General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsElder DUers, please help enlighten me
I'm 31 years old, and that seems young to this forum.
I know as a society, we are always fed with the idea that "capitalism good, socialism BAAAD!", but as I get older, I wonder why any sane human being, after years of progression could continue to support the crony capitalist system we have today. There's a difference between selling and exchanging products and services vs gutting companies and selling their assets for quick profit(the kind that offers no service). The latter is what I see as the biggest problem today. There are too many wealthy elites that make money of of nothing, in exchange for contributing nothing to society but meager mandatory taxes(or none at all).
I'm sure there are few blunt answers, such as "they were raised that way" or "one day I may be rich", but how much does someone have to take being bent over and violated before they turn around and say "NO MORE!". Could it be willful ignorance? Indifferent agreement? Could they really be against but fearful of their fellow man(liberal in a red state)?
Just something I was pondering over during lunch and what I've thought about several times. Figured here was a good enough place to ask.
Edit: To clarify, as I asked earlier,
How can any sane person continue to support this predatory capitalist system?
DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Universal health care, low unemployment, generous benefits for workers, plenty of vacation time and paid maternity leave.
Perhaps the problem is not capitalism itself but our implementation of it.
Risen Demon
(199 posts)As I said, there's a difference between a business that offers something vs one that still profits from offering nothing.
It seems though like every time you bring up any Euro nation to compare(while talking with a RWer) will simply point out "SOCIALISM!" though.
no_hypocrisy
(46,146 posts)If you've made out pretty well financially with crony capitalism, you're loathe to change the system as long as you're still getting rich.
If you're not part of the Rich Man's Club, you believe you'll be invited to join in the near future if you support crony capitalism. Of course, you won't be asked, but that's the secret.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)To the extent that what you may think is capitalism today isn't really capitalism.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Or that somehow capitalism goes too far only when their own livelihoods are at stake.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)It's unusual for someone to look at something that has been ingrained in them since birth and see it objectively.
Religion is probably the best example of an established paradigm. Many, when faced with contrary info to what they believe will simply shut down in regard to discussion and thought on the matter.
The same holds true to any deeply held belief. Those who are raised believing capitalism is what makes America "great" will not accept the notion there is a better system.
It's my belief that the ability to do this is closely tied to the person't level of emotional maturity.
Julie
closeupready
(29,503 posts)in terms of the fact that each state gets only two representatives in the Senate, i.e., in the Senate, an official elected to represent Wyoming has as much power as an official elected to represent California. Thus, if you have big money, you get more bang for your buck by buying off a Senator from a sparsely populated state than one from a highly popular state.
Read "What's the Matter with Kansas?" for more info.
Risen Demon
(199 posts)I've seen several references to that book. I think I'll go check it out.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)You used Capitalism and Crony Capitalism, but those are not synonymous. Capitalism evolved from the ideas of Adam Smith. Cronyism was abhorrent to him and he believed that Capitalism must always be monitored to keep Capitalists from fixing prices.
Socialism was Marx's baby, though there were many communities in history that lived communally, that kept property in common rather than than as an individual right. Socialism as it is practiced in Sweden is quite different from Cuba or China or the defunct Soviet system. They are not implemented the same way.
I think the best system is one that mixes these ideas, providing broad individual freedoms but not allowing the rich to trample upon those lest fortunate.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)some one will have the means to game a Representative system.
FDR saved us from the evils of unbridled Capitalism.
But he just pulled us back from the edge.
He instituted regulations on the activities of Capital that helped stave off the corrosive effects of
money in our society but left in place the means to re-corrupt the system.
It took the evil influences of unbridled wealth 70 years to undo the restraints but it did;
starting with RayGun and reaching fruition with Dim Son.
Now Willard is the face of the new Economic Royalty.
The reason some countries seem to have avoided the worst effects
of Capitalism is that we "helped" the institute protections into their systems. (Witness the requirement to have worker representatives on the BOD in Germany).
No sane person continues to support this predatory Capitalist system.
The support it gets comes from the way the institutions have been built to perpetrate it.
This is evidenced by the way certain subjects are forbidden to be discussed, or even thought about.
When is the last time you heard anyone talk about :
Public financing of Elections?
Universal single payer health care? Health Care as a right?
Universal free public education at all levels?
A Guaranteed MINIMUM income (sufficient to pay for quality food, housing, and retirement)?
Public owned banks?
A Financial Transaction Tax of some minor amount say 10 cents on every Stock/Bond/Commodity/Future/Derivative?
Eliminating the CAP on SS wages?
Raising the inheritance tax to 99.999% on every thing over $10 Million?
Nationalizing any bank/institution that is "too Big To Fail"?
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)This isn't a popular statement here, but FDR instituted 'reforms' to Capitalism at a time when the labor power of the hard Left was huge, international, and growing. The results of the relief programs had a far greater impact on the death of Communism than the death of Capitalism.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Think about it: elected people would be making decisions about where you work and what sort of things you can own.
Jessy169
(602 posts)There was a time when the earth was relatively empty, the natural resources all sitting in the ground waiting for somebody to extract them. The race was on to see who could grab those plentiful resources that seemed unlimited. Along the way, religious doctrine and hard work and plunder of the earth's riches all got intertwined together. Now, suddenly over the last fifty years or so, we have reached a point of such glutonous consumption and such huge population that we find ourselves looking out across the once barren landscape and realizing that there just isn't enough to keep things going the way they have been any more. Smart and introspective people realize that. But the age-old attitude of "rape the world" in the name of God lives on and is a driving force in those people who tend to be less concerned about mother earth and who certainly tend to not give much concern to the people who have missed the boat on rapid economic growth -- of which, there are legions. In one of my college history classes, we had to read Giants In the Earth -- a story about American settlers expanding across the praries. The story shows how the hardworking, earnest American settlers walked into an open and untouched landscape of plenty, but shortly turned it into an ecological disaster with all the bounty consumed or destroyed. That book is on Amazon still - http://www.amazon.com/Giants-Earth-Prairie-Perennial-Classics/dp/0060931930.
