Why is Columbus Day still a holiday?

[obamanut2012]

Firstly, not only didn't he discover anything, but the already-inhabited lands he stumbled across weren't even North American, but what's now the DR and Haiti. And, he did stumble across them, or rather a sharp=eyed sailor did: he had no idea where he was going, nor where he was.

Then, he committed rape, torture, and genocide the likes of which the world has never known. He out-Nazied the Nazis, because even the Nazis didn't kill all of the Jews, and rape of Jewish women would end in death for the German man would did it. The local Arawak were basically destroyed.

So, we celebrate a bumbling sailor and sociopath.

Tradition? Well, minstrel shows and women not having the vote were also traditions.

I shouldn't be "PC"? Whatever.

Why not turn it into Native American Heritage Day, or First Nations Day?

[Arctic Dave]

1. First Nations Day, I like it.

[obamanut2012]

6. I do, too!

I like how our neighbors to the North call their native Canadians "First Nations," and think we should, too. They also deserve a day of national recognition imo.

[CreekDog]

50. love it, and in Berkeley, it's Indigenous Peoples' Day

[avebury]

58. I like that idea too! nt

[City Lights]

89. I like it!

[sharp_stick]

2. So that people can

bitch about Columbus Day like it happened last year.

[earthside]

49. Bourgeois protest.

I find this attempt to vilify Columbus one of the more distasteful and counterproductive efforts of a small cohort of 'sophisticate', 'bourgeois' liberals.

While "white guilt" is thankfully a thing of the past for most progressives, there is yet a faction that is never happy unless they find something to whine and cry about -- while excoriating anyone and everyone who might have a different point of view.

Columbus Day has its roots in Italian-American heritage and pride; read this article by Colorado historian Tom Noel in the Denver Post: Columbus Day started in Colorado.

And, no, you don't get to pick who another ethic group chooses as its subject of honor ...

What I particularly dislike is the intellectual and historical dishonesty of the anti-Columbus folks. Christopher Columbus was a product of his time, he as an individual was not necessarily worse than a score of other "discoverers" or explorers throughout history. And, it was inevitable that the 'New World' was eventually going to be bumped into by technologically advancing seafaring Europeans ... sometimes things just are what they are.

The man Columbus becomes the object of demonization because it is politically and socially untenable to address the real reason for much of the inhumanity that the conquistadors brought to central and south America: the Roman Catholic Church. One immediately runs into uncomfortable difficulties because central and south America are still so predominately Roman Catholic. The bourgeois anti-Columbus protestors will find little support in telling the truth about the slaughter of indigenous peoples in the 'New World' on the theological grounds that they were inferior infidels whom priests sanctioned for death and/or slavery -- since the ancestors of those people today are the results of the Hispanic invasion of these two continents.

So, instead, they just call Columbus "worse than Hitler" and feel self-satisfied that they are trying to highlight an ancient injustice. Of course, this changes nothing.

When you write stuff as I have here the invective and the cries of insensitivity are screeching .... but the fact is that most folks in this country don't think of 'Columbus Day' as a major holiday and don't think it is worthy of the controversy that the likes of fraud Ward Churchill et al. try and make of it. Meanwhile, most Americans still regard the day as a moment to remember a particular point in our history and as a time for Italian-Americans to recollect their contributions to the culture and economy of the United States.

[Odin2005]

59. BS. Many Catholic clerics in the New World DEPLORED the horrible treatment...

...of the indigenous peoples.

[earthside]

68. They didn't in the 16th century ....

... when the slaughter and enslavement was actually occurring.

Read about the role of the clergy (esp. Dominican friar Vicente de Valverde) in the Incan conquest.

[Bucky]

127. Columbus Day happens every year.

Hell, we just had one yesterday

[Hoyt]

3. Clearly Columbus is not worthy of celebration.

[cthulu2016]

4. Or syphyllis day

[no_hypocrisy]

5. What I want to know is why it matters whether Columbus was Jewish.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/20/opinion/garcia-columbus-jewish/index.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/22/christopher-columbus-jewish_n_1534928.html

http://khouse.org/articles/1996/109/

[slackmaster]

8. That would give some of our members even more reason to despise him

[eShirl]

75. well, it's interesting in the context of Spain at the time

wouldn't you say?

[slackmaster]

7. It gives a few people something to complain about between 4th of July fireworks and Thanksgiving

Take heart - In just three more weeks we'll all be entertained by religious fundamentalists trying to take the fun out of Halloween.

[obamanut2012]

9. I need to reread some anti Halloween Chick tracts

In anticipation.

My favorite is the one where the Druids carried pumpkins (which didn't exist in Ireland and the UK then) and killed people on Halloween. Which of course is totally made up.

