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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Sun Sep 30, 2012, 11:38 PM Sep 2012

Krugman: The Real Referendum

Last edited Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:59 AM - Edit history (1)

The Real Referendum

By PAUL KRUGMAN

<...>

Yet there is a sense in which the election is indeed a referendum, but of a different kind. Voters are, in effect, being asked to deliver a verdict on the legacy of the New Deal and the Great Society, on Social Security, Medicare and, yes, Obamacare, which represents an extension of that legacy. Will they vote for politicians who want to replace Medicare with Vouchercare, who denounce Social Security as “collectivist” (as Paul Ryan once did), who dismiss those who turn to social insurance programs as people unwilling to take responsibility for their lives?

If the polls are any indication, the result of that referendum will be a clear reassertion of support for the safety net, and a clear rejection of politicians who want to return us to the Gilded Age. But here’s the question: Will that election result be honored?

I ask that question because we already know what Mr. Obama will face if re-elected: a clamor from Beltway insiders demanding that he immediately return to his failed political strategy of 2011, in which he made a Grand Bargain over the budget deficit his overriding priority. Now is the time, he’ll be told, to fix America’s entitlement problem once and for all. There will be calls — as there were at the time of the Democratic National Convention — for him to officially endorse Simpson-Bowles, the budget proposal issued by the co-chairmen of his deficit commission (although never accepted by the commission as a whole).

And Mr. Obama should just say no, for three reasons.

First, despite years of dire warnings from people like, well, Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles, we are not facing any kind of fiscal crisis...Second, contrary to Beltway conventional wisdom, America does not have an “entitlements problem.” Mainly, it has a health cost problem, private as well as public, which must be addressed (and which the Affordable Care Act at least starts to address)...Finally, despite the bizarre reverence it inspires in Beltway insiders — the same people, by the way, who assured us that Paul Ryan was a brave truth-teller — the fact is that Simpson-Bowles is a really bad plan, one that would undermine some key pieces of our safety net. And if a re-elected president were to endorse it, he would be betraying the trust of the voters who returned him to office.

- more -

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/01/opinion/krugman-the-real-referendum.html


