Northeastern dismisses 11 first-year students for partying. They won't get their $36,500 tuition bac

[demmiblue]

Northeastern University has dismissed 11 first-year students after they were caught violating social distancing rules, the school announced Friday, the latest and most aggressive attempt to prevent the pandemic from disrupting plans to return to Boston’s campuses this fall.

The students were caught at the Westin Hotel, which is being used as a temporary dormitory this semester, on Wednesday night without masks and not social distancing, according to university spokeswoman Renata Nyul.

The dismissed students will not be allowed to take courses from home this semester but will be permitted to return in the spring, Nyul said. They were part of a special one-semester program for freshmen that was prepaid and cost $36,500. That money will not be refunded.

The students were asked to move out immediately, be tested for COVID-19, enter quarantine if they test positive, and then leave. Their university housing payments will not be refunded, per university rules.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/04/metro/northeastern-dismisses-11-first-year-students-partying/

[AllaN01Bear]

1. good.

[Deuxcents]

4. Agreed

[LisaL]

2. Parents must be so proud, especially considering they likely paid the tuition.

You get your offspring back from school, minus the money.

[TheBlackAdder]

43. That's going to leave a mark--5 minutes after they get home and face their parents.

[former9thward]

3. If they paid their own money for tuition (or their parents money)

they will get it back. Or Northeastern will be sued and lose.

[Deuxcents]

7. Hmmm

Let em sue..they violated the rules. I hope they lose. Would be interested in the outcome

[former9thward]

9. You can't take money without providing services.

A basic legal concept. NEern will lose, and have to pay court costs plus attorney's fees. But it won't come to that. They will quietly get their money back after the initial publicity. NEern by this statement is trying to scare other students into compliance. That may or may not work. But the courts will not be scared by the school.

[Renew Deal]

20. They will lose more with a covid outbreak

And I'm not convinced they will lose. The students likely agreed to the terms.

[former9thward]

31. Agreed to what terms?

"If you violate any rule you are expelled with out due process and we keep all tuition money"? Do you really think someone agreed to that and signed it? Wow...

[Renew Deal]

39. Yes

Because people don’t take things seriously, don’t read, don’t care, etc. We wouldn’t have prisons if people followed the rules.

[Ms. Toad]

26. Umm, no.

They agreed to an entire set of conditions, not just the exchange of money for education. Breaching the agreement (by failing to comply with the rulse as significantly modified for COVID 19) excuses performance by the school.

[former9thward]

32. In court do you say Umm?

I don't but maybe others do. If you are excused of performance that does not mean you get to keep the money that was given for that performance. Go back to Contracts I.

[Ms. Toad]

34. In case you hadn't noticed, we're not in court.

I teach contracts, among other things.

The contract, from what I've been able to tell without seeing it, was a lump sum payment at the beginning of the semester for education as long as the student complies with the COVID 19 restrictions. This program was significantly redesigned in response to COVID 19, in order to provide a safe environment to permit in-person classes for the semester. It seems to have baked into the contract that the school's obligation to remain to continue to provide education this semester is conditioned on compliance with COVID 19 restrictions.

That is equivalent life care community contracts in which you sign over your life savings to us in exchange for care for the remainder of your live. If you kicked the bucket the next day, your estate does not get any money back because it made a deal that seems bad in retrospect. You got what you bargained for: Care, for as long as you life.

Here, the deal seems to have been you get education for as long as you comply with the COVID 19 restrictions. If it turns out to be a bad deal because you can't restrain your inclination to party unmasked, that doesn't mean you get to unwind the deal.

[former9thward]

50. As I said to another poster

People are adding terms to this supposed contract with every post. I'll bet they agreed to death by firing squad for any violation and in addition their parent's property will be bulldozed and salted so nothing grows there for a hundred years.

[fescuerescue]

68. Most legal experts hangout on DU

Also most infectious disease experts.

It's no suprise that we don't have a vaccine yet, since the vaccine experts spend all their time posting.

[Ms. Toad]

70. Feel free to do some research and draw your own conclusions.

But don't just base your analysis on OP, or your experience as a student. This program was a specific reponse to COVID 19, and the articles I've read (including one written by the school) indicate complying with safety precautions put in place was part of the deal.

[smirkymonkey]

55. +1000

Thank you! These students are not just endangering their own university community, they are endangering the city of Boston at large. I have been very worried about what would happen when students returned to this city in the fall and I know college students can be careless and indifferent to concerns about the virus, and therefore less inclined to observe pandemic protocol.

I think it's the reason we have not been called back to the office yet. Seeing what will happen once all the students are back will be a game changer if they don't practice pandemic social norms. We have a huge college/university population here and if they are careless, the entire city could be plunged back into the thick of another out of control Covid epidemic just when we were on the verge of getting it under control.

[Yavin4]

38. If, instead, these students cheated on an exam and got expelled.

They wouldn't get their tuition back.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

53. The school performed. They provided a safe place to get an education.

The school could have sold those spots to non ignoramus students. Now the school has empty slots they would not be reasonably able to fill. The school still has expenses based on the expected enrollment.

