What just happened.

[Warren Stupidity]

I watched the first debate. I purposely did not watch any of the post debate commentary. In my opinion, Romney was an energetic rude preposterous liar. Obama was a calm, somewhat aloof, presence, determined to clearly outline the differences in positions between himself and Mr. Romney. Romney got points for enthusiasm, Obama for actually addressing issues. I did not think there was a clear winner, nor did I think Obama disgraced himself.

And then a Coordinated Media Assault occurred. It was a Dean Scream, a Kerry on a windsurfer, a Pals around with Terrorists event. An opening was observed: Obama was less emotionally present than Romney. A narrative was constructed, and it was catapulted non-stop for the next week.

Within 24 hours Obama's supporters were repeating the narrative unchallenged.

It didn't happen. We were brainwashed. Wake the fuck up.

[Whisp]

1. yep. nt

[liberalmike27]

65. Yep

Been saying this was going to happen since the morning BEFORE the debate--that the media was going to declare Romney the winner.

Several times I've heard people say "I can't wait until the debates so Obama can kick his ass," to which I replied, "It doesn't matter at all what they said." The media is going to declare Romney the winner, no matter what is said.

Then I mentioned "excessive watch looking," or "Long sighs to stupid comments," or "beer drinking abilities," as a few of the things the media has grabbed onto before, to reward or detract from various candidates.

You did right, watch the debate, judge for yourself, turn off the television, and don't read anything until the next day. It's amazing how different your actual opinion might be, as opposed to those of millions' a year talking-heads, awarded by corporations to put their candidate in office.

[liberalmike27]

67. Posted This Yesterday

I've been making the points for nearly a decade now that 1.) there is no liberal media and 2.) Democrats want to be fair, Republicans want to win, so Republicans end up winning, and staying in office.

Also lately I've put forward the idea that if you judge on substance, truth, honesty, and detracted for dishonesty, flipping of positions, and deceit, Obama won.

Cenk Uygur tonight on his Current show demonstrated both of them for me, that is if you've not figured out yet that there is no real liberal television media. He talked about how right-wing television supported their candidates no matter what, even when their candidates lost. Then he talked about how Democratic television was trying to be honest, so they said Obama lost, which was exactly like right-wing television.

So, if we actually had left-wing media, we would've seen them defend Obama both on truth, lack of lies and deceit, and substance, the winner, admitting perhaps that he appeared a bit tired, but that is to be expected, campaigning constantly and running the country too.

The supposed "liberal media" though did neither. They treated Obama like a red-headed stepchild, as if he was the worst, and probably make Akin feel a whole lot better. Cenk talking about the left "wanting to be honest" proved my other point. While Democrats putter around with their honesty, and fairness, and resign at the drop of the hat, Republicans drive through the pain, they put up with the scandal, they support their own candidates for the most part. Rarely do they attack them, unless they are just plain being stupid.

It isn't something I had to have proved to me again. I said as the season progressed, and Obama picked up a big lead, that they would be doing back-flips, making things up, flip-flopping and not being called on it like a "Kerry" to try to get it close. This debate was chosen to be "the Dean Scream" of this campaign. I said it on the morning of the debate, "It doesn't matter what Obama says or does, he is going to be declared the loser. Once again, we see that our media isn't "left/right" as it has portrayed itself, but a corporate entity, only interested in the goals and ambitions of corporations. Certainly MSNBC and Current are left of FOX--but what isn't? With the exception of Rush and a few complete nuts like Glen Beck, everything on television is left of FOX. But clearly it's not Democratic, and nowhere near liberal.

Just know who you're listening to, and don't be conned into thinking millions' a year paid talking-heads are on your side. They aren't. They are on the side of evening it up, to try to get more viewers to pay attention to their rants and attacks on Obama.

[SemperEadem]

110. Cenk Uyger

was the first person to pounce on Obama after the debate on Current. John Fugelsang looked like he wanted to snatch a knot in his ass for a while there. Fugelsang and Gov. Granholm were the only ones who did not come right out and trash Obama's performance on Current. Uyger, Spitzer and Gore all danced around the grave their comments were digging that night. They said nothing about the substance of Obama's remarks, but went on and on on the optics.

Sometimes, Dems are a Democrat's worst enemy.

[rhett o rick]

166. President Obama has come out and pretty much agreed with Chenk. nm

[DonCoquixote]

171. would you consider making this an op

It says a LOT,especially about how we are so ready to shoot our own.

[robbob]

133. Don't forget

Don't forget "There you go again...."

Everyone swooned over Ronnies debating mastery because of a stupid catch phrase.

[byoung6]

2. Exactly

The min. the debate was over reality went out the window and perception took over.

[cleanhippie]

3. Amazing, isn't it.

When Rachel Maddow parrots the narrative along with the rest... Things are bad.

[xxqqqzme]

108. Out of curiosity

I flipped to M$NBC just in time to catch Rachel introducing Rudy 'a noun, a verb and 9/11'. I thought WTF? Went to Current to hear all of them lamenting and rending their garments. I went back to the Angels last game of the season. They were only losing 12-0.

""Walt Whitman once said, 'I see great things in baseball. It's our game, the American game. It will repair our losses and be a blessing to us.'


(I did look it up and Whitman never actually wrote those exact words but it is a good paraphrase).

[PDJane]

4. I personally thought that Obama won the debate since Romney was lying all the way.

But then, I'm not an American and don't have a steady diet of American media. I am convinced that this is the reason that I have a different opinion than almost everyone on the political issues.

For instance, I don't tend to go into vicious overkill on retribution for people who committ crimes of all sorts, especially against children. It's not that I don't think they should be punished, I just don't think that the suggestions for punishment are humane or human most of the time!

[iandhr]

60. Facts don't matter in this country

The President did not correct Mitt once on his lies. That why he lost.

[scheming daemons]

68. If Obama and Lehrer didn't point out that Romney was lying (and they didn't), then it doesn't matter

that he was lying.


If you don't challenge the lies, the low-information voters will think they're true.

[DarleenMB]

72. Please don't lump all Americans into that camp

I don't get most of those yahoos either.

I IMNSHO Obama won the debate. Romney was a rude, lying bully. I know I'm not the only one who saw that.

As for the current polls ... I swear they're all saying the same BS just to keep their ratings up.

