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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCharismatic is NOT Catholic teaching!
https://sspx.org/en/catholic-charismatic-renewalThus woman does belong to a cult! Waving your arms and babbling incoherent nonsense is NOT orthodox Catholic teaching!
This is fringe teaching
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)Shes a member of People of Praise, a charismatic covenant community in South Bend, Indiana, that has been criticized by former members for being a religious cult. Though most of its members are Catholic, its practices, including speaking in tongues and faith healing, draw more from fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity than the Vatican. One of its most notable features is the submissive role played by women, some of whom were called handmaidsat least until the Handmaids Tale aired in 2017, At that point, the group started referring to them as women leaders.
Perhaps the most prominent voice regarding the problems with People of Praise is Adrian Reimers, a longtime Notre Dame university professor who was one of the groups original founders in 1971. In an article published in the Cultic Studies Journal in 1986, he said the tight psychological and social controls over it maintains over its members led his family to leave the community, which he believed had strayed from its Catholic roots. At one point, he writes, other leaders even discouraged him from seeking spiritual advice from priests, suggesting that the church was secondary to the covenant community.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/09/its-not-anti-catholic-to-ask-amy-coney-barrett-about-her-religious-group-people-of-praise/
Bettie
(16,144 posts)then you are among liars or people on a whole lot of drugs.
Belief in faith healing kills people.
It is a cult.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Saying you practice prophecy is also forbidden in the Catechism. Attempting to know the future is a grave matter.
jaxexpat
(6,870 posts)So what does THAT mean? It means don't let cultists' beliefs determine law or interpret the constitution. Don't support them for elected office and sure as hell don't vote for them.
And that goes for those who support unbridled, inherited wealth too. Another kind of cult that actually causes more societal harm than the metaphysical baloney.
When the two are mixed into a kind of gooey soup of wrong-headedness you have Trumpism. Which is still strange since Trump has NO code of anything.
Bettie
(16,144 posts)they are personal and private. Policy should NEVER be based on religion. Ever.
What her church actually is makes a difference when they start screaming about anti-Catholic bias when most of the court is already Catholic.
Religion is honestly the most corrosive thing in human society.
TheBlackAdder
(28,244 posts).
She's chosen by the HS as indicative of her Glossolalia. No matter what she does is sanctioned by God.
Charismatics believe that when someone speaks in tongues, it's a transient visit by the HS to convey a message to the person or congregation, then the HS leaves the body. Of course, someone in the congregation is able to understand was is being said.
.
KWR65
(1,098 posts)They are mad about Vatican 2.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)There is no re-baptism in Catholic teaching. To do so would imply that the original sacraments of baptism and confirmation were incomplete, inadequate, or somehow flawed. Needing to redo it is a blaspheme
And SSPX is considered flawed but still valid by the See
Tanuki
(14,926 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)A traditional adherent. Scalia was a pre-Vatican II kind of guy, attending old school Latin masses. No one REALLY knows what this lady is, does, or believes. This is the devil you DONT know.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)"The Catholic Charismatic Movement is a blighted tree bearing poisonous fruit, sown by the Devil among Protestants and transplanted into the Church after Vatican II. The delirium of contemporary Churchmen has watered it, and the lack of an adequate Catholic formation among priests and laity has cleared and tilled the fertile soil in which it has grown.
More people eat of its deadly fruit yearly, and the vulnerable young, so eager for the profound knowledge of God and the sense of the supernatural denied them by the Conciliar Church, are especially at risk. A generation of children is growing up thinking of Charismatics as perfectly normal (or even superior) Catholics.
This fruit is truly a seed of destruction and one of the most perilous fruits offered to man since the first fruit offered to the first Eve by the same serpent. May the new Eve, the Blessed Virgin Mary, to whom it has been given to crush the serpents head, intercede for the Church and free the world from the peril in which it now lies as a result of the Catholic Charismatic Movement!"
Tanuki
(14,926 posts).. "This Pentecost begins a new stage begins on the journey inaugurated by the Charismatic Renewal fifty-two years ago. The Charismatic Renewal, which developed in the Church by the will of God, represents, to paraphrase Saint Paul VI, a great opportunity for the Church (cf. Address to Participants in the III International Congress of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, 19 May 1975).l
....