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Krugman: The Real Referendum (Original Post) ProSense Sep 2012 OP
100 % russspeakeasy Sep 2012 #1
"Now, I'm still eager to reach an agreement..." MannyGoldstein Sep 2012 #2
I hope the President ProSense Sep 2012 #5
When has President Obama ever listened to Paul Krugman? bvar22 Oct 2012 #30
lots of people can see right through your shtick, manny. try harder. dionysus Oct 2012 #12
How is a direct quote "shtick"? /nt Marr Oct 2012 #17
Uh...ask Mitt Romney Z_California Oct 2012 #27
D'oh! You discovered my MannyGoldstein Oct 2012 #21
no-democracy-works-without-compromise pasto76 Oct 2012 #16
The concern of us "professional leftists" is that Obama's starting position is wrong. Jim Lane Oct 2012 #19
Classic triangulation MannyGoldstein Oct 2012 #23
As Krugman puts it, "There is no fiscal crisis" Doctor_J Oct 2012 #45
Social Security is not a bargaining chip. Period. woo me with science Oct 2012 #51
I wish I could rec this a hundred times. n/t gkhouston Sep 2012 #3
It's a great piece. n/t ProSense Oct 2012 #6
Why can't Paul Krugman be in charge of the US economy? I love this man. robinlynne Sep 2012 #4
D.C. is not friendly to those who tell the truth, nor does it reward those who are right. harun Oct 2012 #25
I'd love to see him replace Geithner. gateley Oct 2012 #26
and Al Gore as head of the EPA? robinlynne Oct 2012 #28
Because the Constitution does not put the US economy under one person's control treestar Oct 2012 #62
i mena in geithner's position, forget the name of the postion. robinlynne Oct 2012 #66
Secretary of the Treasury treestar Oct 2012 #69
Thank-you. We are talking about economic policy. not laws. robinlynne Oct 2012 #70
This is all of the stuff that I have wanted to explain to the uninformed & unaware, but I could not patrice Oct 2012 #7
+1 freshwest Oct 2012 #8
I am glad to see you embracing Mr. Krugman. nm rhett o rick Oct 2012 #9
Thanks, because ProSense Oct 2012 #10
I humbly appologize. nm rhett o rick Oct 2012 #57
wise words dionysus Oct 2012 #11
More people need to hear this message.. kentuck Oct 2012 #13
Page not found. Got a new link? Beartracks Oct 2012 #14
Fixed the link. n/t ProSense Oct 2012 #15
The NY Times Iwillnevergiveup Oct 2012 #18
Kick! n/t ProSense Oct 2012 #20
. n/t porphyrian Oct 2012 #22
A vote for Obama is exactly a vote for what with regard to SS and Medicare? NorthCarolina Oct 2012 #24
A vote for Mitt ProSense Oct 2012 #29
Unresponsive. woo me with science Oct 2012 #32
Blah, blah, blah. n/t ProSense Oct 2012 #33
Yes, voters are not entitled to know WHAT they are voting for, NorthCarolina Oct 2012 #40
Fine ProSense Oct 2012 #42
THANK YOU. We must demand specifics. We must demand the chained CPI off the table, woo me with science Oct 2012 #31
I am seriously concerned over the LACK of specifics being given. NorthCarolina Oct 2012 #39
As am I Doctor_J Oct 2012 #46
We are bought and sold. woo me with science Oct 2012 #50
Ah, the paternalistic "we" again. Q. Why such a low opinion of others? A. Your "we" =/= you+everyone patrice Oct 2012 #52
Aw patrice, woo me with science Oct 2012 #56
I don't get why you don't get that it's NOT all about him and that IS as it should be. Isn't it patrice Oct 2012 #58
I read that four times, patrice, woo me with science Oct 2012 #67
Try looking at the campaign material? treestar Oct 2012 #63
I don't trust Obama zipplewrath Oct 2012 #34
"In fact I'm sure I'll object greatly to much of what he chooses to do over the next 4 years." ProSense Oct 2012 #35
It's not "working" zipplewrath Oct 2012 #36
OK ProSense Oct 2012 #37
How do you get that? zipplewrath Oct 2012 #38
"I'm a guy that has realized since Clinton that if we don't get control of health CARE " ProSense Oct 2012 #41
No, he didn't zipplewrath Oct 2012 #43
Krugman: ProSense Oct 2012 #44
Which has nothing to do with reducing the cost of health CARE zipplewrath Oct 2012 #53
You're really ProSense Oct 2012 #59
More Krugman: ProSense Oct 2012 #47
Changing the subject and avoiding the issue. Just like the President. woo me with science Oct 2012 #48
Yes, Obama strengthened Medicare. ProSense Oct 2012 #49
Which doesn't address the cost of health CARE zipplewrath Oct 2012 #54
Medicare is health care and is related to health care cost. ProSense Oct 2012 #60
Exactly. woo me with science Oct 2012 #68
All I hear about humbled_opinion Oct 2012 #55
One thing that might add perspective is the fact that money, for a very long time now, has been patrice Oct 2012 #64
This is very premature treestar Oct 2012 #61
I'm surprised theses GOPers support any kind of insurance bucolic_frolic Oct 2012 #65
 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
2. "Now, I'm still eager to reach an agreement..."
Sun Sep 30, 2012, 11:46 PM
Sep 2012
"Now, I'm still eager to reach an agreement based on the principles of my bipartisan debt commission. No party has a monopoly on wisdom. No democracy works without compromise. I want to get this done, and we can get it done."
- Barack Obama, September 6th 2012

I think we know where this train is heading.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
5. I hope the President
Sun Sep 30, 2012, 11:58 PM
Sep 2012

"I think we know where this train is heading."

...listens to Krugman, and the train appears to be heading in the right direction.