[slackmaster]

13. Jack even has an index page of Halloween-related tracts for your convenience!

http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractbykeyword.asp?subject=Halloween

[obamanut2012]

16. OOOOO!

[Kindly Refrain]

137. So the Salem witch thing is true.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1078/1078_01.asp

Only the girls weren't possessed by Satan for the reasons that they thought they were.

LOL!

[4th law of robotics]

32. Maybe we can have offense day

that explicitly celebrates everything you find offensive.

So it would naturally be different for everyone.

But we could all join together in the spirit of first world bitchery.

[obamanut2012]

36. I personally think genocide is something to be "offended" by

[4th law of robotics]

38. We aren't celebrating genocide

we're celebrating the discovery of the America's without which the USA would not exist.

Given that this is the USA that makes sense.

It's like the people who claim any support for the founding fathers is explicit support for slavery. No . . . . it's true they had slaves but we're celebrating their other achievements.

Whatever else you think of him he was A) the first European to do it, B) successful and C) taking an incredible personal risk.

I suppose some people can be offended by anything though. Did you know that nazi scientists helped NASA? So yeah, everyone who cheered when Neil Armstrong landed on the moon was cheering for the Holocaust. Bet you didn't know that.

[obamanut2012]

40. Columbus Day is celebrating genocide and the master of that genocde

And, since Columbus 1. wasn't the first European to "discover America, and 2. didn't even land anywhere close to America, and 3. thought he was in another entire part of the world, the holiday is stupid as hell even without all the rape and torture and theft and murder.

But, as usual, you know all of that.

I LOVE how you are bringing up Operation Paperclip which is also something I bet I know about than you do.

There is enough straw in your post to protect a whole large field of corn.

And, with that, I am done feeding your posts.

[4th law of robotics]

43. You seem to be an expert on everything

literally every point I've made has followed with the claim "I know more about that than you". Evidence of that claim has been less forthcoming.

But I guess everyone is an expert on the internet. Let me guess, you got your PhD in Viking and Columbus and NASA studies and anything else that comes up later?

And, since Columbus 1. wasn't the first European to "discover America, and 2. didn't even land anywhere close to America, and 3. thought he was in another entire part of the world, the holiday is stupid as hell even without all the rape and torture and theft and murder.

He was the first one to bring back evidence of his discovery and actually follow through on it. The first guy to die at the north pole is less interesting than the first guy to come back with documentation of it.

And the Hispaniola is no where near America? Better call up the cartographers. They got it all wrong. I'm sure you're an expert on that as well.

If he thought he landed in Atlantis (which I'm sure you wrote one of your many dissertations on) that wouldn't change the fact that he made it to the Americas.

[Drahthaardogs]

79. No it is not.

Columbus Day was recognized as a day to Celebrate Italian Americans, much like St. Patrick's Day is here for the Irish. Columbus was the most famous Italian so they tied the day to him.

[MgtPA]

10. When I was a kid in the '60s, we always had Columbus Day off from school.

My daughter attends public school, and she doesn't have Columbus Day off, and I don't think she ever did. I was really surprised to see that Columbus Day is still a Federal holiday.

It used to be that public schools were closed on all Federal holidays; seems like the schools figured out that Columbus wasn't someone to be celebrated. I don't know why it's still a Federal holiday.

[pstokely]

128. Some schools use federal holidays to make up snow days

nt

[wilt the stilt]

11. Joe Columbo day?

It's for Guido.

[KansDem]

29. How about just "Columbo Day?"

We could have the day off to wear rumpled clothing, smoke cigars, and try coming up with a first name for him!

[-..__...]

12. I'm willing to cut the guy some slack...

otherwise I might not be getting the day off with holiday pay.

[slackmaster]

14. Lucky you! I haven't had Columbus Day off since 1989

The last full year when I was working for a retail bank.

Medical IT doesn't honor Columbus Day.

[CreekDog]

52. do you support the USA living up to all it's promised to Native American tribes?

doing so will cost more than it does now.

[ywcachieve]

15. I think Columbus Day should be halted immediately.

When I was a child, I didn't know any better, but when I became an adult and found out all of the atrocities he brought on the natives, I was appalled that this country celebrates that man.

[slackmaster]

17. His work helped pave the way for millions of families to escape oppression in Europe

Including mine.

[MgtPA]

23. My family escaped oppression in Europe too,

but I wouldn't give Columbus any credit for America being a safe haven 300+ years after his death.

Columbus brought oppression with him.

[obamanut2012]

42. I think Jamestown, teh Lost Colony, and the MA settlements did that

As well as the Dutch in PA.

[4th law of robotics]

44. And these would have happened without someone from Europe

coming the America's and returning with the tale?

[slackmaster]

47. On my mother's side I had an ancestor at Jamestown and some in early Pennsylvania as well

They never slaughtered any Native Americans or owned slaves. Nor did my father's ancestors who immigrated from Germany in the 1870s.

[CreekDog]

56. the tens of millions of Native Americans that died afterwards made room for them

by the way, if anyone thinks you only take the side of white people here, your post along with lots of others, is the reason why.

