General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMormonism is no weirder than any other mainstream religion. Yes it is.
First of all, it's uniquely American. It arose out of the fertile ground of America's Second Great Awakening which in turn was a response to what was seen by many as the 'ungodly' Enlightenment. As a religion, it contains such unique American qualities as a belief in exceptionalism and expansionism. It's strong proselytizing can be tied to both. As much as conformity plays a role, so too does 'rugged individualism'. How else does one explain the concept that after death righteous man becomes a god and is bequeathed his own planet upon which he rules?
Let's move on to the golden tablets and the angel Moroni- and remember this is the 19th century, no 4,000 B.C. or 1 CE. Sure there are a lot of incredible tales in the Old Testament and the New, but none is more infantile, less of a parable than the golden tablets. and that too is uniquely American. Christianity is content to rest on scrolls of papyri and powerful words and ideas. Not so with the Golden Tablets- and it's significant that they're on gold, that no one ever saw them except for eight devotees of Smith. There were newspapers in the 1820. And don't forget the "seeing stone" that enabled young Joe to translate them.
The Book of Mormon itself, is a magpie version of a religion. A bit of this, a dash of that.
The LDS church, due to its antecedents and the nature of its make-up is far more reliant upon secrecy and ritual than main stream Christian denominations. How could it not be?
These are just points, there are many more.
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SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)It's about explaining death
Humans are the only beings who KNOW they will die, and the ones they love will die also.
Once humans evolved to the point where they put down roots, and no longer buried their dead along the trail (or left them where they died) as they wandered, they created rituals and beliefs of the "better place". The burial sites became a place where they could go and feel close to the departed ones.
It's comforting to feel that the beloved ones who died, are being "cared for" after their death.
Myths/religions do this for people.
Being "watched over" also can excuse lots of misdeeds, and explain away a lot too.
Ilsa
(61,698 posts)Like a cult, the LDS church tries to keep its membership intact, using pressure from family, peers, etc. In Christian denominations, no one comes after you if you decide to leave.
ThomThom
(1,486 posts)they turn them out so there are more young girls for the old guys
more so when they could have multiple wives
Many unworthy males have been sent packing.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)
retread
(3,763 posts)Daemonaquila
(1,712 posts)And Islam. And Judaism. And just about every other major religion.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)...Christianity does NOT teach domonionism over people in ANY way AT ALL.
Also, dominionsim does NOT end and begin with the right...Germans were dominionistic in their attitudes also, whatever it took ...hook or crook....they were going to rule the Earth.
IDoMath
(404 posts)...but I can find plenty of dominionists around here. And you might try asking people throughout history and around the world who have faced christian dominionism first hand. In my experience there are as many different versions of christianity as there are christians.
LuvNewcastle
(16,855 posts)Most Mormons aren't special enough to go to the temple and go through the secret rituals. That's reserved for an elite group of Mormons who are sworn to secrecy about what goes on there. The LDS church owns several companies and gets 10% of its members incomes yet it still doesn't have to pay taxes because it calls itself a religion. It's a right wing wet dream.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)with the deity of their own choosing, they claim some kind of exceptionalist social status and set themselves apart from the rst of society. Like they are too good and holy to have to engage in the muck of life's social intercourse and responsibilities, while they "secretly" engage in exactly those activities.
They are dishonest and liars on their faces. How people allow themselves to deny this and be deceived century after century is an amazing feat of social engineering and mind control.
redgreenandblue
(2,088 posts)The motives of Joseph Smith were the same as those of L. Ron Hubbard. He was a con-artist, and Mormonism was just the latest of a series of scams that he ran to make a profit. He created works of fiction and sold them as revelations.
cali
(114,904 posts)but I think there are significant differences too. It's amusing that one of mittwit's favorite books is L. Ron Hubbard's "Battlefield Earth".
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)redgreenandblue
(2,088 posts)I guess religious "prophets" come in two types:
1. Con-artists,
2. People who believe what they are saying for various reasons ranging from mental illness, epileptic visions and drug use to cultural bias.