<...>

Now, I’m still eager to reach an agreement based on the principles of my bipartisan debt commission. No party has a monopoly on wisdom. No democracy works without compromise. I want to get this done, and we can get it done. But when Governor Romney and his friends in Congress tell us we can somehow lower our deficits by spending trillions more on new tax breaks for the wealthy, well, what did Bill Clinton call it -- you do the arithmetic. (Applause.) You do the math. (Applause.)

I refuse to go along with that and as long as I’m President, I never will. (Applause.) I refuse to ask middle-class families to give up their deductions for owning a home or raising their kids just to pay for another millionaire’s tax cut. (Applause.)
I refuse to ask students to pay more for college, or kick children out of Head Start programs, or eliminate health insurance for millions of Americans who are poor and elderly or disabled -- all so those with the most can pay less. I’m not going along with that. (Applause.)

And I will never -- I will never -- turn Medicare into a voucher. (Applause.) No American should ever have to spend their golden years at the mercy of insurance companies. They should retire with the care and the dignity that they have earned. Yes, we will reform and strengthen Medicare for the long haul, but we’ll do it by reducing the cost of health care -- not by asking seniors to pay thousands of dollars more. (Applause.)

And we will keep the promise of Social Security by taking the responsible steps to strengthen it, not by turning it over to Wall Street. (Applause.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/09/07/remarks-president-democratic-national-convention

Great speech!



pasto76

(1,589 posts)
16. no-democracy-works-without-compromise
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:10 AM
Oct 2012

its a fact. Without compromise, it is a dictatorship. Period. The other side brings bullshit to the table, but fact is, they were elected by their constituents all the same.

"I think we know where this train is heading". Boo hoo. The only way to prevent your major sad attack is to get out and educate people about what is happening. Then they vote in decent representatives. Its how this works. Ive been doing mucho overtime on the job turning conservative wanna bes into Democrats. Are you doing the same?

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
19. The concern of us "professional leftists" is that Obama's starting position is wrong.
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:53 AM
Oct 2012

He continues to accept the idea that the deficit is a major problem that must be addressed, and he signals that, in addressing it, he's willing to sacrifice some of the Democratic constituencies as long as (1) some really important ones are protected and (2) the Republicans give something up.

You're right that compromise of that sort is how things get done. In this instance, however, the underlying engine is this deficit hysteria. The right wing began generating it as soon as the Bush tax cuts were safely extended.

The error isn't that Obama, by accepting compromise, is taking the wrong path toward getting something done. The error is that the "something" he's getting done -- deficit reduction -- is not an important goal. In fact, for the short term, we would better off if the deficit were higher, not lower. (The long-term deficit is more of a problem, but still not a basis for accepting major spending cuts in domestic programs.)

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
23. Classic triangulation
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 09:17 AM
Oct 2012

Adopt two-thirds of what Republicans want, then call them extreme:

"President Obama has offered a plan with 4 trillion dollars in debt reduction over a decade, with two and a half dollars of spending reductions for every one dollar of revenue increases, and tight controls on future spending. It's the kind of balanced approach proposed by the bipartisan Simpson-Bowles commission." - Bill Clinton, DNC speech

Slashing spending in a depression only makes it worse. Yet this is Obama's starting position. Mind frying.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
45. As Krugman puts it, "There is no fiscal crisis"
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:29 PM
Oct 2012

So when the president bases his "compromise" on a premise that's a Republican canard to begin with (Medicare is in trouble!!11!!), we lose regardless of what happens.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
51. Social Security is not a bargaining chip. Period.
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 04:16 PM
Oct 2012

How DARE you suggest that it should be.

This economy has been LOOTED by the one percent. How DARE you accept the despicable right-wing premise that this mess has to be placed on the backs of the most vulnerable people in America?

How DARE you. There is a reason that SS was considered the Third Rail of American politics for decades...because principled Democrats DEFENDED it and REFUSED to allow it to be used a bargaining chip for the interests of the greedy.