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. There it is

[cliffordu]

6. YEp. Perfect.

[HipChick]

7. Thank you for your post...this is what I have been saying all along...

[deaniac21]

8. You should be a commentator.

Or, in the very least, a sweet tater or idaho tater!

[scheming daemons]

9. you're wrong

15 minutes in, I wad screaming at my TV for Obama to wake the fuck up.

30 minutes in, there were a dozen threads on DU from longtime members saying the President was blowing it.

This was long before any media "brainwashing " could occur.

The President admitted he was bad. His staff knew it in the spin room before they even were interviewed.

No need to rewrite history. The President had a bad night. Time to move on.

[barbtries]

12. did you spend any of that time

yelling at romney to tell the truth?

[brush]

41. Thank you, barbries

Thanks for pointing that out as there are still many diehards who refuse to get off their Obama bashing while saying nothing about the lying, bullying Romney.

[barbtries]

45. you're welcome

i'm just glad i didn't watch it. i can't handle all those lies and the stress.

[scheming daemons]

66. I was yelling at Obama to point out that Romney wasn't telling the truth!

And I was posting it on DU in realtime as well.


Go back and read the realtime threads during the debate.


The perceptions that Obama lost were not manufactured by the media. Those were the perceptions DURING the debate, in real time, before any media could comment on it.

[barbtries]

80. thanks, but i've read enough.

the man's human and he's the best possible candidate for the presidency. all this piling on and hand wringing is not just useless for the party, it's useful for the right.

i would never give the win to romney because he gained it by lies. i don't give a crap if he was more assertive and energetic and loud. he was lying: disqualified.

[scheming daemons]

82. You are, of course, correct about Romney being disqualified

But only among those of us that know he lied.


The low-information voters watching last week were never informed that Romney lied. Not during the debate, anyway.

[barbtries]

86. that's an uphill battle that will not change

certainly not in this election: the media in this country is pathetic.

[rhett o rick]

167. No one it giving the "win" to Rmoney. But the difference between Democrats and the crack-pot

party is that we think for ourselves. We are not like the conservatives and will be tough on our leader if he deserves it. It doesnt and any way mean we wont support him.

I belong to the Democratic Party where we argue, fight and hold our leaders accountable. If you want to sit in a circle, holding hands chanting, "our leader is God, our leader is God," then you are in the wrong party.

[barbtries]

169. a lot of people gave the "win" to romney.

it's crunch time, and i don't believe in gawd.

[Skittles]

75. problem is, we KNOW conservatives are liars

Obama should have been prepared for outrageous lies from Romney - it is obvious that man is a narcissistic FREAK who will say and do anything because he feels ENTITLED to the be president

[barbtries]

84. now that i agree with.

there was a thread here the day after or whatever that posited that the president was actually blindsided by the sheer cravenness of romney's performance. the poster shared that no one expected it would be that outrageous. i responded, i did.

how much more evidence do we need after all that he would do anything to be president? seriously i think if he could be guaranteed the job if he sacrificed one of his children he would do it. there is no low that is too low for romney. a real disgusting snake of a human.

[LisaL]

16. Exactly. It's not all media spin.

People were posting here, before any media spin, that Obama wasn't doing well.
He needs to show more energy in the next two debates, that's all.

[Scootaloo]

127. Of course, the same people have been after Obama's ass since Jan. 21, 2009

He can do no right, and his opponents can do no wrong. This is the reality of the "Progressives" on DU and elsewhere.

They fucked us in 2010 by internal vote suppression, and they are doing it again in 2012.

[treestar]

31. Maybe you think the way the pundits do

Time for a checkup!

Just kiddin'

[GitRDun]

39. I am with scheming

His body language was terrible. There were times Romney was lying and Obama was standing their nodding, as if in assent to the lies. Even Obama said he had a bad night. Sure, Obama had the facts and Romney is a serial liar. However, if the President, in his mannerisms, and what he says and does not say, allows for a low information voter to leave with an impression that Romney is a moderate, he lost. It's no crime to admit it.

[SmileyRose]

124. Someday

someone will figure out a way to explain so I can understand it - why some people assume a polite silence always means agreement and never means giving someone enough rope to hang themselves.

My temperament is a lot like President Obama's in this regard. I'm much more apt to hang back and give a bullshit artist all the room they need to prove to everyone they are full of it. People tell me I'm too patient. Bullies assume I'm a pushover. But at the end of the day I have a reputation for being a lot of good and valuable things and the bullies and bullshit artists are always found out and marginalized.

I realize it's a different dynamic at Presidential levels but I would think anyone with any life experience at all would know better.

---------

After typing this I realize it may come off as personally toward you and I don't know how else to word it. I get the sense that you are speaking in general that is how Obama was viewed and that is how I mean my comments....... nothing personal.

[Champion Jack]

42. Thank you for your concern

[scheming daemons]

58. lol

Look... it is not a crime to admit that the President didn't have his finest hour last week.

It doesn't mean he'll lose the election.



It was clear early in the debate that the President was losing badly. It wasn't "media spin" that made that true. Go back and read the DU threads that were being posted *DURING* the debate. That was before any DUers could be affected by the post-debate chatter.


The OP's premise is false. Democrats didn't think Obama won and then changed their perceptions after hearing the media spin. Almost everybody here at DU was saying the President did badly long before Chris Mathews opened his mouth.


We don't do any good by lying to ourselves. It is good that the President and his team realize what happened last week. We need to realize it too.

[sevenseas]

98. You are so right and what is up with you guys

who think we have to pretend Obama did good when he fell flat?

I agree with the posters who said he had a chance to call Robme out on his lies, yet stood there and said very little, like a child in the principals office..

Obama himself said he made a poor showing, so let's be honest and not like the Far Reich pundits, and admit he lost that round. Doesn't mean he will lose the next one.

TONIGHT...I hope Joe Biden rips out Ryan's adams apple with his bare teeth, chews it up, spits it into a tart shell and shoves it up Ryan's ass.

And no offense to EDDIE MUNSTER- but a lot of us have noticed his resemblance to Paul Ryan.

[marions ghost]

57. Were DUers so negative & reactive because they KNEW what the media would do with it?

The media follow-up was RIDICULOUS.

American Gladiators is what they think the people want. OOOOO the president stumbles OOOOO the rabid challenger steps into the ring OOOOO the race gets closer OOOOO Rmoney lies but that's OK OOOOO Obama flagellates himself OOOOO can he be the comeback kid OOOOO Rocky Balboa OOOOO Rmoney "won" (whatever that means)

You can't use DUers' response as a support for what the mainstream media did with it.