Muhammed likely was the later. Joseph Smith was the former.
jsr
(7,712 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)
Turborama
(22,109 posts)Jesus paid a quick visit to America? GTFOOH!
It makes as much sense as father christmas' ability to deliver presents to children all over the world in one night.
Everyone knows reindeer can't fly that fast!
That's been blatantly added to try and add some validity to this new "American religion".
Like the hybrid games of football and baseball were invented to give America it's own sports, someone saw a huge gap in the market and created America's own hybrid "religion".
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Nazareth guy from 2,000 years ago who was born from a young virgin the sky god knocked up coming back to the Earth soon to save the ones who believe. Yes, those Christians are used to believing such rational dogma how could they take those silly Mormons seriously?
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)This is a good quick summary of the occult and Freemason influence re. Joseph Smith--
The evidence of Joseph Smith's close connection to occultism and Freemasonry, and how this influenced the origin and development of the LDS Church is not well known outside of scholarly circles. This article summarizes the evidence for Joseph's personal involvement in both Freemasonry and occultism, and their influence on the Mormon religion:
http://mit.irr.org/occultic-and-masonic-influence-in-early-mormonism
eShirl
(18,503 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)I guess if you want to go through life on that kind of simplistic basis, it's OK.
I think the idea of religion is rooted in science, personally. I find science interesting. People study religions and cults. It's fascinating material. There are a lot of facets to examine and research I wrote about what makes Mormonism such a uniquely American religion, which I think is key to understanding it in context.
eShirl
(18,503 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)
Rooted in science insomuch as, hmm, I wonder why fire is shooting out of that mountaintop? Maybe I'll talk to the older folk around here and see if they know. Oh, we didn't slaughter a goat on a full moon last month. Shit, we should be sure to pass that down to our kids
cali
(114,904 posts)hardly a novel thought among scientists, genius.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)is rooted in science...
Marr
(20,317 posts)Of course people find order and ritual to be reassuring. That doesn't mean their self-imposed order is actually *real*.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)" It's as weird as the idea of religion. .."
Of philosophy, or government, or economics... or any other imaginary construct we allow to define the world we live in.
Of course, many people will attempt to reduce the imaginary construct held by someone else to better validate the imaginary construct they themselves follow.
eShirl
(18,503 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)is probably as weird as the golden tablets.
How about being allowed to eat meat, or cheese, but not both at the same time? That's no weirder than tea and coffee being prohibited.
Or a simple wafer literally (not metaphorically) becoming the Body of Christ during transubstantiation? Surely this is just as weird as a "belief in exceptionalism and expansionism", if not more so.
I think the only reason Mormonism seems weirder at first glance is that most people are much more familiar with the other religions, so they do not seem as strange by comparison.
ThomThom
(1,486 posts)meat and cheese - in times of scarcity to use up your proteins all at once would be wasteful
not eating pork - people got sick from eating under cooked pork so it was deemed unclean
caffeine is a drug and makes people hopped up, alcohol makes them violent and crazy
I'm sure there is a reason for a lot of this stuff but the golden tablets and talking to god that is just control tactics to keep people in line and under their control for personal gains.
Daemonaquila
(1,712 posts)Talking snakes? Pillar of salt? The acid trip of Revelations? Prohibitions on touching "unclean" women during a period? Driving demons into swine? A boat with 2 of every animal? A guy whose strength lies in his hair? Parting the Red Sea?
Mormonism is exactly as cracked as every other major religion. Anyone who says otherwise has drunk the kool-aid of their religion's set of crazy tall tales, to the point that they seem normal. As George Carlin would say, "It's all bullshit, and it's bad for you." Quit picking on the Mormons and take a hard look at the nonsense that feels safe and familiar.
Response to cali (Original post)
Puzzledtraveller This message was self-deleted by its author.