[slackmaster]

62. I'm not denying the atrocities that were committed against Native Americans

I'm saying that looking only at history that way is simplistic.

by the way, if anyone thinks you only take the side of white people here, your post along with lots of others, is the reason why.

It's not a matter of one "side" against another here, CreekDog. We're all in this together now.

[CreekDog]

100. You aren't balanced at all, you didn't bring up Native Americans ONCE

AND now that you have mentioned it, it is ONLY to say to everyone that they shouldn't let that cloud other people's impressions of Columbus.

And NO, we aren't all in this together. Some of us are troubled by some things in our history with respect to people of color and indigenous peoples, and some people, apparently yourself, don't even want to talk about it or perhaps worse, the idea rarely crosses your mind.

So, NO, you and I aren't on the same side.

[slackmaster]

116. Plenty of other peole have done so already

...Some of us are troubled by some things in our history with respect to people of color and indigenous peoples, and some people, apparently yourself, don't even want to talk about it or perhaps worse, the idea rarely crosses your mind.

So, NO, you and I aren't on the same side.

Being troubled about the past, over which you have no control, doesn't fix anything. It's your choice.

[CreekDog]

119. Now you're claiming that other people posted so you wouldn't need to

yet you did chime in to argue with those people.

so actually you are trying to silence or argue with the point of view...

it's just that, you don't want to be seen as doing that. but you are.

we got nothing in common.

[4th law of robotics]

66. I think it's worth noting that disease did most of that

which would have happened (given the understanding of disease at the time) regardless of whether they came as vicious conquerors or peaceful traders.

Maybe without being pushed back following that disease induced apocalypse they could have recovered after many many generations.

But the deaths of tens of millions would have happened anyway.

[Riftaxe]

114. "tens of millions of Native Americans"

Your knowledge of the historical population of Native Americans is pathetically ignorant.

[CreekDog]

118. And your knowledge must be more pathetically ignorant than mine, since you posted no numbers

in response.

[Riftaxe]

122. Think of it as a learning exercise

Go look it up yourself, on the internet or grab any anthropology book covering the region of North America.

You are the one making yourself look like a complete idiot by inventing tens of millions of people that never existed and claiming they were slaughtered.

It is not my job to teach you the fucking basics of US history.

[CreekDog]

123. nobody's learning anything from you

Mr. lectures with "go look it up".

[NOLALady]

61. Some of my ancestors came here to escape the wars and oppression in Europe.

But, his work also paved the way for millions of African families to be oppressed and enslaved, including mine.

[tama]

125. You ancestors didn't escape European oppression

they brought it with them to new continent.

[ywcachieve]

135. I still disapprove of the nation celebrating such a brute.

Who brought venereal disease, rape, and murder to the natives.

[Tom Rinaldo]

18. It needs to be reframed significantly

Columbus Day commemorates an extremely historic event. It should be celebrated as World Culture Day because starting with that era of exploration all the peoples of the world began to become aware of and grasp that we are all sharing this planet together, for better or for worse. And it has been both.

[HipChick]

19. Christoper Columbus was a damm blasted liar..

[Mnemosyne]

20. I never celebrate Genocidal Maniac Day. nt

[DippyDem]

21. Duh the stupid it hurts.... It should be Mormon Day. Jesus Christ came to America 2000 years ago!

[Enrique]

22. because he wrote the Constitution

or was it the Declaration of Independence? Either way, he was a great American.

[gollygee]

24. If it makes you feel any better

Every year at school, my daughter learns the real story about Columbus, and the story of what was done to Native Americans. It is used as a teachable moment to discuss the history of how Native Americans were treated rather than being celebrated as a day to honor Columbus. I think there has been and continues to be a shift as to how this holiday is treated. A name change would be good.

[Lilyeye]

80. When I was a kid in the 90s

We were taught the fairy tale version of Columbus. In the pictures he was blonde haired and blue eyed and the nicest guy to the Natives. Talk about being shocked when 10th grade history class came around.

[coalition_unwilling]

25. For that matter, why is 'Thanksgiving' still a holiday? The heirs of the Native Americans

have little or nothing to be thankful for.

[jberryhill]

63. .

http://www.mohegansun.com

[4th law of robotics]

67. For that matter why is Christmas a holiday?

Considering all that religion has done to certain groups.

Or the 4th of July, which is directly responsible for every wrong thing America has ever done.

Or flag day, how many people have been killed in the name of some flag over the years?

Or Presidents day, presidents are also responsible for all the horrible things the US has done.

Or . . .

/find one purely clean holiday.

//what about Mother's day? Yes by all means celebrate the people who brought Hitler and Stalin and Joel Olsteen in to the world.

[Missycim]

101. They should have a national whining day

for all those that can find fault in anything American has ever done.

