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Sophiegirl

(2,338 posts)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 09:19 PM Sep 2012

Can someone smarter than me answer this?

Why does Mitt say that taxes on Capital Gains have already had taxes paid by the income that was originally derived, therefore they deserve a lower rate of taxation?

It seems to me that Capital Gains are "new" income and have nothing to do with the original tax levied on the income that originated those investments.

This is not a rhetorical question. I'm not an expert on this.

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Can someone smarter than me answer this? (Original Post) Sophiegirl Sep 2012 OP
Saying things have been taxed twice is an R mantra treestar Sep 2012 #1
Dividends are NOT capital gains. GeorgeGist Sep 2012 #11
Well, true, I guess. But dividends are taxed at the same rate as cg, aren't they? nt Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #21
Capital gains being taxed is even less sympathetic treestar Sep 2012 #23
That is the lie the GOP tells people. liberal N proud Sep 2012 #2
I would think you are correct. Tennessee Gal Sep 2012 #3
since you buy the asset that give the capitol gain with post tax dollars NMDemDist2 Sep 2012 #4
but... it is still newly earned money. so that money had not been taxed yet. nt seabeyond Sep 2012 #9
But is that situation specific to stocks that pay dividends? TroglodyteScholar Sep 2012 #18
Dividends and Capital Gains are two different things. A HERETIC I AM Sep 2012 #20
I too would like to understand this. Betsy Ross Sep 2012 #5
I'm not smarter than you but made capital gains taxes had nothing to do with other taxes. nanabugg Sep 2012 #6
Dunno. elleng Sep 2012 #7
He is trying to confuse it with dividend income 1-Old-Man Sep 2012 #8
His argument seems to be that capital is derived from taxed income Spider Jerusalem Sep 2012 #10
Romney is being disingenuous. bluestate10 Sep 2012 #12
why disingenuous. This is the classic economic rationale for a lower cap gains rate - monies are Laura PourMeADrink Sep 2012 #14
I interpreted Romney's remarks... DreamGypsy Sep 2012 #13
From the horse's mouth... TreasonousBastard Sep 2012 #15
The only capital gains tax I ever paid was Silver Swan Sep 2012 #16
OK...from a former broker (Me) Here's the logic and the definitions..... A HERETIC I AM Sep 2012 #17
Excellent post B Calm Sep 2012 #19
It makes sense.. Sophiegirl Sep 2012 #24
Excellent explanation SickOfTheOnePct Sep 2012 #25
I stand corrected. A HERETIC I AM Sep 2012 #26
No problem, wasn't trying to be a pain SickOfTheOnePct Sep 2012 #27
You weren't. You reminded me another pertinent point in all this.... A HERETIC I AM Sep 2012 #28
OK... Sophiegirl Sep 2012 #22
So, by that "logic" ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #29
But what bothers most ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #30
There is another side to capital gains - That is capital losses slackmaster Sep 2012 #31
Well stated. N/ T A HERETIC I AM Sep 2012 #32
Bain Capital does not pay corporate income taxes PETRUS Sep 2012 #33

treestar

(82,383 posts)
1. Saying things have been taxed twice is an R mantra
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 09:22 PM
Sep 2012

But there are taxes on many exchanges of money, so all money gets taxed over and over.

But they try to make it some special victimization - a corporation is an entity of itself, so when it makes a profit, that money is taxed. Then it gets paid in dividends to shareholders - so that money is taxes. The "argument" is that therefore the same money is taxed twice. The corporation pays taxes on it, then the shareholder who received the dividend does.



Your income is taxed and then you pay sales tax, so it would be the same there. But the right never whines about that one!

treestar

(82,383 posts)
23. Capital gains being taxed is even less sympathetic
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:40 AM
Sep 2012

Since the "gain" never existed before, it is now taxed for the first time, and only upon sale of the shares at a higher price.

But my point was that was what they are talking about when they go on about "double taxation." It is what they mean. That's why they invented the "S" corporation, with its partnership-type of taxing, so that smaller corporations would not have to pay the corporate level tax.

liberal N proud

(60,338 posts)
2. That is the lie the GOP tells people.
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 09:22 PM
Sep 2012

Much of the public never sees capital gains therefore they believe the lie.