Shame on you.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
62. Because the Constitution does not put the US economy under one person's control
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 05:16 PM
Oct 2012

The federal government has limited powers. There are three branches, too. This is to prevent a dictatorship of Paul Krugman which might in fact turn out to be the nightmare that most dictatorships turn out to be.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
69. Secretary of the Treasury
Tue Oct 2, 2012, 09:09 AM
Oct 2012

A cabinet position that helps the President carry out the existing laws. In no position to change any law.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
7. This is all of the stuff that I have wanted to explain to the uninformed & unaware, but I could not
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:16 AM
Oct 2012

formulate it into such an elegant and coherent verbally-economic whole.

Paul Krugman!

kentuck

(111,098 posts)
13. More people need to hear this message..
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:44 AM
Oct 2012

Especially the elected representatives in Washington. We have a "priority" problem, moreso than a fiscal problem. Do we want to continue to spend a trillion dollars per year on a bloated defense budget or do we want to fix Medicare? It's a simple question.

Iwillnevergiveup

(9,298 posts)
18. The NY Times
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:40 AM
Oct 2012

is lucky to still have Paul Krugman on board, and would love to see him have influence in fiscal/economic policies after the election. He has been consistently right and needs to be listened to.

K&R

 

NorthCarolina

(11,197 posts)
24. A vote for Obama is exactly a vote for what with regard to SS and Medicare?
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 10:29 AM
Oct 2012

Who knows? If I vote for Obama, am I voting for Chained CPI? Am I voting for raising the retirement age? WHAT, what the hell am I voting for? Why are the candidates unable to tell in precise terms exactly WHAT is acceptable to them? If it is a fear they would lose votes by truth telling, then that should be a concern to everyone.

Instead, lets just argue about who is the better debater. Sheesh.... this whole election is making me sick.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
29. A vote for Mitt
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 11:27 AM
Oct 2012

is a vote to kill Social Security.

Obama suggested that Social Security's finances could be "put on more stable footing" in part by raising the cap on taxable income. He dismissed as flatly "not true attacks from Romney on $716 billion in Medicare savings included in the Affordable Care Act (and Paul Ryan's budgets), saying that it "strengthened" the program.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021390402


<...>

Now, I’m still eager to reach an agreement based on the principles of my bipartisan debt commission. No party has a monopoly on wisdom. No democracy works without compromise. I want to get this done, and we can get it done. But when Governor Romney and his friends in Congress tell us we can somehow lower our deficits by spending trillions more on new tax breaks for the wealthy, well, what did Bill Clinton call it -- you do the arithmetic. (Applause.) You do the math. (Applause.)

I refuse to go along with that and as long as I’m President, I never will. (Applause.) I refuse to ask middle-class families to give up their deductions for owning a home or raising their kids just to pay for another millionaire’s tax cut. (Applause.)
I refuse to ask students to pay more for college, or kick children out of Head Start programs, or eliminate health insurance for millions of Americans who are poor and elderly or disabled -- all so those with the most can pay less. I’m not going along with that. (Applause.)

And I will never -- I will never -- turn Medicare into a voucher. (Applause.) No American should ever have to spend their golden years at the mercy of insurance companies. They should retire with the care and the dignity that they have earned. Yes, we will reform and strengthen Medicare for the long haul, but we’ll do it by reducing the cost of health care -- not by asking seniors to pay thousands of dollars more. (Applause.)

And we will keep the promise of Social Security by taking the responsible steps to strengthen it, not by turning it over to Wall Street. (Applause.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/09/07/remarks-president-democratic-national-convention

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
32. Unresponsive.
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 11:48 AM
Oct 2012

Where are the promises not to implement chained CPI, not to reduce or slow projected benefits at all, and not to increase the percentage of SS benefits that is taxable?

Saying that Mitt would be a disaster is not enough. We need these specific promises. Note that this is not even a request that this President IMPROVE SS benefits....merely that he promise, specifically, not to ATTACK them.