[scheming daemons]

61. Go back and reread what everyone was posting DURING the debate

Long-time DUers who have been here more than a decade. WillPitt... even Skinner.


The OP's ridiculous premise that DUers were "brainwashed" doesn't jibe with reality.

[marions ghost]

85. I know what was posted

--but you didn't address my point--that a LARGE part of the reason heads were exploding around here is that DUers KNEW what the media would do with this. They knew very well that the debate would NEVER be treated as a "draw." They KNEW that the image-conscious media would give Rmoney extra points for lying with conviction. And certainly they KNEW Obama could not "win" merely by sticking to truth, since that's not what's valued in our culture. They KNEW that it is all about image. Yes, Obama lost the image battle. But he won the Truth War.

----------------------------------------

I agree with the OP's post:

"Romney got points for enthusiasm, Obama for actually addressing issues. I did not think there was a clear winner, nor did I think Obama disgraced himself.

And then a Coordinated Media Assault occurred. It was a Dean Scream, a Kerry on a windsurfer, a Pals around with Terrorists event. An opening was observed: Obama was less emotionally present than Romney. A narrative was constructed, and it was catapulted non-stop for the next week."

----------------------------------------

As for brainwashing, I wouldn't have used that word. But I DO know what he means. Ardent fascism fearing Liberals' worst fears WERE validated by the media....you HAVE to see that part of the dismay around here comes from being well-trained in anticipating the worst.

[Martin Eden]

113. Yep

During the debate I too was yelling for Obama to more effectively refute Romney's lies, and before any pundits weighed in (I was watching Rachael and the MSNBC folks) I knew that Romney had scored with a lot of viewers who weren't informed enough to see Romney's lies for what they were. I was also yelling at Romney calling him a bold-faced liar, but that's been his modus operandi all along and was to be expected.

Sure, the media that needs a competetive horse race to boost their ratings did a lot more to frame the debate as a Romney victory than they did to check the facts ... but we (and the Obama team) understood before the debate how the mainstream media operates, right?

[LiberalElite]

161. I hope Obama wears a red tie next time

Seriously. I tuned in about 3 minutes after 9 as Obama was speaking to Michelle about how next anniversary would be somewhere better. I noted how he was dressed (suit & tie of course) but the blue tie communicated to me that his head wasn't in it. I thought "he's not dressed right for this" and I got a bad omen from that. By comparison Rombot chose to wear a red tie. They don't call red a power color for nothing.

[barbtries]

10. thank you.

it's not just the president who has to do better - it's all of us. of course asking that of the media is kind of like spitting in the wind, but still - especially here on DU we do not need to be catapulting the propaganda that sinks us.

[Mz Pip]

11. I thought Romney was obnoxious

And Obama was too subdued but I didn't think his performance merited the thrashing it received.

If being aggressively obnoxious and misrepresenting positions makes Romney the winner then we really need to take a long hard look at what we consider winning.

[randome]

13. Expectations were high and unmet. That's all.

It's a drop of water in the bucket.

[yodermon]

14. YES. And the fact that Rmoney got such a bounce in the polls scares the fuck out of me,

because it demonstrates that a very very large contingent of American voters are completely susceptible to bullshit, bamboozlement, and most importantly STYLE over Substance. Never mind that Rmoney actually, out loud, and in real life, simply lied unashamedly and unabashedly and with impunity. Nope! Doesn't matter. A buncha know-nothing low information "independent voters" ate it up like shit on toast, with the help of the conventional "wisdom" of the bootlicking media of course.
*That* is the environment, the atmosphere, the playing field, the currency of our discourse now. *THAT* is where Obama has to "go" now to "win" the next "debate". uuggh. i feel ill.

[LisaL]

17. Bush got elected twice. That's all I need to know.

[heaven05]

78. bush

ROVE cheney STOLE two elections with the help of the florida secretary of state(2000) and the ohio secretary of state (2004). Period This time if it's not outright thuggery that wins the mittytwit the white house, it will be the american who has no understanding of what voting against ones best interest is all about.

[sellitman]

121. How about Bain Capitol owning voting machines?

If you think this election isn't about to get stolen then you are smoking something.

[heaven05]

155. that too

bush's theft in 2000 started me drinking again after 20 years of self imposed sobriety while I studied different religions. I don't know what going to happen to me on mittytwits theft.

[Schema Thing]

15. It's funny how there was soooo much talk about "the expectations game"...

... before the debate. But after? Virtual silence about that particular aspect.

YET... expectations where extremely high for Obama and pretty much below-sea-level for Romney, pre-debate.

[tjwash]

18. They should just turn the races into a fucking reality show.

That's about all they are anyway. Problem is, they would probably get buried in the ratings behind stalwart intellectual exercising shows like "mob wives" "here comes honey boo-boo" and "hogan knows best"

You could also do various spinoffs called stuff like "project running mate" and "who shall we bomb today?"

[reformist2]

19. It shows that if we aren't up by +10 or more, the media can still sway the election.

[Mattylock]

20. Finally

I totally agree. I was so confused about everyone's reactions. Particularly the MSNBC bunch.

[nenagh]

21. The Romney I saw was deeply disturbing and ready to engage Pres Obama in a dramatic verbal assault..

recorded for posterity... in which he belittled the President... and when Pres Obama didn't sufficiently engage Romney it allow that..

It was left to Ann to actually call the President a petulant child..

Romney as head of his clan is insular, powerful, authoritarian, bullying and steeped in a tradition of winning at any cost.

I think he desired to wipe the floor with Pres Obama... just as he tripped his daughter in law to win a foot race.

[rDigital]

22. Obama himself said that he had a bad night and that RMoney had a good night. Since Obama

knows what to expect the 2nd time around he'll be more aggressive and wipe the floor with Mitt's trickle down economics and his proposed gutting of the ACA and Medicare.

Its a "Fool me once" type of thing. RMoney still looked like a sheister at the end of the first debate. It's a hollow victory for him since it was ill-gotten, and the people of America saw it too.

Not to mention this whole scuttlebutt is going to switch Biden into beast mode for tonight's thrashing.

[TwilightGardener]

23. Yep. You nailed it. Somehow, a subdued performance becomes a FUCKING DISASTER!!!

God help President Obama if he ever actually shows he's human and makes a REAL mistake, says the wrong thing, smiles at the wrong time, gets a statistic wrong. DEMOCRATS will be the first with the brickbats, followed by enthusiastic Republicans who can't believe their good fortune.

