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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat is a maroon?
Bugs Bunny often quips "what a maroon", taken to be his idiosyncratic way of saying "moron". He is sometimes quoted on DU.
The word, however, refers to "a fugitive black slave of the West Indies and Guiana in the 17th and 18th centuries; also a descendant of such a slave."; runaway black slave, wild runaway slave, the beast who cannot be tamed, or living on mountaintops.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/maroon-community
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maroon#:~:text=1%20%3A%20a%20person%20who%20is,Sentences%20Learn%20More%20about%20maroon
Like a lot of cartoons of a certain age, the humor of bugs is sometimes crude and racist, even if a bit obscure.
Sanity Claws
(21,852 posts)I love those old cartoons but I doubt that the writers of Bugs Bunny knew how the word was used in the 17th and 18th century.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... the writers of those cartoons were much more knowledgeable, literate and sophisticated than is sometimes supposed.
In any case, this is an FYI for DUers, not an attempt to cancel Bugs.
Towlie
(5,328 posts)
?
It's a reference to this:
It was even featured in This Modern World by Tom Tomorrow.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)Often quoted on DU. Innocently, of course.
tinrobot
(10,916 posts)I suspect someone read it/wrote it wrong, the director thought it was funny and kept it.
Animators tend to do that. They're rather juvenile.
(source: am animator)
SCantiGOP
(13,873 posts)But Ive read that Daffy Duck started as a black caricature, but they liked the character so they toned it down.
Raine
(30,540 posts)not the 17/18 ... language evolves over time.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,836 posts)I don't think any racial meaning was intended.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... I think it was a play on Bugs Brooklyn accent and a deliberate pun.
Response to reACTIONary (Reply #11)
Hekate This message was self-deleted by its author.
2naSalit
(86,775 posts)Raine
(30,540 posts)Hekate
(90,793 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)Smh.
ChoppinBroccoli
(3,784 posts)That was the late 1800s, early 1900s. Not sure if that just referred to the colors they wore or if it actually meant something more.
Progressive Jones
(6,011 posts)I played on a youth hockey team with that name. Our sweaters were maroon and white.
LuvNewcastle
(16,856 posts)to have more than one meaning, often several. And even though they played a lot of Al Jolson music in those cartoons, I'm pretty sure they didn't have Bugs saying "maroon" as a reference to runaway slaves.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... you may be right. I think the writers of bugs were a lot more into word play with slang and accents and knew what they were doing. Just my hunch.
LuvNewcastle
(16,856 posts)They were studying the OED on their breaks while they did all of those cartoons the old, hard way. They had plenty of extra time for the study of obscure definitions of common words.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... and they were not writing for children. The cartoons played along side the serious movies of the time, and were written for a wide audience.
Response to reACTIONary (Reply #23)
LuvNewcastle This message was self-deleted by its author.
treestar
(82,383 posts)racism as a motive for the writer.
At least look into it rather than assuming.
Cirque du So-What
(25,973 posts)The cartoon writers didnt even know this definition of the word, which had slipped into obscurity 300 years earlier. There are more concrete examples of racism in cartoons of that era. This is just overreach.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... but I think the creators of Bugs were far more knowledgeable about slang, word origins and word play than they are given credit for.
Cirque du So-What
(25,973 posts)Wrong, though, it is.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... I'll leave out the "just".
I think some research into the word's usage over time is feasible, but given the other meanings of "marron" it wouldn't be straightforward.
Cirque du So-What
(25,973 posts)The character Bugs Bunny is prone to malapropisms. Maroon is merely a mispronunciation of moron. Is that the simplest explanation, or did writers employ an archaic word to have Bugs Bunny insult, say, Elmer Fudd by calling him - nonsensically, mind you - a runaway slave?
Occams Razor. It slices. It dices. It cuts codswollop to shreds.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... insulting him with a racial slur, and in a way that would be playing with and punning on Bugs' Brooklyn accent.
Cirque du So-What
(25,973 posts)Arguing this is a huge waste of my time. Bye. If it makes you feel better, I concede that yours is the superior intellect.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... that, in the absence of further evidence one way or the other, Occom's razor is operative. It's also true that this is sort of a trivial pursuit on my part. I certainly didn't think it would start such a contentious discussion.
For my part, I'll look into it further and see if I can substantiate my speculation.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... a icon of veneration that he would be so fiercely defended and that folks would be so offended and put off by any criticism of his character. Everyone knows those old cartoons contained a lot of racist humor, and it shouldn't be surprising or contentious.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Nor do I see offence taken ( you can of course, point out these specific responses of indignation, yes?).
