can only recall having ever had a bad experience with two Mormons. Missionaries who threw a quarter at me (they'd found on the ground) for asking them to leave my property. Every Mormon I've ever worked with or interacted with otherwise, at least thinking about it now, has seemed to genuinely be a good and true person. Which is maybe like a dozen people in my life? One of them, I could tell the wheels were turning behind the eyes but still seemed like a decent guy.

However, I cannot heap enough scorn on some of the prominent personalities and beliefs of "original" Mormonism. Charlatans and liars and, sometimes, butchers of the innocent.

While I personally do not equate Mormonism with the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), I have wondered on occasion about what I would think about them if I had more first-hand accounts about their founding personalities. Many of them already are dodgy from accounts of their actions from the holy books, themselves.

I suppose that's really a hypothetical that will never be answered and beside the point.

PB