 

NorthCarolina

(11,197 posts)
40. Yes, voters are not entitled to know WHAT they are voting for,
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 02:06 PM
Oct 2012

only how bad the alternative is. I get it now.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
42. Fine
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 02:38 PM
Oct 2012

"Yes, voters are not entitled to know WHAT they are voting for,"

...no argument, which is why in response to your comment, I posted statements from the President, including a snip of his DNC speech.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1445547

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
31. THANK YOU. We must demand specifics. We must demand the chained CPI off the table,
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 11:44 AM
Oct 2012

explicitly. The refusal to talk about specifics telegraphs that we have a serious, serious problem.




Obama proposed the chained CPI last year and has defended it strongly. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1136433

Promising that the Social Security program itself will not be changed, as Biden did in August, is not enough. Backers of the chained CPI have often defended it by using a word game....arguing that it is not a change to Social Security. It does not change the SS program itself, but it lowers projected benefits by changing the formula used to calculate SS benefits. It is viciously harmful to seniors, because it cuts projected benefits increasingly severely over time and is BUILT on the assumption that money can be saved by forcing seniors to accept lower quality substitutes on their grocery lists.

And McIntosh has pointed out another trick that Obama/Biden need to reject specifically: reducing SS benefits by increasing the taxable percentage of those benefits: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021133426#post24

If Democrats are running as the defenders of Americans in this race and portraying themselves as the antithesis of the candidates who will attack safety nets, it is imperative that we demand these promises, and that we demand they be made explicitly.

Obama and Biden owe it to Americans to make it clear that Romney/Ryan are the ONLY ones in this race who pose a threat to the well-being and the desperately needed safety nets of the American people. It is the bare MINIMUM that they should be able to promise: not even that they promise to IMPROVE the safety nets, but that they promise not to ATTACK them.

No more "Grand Bargain," ever again.

 

NorthCarolina

(11,197 posts)
39. I am seriously concerned over the LACK of specifics being given.
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:56 PM
Oct 2012

How are voters supposed to choose when the ONLY determining factor being posed is "imagine what will happen if the OTHER guy wins". I don't even truly know what our candidate Obama will do because he's not talking any more than Rmoney. The facts I do know though are that no candidate makes to this spot that isn't 100% Wall Street approved, and that Obama has seemed to back changes to Social Security and Medicare that, on the surface and sans specifics as to what he would or would not support, appear pretty unpalatable to this voter.

At this point I am beginning to believe our "Democracy" has become a farce. With dysfunctional EVM's (although they likely are working as intended), voter suppression, citizens united, and where our only choices are candidates "sponsored" by moneyed interests....whose idea of American style Democracy is that? Not mine.

This whole thing is starting to become transparent, and I'm not liking what I'm seeing.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
46. As am I
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:33 PM
Oct 2012

Surely is he were committed to growing, not cutting, SS & Medicare, he would be blaring it daily. I am pretty sure it will be gone before the end of this decade - ie. e. given to the banksters - regardless who lives in the WH. I think it's despicable, but that's where we are.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
50. We are bought and sold.
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:59 PM
Oct 2012

The President runs on being the defender of the 99 percent. It is time to force him to address these issues specifically, because it will be a mammoth betrayal when the new Grand Bargain goes through, after a campaign like this.

Meanwhile, the Third Wayers around here aren't even denying it anymore. The inevitable shift from denial that the President pursues this right-wing attack on Social Security to minimization and rationalization is in full swing.

And the new Obama bumper sticker slogan is apparently, "Either Way!"

We are pulled to the right. We are betrayed and manipulated like fools. We have to get this Third Way, right wing cancer out of our party.