Tennessee Gal

(6,160 posts)
3. I would think you are correct.
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 09:22 PM
Sep 2012

The gain is earned from the investment of the original money. Therefore, the gain is not a part of the original investment monies that were taxed. The gain has never been taxed.

At least that is the way my simple mind understands it.

Someone please explain if I am wrong.

NMDemDist2

(49,313 posts)
4. since you buy the asset that give the capitol gain with post tax dollars
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 09:23 PM
Sep 2012

say i buy 500 shares of Apple with my pay check

the dividends i get are new money from the old taxed money i used to buy the stock

since the original investment $$$ have already been taxed (when i earned them the first time) Rmoney claims the new $$$ should be at a lower rate

hope that helped

Betsy Ross

(3,147 posts)
5. I too would like to understand this.
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 09:23 PM
Sep 2012

A company pays taxes on profits so they have less money to distribute to investors. That may be the logic.

 

nanabugg

(2,198 posts)
6. I'm not smarter than you but made capital gains taxes had nothing to do with other taxes.
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 09:24 PM
Sep 2012

And when Mitt says that money was already subject to corporate taxes that MAY BE as high as 35% he fails to tell you that the corporate is 35% but rarely is that paid by our corporations. Im any cases no corporate taxes are paid because of all the loop holes. It's just more hooey.

Sure you may have paid taxes on your income and then you decide to invest some of that income which has already been taxed as income. When that income earns profits you only pay the capital gains rate on the profit...but that profit is really new money, isn't it? Just my take.

elleng

(130,980 posts)
7. Dunno.
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 09:24 PM
Sep 2012

Some taxes are paid by corporations,so he's calling that 'income?' Capital Gains only OCCUR when stockholders sell their stock for more than for what they bought them; that sale results in the GAIN.

Lots of us are learning about the concept of Capital Gains, and that's a good thing, imo.

1-Old-Man

(2,667 posts)
8. He is trying to confuse it with dividend income
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 09:24 PM
Sep 2012

He says that investment income is taxed twice because first it is taxed at the corporate rate and then what is dispersed to the shareholders is taxed again. Well, that may be so for dividend payments but that is not the same thing as capital gains. There is no double taxation on capital gains.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
10. His argument seems to be that capital is derived from taxed income
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 09:31 PM
Sep 2012

which has been taxed once, as income, and therefore shouldn't be taxed again at the same rate. Although for individuals sharing Romney's socioeconomic status income is rarely taxed as income (the reason executives receive stock options as compensation is that it's taxed when sold at the capital gains rate, not the income rate, so it's a massive dodge in many cases anyway). And there are a number of wealthy people who have no tax liability at all because their income is interest from investments in tax-free municipal bonds. So arguing that their taxable capital gains income from other investments should be taxed lower is obviously absurd.

bluestate10

(10,942 posts)
12. Romney is being disingenuous.
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 10:13 PM
Sep 2012

Several classes of income get taxed first when a company or group earn it then taxed again when distributed as a partnership share, bonus, ect. The distribution is to a person and counts as income to that person. Every american that gets a bonus as part of their salary, Romney's statement should be poison, bonuses get taxed when given to an individual as income.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
14. why disingenuous. This is the classic economic rationale for a lower cap gains rate - monies are
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 10:29 PM
Sep 2012

taxed as corporate income and then again, as cap gains to recipients (i.e. Romney)

This makes total sense to me.

DreamGypsy

(2,252 posts)
13. I interpreted Romney's remarks...
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 10:25 PM
Sep 2012

... as others have in their replies, as referring to Corporate Income Tax and Capital Gains Tax, and not dividend income.

I posted my meager analysis of the problem here on DU last evening: Corprorate Tax Dodgers.

Contains some links to information about US tax rates that some US corporations pay on their income.


TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
15. From the horse's mouth...
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 10:49 PM
Sep 2012
http://www.ntu.org/news-and-issues/taxes/eliminate-double-taxation-cap-gains-dividends.html

This is, btw, the most simplistic, self-serving bullshit imaginable. Everything you buy you buy with income that has already been taxed-- so what?

The inflation issue I could buy, if the tax rate was higher so real gains could be taxed at real rates. I'd rather redefine the gains to get back to the idea of reduced taxation to balanced increased risk in a venture. With some of Romney's deals, he'd still get the break, but at least on something that worked besides making him a few riskless bucks.

Silver Swan

(1,110 posts)
16. The only capital gains tax I ever paid was
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 11:20 PM
Sep 2012

On the sale of our family farm.

The earnings from the farm had been taxed year to year, but the value of the farm itself was not taxed until it was sold.

But then, this was small potatoes compared to the great amounts of money the super rich get from tossing huge amounts of money back and forth, so I guess, I didn't deserve any breaks...

A HERETIC I AM

(24,371 posts)
17. OK...from a former broker (Me) Here's the logic and the definitions.....
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 11:49 PM
Sep 2012

Capital Gain = the difference between what you paid for an asset (a stock, a bond, real estate, etc.) and what you SELL it for.

Example:
In early 2009, you could have bought Ford Stock for $1.50 a share (it actually had an all time low of $1.01 - whew! talk about a missed opportunity, eh?) and it closed today at $10.32. It peaked at almost $19.00 in January of 2011. If you had bought 1000 shares at a buck fifty and sold today at the close, the difference between $1.50 and $10.32 ($8.82) is Capital Gains. In this particular case, since you held it for over one year, that 8.82 per share is taxed at the rate of 15% if I am not mistaken. If you had held it less than 365 days, any gain is taxed at 35%. This is designed to encourage longer term investing.

Dividends - money distributed to shareholders by the company, most often on a quarterly basis.

Example:
Along the way between early 2009 and today, Ford paid dividends of a nickel a share in January and April of this year. That $.05 per share is taxed as ordinary income, as if you had gotten a raise for one year only and it is taxed at your top marginal rate, whatever that is for the individual.

The logic here is that dividends are considered by the IRS to be in fact, income. Capital gains are not income because they are (supposedly) more of a rare event. Just like selling your house. It isn't something you do every quarter.


Both of these instances are NEW money to the shareholder. Free money, in fact. Even if you bought the shares with money from your paycheck - take home pay - money that has been taxed (as opposed to money in an IRA for example, which has yet to be taxed), it is still new money to you, so it is taxed as I mention above.

Does that help at all?

Sophiegirl

(2,338 posts)
24. It makes sense..
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:40 PM
Sep 2012

I guess I'm not on board with the capital gains tax being so low. It heavily favors the uber-rich as opposed to small-time investors who may, at any time, need to sell shares they might have held less than a year should they fall on hard times.

When someone is making $20M a year in capital gains alone, it's hard to imagine that individual being in such a situation. They probably make a significant amount in dividends - even though taxed at the higher rate - which are likely higher than the average middle classer's annual wage.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
25. Excellent explanation
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:47 PM
Sep 2012

One small correction - short term capital gains are taxed as regular income, so whatever marginal bracket you're in, that's the rate you'll pay for short term capital gains. If the gains take you up a bracket, you'll pay the higher marginal rate just for that amount.

Also, the money used to buy the stock isn't taxed again, just the gains.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,371 posts)
26. I stand corrected.
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:55 PM
Sep 2012

You are exactly correct.