Today one thing ends and another begins. A new stage of this journey is beginning. A stage marked by communion between all the members of the charismatic family, in which the mighty presence of the Holy Spirit is manifested for the good of the entire Church. A presence that makes each one equal, since each has been born of the same Spirit: great and small, old and young, engaged on the worldwide or local levels, all form a whole that is always greater than the part.
A new and unique service of communion
New. As I told you at the Circus Maximus, what is new can be destabilizing. In the beginning, there is a sense of uncertainty about the changes that newness brings. Sometimes we prefer our own way of doing things and we draw back from the rest. This is a temptation of the devil. Whenever anyone things: No, my way is better, or I prefer the old to the new, the devil is there, because he cuts me off from unity with everyone else. True, a certain fear about what is new is quite human, but this should not be the case with spiritual persons. Behold, I make all things new, the Lord tells us in the Book of Revelation (21:5). Our God is the God of newness. The new things of God are always a blessing because they flow from his loving heart. There is always a temptation to say: We are fine the way we are; things are going well, why change? Lets leave things as they are; we know what we are doing. This kind of thinking does not come from the Spirit. Perhaps from the spirit of the world, but not from the Holy Spirit. Dont make this mistake. It is the Lord who says: I make all things new....(more)
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Accused of not following traditional teachings, trying to change the Church, and called a liberal with disdain.
Comey is NOT a traditional Catholic. We gave no idea WHAT this woman is or who she answers to.
ancianita
(36,207 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 27, 2020, 11:40 AM - Edit history (2)
As a child with no choice allowed to her...
she was brainwashed to serve and obey the church of self-proclaimed spiritually superior males who worship a male god,
then schooled as a young woman in legal preservations of male patriarchal dominance over 51% of Americans,
Barrett is now the cover for men's renewed onslaught on the body autonomy, equality of free will and spirituality of Americas 51%.
Every conservative, every gun toting reactionary, must answer for the men and women they elect who put these patriarchal dominators at the heads of democratic republic governments. They are men, and women groomed by men, who together groom their innocent daughters to submit to a lifetime of inequality -- then to deny and defend that life as their own choice -- perpetuate the soft evil essence uncivilized domination.
She wears an invisible burka.
Patriarchal government systems -- justified by male god, male owned believer systems.
Believers are the bane of humans and the planet.
Civilization will never advance while half of it is preoccupied at every turn with keeping its collective knee on the necks of the other half.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)DeminPennswoods
(15,294 posts)because they need members to offset the declining membership of its traditional churches..
Tanuki
(14,926 posts)according to the Southern Poverty Law Center? It is also far outside the mainstream of Catholic thought and teaching, clinging to the Latin mass and rejecting many of the reforms of Vatican II.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2015/radical-powerhouse
"The powerhouse organization of the radical traditionalist Catholic world is a sprawling international order called the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), founded by the late French archbishop, Marcel-François Lefebvre, in 1970. Although there have been recent attempts by the Vatican to pull SSPX back into the Catholic mainstream, the organization, all of whose priests were excommunicated in the late 1980s, has continued to publish anti-Semitic materials, flirt with Holocaust denial and reject any reconciliation with the Catholic Church.
Lefebvre was always on the hard right. During World War II, he supported the pro-Nazi Vichy regime, a puppet government in the part of France not occupied by the Germans. He lamented the eventual liberation of the country, describing it as "the victory of Freemasonry against the Catholic order of Petain. It was the invasion of the barbarians without faith or law!"
Lefebvre later was on an advisory committee to the Second Vatican Council (1962-65), which enacted several liberalizing and modernizing reforms within the church. But the archbishop refused to sign the council's final reports on religious liberty and the modern church, the first sign of a rebellion that would only grow in later years. In 1970, he founded SSPX as a seminary in Ecône, Switzerland.
