The bigger Obama's margin of victory, the more Citizens United will fade as an issue.

[Nye Bevan]

If the Koch Brothers cannot buy an election even in this economy, perhaps money in politics is less of an issue than many believed. Perhaps people are smart enough not to vote for someone simply because some TV commercial tells them to.

[Scuba]

1. It won't fade here in Wisconsin where Koch money flooded the recall and allowed Wanker to stay.

[BeyondGeography]

2. It's not going away; CU's real damage is at the state/local level

National candidates are much better able to compete financially. Think about the 10:1 differential in WI, for instance...

[ReasonableToo]

7. Agree

[ibegurpard]

28. yup. we're getting fucked six ways to Sunday in Montana

[uponit7771]

38. +1 CU wasn't aimed at federal level

[Zalatix]

41. +1000! Don't forget WI!

[fleur-de-lisa]

3. That's a nice sentiment but

Citizens United will not just fade away. We all have to work to find a way of reversing it. The rightwingers will simply resort to even worse tactics the during the next election cycle if this endless flow of money isn't stopped.

[Warren DeMontague]

9. The lesson here is, past a certain point throwing money at elections is counterproductive.

People tune out.

The money doesn't buy the votes. I'm sure the Koch types thought it would, but the lesson here is, sorry, people have their own brains and can make up their own minds and eventually you're just forcing them to fast forward the DVR and pissing them off.

[99th_Monkey]

30. +10 ~nt

[april]

4. the Koch bros think that they can prostitute our elections

money is not going to buy this one ..

[flamingdem]

5. Careful!! They are focusing on down ticket candidates and still want to

hamstring Obama for four more years

[Luminous Animal]

6. There are many important elections besides the national ones.

[Warren DeMontague]

12. Yes, and with any luck we are looking at some positive downticket effects for the Democratic Party

I'm feeling good about the Democratic Party, Four More Years of a Democratic President, and even our chances for a Democratic Congress! Aren't you?

[Luminous Animal]

21. We have elections every two years. I just simply cannot agree that

Citizens United will not have an affect on elections.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. I think it will have an e-ffect, yes.

And I would like to see it overturned or, if necessary, negated through Constitutional action, although of course the odds of that happening are slim.

Still, the lesson here is that the American People are smarter than some people want to give them credit for, and while there are those that like to believe we are all helpless, mindless automatons in the face of things like advertising or images or anything else, the bottom line is that people- not money, not advertisements- are the ones who vote.

That said, though, don't you agree? Plenty of good reason to feel enthusiastic and fired up about our party and our President, right?!

[sadbear]

8. Maybe CU isn't about winning in 2012.

Perhaps that's what they're doing...making everyone think that Democrats CAN win under CU so it won't be immediately overturned, and then unleash hell in 2014 or 2016.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. That's an awful elaborate conspiracy theory.

And it's belied by the fact that they ARE throwing a lot of money at this election, it's just not working the way they want it to.

[sadbear]

18. Would you put it past them? I wouldn't.

It's not that elaborate, either.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. The idea that they are deliberately throwing this election so that they can protect the CU decision?

Maybe it's not elaborate, but it doesn't make any sense.

If they get their butts kicked this cycle, it's going to make implementing and protecting their agenda harder, not easier.

[sadbear]

39. Throwing elections is not new to them.

Dole and McCain, for example.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. While I agree that it's hard to imagine anyone could run a campaign this bad not deliberately

I still don't buy the notion that the devious puppet master is really that friggin' powerful. Sometimes they fuck up, and a lot of times they lose. Karl Rove only got where he was by being a combination of mean and lucky. Master Machiavellian strategist, he actually aint.

The GOP in general is in deep, deep, deep doo-doo. What you may see as the last piece in the jigsaw puzzle of the Kochs cementing total control over the country, may actually be the dying gasp of a demographically doomed dinosaur. The GOP is increasingly appealing only to yabbering, incoherent old dudes like Clint Eastwood; and they're not getting any younger.

Of course, the idea that the GOP PTBs are already planning a Jeb Bush "restoration" in 2016; I have no doubt some of them are.

Still, I do think they're in trouble- real trouble, not the made up kind.

[bigbrother05]

22. The RW has been trying to "fix" the political process for decades

Waiting a couple of more election cycles won't bother them very much.

Their hope is to reverse all progressive gains, ever, not just since the 60s. Their ideal is more related to the pre-Teddy R. days when there were no protection from rampant capitalism.

Or pre-Garfield days when the government was populated via the spoils system.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. I understand what they want, yes.

But the problem is that all the money in the world can't make people vote the way they want them to vote. That's the last line.

[bigbrother05]

33. You can't beat something with nothing, no matter how much you spend

The problem is the right claiming that CU isn't a problem if Obama wins. We must do everything necessary to fix that because it would matter in a close election and will be huge in the local races and Congress.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. I don't think the people who care are going to be swayed by that argument.

And net, I think having 4 more years of Obama picking SCOTUS replacements as well as the Democratic Party driving the agenda out of DC, will be far more detrimental to the prospects of CU.

[Zalatix]

42. They'll shift their money downticket, to state and local elections.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. I agree.

Past a certain point, all the advertising money becomes counterproductive.