DarleenMB
(408 posts)"The Book of Mormon itself, is a magpie version of a religion. A bit of this, a dash of that."
so is christianity.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)If you took a blotter full of acid and made up your own religion it would probably be more coherent and believable than either Christianity or Mormonism.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)they wear magic underwear. Creepy!
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)
LibertyLover
(4,788 posts)When I was in college, my major was Ancient Near Eastern History and Culture with a specialization in Egyptology (Want to freak the mundanes? - walk into the Egyptian Wing of the Metropolitan Museum of Art and start to translate the prayer on the front plaque of a 19th dynasty coffin. Ah, good times!). I went to the University of Chicago, whose Oriental Institute is well-known for its Egyptian history, language and art scholars. One day our Egyptian art professor, Dr. Baer, walked into class laughing. This was somewhat unusual for him - he was a nice guy but fairly restrained. It seems that a Mormon official had brought him a piece of papyrus to translate. The official stated that it was a very important document that would prove some claim in the Book of Mormon. Dr. Baer had taken a photo and showed it to us. It was a very bog standard piece of a funerary text (aka Book of the Dead) with standard prayers for the deceased. The papyrus also had a drawing with a piece cut out of it. The official insisted that the missing piece was the crucial part (convenient, no?) and would Dr. Baer be able to recreate the missing text from what the rest of the document said. Dr. Baer was able to show him similar drawings without the missing piece. It was a very standard drawing of the dead Osiris as a mummy laying on a bier. His wife Isis hovers over His erect penis as a bird in order to conceive Their son Horus. Somewhere along the line on the piece of papyrus the Mormon official had, prudes had cut out the erect penis. Dr. Baer told us that the Mormon official had left rather deflated. Imagine Dr. Baer's anger when several months later he found out that the Mormon Church was pitching his explanation of the papyrus totally incorrectly. I believe he finally had to have his lawyer get them stop.
IDoMath
(404 posts)I was at the Met in NYC recently looking at the egyptian wing. I noticed that falcons in the hieroglyphs were "perched" - the description explained that these indicated religious significance but I can't help but see it as evidence of falconry even though I've been told that clear evidence of falconry only goes back to 403BC. Do you have any more info on this? Se
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)Is displaying an incredible ignorance about religion in general and religious history in particular.
former-republican
(2,163 posts)Someone rises from the dead?
No matter which one you believe there's always that sticking point in all of them.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)Mankind has always asked questions about life -- where humans came from and what happens after we die.
In more primitive times, people, with their limited knowledge, told stories and developed myths. The interesting thing is that these myths endured for centuries, crossed cultures, and are remarkably similar -- virgin birth accompanied by angels, a god-man who died, usually on a cross or tree, and later rose from the dead. This myth was centuries old when Jesus was supposedly born and shows up in a lot of different places. Each culture embellished them and refined them, until we end up with what we have today. It is a continuing story of humans trying to explain what to them is unexplainable.
Mormonism is pretty much a ponzi scheme developed in a few weeks by a convicted con artist, one of whose goals was to fuck as many women as he could.
He cribbed from existing religious texts (badly) and took his temple ceremony from the newly revised Masonic ritual that had just been released. This bears no relation to centuries of religious thought. You may call religious thought "fantasy," but Mormonism doesn't even rise to that level. Just a scam.
former-republican
(2,163 posts)Response to former-republican (Reply #37)
Poll_Blind This message was self-deleted by its author.
IDoMath
(404 posts)I am opposed to blocking posts. I believe the answer to offensive speech is more speech. But the presence of this thread and some of the replies really strikes me as a double standard being applied on DU.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....of what it really believes, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....by attempting to sell Mormonism to the Evangelical right as a Christian religion all for the sake of trying to get their votes and be elected to the highest office in the country.
What is even more frightening to me is the fact that one of the tenants of Mormonism is the desire to replace our "civil government" with a "religious government administered by Mormons".