In 1974, Lefebvre publicly denounced as heretical the Vatican II reforms and the subsequent adoption of the new Mass, celebrated in local languages instead of traditional Latin. As a result, Pope Paul VI ordered the archbishop to shut down his Swiss seminary. But Lefebvre refused to comply, leading the Vatican to suspend his right to perform priestly functions (a step short of excommunication) in 1976.
In 1988, Lefebvre took his most radical step yet, consecrating four bishops in defiance of the Vatican. Pope John Paul II responded by excommunicating Lefebvre and all SSPX priests, and declaring SSPX in formal schism with the church.
The following year, police arrested fugitive French war criminal Paul Touvier, who had been hidden for years by the order, at an SSPX monastery in Nice, France. Touvier was later convicted of ordering the execution of seven Jews in 1944.
Also in 1989, one of Lefebvre's "bishops," Englishman Richard Williamson, gave a speech to a Canadian church in which he decried the alleged persecution of Holocaust denier and neo-Nazi Ernst Zundel by the Canadian government. Williams, then rector of SSPX's main North American seminary in Winona, Minn., told his audience: "There was not one Jew killed in the gas chambers. It was all lies, lies, lies." The Canadian government reacted by banning all SSPX publications.
In the course of his struggle with the Vatican, Lefebvre became a hero to many, emerging as the world's leading critic of church reforms ending the Latin Mass and reaching out to other religions. Already by the mid-1970s, priests ordained by the archbishop were starting chapels and seminaries in the United States. Today, SSPX's American operation, headquartered in Kansas City, Kan., claims 103 chapels and 25 schools, in addition to Kansas City-based Angelus Press. Scholar Michael Cuneo has estimated SSPX has up to 30,000 U. S. adherents.
It is in The Angelus, published monthly by the SSPX press, and on SSPX's website, that the radical anti-Semitism of the order is most evident today. One example now on the website is a 1997 Angelus article by SSPX priests Michael Crowdy and Kenneth Novak that calls for locking Jews into ghettos because "Jews are known to kill Christians." It also blames Jews for the French Revolution, communism and capitalism; suggests a Judeo-Masonic conspiracy has destroyed the Catholic Church; and describes Judaism as "inimical to all nations."
Another document reproduced on the SSPX's current website is a 1959 letter from Lefebvre's close friend, Bishop Gerald Sigaud, who also rejected the Vatican II reforms. "Money, the media, and international politics are for a large part in the hands of Jews," Bishop Sigaud wrote. "Those who have revealed the atomic secrets of the USA were
all Jews. The founders of communism were Jews."
The Angelus Press sells anti-Semitic tomes like Hilaire Beloc's The Jews, which blames Jews for Bolshevism and corrupt financial practices, and Monsignor George Dillon's Freemasonry Unmasked, which purports to explain a centuries-old Judeo-Masonic plot to destroy the Catholic Church. More recent SSPX publications include the 2005 pamphlet Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, by Franz Schmidberger, the former superior general of the SSPX. Schmidberger denounces Third World immigration into Western countries as "destroying our national identity and, furthermore, the whole of Christianity," and accuses the Jews of deicide.
Other extremists published in the pages of The Angelus (and carried on the SSPX's current website) include the late Father Denis Fahey; John Vennari, head of Catholic Family News; and Robert Sungenis, the particularly virulent leader of Catholic Apologetics International (see profile, p. 28)."...(more)
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)SSPX is traditional pre-Vatican, with all of its warts, prejudice, and ugliness. The same Church that brought us sex scandal, teenaged girls rushed to orphanages, and a myriad of issues.
The point is, what Barrett is NOT orthodox, not traditional, as they will claim
On edit: I am NOT advocating, I am saying they are going to hold her up as Orthodox. This is not Scalia holding onto the Latin Mass. What she believes clashes strongly with orthodox. What is she? What does she really believe? This is an entirely new animal
FBaggins
(26,783 posts)Citing SSPX as a source for what the RCC teaches is at best ironic.
Ridiculous and hypocritical fit better.
Wouldnt expect anyone on DU citing them as a source. But it certainly explains some earlier comments.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Sect to show what they truly believe and show the discrepancy?
She is NOT a Traditional Catholic! Mel Gibson is an extreme version of it though (or at least he was) - this lady is a member of something completely different.