[4th law of robotics]

104. Wailing day and Teeth Gnashing hour

are long overdue.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. He was a slave trader and kidnapper of humans he sold into bondage en mass

One of the most greedy, vicious, murderous people in the history of the planet, if anyone is the father of the Trans Atlantic slave trade, Columbus is that man.
If European arrival in North America is the thing celebrated, we should celebrate the Vikings for doing that. The Irish may have, as well as Phonecians and Africans, also sailed to the 'new world' long before the Columbus piracy.

[obamanut2012]

27. The Vikings and Celtic priests

Viking Day would be cool.

[4th law of robotics]

34. So we shouldn't celebrate Columbus because he was a murderer and sociopath, BUT . . .

Viking Day would be cool?

You do know what the vikings were all about? If they had had the economic base that later explorers (and brought the same diseases) had to pursue their expansionism we'd all be speaking some bastardized version of Scandinavian and the Indians would be just as massacred.

/I remember some anecdote detailing their first landings in Greenland. Apparently the skraelings (weak sickly people) would bleed if you stabbed them some. Bleed and die if you stabbed them a lot. That was one of the first things they thought of recording and defined their interactions with the natives. Apparently diplomacy to the vikings involved controlled experiments on how much stabbing it took to dispatch the foreigners.

[obamanut2012]

39. Yes, I know more about "Vikings" than the stereotypes of them

I also bet I know more about their landing and settlements than you do.

I also stated in my OP I believe we should have a First Nations Day or Native American Heritage Day instead of any type of "Discovery of America Day." You, of course, already know that, but want to make a joke about "Viking Day." Typical.

[4th law of robotics]

41. Did you not say "Viking day would be cool"

Was that someone else?

39. Yes, I know more about "Vikings" than the stereotypes of them

I cited an actual historical episode detailing their interactions with a new people. So . . .how is that merely a stereotype?

Do you really believe the Vikings would have treated the natives better than the Spanish if they had the same resources and decided to colonize the new world?

I also bet I know more about their landing and settlements than you do.

And how did they treat people in areas they wanted?

I also stated in my OP I believe we should have a First Nations Day or Native American Heritage Day instead of any type of "Discovery of America Day."

That's great and all except we're the product of that discovery, not of the first nations.

You, of course, already know that, but want to make a joke about "Viking Day."

Is this some sort of meta joke? You freaking said it. I responded to what you said. What is this I don't even . . .

[Drahthaardogs]

82. What about St. Patrick's Day?

I bet the folks in Northern Ireland are too keen on celebrating the Saint who converted them to Catholicism. Columbus Day is about celebrating Italian Americans. If you chose to make it about something else, that is your choice.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

96. What about St. Brendan's Day?

Since he (in some versions of the story) may have landed in America.

Or he didn't, but it's a good story.



Is St Patrick reviled in Northern Ireland? Since he pre-dates Martin Luther by a thousand and some years, it may not make sense to link him (or his legend) to any recent troubles. Some major events must have occurred after the Protestant Reformation.

Druids, like Cro-Magnons, are not around to tell their side of the story.

[Drahthaardogs]

99. The Romans wiped out the Druids and the Celts

drove them out of their native lands and up into Ireland, the last bastion of the Celts. In fact, had Ireland been a bit more hospitable and determined more economically valuable, the Romans likely would have wiped out the Celts entirely.

St. Patrick was a Roman, he stripped the pagan Irish of their historical ways and converted them to Roman Catholicism. Martin Luther hell, St. Patrick took the Celt's heritage away from them. Turned them into good Roman Catholics.

In the modern era, the Irish vs. the Northern Irish (and English to some extent) were indeed bloody battles. St. Patrick's Day in Ireland (if you have ever been there) is a CATHOLIC holiday, and a very solemn one at that. Maybe not quite so much today, but thirty years ago, it was, and outside of Dublin, mostly still is a Catholic only holiday. They do not drink green beer and party like drunken asses in the streets. Only the Americans do that.

I think there is more to my St. Patrick/Christopher Columbus observation than you want to admit.

[OriginalGeek]

113. To be fair

I am willing to be a green-beer drinking drunken ass on most any day.

[Drahthaardogs]

117. Yeah me too, but I draw the line at beer out of a green bottle.

I love Stella Artois beer. That green shit on St. Patrick's Day is usually Millers.. I hate Millers beer. MGD uhg.

[OriginalGeek]

120. You'll get no argument from me on any of that!

[Scootaloo]

115. Well, likely not in fact

Especially on the point of disease. See, here's how it works.

The Vinland colony was basically five times removed from Europe.

The Norse had little "lasting" contact with the rest of the Eurasian continent. Those who did have such long-term contact were usually settlers who just didn't go back to Scandinavia. Scandinavia was thus relatively isolated. It was also thinly populated; these two conditions made epidemic diseases less likely in these territories than in mainland Eurasia. Not impossible, just less likely.