[McCamy Taylor]

13. Are you suggesting we do not mobilize Dem voters so that there will be a close election

or even a GOP steal so that Americans will become more alarmed at Citizens United? This sounds a lot like Nader and those who wanted Bush to win, because he would be so bad that it would make Americans more political.

I would prefer to see Obama win and Americans prosper.

[enough]

14. I wish I could agree. What will happen is that the money will

aim itself at Senate and House races, statewide legislative races, and above all judicial races at all levels anywhere where judges are elected.

[mstinamotorcity2]

15. It will still

make a difference. There is a definite need to REPEAL Citizens United. Corporations are not People. They are institutions of commerce. We are the People.The problem is all the Dark Money and Super Pacs are very dangerous. After overturning Citizen's United, we need Campaign Finance Reform. And Better Vetting of Candidates. They should be open to scrutiny. And yes Ms. Romney people will attack Your Tax Returns if you would let anyone see them. By the way where are those 2000 - 2009 Tax Returns??

[WilliamPitt]

16. It better not fucking fade.

In fact, overturning it better be the god damned hood ornament on Obama's second term, and better be priority #1 for Democrats in Congress.

It's not working because Romney is hopeless. Combine a GOP candidate with charisma and the money provided by Citizens United, and that's the ball game.

[jonthebru]

17. The thing is that the money talks.

The reason rmoney is their candidate is the money. Many potential candidates didn't have his cash and couldn't compete so they ended up with him to their chagrin

[Initech]

19. Citizens United should have never been an issue to begin with.

It's just another reminder that our corporate overlords can fuck with us and steal it all for themselves any time they want. I'm surprised the Koch Roaches haven't made themselves gods yet.

[rhett o rick]

20. Dont count your chicken just yet. They made a big mistake in Romney but they are learning.

The oligarchs thought that big money could get anyone elected. I mean George Bush the special son got elected even w/o CU. So the oligarchs didnt count on just how bad Romney is. All the kings horses and all the kings men couldnt make Humpty Romney human.

The kings wont make that mistake in 2016. In the mean time their money is going into local elections.

[Skidmore]

23. The law will still stand and precedent has been set.

It needs to be repealed.

[LiberalAndProud]

24. Romney's candidacy may be a direct result of Citizens United

which poses an interesting conundrum. Even so, that ruling should not stand, IMHO. I know the ACLU disagrees with me, but if you must buy speech, it's not free.

[99th_Monkey]

29. Not in my Universe

If Obama manages to win this thing IN SPITE of Citizens United,
and IN SPITE of massive voter suppression, and IN SPITE of the fact
that 80% of the e-voting machines are under direct control of GOP
owned and operated private corporations ... that doesn't mean
these three influences on our democratic institutions are A-ok.

If he manages to win this, ALL THREE of the above remain HUGE
ISSUES for me and for the country IMHO. Until these influences are
completely purged and eliminated, American democracy is still on
life-support systems.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. Money is important, but enough is enough and too much really is too much.

If one candidate is broke and the other loaded, that's one thing. If both have plenty, how much more one has than the other is moot. Buying more ads does not always help, they are not magic spells, and very often even a good ad over played becomes a drag.
They are as sick that surfiet with too much as they that starve with nothing...

[Vinnie From Indy]

32. Absolute NONSENSE!!!!

I find it astonishing that anyone would suggest that even if the ultra-wealthy cannot sell this particular shit sandwich to America that they will simply give up and not try again. The naivete of that sentiment is off the charts.

Citizens United is a cancer on our democracy.

[bemildred]

34. I disagree, the national parties won't like it, it takes power from them.

And they will "fix it" eventually.

[11 Bravo]

35. When President Obama is re-elected and Fat Tony finally chokes on his own bile ...

Citizens United will be over-turned.

[spanone]

36. it needs to be gone. china could buy the next one.

[DonRedwood]

40. they are buying school boards, city gov's, county govs, state govs all over the country

don't think they aren't making a multii-prong attack on all levels of gov.

[Egnever]

44. Thank god some sanity

I thought this thread was doomed.

We will lose many races that we might have otherwise won without CU.

Just because Romney is a horrible candidate that does not mean CU is not having an effect.

The republican primary was a perfect example of its effects. Gingrich stayed in the race based solely on one persons money. Admitedly he didnt win but he shouldn't even have been a contender.

It's the local races where its really going to hurt.

[aandegoons]

45. Somehow we must break the money plus politics equals more money formula.

I would bet that they are in this for the long haul. Remember they have perfected the American push right with the tools they already had. This is just icing on the cake.

As long as they can keep a good number of republicans in place they can keep pushing for more tax breaks for themselves then use that money to buy more politicians we are in trouble. It may not be long in coming when they start to buy the most conservative of democrats.

Honestly I don't even think they are truly conservative. They are just using what is easily manipulated for their own gain. Conservatism and Religion give them the easily fooled. Once the easily fooled are in the bag and it turns out to be not enough they will just move to incorporate the next easiest target. Case in point would be Senator Joe Liberman.

No I don't think this is even remotely over until we start to get money out of politics in this country. If we don't at least accomplish that we are doomed as a democracy.