Either Way!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021128218

patrice

(47,992 posts)
52. Ah, the paternalistic "we" again. Q. Why such a low opinion of others? A. Your "we" =/= you+everyone
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 04:22 PM
Oct 2012

Maybe my A.(nswer) is wrong, but perhaps you can appreciate that is because I can't understand why you don't appear to include anyone but those who see everything your way and anyone who doesn't also doesn't deserve to make their own choices about what happens, or whatever decisions they have made are invalid, hence, the necessity of speaking as an authoritarian for them, even though your characterization of those others is as ignorant, passive, and too stupid to grow or develop autonomously, which I must admit is true of some, but those of whom this is not true, and yet are different somehow from your position, different from your assumptions, don't count.

I do hope you'll forgive my honest confusion; it's frustrating to me that I suspect that you and I actually do agree on the principles/significant objectives, but despite that possible agreement, from where I stand, there's a lot of air between "the road" and your "tires".

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
56. Aw patrice,
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 04:41 PM
Oct 2012

It's not too much to ask, that a Democratic President promise not to attack the social safety net.

Not even promise to *improve* already meager SS benefits, but promise not to *attack* them.

It's really and truly not.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
58. I don't get why you don't get that it's NOT all about him and that IS as it should be. Isn't it
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 05:11 PM
Oct 2012

supposed to be about us? So driving people away from one another for ideologies and relatively uninformed (at least as to significant particulars that is) PREDICTIONS works AGAINST that empowerment.

I don't get why you don't get that individuals MUST pick their battles and prioritize objectives themselves, unless your priorities differ from mine with a high probability difference between you and me being that what could be done in the next 4 years = 0 to you and that WHATEVER time and human suffering and losses, which very likely can result from a Democratic loss, DON'T MATTER, or you're assuming that ALL of it was going to be lost anyway. I don't get how you expect INDIVIDUAL persons to stand up and empower themselves, when you appear to assume that whatever burden they must stand up under is a Just burden as long as it is in the name of whatever it is that you agree with, so if it crushes them or turns them, likely irrevocably, to the dark that's as it should be. I don't understand how individuals are supposed to empower themselves when you are constantly telling them how it has to be, instead of letting them make the deals for themselves that all of us must make anyway, no matter who is "in charge", so the questions are about the process by means of which the options increase, not decrease, for everyone. I think we may agree in significant principles, but disagree on timing, because we disagree on the wheres, how many, and the qualities of the oppressors.

Not that I think all of that is set in stone, just that, because "we" are going to need critical mass for authentic change and I don't believe "we" have anything even slightly near that yet, I want "us" to stick together better than "we" appear to be doing and have a little more caution about those who ARE amongst us who have a powerfully vested interest in seeing that fail.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
63. Try looking at the campaign material?
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 05:18 PM
Oct 2012

Maybe it's not an issue?

Try looking at who will be your representative and their position?

Try your Senator's positions?

These programs are not going away unless there is a House full of Paul Ryans and a Mitt presidency. There's nothing to fear here. Teabaggers to date are a minority.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
34. I don't trust Obama
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:32 PM
Oct 2012

I don't trust him to do the right thing. In fact I'm sure I'll object greatly to much of what he chooses to do over the next 4 years.

I just trust Romney to do more of the wrong things, and to do practically nothing of which I approve over the next 4 years.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
35. "In fact I'm sure I'll object greatly to much of what he chooses to do over the next 4 years."
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:40 PM
Oct 2012

"I just trust Romney to do more of the wrong things, and to do practically nothing of which I approve over the next 4 years."

The lesser of two evils, whatever works.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
36. It's not "working"
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:00 PM
Oct 2012

It's capitulating. My only other real choice is to do nothing. I'm sure Obama will ignore much of what Krugman suggests. He also won't address the fundamental problem which Krugam alludes, which is the continued, out of control, rise in the cost of health care which is destroying public AND private budgets.

Just once I'd like to vote for a president and not have to hold my nose.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
37. OK
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:06 PM
Oct 2012

"It's not "working"

It's capitulating. My only other real choice is to do nothing. I'm sure Obama will ignore much of what Krugman suggests."

..."capitulating," whatever works.

"He also won't address the fundamental problem which Krugam alludes, which is the continued, out of control, rise in the cost of health care which is destroying public AND private budgets. "

Interesting that you're a deficit hawk upset with the President.