[fleabiscuit]

24. Fight fire

Fight fire with fire. Watch all future debates on CSPAN. Spread the word, encourage everyone to watch on CSPAN. Take the audience away.

[Scuba]

25. Bingo.

[Z_California]

26. So true

I wanted to strangle Diane Sawyer last night asking President Obama, "was it painful to watch your debate performance". Give me a break.

[HughBeaumont]

71. Answer: "Yes; almost as painful as watching you pretend to be an objective journalist."

[treestar]

27. I agree

DUers often absorb the M$M narrative wholesale.

[MjolnirTime]

28. some people like eating troll bait.

[quinnox]

29. sounds like too much kool-aid

Obama was bad, real bad. Especially for the first half, which is when most are watching. Yes, it was a disaster.

[brush]

55. Oh, yeah?

You still don't seem to get it. What about Romney? He lied and bullied and you still don't criticize him.

[Wednesdays]

104. Show me a clip of his worst moment, please.

As they say, "Put up or..."

[Cha]

144. Sorry, all I see is the negative spin

coming your way as far as the President is concerned..and, here it is again with you accusing others of imbiding "kool aid". meh

[HERVEPA]

30. This is not a college debate we're discussing

The winner is the one who makes the more positive impression on voters.
Doesn't matter if he does it by lying or changing positions or whatever.
The other stuff doesn't count.

[chervilant]

32. Please note that

some of us didn't buy the M$M narrative. Other than that, I do think a great many of us need to "wake the fuck up."

[Baitball Blogger]

33. I was there when it happened.

The talking heads on the left did not get their memes from the right. Those over-reactions were all their own.

Perhaps, overreaction is an unkind word. It just didn't help in the long run, whatever it was.

[cilla4progress]

34. I hear you -

as time passes and the dust settles, I feel I can see clearly now!

Much as I love Ed Schultz and Co., I am starting to see their culpability in this!

And - though I choke on the words - I am starting to agree a little with Rahm Emmanuel when he took the left wing mediocracy to task during the health care law negotiations! (Though I'm still pissed about lack of single payer and we can re-plow that field but I'll leave it for another thread!!!)

[kurtzapril4]

35. "We were brainwashed. Wake the fuck up."

Speak for yourself. I saw and heard the goddamned debate, and I was awake the whole damned time. I know that Obama won on the facts, but that Rmoney won on perception. And perception is what counts. Hence the alarming drop in the polls for OBama. Here's hoping Biden drinks a lot of coffee today, and kicks Ryan's ass out of the building.

[siligut]

36. You got it

Nothing about how Mitt was waving his arms or speed-talking and stepping all over himself, Jim Lehrer and the Prez. And that Romney smirk, good god, no wonder he is losing even the repug value voters, that smug, smirking look of his could make a honey badger toss his cookies.

Our guy did the smartest thing he could.

[Prism]

37. He was objectively terrible

I watched the debate with ear buds in while on the elliptical at the gym, so my main first experience was with their body language. The President looked like he was shrinking inside himself, downcast, forlorn, miserable. The optics of that posture were just terrible.

Romney looked like he shouldn't have reached for that seventh cup of coffee.

It was one debate. There are three more. I'm hopeful.

But we do need to maintain a grip on reality. The President did poorly. It happens. I think it's unlikely he'll let it happen again. Acknowledge it and move on.

But denial of reality is a dangerous thing.

[Redford]

38. I agree on the perception being key

Obama looking down at his shoes while Romney was speaking directly at him was disastrous.

[Wednesdays]

107. A moment of looking down is "disastrous?"

Like I said above, please show me a clip of this "disastrous" performance.

[patrice]

164. An interesting point in light of the characterization of note-taking you chose. nt

[Evergreen Emerald]

40. I agee completely. And Romney has figured that out...and is counting on us being idiots.

We believe anything the media tells us...as we protest them loudly.

That is why we are in trouble. Romney can lie and lie because he knows this phenom. Americans cannot think for themselves.

The big money CAN buy elections. Because if they put something on TV--no matter how wrong/untruthful it is--we believe it.

I watched the first segment of the debate when Obama challenged Romney...Romney became agitated and jumpy and his eyes became wild and he sputtered and lied and loudly interrupted. It was no win.

It is terrifying.

[Auntie Bush]

149. +100

[NOLALady]

43. !00% Correct!!!

[Tsiyu]

44. Exactimente!

"Widely believed" is the media's new "some people say."

As in "Money Boo Boo is widely believed to have won the debate..."

Widely believed by whom? A bunch of paid media hacks? A bunch of Big Bidness shills?

I saw the debate, and I saw an out of control bully, flouting the rules BLATANTLY and treating a senior citizen AND a president like dirt.

I saw a LIAR, lying through his teeth about every position he ever held on any issue, and even about his own health care plan.

I saw a President who refused to take the fetid bait Money Boo Boo was offering, by remaining calm.

But the media believe in bullying as a Best Practice, so they are all about Rmoney's shameful performance.

And too many DUers expect their validation to come from media bullies! Lots of luck with that....

[zeemike]

46. That is how I saw it too.

And I think some of us have been conditioned to certain things....like the false notion that a debate is a fight, and the one attacking is a winner if the other one does not attack harder and faster...

And I say it is the TV that does the conditioning because they keep repeating thing in direct and subtle ways until we believe them.

[lpbk2713]

47. The MSM persists on reviving the GOP

That's what it's all about. The rethuglican potty should have
died in 2008 but the MSM keeps bringing them back to life.

[newspeak]

77. yeah, after little boots basically destroyed our country's economy

the talking heads were "is this the end of the repug party?" the repugs even went more pro-little boots agenda and became more angry, ignorant; thus the teabaggers. they caused the damaging problem and now they claim they have the solution. doing more of the same shite that got us into this mess-but, this time with no social safety net while they screw us and watch us fall.

what really disturbs me is I always think of those feeding us the bullshite (media, politicians) patting themselves on the back for conning the american public. I believe they think we're lemmings that will believe any and every lie and can be swayed by their corporate propagandists.

[Avalux]

48. I agree completely, I'm disgusted at how easy it is to manipulate us.

Psy ops, whatever you want to call it - the American people believe what they are told (and don't trust their own perceptions).