Such is the history of humans, but we're hitting a brick wall now, and big trouble is brewing.
Risen Demon
(199 posts)Or perish from them. Hopefully the former, but I wonder how bad things would have to get before we would finally band together to work for the greater good.
Thanks for the book rec.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)countries. They are deliberately misled. They equate socialism with communism. They don't know that those countries are constitutional democracies, just like the U.S.
Very few Americans have passports or have been to any foreign country except perhaps Mexico or Canada. They have no idea of how socialist economic policies enhance the lives of their citizens. They think "socialized medicine" will lead to euthanasia and forced abortions.
Love that last sentence about forced euthanasia and abortion. That's just ridiculous that anyone could think like that.
Of course the same people who think like that probably think Euthanasia is referring to poor Asian kids in a 3rd world country.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)by the World Health Organizations ranking of health care systems of all countries. We rank far below countries in every benchmark WHO uses to measure the effectiveness of health care systems, such as infant mortality and longevity.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Consider the possibility that sane people don't support this predatory capitalist system.
patrice
(47,992 posts)and ends unfortunately, in temperament, which in some of its more extreme types can have the most absolutely obdurate vindictive traits imaginable. These are the people about whom it is said, TTE, "S/he will cut his/her own nose off to spite YOUR face" and they really really are a small, very small, but because they are intractable a very powerful, minority and, unfortunately, I think they know this and are of the type who see this trait as proof of their personal worth, unlike most others who would regard such a trait in themselves as a flaw known as bullying.
Extremes in temperament are the minority, most people's temperaments are more combinations of factors, so their responses to being "bent over and violated" vary more in terms of what's in it for them at any given moment. Another unfortunate fact about that is that intermittent reinforcers/rewards are much more powerful than regular, predictable, rewards, so these more moderate temperaments will keep on running the rat race against socialism and for aristocracy as long as there is some expectation of gratification of one type or another.
Personally, I think it is also true that these less extreme minds, in response to "being bent over and violated", cannot be characterized in a monolithic way, even if they are characterized as moderate. That means for every trait we posit, such as the expectation of a reward, there's also a reciprocal of that trait that is inhibited in favor of the dominant trait, i.e. resentment vs. gratification. Those inhibited responses are not 0. They ARE there in those individual "systems" that we call an individual's personality; they may go un-recognized, un-validated, but that does not mean that the effects of the frustration, the effects of "being bent over and violated" are not there. And it also does pose the very real possibility that those effects can be triggered in uncontrollable ways, ways that historically have resulted in things like lynchings or beating certain kinds of young men to death and leaving them "crucified" in city gutters or on remote fences in the dead of winter.
So people are getting SOME (intermittent) rewards for bending over and being violated, while, at the same time, they have responses to that bargain that they either actively suppress, ignore, deny, or lie about. What motivates, what triggers these inhibited negative reactions to the deal?
Obviously, those suppressed and oppressed frustrations can include a nearly infinite number of triggers individually, and we also should consider them in terms of the aggregate valence too, not just as individual instances of this or that pain or anger or sadness or vulnerability or disappointment or . . . . , but also as entire systems of those sorts of things that we are not allowed to validate except in socially acceptable ways that don't address root causes.
IMHO, that sum-total of being bent over and violated, for any given person let alone for whole societies, can be so big, so saturated and hence un-satisfied with more, and More, and MORE from acceptable outlets/substitutions/rewards, that it is a threat to one's/the group's very existence to even recognize that it exists, let alone DO anything about it, besides, perhaps drink or take drugs. So much of a threat also because, incidentally, recognition of that pain and frustration negates EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN SACRIFICED TO CONTROLLING IT for the sake of (intermittent - and thus anxiety provoking) "food pellets"/rewards.
We have to think what it feels like, mistaken or otherwise, to look at one's life and say, TTE, "I sacrificed ___________________________ in order to _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ and now I no longer want _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ and whatever ___________________________ was it is so lost to me that I'm not even sure what it was, nor how to go about discovering that, let alone what to do about it."
IMO, the answers to these very organic very real problems can be found in opportunities for self-chosen, self-guided entirely/fundamentally new ways of living and, because, we are talking about LIVING here, and not just another re-manifestation of the survival of the fittest rat race under different labels, again, because this must be about LIVING, those opportunities to construct new, more authentically satisfying ways of getting along in the world and with other people, should very definitely include guarantees of some basic relationships in the group in which all of that will occur and those guarantees should be for REAL VALUES (in the sense in which Adam Smith meant that in The Wealth of Nations), i.e. Real Values, such as: Universal, comprehensive, appropriate, authentic, cradle-to-grave Health Care, Education, and Social Security and Valid & Reliable local and national security.
As far as the economic assumptions that keep people "bent over and violated", my family experiences have lead me to wonder if it wouldn't be effective to authentically examine the assumptions that exclude the possibility that there are a whole LOT of people who would very likely exchange some of that FALSE VALUE, known as money, which they are bending over and being violated for, for Real Values of the sort that I sketch above. Answers to this question could provide some very practical problem solving and even set many more people free to participate in those solutions in ways that make them and others more happy.