What I do see is the merit of your simple hypothesis, itself predicated only a "hunch" and a dated homonym, being called into question.
Certainly no one is arguing older animated shorts didn't contain racism; yet the responsibility lies on you to support, with evidence, your own premise of racism of this particular. That's basic logic 101 and really... "it shouldn't be surprising or contentious."
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... that I am right and they are being defensive. Well, we are all human... All too human.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I'm simply wondering if your entire hypothesis is predicated on a hunch, or if you in fact, have evidence.
If not, it's really more a wild guess advertising our own biases more than it is anything else... which is of course, "all too human" as well.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... looking the word "maroon" up int the dictionary and discovering that it is a racial insult used to denigrate others, which fits the context in which it is used very well.
The reason that I took time to look it up is that Bugs is well known for using humorous malapropisms. The true meaning of the work being misappropriated is often key to the humor and gives it an extra dimension. So I looked it up. That it turned out to be a racist insult didn't surprise me too much because the early Bugs Bunny cartoons, in fact all early cartoons, are infamous for their raw, crude, racial insensitivity.
I'm not the only one to make these observations - I found this on Daily Kos:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/14/1818623/-The-Real-Maroons-and-then-there-was-Bugs-Bunny-BLM
Humor based on malapropisms is rooted in racist minstrel shows:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stump_speech_(minstrelsy)
That carried over into vaudeville and then into cartoons. And eventually ended up, occasionally and innocently, on DU. I thought others would want to be aware.
Question: What biases do you believe might motivate my concern?
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Conversation over.
(This thread is giving me a conclusion of the brain!)
katusha
(809 posts)BainsBane
(53,066 posts)Since maroon is their school color.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)a Maroon community is a settlement where many fugitive slaves lived. In Brazil they were called Quilombos. Maybe Bugs is just a racist.
Takket
(21,625 posts)We have enough racism burning like wildfire through our country right now to deal with. We should be focused on that, not trying to piece together whether an 80 year old cartoon character was trying to superstitiously slip a racist term into a cartoon.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... it's something I discovered and thought others would like to be aware of.
Sneederbunk
(14,300 posts)reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... of Mel Blanc
A great talent!
lame54
(35,321 posts)reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... a racial slur, not a literal reference to slavery.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Do you apply this thought process to all homonyms or merely this one? If merely this one, what then is the precise and relevant difference with this particular homonym?
Happy Hoosier
(7,386 posts)By far the more common 17/18 century use of the word was a referenced to someone who had been marooned. And the association with escaped slaves stems from that definition (sometime survivors of slaver shipwrecks survived and made it to a nearby island.
I really REALLY doubt the word was used in that context bu bugs.... not that those old cartoons couldnt be racist, just that I do not think that is the context here.
greenjar_01
(6,477 posts)and other racist shit.
But your take on maroon is a real stretch. Maroon wasn't really that obscure. Many people would know the other meaning, including probably the writers of these episodes. But that's not really probative, and it's unclear what you're saying in any case. We know who wrote the "maroon" episodes, and we also know what characters Bugs was referring to as "maroons." So, I mean, you're getting pushback here because your whole point is rather muddled and silly, especially when there's obvious racist shit in Bugs Bunny, so you don't have to go trawling around for silly and dubious interpretations. Bugs is literally in blackface singing "is you is or is you ain't mah baby?" You're worried about "maroon," which was much more the writers goofing on working class New York accents? Get some perspective.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... about the writers goofing around with Bugs' working class Brooklyn accent. That's exactly what I think they were doing. And punning with a racial slur.
FYI, I'm not in a dither about it. It's something I was curious about and looked into, and I thought others might be interested in.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)leading you to deny its status as a mere homonym?
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Mine is the creators were just his way of saying moron. Unless you have concrete proof, as in an article quoting on of the creators during their lifetime, I think you are engaging in trolling.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... That is not the way I roll. But I am definitely being speculative. I was curious about the expression and looked into it a bit. I thought others might be interested.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Poster predicated his entire hypothesis on the inaccurate usage of a particular homonym and never allowed us any additional evidence to support it as such,
Further, poster implies (again, lacking any evidence) that people are defensive about this, when all we can see are responses disagreeing with his poorly supported hypothesis.
Additionally, poster tells us on more than one occasion that he is merely curious, yet fails to provide any meaningful rational for his lack of satisfying that same curiosity through valid source material.