Now from this pool, you send a population out to the Orkneys and the Faroes. These places are even more isolated, and the nature of ship travel at the time means anyone with a disease would likely either get over it or die en route.

from that population (and a little bit of captured population from Ireland) you start Iceland. You really don't get more isolated than Iceland's population, to be honest. There's disease still, mainly due to close living with hte livestock, but again, nothing on the scale you find in mainland Europe.

Now, from Iceland... you start the Greenland colony. The only reason it's less isolated than Iceland is that the Inupiat were already there. Now the thing with Greenalnd is that it's a shitty place to live, even back then when it was at a really warm point. The harsh conditions basically meant that the livestock went extinct, aside from goat. The pigs, the fowl, the cattle, these critters just couldn't handle it, and since they are the major reservoirs for human diseases, the Greenland colony was effectively the most disease-free population with European descent at the time.

Now, you take those people... and they sail to Labrador to start a homestead there. Again, ship travel winnows out any potential vectors, and you get a population for whom poxes, influenzas, and the like are unpleasant myths. Living next to them are some pretty sturdy, resilient people, and apparently enough of them to beat the shit out of the Vikings when the Norse went too far with their interactions.

Rather than send for reinforcements, the Vinland colony said "hey, these guys want us dead. let's go back to Greenland," and did so.

So, you filter the Norse population five times through laborious ship travel, "clean" environments, and lack of disease reservoirs... And pair it with an eminently practical worldview ("people want to kill us, maybe we should fuck off before they do that" is a fairly sensible position) and you get a very different result.

Even if through some fluke, there had been massive interaction between Scandinavia and the Americas, the outcome would not likely resemble what we have now; the lack of disease is a big deal, and frankly, the Norse technology at the time was on par with the native technology (better materials, but both sides are shooting arrows and stabbing with lances). There would not have been massive native depopulation, any more than there was massive native depopulation when Europe tried its hand in India and eastern Asia; lots of conflict and strife, but outright eradication and recolonization wouldn't have been in the cards.

Hell, frankly the whole shebang would be wildly different if the French had kept up their efforts, or if the Americans had lost the revolution, or if everybody had just ignored Spain's discovery.it's "one of those things" that can spawn a million different Alternate History fictions, all with a basis in observed fact. if only condition X were changed, who the hell knows what would have happened.

Hell, if Tecumseh's little brother hadn't been a doofus, the United States might end at the juncture of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers.

[ProfessorGAC]

131. A Nit To Pick

You seem to be assuming that survivors of these serious microbial conditions didn't get them simply because they were never exposed.

Isn't it more likely that they had better immune systems, but still carried the diseases or retroviruses that would still infect those cultures never exposed to them and had no such strengthened immunity?

I understand and like your approach, but i would have reached the opposite conclusion.
GAC

[Scootaloo]

134. Disease doesn't work like that.

For most diseases, you don't remain infectious after your immune system "beats" it. Even if you have absolutely no immune system, you won't catch smallpox from a guy who had it years ago.

For a disease to persist, it needs harbors, stable populations that serve as hosts. Rabies with bats, influenza with waterfowl, rinderpest (smallpox / chickenpox) with cattle, that sort of thing. And for a disease to spread, it needs large populations living in close quarters (which the three aforementioned animals do, as humans frequently do as well)

By the time the Norse (Well, descendants of the Norse) reached Vinland, there were no livestock to serve as harbors. The populations had been winnowed and pared down over several stops and sea voyages. And the people they first encountered also had no livestock and apparently lived in small villages (Even during the warm period, Labrador was a pretty hard place to live, I imagine.)

With the sailing technology of the time, the northerly route by northerly people, and the frequent island-hopping between point A and point B, it seems likely that a medieval period colonization of Norse would have been very different from the early Renaissance colonization from Spain / Africa (not willing colonization on the latter's part, granted). Odds are such an attempt by the Norse would have either failed due to the natives being a strong force to reckon with (as the Vinland colony found out) or it would simply melt into said Indian population (as happened everywhere else the Norse settled that had a native population).

Now, an interesting thing about that whole "disease needs a large population to spread," is that it can dispel one of the longest myths of Indian peoples in America. In school, and in popular culture, Indians are portrayed as nomads, living off the land, in small villages or bands. However, if this were the case; small bands living in the middle of the woods - then they would have simply died from these diseases. Outbreaks would come in shallow-ranged fits and starts where contact with the foreigners occurred, and burn out quickly.

That's not what happened.

Instead, these diseases swept the western hemisphere like a prairie fire. Save for a few isolated areas (the far north, the west coast, Patagonia, etc.) smallpox and influenza swept in like crazy, and the consistent report is nine out of ten people died from it.