You seem to like and the Charismatic Movement? Why? Original Catholicism is pretty bad, add a healthy dose of evangelical bullshit and now its really bad
FBaggins
(26,783 posts)If self-describing as Catholic makes them Catholic... then? POP is largely made up of people who self-describe as Catholic.
SSPX doesnt consider most people in the RCC (including more than one pope) to be Catholic. It isnt rational to use their nutty standard for that evaluation.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)I can list a host of Traditional Catholic sources who think this stuff is outside of Catholic teaching. The SSPX article just summed up all of the arguments succinctly.
FBaggins
(26,783 posts)... are actual RCC sources who say so.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)You are a Charismatic arent you?
FBaggins
(26,783 posts)IOW... not even close.
Example:
Drahthaardogs - "Charismatic is NOT Catholic teaching! "
Vatican - https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2019-06/charis-a-new-service-for-the-catholic-charismatic-renewal.html
Question for the inquisitive reader: Who speaks for the RCC - Drahthaardogs or the Vatican?
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Yet they clearly say long term members make a Lifelong Covenant. Its literally a fucking bullet point on their webpage.
Whats going on here?
FBaggins
(26,783 posts)They explicitly distinguish between covenant and oath.
You certainly cant claim that Catholics oppose covenants... since they use the term for far more relationships than most Christians.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)So would it make you feel better if I quoted The Church Militant or One Peter Five?
This is fringe, new-aged, Pentecostal teaching. Again, the brand of Catholicism this lady is selling is NOT Classic Coke.
Bottom Line is we have no idea who this lady really is, but shes no orthodox Catholic
FBaggins
(26,783 posts)... if you stopped using groups that consider most Catholics (including the current pope) to be heretics - as your source for who really counts as being Catholic.
You've had multiple posts on this thread alone pointing out that the pope doesn't consider charismatic catholics (~160 million of them) to be non-catholic. Yet you continue to respond with the position of even more-fringe groups.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)With someone who is. The point is, this will be held up as something traditional, which is bullshit. It formed in the 1960s, and yeah, its fucking weird.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)They equate their covenant to people of praise to RELIGIOUS VOWS! Like a nuns vows or orders like a priest.
Dont bother replying. You obviously have some kind of sympathy or affection for these lunatics, who are even bigger lunatics than the traditional guts. You are defending the indefensible.
FBaggins
(26,783 posts)Is there some reason that the rest of us should fall for it?
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)This covenant is a pledge of love and service to fellow community members and to God, resembling the permanent commitments made in Christian religious orders
Why are you defending these grifters and hucksters?
FBaggins
(26,783 posts)Their website also clearly says "Our covenant is neither an oath nor a vow"
Yet you have described it as both.
The full quote was: "...resembling the permanent commitments made in Christian religious orders and in many other covenant and intentional communities around the world." - which is clearly not the same thing as the "religious vows" that nuns and priests might take. They nowhere pretend to priests (other than the few that are actually priests and a bishop)
Why are you defending these grifters and hucksters?
Not defending them at all. If you make an allegation that is actually true I doubt I would have much to say. The problem is that you purport to describe both what they believe and what the RCC teaches and then contrast them... when you seem to understand the beliefs of neither organization.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)But its like orders that other religious orders take that are oaths and vows. Um, err, uh ??????
Lol, give it up! Seriously, why are you defending these wackadoodles? It makes no sense. They are neither mainstream nor traditional. They are an anomaly.
As to your rhetorical question, looks like plenty of DUers believe me!
FBaggins
(26,783 posts)Nope.
There are any number of DUers (and likely people in general) who feel off-put about lifelong commitments, "headship" of husbands over wives, "handmaidens", as well as tongues/prophesy/etc.
Most of those things are outside of the mainstream... and certainly in conjunction with one another.
But that isn't the nonsense you've been pushing. You've been trying to push this SSPX claptrap that she can't even be called Catholic because "charismatic" and "Catholic" are contradictory.