RockRaven
(14,998 posts)I recall there's a Bugs Bunny cartoon which uses "cotton picking" as a substitute for what might otherwise be a curse word (or at minimum a derogatory adjective) and it went right over my head as a kid. It was just a nonsense phrase to child-me.
As for maroon, I have no reason to grant the cartoonists the benefit of the doubt... So here's why it could be intentional: AFAIK, the word "nimrod" entered the US lexicon as an insult akin to idiot because Bugs referred to Elmer Fudd as "Nimrod" in an early cartoon. My interpretation is that the cartoonists inserted that as a joke for the adults. It was a sarcastic insult (in the Bible Nimrod is called "a mighty hunter before the Lord" ), but kids just knew Bugs was insulting Fudd, who is kind of dumb, so it became a childish insult for the dumb. But mid 20th century Americans were pretty steeped in religion, and the reference in question is in the Book of Genesis, so if they'd read just a bit of the bible they would get the joke. So maybe the maroon thing is also a double duty adult-kid line.
But I don't see "maroon" making sense as a similarly slightly esoteric reference. It seems too obscure, at that time, with that intended audience (did they even know about maroons' part in history?). Middle America in the mid 20th century had huge historical blind spots...
Seems to me, absent any quotes from the creators on the subject, that an intentionally idiosyncratic pronunciation (which itself is an ironical joke, as Bugs is mispronouncing an intelligence-based insult) is somewhat more likely.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... one thing that I would add is that the idiosyncratic pronunciation may originate with Bugs' Brooklyn accent.
Greybnk48
(10,176 posts)reACTIONary
(5,771 posts).... it to be so specific. I had heard it was Brooklyn and it sounded that way to me.
Greybnk48
(10,176 posts)Not a fucking thing more. JFC. What next?
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Mc Mike
(9,115 posts)You can tell because he also calls the same person an 'embezzle', instead of imbecile.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... These expressions gain some of their humor from being referential to actual words, not just mispronunciations. As simple mispronunciations they fall flat. And 'Nimrod' shows that the cartoonists were a bit more sophisticated and aware then they get credit for.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)the Book of Genesis. Is reading the Bible 'sophisticated'?
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts).. Yes.
On a more serious note, I did get the chance to meet Chuck Jones, as part of a Tex Avery retrospective. Those guys knew what they were doing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Jones
They even had a thing for opera.
What's Opera, Doc?
It has been widely praised by many in the animation industry as the greatest animated cartoon that Warner Bros. ever released, and has been ranked as such in the top 50 animated cartoons of all time. In 1992, the Library of Congress deemed it "culturally, historically or aesthetically significant", and selected it for preservation in the National Film Registry, the first cartoon to receive such honors.
nolabear
(41,991 posts)when they performed along with several operatic Looney Tunes cartoons. We even wore our Viking helmets. 😄
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... the Rocky Horror Picture Show!
AmyStrange
(7,989 posts)-
I vote for this one too.
To me it does sound like he's saying moroon, and not maroon, but what do I know, I'm a maroon times two.
==========
Greybnk48
(10,176 posts)The PC crowd trying to say that Mel Blanc meant something racist are definitely "maroons."
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)(And we bitch about all the Qanon and other crazy Trumpites who dream up these fantasy connections....)
Zorro
(15,749 posts)Tbear
(488 posts)KY_EnviroGuy
(14,494 posts)as in by comedian Norm Crosby (who passed away this November, BTW). Always enjoyed him on the Tonight Show in the Carson days.
Loved Bugs Bunny as a kid, too!
KY
Celerity
(43,497 posts)KY_EnviroGuy
(14,494 posts)That is, using a word in the correct context but intentionally misspelled and/or mispronounced?
Maybe that's just bad spelling and poor grammar......
KY
Celerity
(43,497 posts)reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-up_comedy#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stump_speech_(minstrelsy)
TigressDem
(5,125 posts)It is sometimes weird the terms that are loaded with more than people know.
I never knew "jungle bunny" was a derogatory term toward blacks, until someone explained it. Had no idea it had anything to do with black people at all.
Didn't realize that "jerry rig" was a term that put down Nazi Germany... the Gerry's ran out of supplies and used anything and everything to get the job done. I always thought it was a proud term to describe someone who could McGiver stuff until a skin head I worked with got upset about it. Okie Dokie.
Mister Ed
(5,943 posts)I've always believed that "jerry rigged" was an alternate pronunciation of "jury-rigged", the nautical term describing improvised masts, spars, or rigging.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/jury-rigged
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/jury%20mast
It might be that your skinhead co-worker knew something I don't, or it might be that he was just an oversensitive snowflake, as Neo-Nazis tend to be.