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Believing in magic, regardless of the packaging or brand name is weird. Just how weird comes out in the wacky rituals and need to hide them from sane peoples vision. Just my opinion.
forestpath
(3,102 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)They are all the same. Belonging to one group implies that everyone else is somehow less than you.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)anyone who walks up to me, and begins talking about their preferred mythology as if I am supposed to accept it as a part of reality, without question, is prone to mental illness, in my opinion. They're all weird, to me (religion, I mean).
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)an all-powerful sky god impregnated a virgin teenager, who gave birth to a son named Jesus who was 100% human and 100% god at the same time. This son was sent as a blood sacrifice to save humanity from damnation because the first humans had eaten an apple given to them by a talking snake. The son grew up and started performing miracles (defying all laws of physics) and claiming to be god's son. God eventually allowed his son to be killed to fulfill the blood sacrifice that would save mankind. Three days after he was dead and buried, he came back to life, walked around for a couple days and talked to his old friends before rising up into the clouds. And now every Sunday all Christians must go to a church and eat bread and wine that represents this son's flesh and blood.
Here's a quote from the Bible of mainstream Christianity:
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The Ark of the Covenant, by the way, was covered in gold and parts of it (a golden cover) were pure gold. Treating gold as important or meaningful is not unique to Mormonism (and certainly not to the United States).
Christianity in its early days was quite ritualistic and very secretive. Ever heard of the catacombs?
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)And also, good point on its secrecy. We're stuck with the annoyingly ubiquitous "secret society" mark Jesus fish as a result. Fun fact, though, the ichthys is yet another Christian rip off of paganism. Every time you see a Jesus fish, you're looking at a depiction of female genitalia. That makes me like it better, in fact. I like to imagine it biding its time until it can eventually topple the silly patriarchal Xtian religion.
But contemporary Jesus worshippers might be surprised, even outraged, to learn that one of their preeminent religious symbols antedated the Christian religion, and has its roots in pagan fertility awareness and sexuality. Barbara G. Walker writes in "The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects," that the acronym pertaining to Jesus Christ was a "rationale invented after the fact... Christians simply copied this pagan symbol along with many others." Ichthys was the offspring son of the ancient Sea goddess Atargatis, and was known in various mythic systems as Tirgata, Aphrodite, Pelagia or Delphine. The word also meant "womb" and "dolphin" in some tongues, and representations of this appeared in the depiction of mermaids. The fish also a central element in other stories, including the Goddess of Ephesus (who has a fish amulet covering her genital region), as well as the tale of the fish that swallowed the penis of Osiris, and was also considered a symbol of the vulva of Isis.
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/fish_symbol.htm
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)...which caused their ceremonies and rituals to be held in secret in places like the catacombs.
Yes, the Mormons felt threatened to a certain extent, largely brought on by their own actions. But they were never hunted down, persecuted, tortured, and killed as were the early Christians.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)make? Any doctrine of ethics that isn't based of objective cognitive reasoning is invalid and inherently dangerous to life.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)NOT!
Dr Fate
(32,189 posts)nt
hughee99
(16,113 posts)I'm not aware of very many religions that don't think they are special (From the "chosen people", to the Jehovah's Witnesses, to Scientologists), and it's hard to argue that both Christianity in general and Islam are (or have been) expansionist in their past.
marshall
(6,665 posts)It's all the same hocus pocus in the end.
BeeBee
(1,074 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)
D23MIURG23
(2,850 posts)Second, I think rating religions by "weirdness" is misguided. It would be better to think about whether there are particularly bad values or memes within Mormonism that are likely to be reflected in Rmoney's policy and attitude. I can think of a few of those (mostly having to do with racism and sexism that seem especially entrenched in mormonism) and I generally think they are more deserving of comment than how silly it is that people believed an obvious conman in an age when they could read newspapers.
eallen
(2,954 posts)And after that, answer whether angels can occupy the same point in space?
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)Not a believer-- but I'm willing to cut more slack for magical explanations of the the history of the world and the universe that emerged before modern science than those concocted when people should have known better. Some 20th century concoctions are even worse than Mormonism in that regard.