When the RCC says that there are actually 160 million charismatic Catholics.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Pentecostal and Protestant roots. They are NOT traditional, not mainstream, and even the Pope says while they are accepted, it calls for extra caution because, lets face it, they ARE walking the razors edge between Catholicism and something entirely different.
There are 1.2 BILLION Catholics worldwide. A small percentage are Charismatic. They are fringe. What is your deal? Why do you want so bad to normalize these nuts?
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)Since the First Amendment guarantees the right to practice any religion, even one of your own inspiration, and it guarantees the right to promote it through preaching and publication, there have been numerous religious startups ever since the early 1800s.
Thus, the US has hundreds of fairly wacky sects, some of which have grown quite large, and most of which don't have many followers elsewhere. Most other places have a dominant religion explicitly or tacitly supported by the government to keep a lid on the more outlandish nonsense.
Religion was to the verbal and print world what conspiracy theories are to the new social media.
ashredux
(2,612 posts)ashredux
(2,612 posts)Klaralven
(7,510 posts)Pentecostalism emerged in the early 20th century among radical adherents of the Holiness movement who were energized by revivalism and expectation for the imminent Second Coming of Christ.[3] Believing that they were living in the end times, they expected God to spiritually renew the Christian Church thereby bringing to pass the restoration of spiritual gifts and the evangelization of the world. In 1900, Charles Parham, an American evangelist and faith healer, began teaching that speaking in tongues was the Bible evidence of Spirit baptism and along with William J. Seymour, a Wesleyan-Holiness preacher, he taught that this was the third work of grace.[4] The three-year-long Azusa Street Revival, founded and led by Seymour in Los Angeles, California, resulted in the spread of Pentecostalism throughout the United States and the rest of the world as visitors carried the Pentecostal experience back to their home churches or felt called to the mission field. While virtually all Pentecostal denominations trace their origins to Azusa Street, the movement has experienced a variety of divisions and controversies. An early dispute centered on challenges to the doctrine of the Trinity. As a result, the Pentecostal movement is divided between trinitarian and non-trinitarian branches, resulting in the emergence of Oneness Pentecostals.
Comprising over 700 denominations and many independent churches, there is no central authority governing Pentecostalism; however, many denominations are affiliated with the Pentecostal World Fellowship. There are over 279 million Pentecostals worldwide, and the movement is growing in many parts of the world, especially the global South. Since the 1960s, Pentecostalism has increasingly gained acceptance from other Christian traditions, and Pentecostal beliefs concerning Spirit baptism and spiritual gifts have been embraced by non-Pentecostal Christians in Protestant and Catholic churches through the Charismatic Movement. Together, Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity numbers over 500 million adherents.[5] While the movement originally attracted mostly lower classes in the global South, there is an increasing appeal to middle classes.[6][7][8] Middle class congregations tend to be more adapted to society and withdraw strong spiritual practices such as divine healing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism
Cerridwen
(13,260 posts)real estate empires - top 20(?)ish?
Mormon global business empire
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/photo-essays/2012-07-12/the-mormon-global-business-empire
DeminPennswoods
(15,294 posts)There is certainly plenty of meat on the bone for Dems to ask her about.
RicROC
(1,204 posts)I hear several commentators on MSNBC report that she is an 'orthodox Catholic. I always thought the term referred to the Eastern Rite churches, like Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Roman Rite is only one of many. Coptic Catholics for example uses the Alexandian Rite. Some Anglican Churches are in communion as well. Its a little complicated and to be honest, I know the basics, but get lost in the finer details.
However, the point I am trying to make is that they are going to sell her snake oil under the guise of orthodox and traditional, when nothing could be further from the truth!
RicROC
(1,204 posts)She is a Fundamentalist Catholic? is there such a moniker?
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Is what they call it
ret5hd
(20,557 posts)LiberalArkie
(15,733 posts)Not Christian at all.
Mariana
(14,861 posts)Roland99
(53,342 posts)JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,375 posts)It's an old rock group
BlueWavePsych
(2,641 posts)Vote him out! GOTV
Yavin4
(35,453 posts)And as we debate invisible men in the sky, millions of Americans may not get access to life saving science known as medicine.
tenderfoot
(8,438 posts)eom