<...>

That’s why I say that Mr. Obama gets too little credit. He has done more to rein in long-run deficits than any previous president. And if his opponents were serious about those deficits, they’d be backing his actions and calling for more; instead, they’ve been screaming about death panels.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/opinion/18krugman.html



zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
38. How do you get that?
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:51 PM
Oct 2012

You're seeing what isn't there.... again.

I'm no deficit hawk. I'm a guy that has realized since Clinton that if we don't get control of health CARE we are not going to solve any of the major economic and social safety net problems that we have. It is a drag on our economy even larger than the defense department. This president ignored that problem and instead nationalized the regulation of health INSURANCE all the while going on to predict unsustainable rates of growth of health CARE for the foreseeable future. Something, by the way, he has proposed absolutely nothing to fix since the Health Insurance Stimulus Act.

I've predicted before that single payer will come, and the GOP will bring it to us because the major multinationals will get tired of paying for health insurance as an individual cost, when their competitors have it handled as a collective cost. And wait 'til ya see what THEY wanna mandate that we all buy from private corporations.

" I mean, if a mandate was the solution, we can try that to solve homelessness by mandating everybody to buy a house."

Where's that guy?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
41. "I'm a guy that has realized since Clinton that if we don't get control of health CARE "
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 02:37 PM
Oct 2012

And as Krugman pointed out, Obama did something about it...something major.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
43. No, he didn't
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:26 PM
Oct 2012

He said something to the effect of "got started", which is a bit silly considering that the White House predicts that the cost of CARE will continue to rise at 7%+ for the forseeable future. For something that already costs 3 to 5 times what other contries pay, and is bankrupting many famlies, even with insurance, that's hardly "doing something major". It's not even a good start. And it has done nothing to solve the problems that everyone, including the president, is complaining about with respect to the long term fiscal health of medicare.

The solution to the long term problems with medicare, and medicaid, is to get the cost of health care down, way down, like other civilized countries have done. But Obama didn't do that, said it couldn't be done and wouldn't "work" here. Instead he tried to control the rate of increase of health INSURANCE. Which is why he predicts continued, unsustainable rates of increase in the cost of CARE.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
44. Krugman:
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:28 PM
Oct 2012
<...>

That’s why I say that Mr. Obama gets too little credit. He has done more to rein in long-run deficits than any previous president. And if his opponents were serious about those deficits, they’d be backing his actions and calling for more; instead, they’ve been screaming about death panels.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/opinion/18krugman.html


Yes, he did. It's right there.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
53. Which has nothing to do with reducing the cost of health CARE
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 04:29 PM
Oct 2012

Again, you're arguing against strawmen. I don't care in the short term about deficits. Truth is, in the long term it is meaningless if they don't get control of the cost of health CARE, for both the public and private sector. Even Obama admits that the unsustainable rates of growth in health CARE costs are in the system for the foreseeable future and he hasn't proposed doing anything about it.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
59. You're really
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 05:12 PM
Oct 2012

"Which has nothing to do with reducing the cost of health CARE"

...going to ignore Krugman's point?

And what do these things have in common? They’re all in last year’s health reform bill.

That’s why I say that Mr. Obama gets too little credit. He has done more to rein in long-run deficits than any previous president. And if his opponents were serious about those deficits, they’d be backing his actions and calling for more; instead, they’ve been screaming about death panels.


ProSense

(116,464 posts)
47. More Krugman:
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:35 PM
Oct 2012
Bending The Curve

The new Medicare Trustees Report is out. Comparing Table IIIA-2 in this year’s report and last year’s report, we get this:



Medicare Trustees

In other words, the Medicare actuaries believe that the cost-saving provisions in the Obama health reform will make a huge difference to the long-run budget outlook. Yes, it’s just a projection, and debatable like all projections. And it’s still not enough. But anyone who both claims to be worried about the long-run deficit and was opposed to health reform has some explaining to do. All the facts we have suggest that health reform was the biggest move toward fiscal responsibility in a long, long time.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/bending-the-curve/

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
48. Changing the subject and avoiding the issue. Just like the President.
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:52 PM
Oct 2012

You know, Prosense, the fact that you are always at the ready with the very BEST blue links and propaganda available, yet you have absolutely NOTHING, ZERO, ZIP, NADA to reassure us that Obama does not plan to implement a chained CPI or worse to attack SS benefits....