I know what I witnessed during the debate, but the aftermath kept telling me I was dead wrong, even here on DU. THAT made me angry. If I wasn't aware of what was going on, I may have joined in and completely discounted my own eyes and ears.

[hedgehog]

49. Agreed!

[iandhr]

50. I disagree

I am one of the President's biggest fans. I watch the debate and drew the conclusion that he did terrible on my own after about 30 seconds. He sounded flat and uninspiring from the start. He allowed Mitt to spew BS without challenging him.

Once a lie is repeated enough it becomes fact like we saw in the healthcare debate.

Even MSNBC people who we consider your friends. Ed Schultz, Rachel Maddow, Lawrence O'Donnell all said the President did not do well.

Its not a media conspiracy its a fact the President did not show up.

[Courtesy Flush]

53. Glad somebody said it

I thought it was a poor performance as it was happening. He needs to do better next week.

What amazes me is that the polls turned on a single debate. Romney didn't outline some bold new policy. He just spoke his lies with confidence. How is it that people who didn't like those lies before, like them now?

[iandhr]

56. People have a short memory.

The President is also incorrectly believes the facts matter. I thought he could have learned is lessons from the healthcare debate if you lie over and over again it becomes fact.

[brush]

63. Huh?

And you gathered this all "after about 30 seconds"? Wow. Wish I could do that. No, on second thought, I don't want to conclude anything after 30 seconds of a 90 minute debate.

[iandhr]

73. Its a figure of speech

[brush]

51. Spot on

I agree. Too many of us turned on the President and let Romney slide with no criticism. The MSNBC crowd's reaction (except for Sharton, McDonnell and Bashir) was and is still disturbing to me. They displayed such a huge overreaction against the President that it bordered on betrayal (yes, I said it), with hardly any commensurate reaction to Romney's bullying and lying. And IMO their words greatly influenced viewers (and even some on the right) because many parroted what they were told here and in other places all week. It was a veritable "Bash Obamafest." Where was the balance? If they had went after Romney just as hard, which he deserved, the meme wouldn't be out there now how the President blew it and Romney "won." Maybe I'm old school but where I come from you don't "win" by lying and bullying and flip-flopping from every goddamn position you've espoused all campaign.

[Cha]

147. Yours is Spot on, too, brush, Thanks!

Old School Rules!

[Cleita]

52. I have to agree with you 100 percent.

I witnessed what you did and have been flummoxed with the commentary since then. I don't feel Obama lost anything. I did see a giant liar and bully claim to win it. I believe many people saw what you and I did.

[hue]

54. Well said!! K&R

[mountain grammy]

59. I watched the rerun, couldn't take it live

and I was yelling at both of them, Rmoney for lying and Obama for not calling him out. Brainwashing.. hah, that's been going on forever, but especially in the last 30 years. It was a country of sheep that elected the likes of Reagan!

[brush]

70. Okay

Mountain grammy, yours is the first post that I've read that said they were yelling at both Romney and the President. That's what I've been talking about all along. Some may not have liked the President's performance, but at least criticize the lying and bullying coming from the other side too.

[kentuck]

62. I think you are mostly correct...

DU was a perfect example. Their expectations were way too high and they were terribly disappointed when Romney was not lying on the floor, literally.

[Little Star]

64. Amen!

[bigwillq]

69. Obama wasn't as bad as some have sad

But he appeared emotionally detached. Seemed like he didn't care and seemed like he didn't want to be there. Not sure what his deal was. He was certainly out of it.

[Chorophyll]

74. This. And thank you for it. nt

[flamingdem]

76. psyched out by our own (tweetie + Big Ed) and the pundits

all were afraid not to "call it" but they couldn't see the forest for the macho tree forest of Mitt Romney's bullshit used car salesman performance.

[flamingdem]

79. Plus Jim Lehrer was a disaster - he allowed Mitt to pull of "MACHO"

watch the media help Ryan by showing his muscles at the gym OVER AND OVER as they are today.

These creeps, all of them gop and msm work on the simplistic CHAKRAS or rather the ANIMAL level rather than the higher functions of our humanity.

[Liberal_Dog]

81. Yes. Let's Blame The Media

What a refreshing approach.

[ErikJ]

83. ROmney used Kitty Laser strategy

Tell so many lies in so many directions there is no chance the opponent attack them all.

[stlsaxman]

87. You been listening to NPR???

Obama is a BIGTIME failure on the "liberal" network. PBS, too.

[Misskittycat]

89. Totally agree n/t

[arthritisR_US]

90. I agree with whole heartedly!! n/t

[andym]

91. Romney wanted to project himself as a stronger leader

and being by being rude and energetic, and lying to moderate his positions he accomplished his goal.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021513512

[Andy Stanton]

92. Elections are about winning and losing

Unfair media? Stupid American electorate? Lying, lowdown Republicans?

Yes, all the above may be true. But these factors aren't going to change. In the end elections are about winning and losing and right now it's Romney who's winning and Obama who's losing.

Democrats better hope and pray that Obama does what's necessary to turn things around.

[mfcorey1]

93. Just like they were brainwashed with joining in the bashing of Acorn. nt

[Javaman]

94. Obama went to the debate intent on debating...

mittens went to the debate intent on being himself: a jerk.

and somehow the media and all the mouth breathing public claimed that mittens won.

I'm still amazed.

[lunatica]

95. We didn't all fall for it, but some here are still attacking Obama

and giving Romney a total pass, as if he did nothing wrong.

[K8-EEE]

96. + 1 million

The reaction is SOOOOOO off the charts crazy and it is being done as a strategy, the liberals falling for it hook line and sinker.

[progressoid]

97. Apparenty the President needs to "wake the fuck up" too.

Since he agrees with this coordinated media brainwashing.

"I had a bad night"

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/president-obama-on-debate-performance-i-had-a-bad-night-30834938.html

[Ikonoklast]

99. I wasn't one of them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021465556

I saw what you saw.

[BumRushDaShow]

100. And Tweety was the first to start the damn ball rolling. n/t

[JNelson6563]

101. Well said!

Between the Obama hating trolls and the corporate media kool-aid drinkers it was a very sad state of affairs.

I came away with the same view as you and was pretty discouraged to see DUers shitting themselves.