TigressDem
(5,125 posts)I'm not going to be overly PC but the guy was really upset and I've been in customer service for years. So talking people off ledges is kinda my thing.
And before McGiver, jerry rigging probably wasn't AS cool.
lol
Celerity
(43,497 posts)1. Maroon as used by Bugs is a simple comic mispronunciation, one of many. Here is an example where he mispronounces two things. It is not some hidden racial slur.
2. Maroon, in terms of escaped slaves who then lived free outside of the colonial society is not at all obscure if you are familiar with West Indian culture (I am half Bajan, my mum is from Barbados), especially Jamaican. Nanny of the Maroons is one of the Jamaican national heroes and is on one of their paper monetary bills. There is also a village called Maroon Town in Jamaica. There were also Maroon communities throughout the southern US, many well in the 19th century.
NANNY OF THE MAROONS - A JAMAICAN NATIONAL HERO
https://svarthistoria.com/blog/nanny-of-the-maroons-en-jamaicansk-nationalhjlte
winstars
(4,220 posts)Progressive Jones
(6,011 posts)reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)If not, seems simply another irrelevancy.
Earthshine2
(4,044 posts)The word "octoroon" was used in former times to describe a person who is 1/8 black and 7/8 presumably white.
The word "quadroon" was used to describe a person who is 1/4 black. (A parent of an octoroon.)
The term "maroon" may have root-word commonality. Someone who is separated and isolated.
I think Bugs Bunny (a childhood and adult favorite) was using a censor-friendly version of "moron" by calling Elmer Fudd a "maroon."
Curiously, I recently saw the movie "Invitation to a Gunfighter" starring Yul Brenner. In the movie, which takes place right after the civil war, the gunslinger hero described himself as a "quadroon." His skin tone was intentionally made quite reddish (maroon?) from makeup. Everyone else was very white.
Celerity
(43,497 posts)Of plaçage, mariages de la main gauche and quadroon balls.....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pla%C3%A7age
Potential placées were sometimes even shipped to France for finishing school and formal education before they were contractually engaged. The overall price for the elite of the elite at times went into the millions of dollars (in today's money). I went to uni in London (where I grew up) with a girl originally from New Orleans descended on both sides of her family from placées. Went with her on a bank holiday trip (that we simply extended) back to New Orleans. Extraordinary oral and physically documented family history. Her gran on her mum's side (lived in a wonderful house in the Garden District) was a walking encyclopaedia.
nuxvomica
(12,441 posts)The slave reference referred to slaves who escaped their ships, probably swimming to the nearest island, where they were "marooned". The fundamental meaning refers to people lost at sea, probably by falling overboard or ship sinking, that managed to find dry land. So a "maroon" is somebody who is lost but manages to survive and the derogatory extension is someone who is clueless, rudderless, figuratively "lost at sea".
honest.abe
(8,685 posts)Yet you continue to insist on your ridiculous theory. You are nearing the level of the true meaning of the word Bugs was mispronouncing.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)honest.abe
(8,685 posts)Go with it!
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... ignore the animus.
honest.abe
(8,685 posts)reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)honest.abe
(8,685 posts)My posts are clearly within the subject matter of the topic... such as it is.
PatSeg
(47,586 posts)not to mention very funny. I see no problem with it.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)PatSeg
(47,586 posts)More as an example of Bugs Bunny using the word Maroon in a cartoon.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)... if it were to turn out that Bugs' "maroon" quip is a racist joke, would you consider it a 'no-no'?
Celerity
(43,497 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,431 posts)cartoon such as Bugs Bunny.
Celerity
(43,497 posts)of escaped slaves living outside of the slavers' societies. The OP is simply wrong.
I already showed this here:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=14769663
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Iggo
(47,565 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)The writer of Bugs Bunny may have thought it was just an idiosyncratic pronunciation.
Many English words have separate, distinct meanings with different origins.
AmericanCanuck
(1,102 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)malaise
(269,157 posts)are a well known community is more than a few parishes
marie999
(3,334 posts)CTyankee
(63,912 posts)Also, it means to be on an island, abandoned.
Bugs Bunny is the only "person" who used the term to mean "moron." but I don't know that because I didn't grow up in NYC.
I think Harvard would call it's color maroon. and here's a handy chart for ya:https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Harvard%27s+%22colors%22
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)CTyankee
(63,912 posts)My first husband had gone to Harvard and had more "stuff" from its college shop than you could believe. He was a real idiot about having gone to Harvard.