According to the Wikipedia page on this subject

Capital gains are generally taxed at a preferential rate in comparison to ordinary income (26 U.S.C. §1(h)). The amount an investor is taxed depends on both his or her tax bracket, and the amount of time the investment was held before being sold. Short-term capital gains are taxed at the investor's ordinary income tax rate and are defined as investments held for a year or less before being sold. Long-term capital gains, which are gains on dispositions of assets held for more than one year, are taxed at a lower rate than short-term gains. In 2003, this rate was reduced to 15%, and to 5% for individuals in the lowest two income tax brackets. The reduced 15% tax rate on qualified dividends and long term capital gains, previously scheduled to expire in 2008, was extended through 2010 as a result of the Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 signed into law by President George W. Bush. This was extended through 2012 in legislation passed by Congress and signed by President Barack Obama on Dec 17, 2010. As a result:

In 2008–2012, the tax rate on qualified dividends and long term capital gains is 0% for those in the 10% and 15% income tax brackets.
After 2012, dividends will be taxed at the taxpayer's ordinary income tax rate, regardless of his or her tax bracket.
After 2012, the long-term capital gains tax rate will be 20% (10% for taxpayers in the 15% tax bracket).
After 2012, the qualified five-year 18% capital gains rate (8% for taxpayers in the 15% tax bracket) will be reinstated.


Thanks. I've gotten a little rusty on many of these details, as I haven't had to deal with them on a daily basis for quite a while now.

I do indeed appreciate the correction.


Underline emphasis in the above blockquote mine.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
27. No problem, wasn't trying to be a pain
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:08 PM
Sep 2012

I just knew because I had to sell stock when my ex wife and I divorced, and I remember having go through and figure out how much was more than a year old and how much was less. Inititally, I figured it wouldn't matter, but a friend told me to make sure I did it right in order to save as much on taxes as I could.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,371 posts)
28. You weren't. You reminded me another pertinent point in all this....
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:27 PM
Sep 2012

the need to keep track of "Cost Basis".

If an individual is a regular buyer of ....oh...say Ford stock, just to keep with my example above, and they purchase shares on a regular basis, they may have bought shares in one lot at $9.00 a share, 3 months later at $15.00 a share and 3 months after that at $11.00 a share. One look at a chart of Ford over the last 18 months will show a rather wild swing in price. A strategy to minimize Capital Gains is to use either "FIFO" (First In, First Out) or "LIFO" (Last In, First Out&quot accounting for shares sold AND there are other strategies as well, such as averaging.

There are numerous articles on this subject available from a quick Google search, so I won't go into any more detail (primarily because I am not an accountant!) but if anyone that might read this runs up against such a scenario, it is better to have the information than not.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
29. So, by that "logic" ...
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:55 PM
Sep 2012

Cars ought to be free for auto-workers ... since they would be paying for the car with money paid to them by the auto plant. Right?

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
30. But what bothers most ...
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:07 PM
Sep 2012

about this, when specifically talking about romney, is the "risking one's money by investing, so the risk should be rewarded with special tax treatment" argument is not applicable in the vast majority of bain deals. From what I've read, the vast majority of bain deals were structured in a way that bain took in investor money and used that to do the deal (using very little of bain's money ... and the money that bain did put in, was quickly returned through "management/administrative fees).

romney didn't risk any of his own money, so even if you accept that the return on risked money should receive preferential tax treatment, why should he be entitled to that preferential treatment.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
31. There is another side to capital gains - That is capital losses
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:13 PM
Sep 2012

Capital gains are a result of putting capital at risk, and having that risk pay off. People lose money in investments too, and the only recourse they have is to write their losses off against their own capital gains.

It's similar to gambling winnings and losses - Gambling winnings are taxed as ordinary income; gambling losses can be written off only to the extent they offset your own gambling winnings.

Winnings from hobbies are treated in a similar way - You have to pay taxes (as ordinary income) on money you make from a hobby, e.g. prize money for winning a car race or having your dressage horse come in first place in a competition. But you can write off hobby expenses only to the extent that they offset your hobby income.

As for the idea of taxing capital gains at a DIFFERENT, and LOWER rate than earned income, that's something that's always open for discussion. Reasonable arguments can be made in any direction you choose.

PETRUS

(3,678 posts)
33. Bain Capital does not pay corporate income taxes
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:07 AM
Sep 2012

Bain is structured as a partnership and is therefore not subject to these taxes. So the "double taxation" crybaby act just doesn't apply in this case. Rmoney is full of it.

I realize that's not really an answer to your question, but I thought I should point it out.

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