Julie

[abelenkpe]

102. Watched the debate. Heard Romney lie lie lie. Media says Obama lost because he didn't call

out every lie Romney put forth because y'know they do such an awesome job pointing out the obvious lies of politicians every time they interview them. O wait, no they don't. Media never calls out lies. Instead they sit and grin and let their lies pass and do some false equivalency BS or say "We'll have to end this here." Every time I attempt to watch the news I get angry and frustrated by reporters who are completely ineffectual at pointing out obvious falsehoods so when the same media turns around and says the president wasn't aggressive enough in pointing out falsehoods it just seems ridiculous. Obama did a better job than any of those overly made up simpering halfwits ever do. That so many viewers then parrot the same baloney just illustrates who is most susceptible to whatever meme media wants to push.

That said we still need to work hard to get democrats elected to congress and to re-elect the president.

[gateley]

103. You have no right to insult those of us who saw this differently than you.

I can assure you, nobody brainwashed us.

[DevonRex]

105. Exactly. Nt

[ksoze]

106. The media narrative was handed to them by his lackluster performance

No matter how you looked at it, Obama did not do well. It does matter of Romney lied, smirked, or threw up on stage, Obama looked unengaged, tired and ready for it to be over. His final two minutes where he was able to sell himself was lackluster and unworthy of such a great candidate.

[NRaleighLiberal]

109. It was a no-win situation for Obama/the Democrats. we know why.

Obama vigorously defends his positions? Becomes a child-back and forth game combined with an angry president depiction.

Obama tries to do what he does? He becomes placid, weak, defenseless.

And, yes - I am among those who would have loved to see him repeatedly kick RMoney's ass, call out the lies - even as I realized that it would do no better in the aftermath. it is easy for us here to imagine a passionate rebuttal, show anger, kick some ass - but we are not those in office who would pay the price for such things. Being an armchair quarterback is, afterall, a pretty easy job.

THE MEDIA. Of which moderation is a component. They want both the horserace (for profits), and a Republican in the White House (to protect their money).

People in general - believe what they see - lies, when repeated, become their truth - especially when it fits their paradigm.

All along - throughout the Clinton years, the Bush disaster years, Obama's first four year - folks, the game is hugely rigged against liberals/progressives/Democrats - whatever you want to use, one or all. We know that.

I for one am not at all surprised to see how things work out - sadly.

[BlueStreak]

111. I'm not sure it was all coordinated. Americans have horrible critical thinking skills.

So they make their decisions based on the bluster factor. And most of the media is exactly the same way.

Romney had the bluster factor, and nobody seemed to care that it was full of lies and evasion. Of course, if president Obama didn't care enough about the lies and evasion to call Romney out, why should the media do it?

It is, after all, a debate. You are expected to make your care DURING the debate, not in interviews and ads after the debate.

[JDPriestly]

112. It didn't happen. Romney did not "win."

He was obnoxious. That's the true story about the debate.

He basically lost his cool. Do we want a president who has so little self-control.

Obama seemed a little tired, and he explained why in his opening statement: he was dealing with crises in foreign affairs.

This was a typical right-wing assault. The voters were not fooled. At least those I have been talking to were not fooled.

Let Romney lose his cool. Let us keep ours.

[YellaDog1950]

114. I read the debate exactly as you did, Warren.

The only thing I will add is that those of us who are political junkies were completely aware of each lie that rMoney told. I called the debate a tie. Romney got away with lying. The President stayed on message even as he tried to correct the lies that Romney told. The debate ended.....and wow....there went the media. I kept wondering if we watched the same debate....or even if I had blacked out and missed half of it.

I'm thankful I still haven't been brainwashed by the media, but I'm more thankful that I'm angry with them instead of the President.

[nolabels]

115. So that's what happened, everybody was just sleeping

Takes a week or so to regain consciousness from an encounter with a lousy used car salesman.

No wonder why there are so many used car lots

[rock]

116. I'll go even further: Obama won

For some reason the MSM thinks a drooling bully in shit-slinging mode is the better "debater" even when all the bully has to offer is lies.

[Vietnameravet]

117. well answer this

Ah yes! Once again its the medias fault..

If what you say is true how do you account for the campaign saying they will use a different strategy next time? Doesnt that tell you something?

And no one was brainwashed...Do you really think Obama supporters are so stupid that the media can "brainwash" them and get them to repeat a false narrative about Obama and what they have just seen, just like that? Just by media saying so, they jump ship? That's what you are telling us? I dont believe it..

Yes you are right,..Mitty lied but how many people knew that at the time? And those lies were mostly unchallenged and when they were they were not challenged strongly enough...that's the problem..not the media complaining that Obama should not have let them slide..

I could outline more reasons why Obama lost but I know that unpleasant truths are not welcome by many... and it really doesnt matter since its done and over,

but the important thing is this; if the campaign doesn't recognize its mistakes and has one more debate like that last one....Romney will win..

Better to accept an unpleasant truth and change it than continue the denial and lose..

[harun]

118. I watched the debate for five minutes. That was all it took to see Romney was intent

on simply lying about everything. Turned it off.

Romney was down in the polls. Corporate Media was going to do this regardless.

[Blue_In_AK]

119. Thank you, Warren

(who I still think has the best name on DU). I was just posting the same thoughts on another thread. I agree with you 100%.

[LaydeeBug]

120. I think that Paul Ryan should *handily*, unequivocally, win this debate with that kind of momentum.

Anything less than that shows they should just give up.

I also think ANYONE playing into the "joe is gonna smoke 'em" meme is playing RIGHT into the pigs' hands, or 'feet' as the case may be.

[tartan2]

122. President Obama did not disgrace himself

what he did was set up Mitt Romney! President Obama is a brilliant tactitian and he surrounds himself with talented brilliant people.

[Cosmocat]

123. THIS times 1,000,000

Dean scream, indeed.

[Proud_Lefty]

125. Couldn't agree with you more

I couldn't stand that smirk on Romney's face throughout the entire debate. He looked like he had constipation. Obama did call him on the BS he was saying, but he wasn't given credit for it. The Deam Scream also ticked me off. What's wrong with people? Why do they let complete strangers think for them? It's downright scary.

[libodem]

126. Death Panels

And Bill Ayers.

[Tumbulu]

128. Correct- but all of us were not brainwashed

we are being manipulated by the "elections industrial complex" - these guys make a fortune on elections and if Romney was really going to be down for the count- think of all the money they would lose!

Highly manipulated. You called it correctly Warren!