For instance, the Inka empire. Pizarro was only able to conquer the Inka because they had just spent twenty years in a civil war, fighting over succession. What happened? The emperor and most of his court had died from smallpox... twenty years before ANY contact with or knowledge of the Europeans. A measles epidemic took his designated heir shortly after that, and things fell to fighting between his other sons and military commanders. measles outbreaks continued to plague the empire. And yet, when Pizarro landed, twenty years later, this nation, which had spent twenty years dying of disease and warfare... was still a fairly cohesive nation, and the population was large enough that Pizarro basically shits himself in terror at the thought of having to face them.

The Americas were thickly peopled when the Spanish first arrived... and the Spanish recorded such. People weren't living in huts in the woods, chasing deer and singing with all the colors of the wind. They lived in towns and villages in the midst of extensively farmed land, and identified themselves as the collected people of nations, kingdoms, and empires.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

28. While he was guilty of all those things,

and maybe more, no matter who landed here from the European continent would have done the same. So I can't really beat up Columbus too bad though don't think there should be a holiday anymore for him. That was how they ALL thought at that time. If we did have a holiday today it should be 'Colombo Day' much more appropriate for the 21st Century!

[FloridaJudy]

97. They were probably driven off

By the original inhabitants. The Vikings' habit of killing any "Skraelings" (non-Vikings) they ran across did not endear them to the natives. That, and the fact the voyage was far too difficult to keep any new colony in frequent contact with the home country discouraged them from setting up a permanent settlement.

Some have also hypothesized that the weather changed, making the crossing even more hazardous. Yet another reason to stick closer to home.

[tama]

124. Not all who came from European continent

are "Europeans". Finns (not Indo-European people) who came with the first Swedish colony had a way of life similar to natives.

[Vidar]

30. Mainly inertia.

[Spider Jerusalem]

35. He discovered the New World which is actually more than North America

and Hispaniola and the Caribbean islands are regarded as being a subregion of North America. The lands of the New World were suspected by Europeans but not conclusively discovered (apart from the Vikings' Vinland which was unknown outside Scandinavia). This was a pretty big thing which changed the course of world history; if Columbus hadn't done it, someone else, with Spanish or Portuguese backing, would have. The outcome would have not been materially different for the native inhabitants regardless; their lack of immunity to European diseases, notably smallpox, made their deaths in large numbers inevitable; the crusading nature of the Catholic religion of Spain made the auto-da-fe and forced conversion of the heathen just as inevitable (and Spain was the dominant European naval power of the period, so the early explorers would have been Spaniards or in Spanish pay even if not Columbus).

[Starry Messenger]

45. It should be "Indigenous People's Day"

A lot of people out here already have repurposed it with that name.

[HopeHoops]

46. No fucking clue.

[librechik]

48. facts only mean what the Republicans mean, since 1968. n/t

[demosincebirth]

51. A paid holiday is a paid holiday!

[Silver Swan]

69. Columbus Day

Was not a paid Federal holiday until 1971.

I remember because I began working for the Federal government in 1968, and I recall that we were happy to get another paid holiday in 1971. That was the same year the "Monday holiday" rules began.

(Veteran's Day was a Monday holiday from 1971-1974. It returned to being November 11, in 1975, because veteran's groups opposed observing it on other than the original Armistice Day date.)

[demosincebirth]

71. As a Teamster, I got it paid in starting in 1959.

[MADem]

53. Happy Beringia Land Bridge Immigration Day!!!

We are ALL immigrants...the people who walked over from Siberia got here first!

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120711134710.htm

[Odin2005]

54. Italian-Americans view it as "their day".

[southernyankeebelle]

64. Dang right we do. We are a very proud people and have done alot for this country. You

can say what you want but me and my family are proud to celebrate this day.

[Drahthaardogs]

81. D'accordo.

Il giorno di Cristoforo Colombo e' molto importante per tutti l'italiano americanos. Mi piace molto!

[southernyankeebelle]

90. I can't read Italian but yes Columbus day is important for Italian Americans. thank you.

Did I read it kinda of right. I am sad my own mother who was from Italian never taught us to read the language. Now I wish I had. But I do try to keep up what is going on back in the old country. Things are going well for my relatives and am terribly worried about them.

[Drahthaardogs]

103. Your reading is pretty good.

I never knew how to write it or read it either, but I learned quickly with the internet. Speaking is fairly easy, but there are some dialects that are very hard to understand. I personally love the Ambruzzo dialect, but I speak like those from Milan, since that is where my family is from.

[southernyankeebelle]

108. Well my Aunt and 2 cousins live in Parma and the rest live in Naples. I can speak the

dialect of Naples. Love love love Naples. The best pizzas come from Naples. My grandfather was a musician and played on the radio until Mussolini came to power and he was pushed off the radio. I loved him dearly even though he died when I was young but he left a strong impression on me. I feel I was so lucky to be born in my family. I just love the way the people enjoy life. I remember having to change trains in Milan once and it was a damn nightmare. But Italy is a beautiful country and I don't care where you go you always have fun.