That says a hell of a lot.




ProSense

(116,464 posts)
49. Yes, Obama strengthened Medicare.
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:55 PM
Oct 2012
You know, Prosense, the fact that you are always at the ready with the very BEST blue links and propaganda available, yet you have absolutely NOTHING, ZERO, ZIP, NADA to reassure us that Obama does not plan to implement a chained CPI or worse to attack SS benefits....

You're saying Krugman is "propaganda"?

It must really hurt to see Obama getting props, huh?

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
54. Which doesn't address the cost of health CARE
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 04:31 PM
Oct 2012

He reduces the rate of increases (that are still at unsustainable levels, even according to Obama) of medicare, and doesn't do anything for the cost of health CARE to the rest of the nation. And a huge portion of those decreases you are showing are due to reducing the cost of the insurance, not the underlying care.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
68. Exactly.
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:46 PM
Oct 2012

And many of us were pointing this out from the very beginning. It is perhaps the most ironically named piece of legislation in recent memory, because it does absolutely nothing of substance to address the problem of out-of-control costs that was the *claimed* reason for the reform in the first place.

humbled_opinion

(4,423 posts)
55. All I hear about
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 04:34 PM
Oct 2012

at work is the debt, debt, debt, 16 trillion with a trajectory on course to bankrupt the USA, credit downgraded once already, interest rates will rise as USA credit rating drops further, debt intrest will destory the economy.

Unfunded liabilities over 122 Trillion completely unfathomable amounts of money.

They point to www.usdebtclock.org neat little function of projecting the debt out to 2016 and comparing budgets, OMB, GOP, and Current levels, even with additional tax revenue the spending alone does significantly increase.

If you do the math it is seriously ugly. I certainly don't know what the solution is, and I don't think any of our politicians on either side of the aisle know what to do either but that's just MHO.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
64. One thing that might add perspective is the fact that money, for a very long time now, has been
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 05:27 PM
Oct 2012

nothing but debt anyway.

There are videos on YouTube about the history of money and banking that illustrate this point.

It's ALL privately defined 0s and 1s, processed in custom designed unique accounting processes, in networks of privately owned computers, secretly synched up internationally and domestically to take advantage of PRIVATELY PURCHASED TAX CODES.

That's the source of "the Debt". That's why "we" had all of the money in the universe to kill a whole bunch of INNOCENT people this last decade and now "all of a sudden" (NOT really!) don't have enough money to take care of the disabled, elderly and veterans.

There are those of us who are saying, TTE, "Who the fraKKK cares how big the debt is? It so cosmic in proportions now that it passed meaningful a long time ago." Or at least why is some debt, the 53%'s, less meaningful than other debt, especially when actual wealth, U.S. property is on the international auction block? Who put it there? Q. How did they do that? A. By using debt & PRIVATELY designed tax code, a.k.a. Rommunism.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
61. This is very premature
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 05:13 PM
Oct 2012

Congress make up is involved. Why tell President Obama what to do with that uncertainty?

bucolic_frolic

(43,168 posts)
65. I'm surprised theses GOPers support any kind of insurance
Mon Oct 1, 2012, 05:28 PM
Oct 2012

and insurance began as a mutual aid society. If your house
catches fire and burns down, you have neighbors to put the
fire out and help in the rebuilding.

Mutual insurance.

These right wingers aren't crying "SOCIALISM!" there.

Why aren't they trying to overturn the idea of Commonwealth?

Several states are still Commonwealth states.

These GOPers are really out there on a limb.

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