[MrSlayer]

129. I was NOT brainwashed.

I called it as I saw it. Let's just pretend what happened didn't happen.

The President had a bad night and his clock cleaned.

Hopefully this will be the last time we talk about this. C'mon Biden, change the narrative.

[WilliamPitt]

130. I see.

So what we did was watch the debate with utterly vapid looks on our faces, waited for our MSM overlords to beam the proper and required response into our brains, and then reacted accordingly...while heroes like yourself were able to pierce the veil with your steely-eyed understanding of How It Really Is, and deliver this nugget of wisdom to us, that we may join you in the rapture of having Finally Figured It All Out.

Gotcha.



You should see my notes from watching the debate. My handwriting gets progressively larger and angrier with every passing minute. I actually think I wrote "AARRGPZZCHEEZZZZGARGARG" about 2/3rds of the way through.

But don't let me fuck up a perfectly good narrative.

[Tumbulu]

175. There was such a different reaction from the women that I know

as well as my own.

I saw a man who was tired and sick and tired of all this outrageous shit being thrown at him left, right, and center. But that had only a few plays allowed to him by our so fabulous inclusive culture in dealing with an outrageously lying bully in public.

I found his approach to Romney to be the perfect one to emulate when dealing with bullies in a public situation. It was helpful to me and all week long I have run into women who have used it in the same way I have. It came out in snippets such as " I stood there and channeled Obama as he ranted on and on at me" and "I imagined I was the President standing being calm while they threw their tantrums at me".

I think that many women and perhaps many African American people got this more than others. Growing up, I was never allowed to confront a man openly and it is damn hard as an adult to change that pattern. I am not saying that I do not work on it, but pattens put in place in childhood are hard to break out of. And a person with a writer's nature may not be the one to expect instant verbal responses from. Now maybe you are quick witted as well as a fabulous writer, but the quick wit is not always so common in those who have developed the craft of writing.

I see the media assault on Obama's performance as a script.

Look at how they are attacking Biden now for being not even as aggressive as Romney was?

[patrice]

177. I think of what you describe as "preserving my options" in the face of pressure to limit them. . . .

It may be that women, and other people who often experience that kind of pressure, have more of a tendency to engage in the behavior that you describe.

[Tumbulu]

179. When fighting back and standing up for ourselves

and views was punished from the get go, what options does one have?

And I did not even come from a family that thought this way. It was just within the entire culture. The culture shapes so many of our decisions. We think they are ours, but it is an illusion, often.

[patrice]

180. So very deeply true. Which means that sometimes, "standing up" can sometimes look like the opposite

of what it actually is.

I don't claim any answers for anyone to all of this, because sometimes you MUST overtly engage, because your options are going to get limited no matter what you do or don't do anyway.

The only possibility of constructive validity lies in clarity that comes from authentic awareness. Not just blind reaction to the kind of experience referred to here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1516376

[DaveJ]

131. I'm disappointed in what people expect

The Obama campaign has always depended on people evaluating the issues and deciding what's best.

I'm disappointed in some people's infatuation with fast talking liars and calling them "leadership material".

Honestly, I too felt Obama portrayed himself as someone we can depend on to work in our best interest, while Romney exhibited a very disturbing personality.

[lame54]

132. like you i watched it live...

And obama blew it

It's insulting to say that we are being led around by the media

I formed my own opinion

[Silver Gaia]

134. I agree. I did pretty much the same thing.

I thought Romney was an aggressive bully and a liar. I thought he was terrible. Obama seemed calm and competent, and maybe a bit frustrated with the lies and bullying. He seemed like the adult in the room. Romney was a petulant, childish bully with a mean streak. The disrespectful way he spoke to the moderator was disgraceful.

I watched about 5 minutes of the post-debate analysis on MSNBC and then turned it off. I was shocked to hear Tweety, Big Ed, and even Rachel, dissing Obama and saying that Romney won. I thought they must have received their marching orders to make this into a horse race from the head honchos at the network and were falling into line. I was most dismayed to hear this from Rachel, but I guess she likes her paycheck, too.

I didn't see how being a lying bully wins a debate. Still don't.

[cali]

135. wrong. wrong. wrong.

I watched it as it happened and realized fucking immediately- with NO media commentary- what a piss poor job the President did. Then I watched it without sound and I realized he did even worse when it came to body language.

It was not manufactured.

Romney came off as self-assured, confident, friendly and commanding to a lot of people. For most people watching this was their first real introduction to him. Yes, you and I see him for what he is. I assure you most people watching did not.

President Obama came off as listless, he kept his eyes downcast way too much of the time. He did not come off as a leader- and that's what a lot of people are looking for.

What people like you seem to be totally unable to grasp- is that most of viewing public isn't like you and doesn't see things the way you do.


Sorry, I wasn't brainwashed. I saw what I saw. President Obama lost that debate roundly.

[fleabiscuit]

137. I'm sure all of us did

form our own impressions by listening to the little voices in our heads. It's just that some of those voices were more reasoned.

[proud patriot]

136. I saw the debate as a draw too

pundits want a horse race . "don't agonize, organize" pelosi

[Bread and Circus]

138. I haven't posted on DU in years but I have to say I agree with the OP 100%

I had to dig my account info out of the attic just to post to this thread. I don't think it was any sort of conspiracy or anything like that but I feel as if I am living on a different planet than most of the media an apparently 2/3's of Americans who watched the debate.

My sense during the whole thing was that Obama was trying to be sensible respectful, and reasonable. On the other hand, Mitt Romney seemed angry and unpleasant at best... a grasping liar at worst.

[mojowork_n]

139. Exactly what I was thinking.

With the added twist that -- yes, as Americans, -- we're all consumer cattle. We're used
to being driven, herded and stampeded.

...Wait, that's an insult to cattle. Their instinct to stick-together-in-groups has been a huge
part of their survival strategy. As it was for their evolutionary ancestors and predecessors.
Who were connecting, combining together, and cooperating in groups to survive predatory
dinosaurs and reptiles.

A more apt comparison might be to say that Americans are like special, genetically-modified
sunflowers. Instead of turning our faces to the light, though, we've been selected and bred
and force-fed "brand awareness." We turn our faces instinctively to the loudest, shiniest
and most colorful spectacle on the TV.

[fleabiscuit]

140. As soon as I figure out

how to post a big thumbs up on this forum I'll give you one.

[mojowork_n]

156. Hey, you just did. Thanks.

Welcome to D.U.