By the way have you gotten on Huffington Post and seen the new country they added? They added Italy.

[LeftyMom]

85. Most of us aren't racist fuckwits, so no.

[KurtNYC]

93. Yes. It wasn't celebrated until 1906 and was not a national holiday until 1937.

The turn of the century was a big period of Italian immigration to the US.

In 1937 on the other hand, Italy was the model of a fascist state, which DuPont and others wanted to replicate here.

[99Forever]

55. Agreed. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

57. To piss off DUers. And it works every year (nt)

[Matariki]

60. Yep. Maybe Arawak Remembrance Day.

For the entire population of "Hispaniola" genocided by Columbus in under 50 years.

[LanternWaste]

65. We should aslo change the names of the days of the week...

As the days of the week, and the number of days per week Vettius Valens) were also based on, and named for religious persona and mythological figures associated with slave-owning, war-like, imperialistic cultures of the past, they too should be changed.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other...



Unless of course, one accepts the process of acculturation... but it seems not many do.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

70. All this pissing and moaning...

and NOT ONE OF YOU has mentioned "Sweetest Day"

I want to drown the inventor of "Sweetest Day" in the vomit that I upchuck every time I think about it. You want to talk genocide? I want to kill the guy and his entire family. Known associates. His barber. Pets. Everything.

Whew....

I feel better now.

[WinkyDink]

72. "....rape of Jewish women would end in death for the German man would did it." SOURCE? And comparing

1492 to the civilized world of 1942 is ASININE. The Holocaust was the first POST-ENLIGHTENMENT INDUSTRIALIZED, MECHANIZED GENOCIDE.

[obamanut2012]

112. They would be race traitors -- well known fact

So, what are you saying about the Columbus Massacre and Columbus Day?

[oberliner]

73. Italian-American Heritage Day

It has mainly turned into a day for Italian Americans to celebrate their heritage with parades and celebrations.

[WinkyDink]

74. What is has "mainly turned into" IS A DAY OFF FROM SCHOOL AND WORK.

[oberliner]

86. Depends where you live

In some places the parades are a pretty big deal.

NYC, for instance.

[pstokely]

129. School was open here

but state offices were closed

[earthside]

92. It always was.

Columbus Day started in Colorado
by Tom Noel; Denver Post-September 26, 2010

[4th law of robotics]

76. Why is Valentines Day still a holiday?

Firstly there is no historical verification that there was a single St. Valentine. Additionally the celebration was a deliberate attempt to supersede an existing native holiday and replace it with Judeo-Christian imperialism.

Second it is explicitly supportive of the rape culture. A baby shoots some non-consenting individual with an arrow and then they "magically" fall in love (and presumably act out that love) with some other individual they would never engage in sex acts with? Yeah, that's date rape. Some baby wielding roofie-tipped arrows is hardly an appropriate holiday to force on our youth.

And thirdly the entire heart symbol is a graphic objectification of a bent over woman's buttocks. That is clear objectification and should not be tolerated.

So we celebrate a holiday intending to replace existing native beliefs with worship of a possibly fictitious individual in support of date-rape and the sexual objectification of women.

Tradition? Well, minstrel shows and women not having the vote were also traditions.

I shouldn't be "PC"? Whatever.

Why not turn it into consensual sex day, or opposition to sexual objectification of women day?

[LanternWaste]

87. I believe that's simply the process of acculturation.

"a deliberate attempt to supersede an existing native holiday and replace it with Judeo-Christian imperialism..."


I believe that's simply the process of acculturation. Happens in every cross-culture phenomena, from cuisine, to music, and from holidays to family traditions.

[LaurenG]

88. It really was a massacre and since Old Columbus didn't land here I don't get it.

and what the heck does Valentines day have to do with Columbus?

[Kingofalldems]

106. It's not a holiday so your entire post

seems to be about some sort of agenda you have.

[4th law of robotics]

107. Sure it is

perhaps not a federal one. But it is a holiday by the definition of the word. I'm sorry if you didn't realize that and failing to understand felt the need to act out in a snarky manner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiday

/Hanukkah isn't a federally recognized holiday either. But some people believe it is significant.

[Kingofalldems]

109. Not a holiday in any sense--no one gets the day off

Looks like you want to get your 100th or so post on the same subject in a thread which has nothing to do with said subject.

[4th law of robotics]

110. The definition of a holiday is not that you don't have to work

I suggest you read the link I provided so you will not be mistaken on this any further.

[pstokely]

130. Why do they have school on Veterans Day?

?

[Wetzelbill]

77. Bingo

[LaurenG]

78. One of my facebook friends is really pounding this home

I encourage everyone to research what Columbus really did. Here is a great post on truth out.