...I don't believe there is a way to show positive feedback for a thread reply,
except by replying.

[spanone]

141. i think your perception of what ensued is 100% correct. it was astounding....still is.

[freshwest]

142. It's impossible to escape the narrative, it's a single voice repeatedly endlessly.

The lie repeated wears people down, like a force of nature. Few people are capable of resistance. The truth gets run over.

[Cha]

143. I think you described it perfectly What Happened,

Warren! And, I thank you for it.

[Warren Stupidity]

145. Regarding the "yes he did suck" argument.

I absolutely agree that you could have seen the debate that way. I am not saying that the perception you have categorically was programmed by the media assault.

What I am saying is that:
1) there was a coordinated media assault, a "Dean Scream" event.
2) that assault overwhelmed alternative narratives, equally valid, over the subjective issue "who won the debate".

[Chiquitita]

146. It's incredible we

are still even talking about the President's calm performance in the debate. I agree with the OP.

[femrap]

148. Plus MSM wants a

closer race so more $$$ is given to them for ads.

[felix_numinous]

150. President Obama was holding up his end

of the debate and making sense, while Romney was putting on a performance of endless annoying bullshit. I would not have been able to keep my cool, I would have lost it.

President Obama has his own debating style, he held up very well--I think what looks like tameness is him keeping his cool and focusing.

What I would love to see in an alternative universe is the Big Dog and Romney--now that would be a party.

[rudycantfail]

151. Denial

DU is in a fragile state of mind.

[Warpy]

152. I know, it's very frustrating to see Democrats

running around in sheer panic because some pundit dissed their guy.

Romney looked wired to me, like someone had slipped No Doz into his soup.

The media are not our friends, guys. Even Spitzer has jumped on the "Obama passive" bandwagon, shame on him. I won't be tuning in again until after the election when he is no longer crepe hanging but is talking about things he knows about like finiancial chicanery and skullduggery.

Anybody who listens to media at all during the last month of a campaign is just not really bright and will be taking blood pressure pills sooner rather than later.

[unblock]

153. worse: the media didn't REACT to the debate -- it was a PREPARED response.

rmoney's energy and lies and shifts to the center were of course all planned.

obama's reaction was of course predictable. he's always avoided getting even close to the "angry black man" stereotype, so a confrontational challenge of every lie and policy shift on the spot was always going to be most improbable. obama is disciplined and methodical and safeguarding a large lead, so taking a chance on a confrontation without any staffers to research and support his points was extremely unlikely.


consequently, the right-wing did what it ALWAYS does, it sends its spinmeisters out with prepared talking points. all the spinmeisters needed to do was fill in a few blanks with actual quotes or examples, but the meme of a forceful and energetic rmoney and an aloof obama was ALWAYS going to be part of the talking points.


this sort of thing doesn't happen by accident.

it was planned.

[budkin]

154. Most of a debate is about perception

And Obama had the perception of a weak, tired, and uninterested President. And it cost him big time.

[ecstatic]

157. Romney did not win, but he did get away murder (so to speak)

You don't win just because you lied and bullied, but that's beside the point.

The media did go overboard, but in some ways, I understand why Rachel & Co. kept talking about it: Maybe it's because they, like me, really hate everything Romney represents and couldn't stand to see his smug lies go unchallenged. I was pissed way before the debate ended because Lehrer didn't do his f*cking job, which then put the onus on President Obama to challenge Romney on his lies at the debate.

And-- this is where my hatred for Romney may be coloring my judgement--instead of smacking Romney down, Pres. Obama was a little too polite, even smiling and nodding while Romney told his lies.

Yes I know I'm whining and need to get over it, but... prior to that debate, Romney was on the ropes. He was a goner. All we needed was that final knockout punch. Instead, Rmoney was allowed to etch and sketch his way back up in the polls, leaving things close enough to STEAL. As much as I'm ready to move on, it's hard to when I see robme's poll numbers going up everyday.

[Whovian]

158. Well said, Warren S. It is too easy for many to fall into the sheep category.

[jimlup]

159. Rachel Maddow's statement immediately after the debate was telling...

I don't know who won but ...

She's one damn smart woman. If she says "I don't know who won" you had better believe it isn't as obvious nor as clear as the MSM has portrayed. You are absolutely correct.

My personal analysis was pretty close to yours. I did feel like Obama left several points unaddressed and missed a few solid jabs but it wasn't the disaster that the MSM has been screaming about for a whole week. Sure the left was pissed (and had reason to be) but I don't think the "center" should have been. Obama is a centrist democrat. Romney has been campaigning from the position of a far right idealog but during the debate he pretended to be a middle-right realist.

I agree with your analysis and your conclusion - wake the fuck up people!

[DisabledAmerican]

160. A name has been dubbed for them DOOMSAYERS

They want you to believe a different reality that the sky is falling at everything Obama could do wrong.

[stuntcat]

162. Tonight the first ten minutes of Newshour was on & on & on about how disappointing Obama was and

The first 10 min of Newshour was on & on & on & on & ON about how disappointing Obama was and how it had effected the whole country's decision making ability!

I got a great example of why I haven't turned on the tv, even for the news, lately.

But they did have a story at the end about how the elephants in Africa are being wiped out so fast by China and Japan's demand for ivory. That's the kind of news most people in American aren't getting and very few seem to care about. It's funny how many can obsess all day over simple politics, not even any issue they care about, but ignore the biggest environmental events.

[Window]

163. Exactly!

n/t

[rhett o rick]

165. Who are you demanding to "wake the fuck up"??? Are you insinuating that you are awake

and others arent? Are you directing that all that think the President didnt do well?

[Warren Stupidity]

170. Actually I was specifically referring to you.

I'm sorry if I might have given the impression that my essay was directed more generally at the American people as a whole, when really it was all about you.

[rhett o rick]

173. That's strange because I believe the President did well. Why are you cursing at DU members?

Do you think it helps the cause?

[rhett o rick]

172. Posted in the wrong location.

[Skittles]

168. I agree with that assessment

the media acted as if Obama had fainted during the debate

[ProSense]

174. Spot on. n/t

[MFM008]

176. I expected all along

The "LIBERAL" MSM would pound this into a tie, which is about right.

[patrice]

178. People need to do some thinking about how entities like Choice Point have evolved since 2000. nt

Last edited Fri Oct 12, 2012, 10:15 PM - Edit history (1)