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/11990-reflections-on-columbus-day

[One_Life_To_Give]

83. Transformational

The realization by the Europeans of a Continents resources guarded by a technologically primitive society had far reaching implications. Eventually somebody would have made the trip. Given societal values of the time period it probably wouldn't of mattered who or from which European power the initial discovery had been made. The results of Europe claiming the continent for itself and directing it's peoples to Colonize and Plunder wouldn't of changed.

[Nye Bevan]

84. Should Christmas Day be a Federal Holiday?

The Federal Government shuts down to celebrate the birth of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Everyone OK with that?

[joelz]

91. another way to to have a celebration

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

[Cleita]

94. Or we could call it European Invasion of the Western Hemisphere day. n/t

[KurtNYC]

95. Columbus Day was not a national holiday until 1937.

In 1937 Italy was the number one fascist country in the world.

&feature=related

Is Columbus Day a fascist holiday?

[Retrograde]

98. Because changing it would require Congress to do something?

Aren't federal holidays proclaimed by Congress? I can't see Boehner doing anything to change the status quo.

[hrmjustin]

102. We just love parades here in NY. that is why it is a holiday in ny

[David Zephyr]

105. K&R.

Genocidal.

[Scootaloo]

111. Er, point of order...

First, he landed in the Antilles initially. He went on to colonize Hispaniola (currently Haiti / Dominican Republic.)

To say these places "aren't north American" is simply bad geography. The Caribbean, along with Mexico and central America al lthe way to the panama Isthmus, are geographically (and geologically) North America.

Now if you want to make an argument on biology, or anthropology, you might have a case; the Caribbean islands were populated by northward migration of humans and biota. But by this argument, Bermuda is part of Virginia.

[toddwv]

121. I agree. Columbus Day doesn't make sense.

We should do away with Columbus day and make election day a national holiday.

[prete_nero]

126. Holidays...

Holdays...proving that regardless of the holiday in question someone will be offended and someone else will be offended at the person being offended.

Stick this in your hat...in South Dakota we don't celebrate Columbus Day, instead its Native American Day. Those who only want a day off still get it. Others who care about the subject of use it as a chance to think about or teach others about the history of the many different native peoples. Here it usually focuses on the Dakota/Lakota/Nakota (Sioux).
Considering how little most people really know about that segment of our history and society I see no problem attempting to spread a little knowledge about it even if it is because of an 'extra day off'.

My opinion...holidays are what they have become, not what they started as. Christmas, from what I understand, started as a pagan holiday, turned into a festival "party really hard" type holiday, morphed into the victorian 'traditional' style then most recently changed into a commercialist-buy-as-much-crap-as-possible holiday.
Point being whatever the original meaning of Columbus Day it has changed for a majority of people to a day specifically about the person Columbus, not about Italian heritage. As such it is celebrating what he was and what he did...I think it is undeniable that he wasn't exactly a saint to the native peoples.

Oh and since when are the Italians and the Irish the only ones with a holiday recognizing them? Last I checked there are other huge segments of the population that are neither...
Lets call them what they really are:

Hangover Day
Don't be a racist dbag Day
Founder's Day
Rememberance Day
Birthday
Union Day
One of many but not first finders of a (not) new land Day
War Victim's Day
Food/Football Day
Buy Me Stuff Day

...just a thought

[yellowcanine]

132. It doesn't make sense but I will take it anyway.

I am not ready to give up the only holiday in October. Call it First Nation's Day, First American's Day, or something like that, but let's keep the holiday.

[yellowcanine]

133. While we are on the topic, why is Thanksgiving on Thursday, making the day after a holiday?

Why don't we move Thanksgiving to Friday?

[slackmaster]

136. Because taking time off of work is good for people

This really isn't very hard to figure out.

[yellowcanine]

138. I am all for that, but moving Thanksgiving to Friday would

allow another holiday Friday earlier in the year to give us an additional three day weekend.

[slackmaster]

139. How about William Tecumseh Sherman's birthday?

Or Bombing of Hiroshima Day?

[yellowcanine]

140. 21st Amendment Day First Friday in December.

Not earlier in the year but worthy of celebrating. And it could be the new "Black Friday." Perfect.

21st Amendment (outlawing Prohibition) was proposed on Dec 6 1932 and ratified on Dec 5, 1933.

Bars could serve drinks at 1933 prices. People could dress up in period costume. Party time!

[Trenton]

141. Indigenous Peoples Day

As others have pointed out, there is a strong movement for re-branding the holiday "Indigenous Peoples Day". I think it is much more meaningful and appropriate to celebrate and recognize the incredible cultural wealth and diversity and the countless human lives that the world lost instead of the initial destroyer of the same.

The organization I work for funds indigenous organizations around the world as they struggle for social justice and economic self-determination. We started a petition on Change.org urging the U.N. to stand true to their own Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Around the world, the rights of indigenous peoples are still being violated, stolen and ignored. The aggressors have shifted from European "explorers" to multinational corporations and the corrupt governments that are in bed with them, but the process continues to this day.