[George II]

58. They were provided services (briefly) under certain conditions. They violated those conditions.

[Voltaire2]

72. They signed a contract that stated these rules

explicitly.

[thucythucy]

8. It might depend on whether the students and or parents signed a contract

as part of the admissions process.

I would think any smart university counsel would be on top of this.

My understanding is that, in an era of campus shootings, colleges are inserting clauses about an institutional recourse to students who threaten the safety of others on campus.

Ignoring necessary precautions during a pandemic would seen to fall under that category, but perhaps not.

[former9thward]

11. The school does not have to provide services to someone violating the rules.

But that does not mean they get to keep the money. They will give it back after the initial publicity.

[thucythucy]

17. Again, it depends on the wording of whatever document was signed

by either parents and/or students.

If it is plainly stated that any monies will be forfeited as a result of a violation, then the suit would be more difficult to pursue.

There might be an argument that this suspension violates due process protection, in that there doesn't seem to have been any sort of hearing or any chance for the students to contest the alleged violation. But private institutions generally have more latitude in such instances than public schools and facilities.

The school also risks lawsuits if the students hadn't been suspended, since anyone coming in contact with them who comes down with the illness could allege that the school was negligent and failed to provide for the safety of other students and staff.

Whatever the outcome, this serves as a wakeup call to other students and staff, which no doubt was a factor in taking this action.

[former9thward]

33. I never signed a contract when I when to schools for my BS, MS or JD.

If someone was told to sign something without legal counsel a court will toss it in the garbage. Contracts are not one sided affairs. When they are, courts toss them. Let's see what they signed, if anything. This is a bluff by the school.

[Ms. Toad]

35. This is a program that was specially modified

in response to COVID 19. Times have changed.

[ProfessorGAC]

40. Disregarding Special Circumstances?

How convenient.
This program was designed as a COVID period alternative to distance learning.
You think it impossible that conditions included following COVID protocols? For a program designed specifically in response to COVID?
I sure don't!
If I had all the letters that could he after my name, I would have needed a bigger business card.
I never signed a contract either, but I did sign agreements involving academic fraud. Get caught plagiarizing, fudging data, theft of property, etc. expelled no refund. One could reasonably consider that agreement a contract, although it might not meet the legal specifics. So, maybe I did sign contracts!
Other than the MBA, all of it was 1985 or earlier. The MBA was 25 years ago.
So, such agreements have been used for a long time.

[former9thward]

45. Every post I see people keep adding terms to this "contract" that no one has seen.

Pretty soon I will read they agreed to the death penalty and so they are lucky they are just losing money. Let's see what was signed, if anything...

[ProfessorGAC]

59. You Do Understand Speculation, Right?

Apparently, not.

[former9thward]

67. Yes, I understand speculation on the internet becomes the Truth when repeated enough.

[thucythucy]

44. Perhaps not a "contract" as such

but a "code of conduct" which members of the university community are expected to read and follow.

Such codes often include language prohibiting plagiarism, sexual harassment, physical or verbal abuse or intimidation, etc.

Since Northeastern has a law school of its own (friend of mine got her JD a decade or so back) and is considered a prestigious institution, it would be a surprise if its administration went forward on this without consulting their own legal counsel.

If it's a "bluff" it's a pretty high stakes one. But only time will tell.

Edited to add: post 37 below provides a link to a case where a student was expelled ("dismissed&quot for violating the school's code of conduct, and the court ruled that student was not entitled to a tuition refund.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

56. Wait what? You have a JD and you are saying contracts signed without counsel are unenforceable?

Lol. No.

Tuition reimbursement indeed.

[dsc]

12. why would they be if they, and I am sure they did, sign rules they agreed to abide by

To take but one example. Religious universities have expelled gay students and refused refunds and have been upheld in that when the jurisdiction in question didn't have laws protecting LGBT citizens. Heck the army got back recruitment bonuses and were tuition they paid for gay students when they expelled them. I fail to see how this is any different.

[former9thward]

13. I would love to see a cite to those legal cases.

The school has every right, assuming due process, to expel students for violation of rules. They have no right to keep money for services not rendered.

P.S. I tried to look at the story but there is a sign in/paywall so I can't read it. I don't know if there was any due process here.

[dsc]

21. ask and you shall receive

Here is ROTC students having to pay back scholarship money from the government after being discharged for being gay.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2019/6/18/18679585/pride-rotc-gay-rights-military

Here is one with a student being thrown out for being gay and being made to pay $

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/06/13/student-expelled-being-gay-and-charged-6000-back-tuition-protests-online-petition

And here is one with a student thrown out and no mention of a refund being given

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/uwire/uwire_HYNC050420062147263.html?pagewanted=2

[former9thward]

47. Actually I didn't receive any actual cases.

1) the ROTC situation is totally irrelevant. The person had already received his education on the government's dime. He did not pay anything. He violated the rules of that scholarship so he had to pay for an education already received. But most importantly there was no legal case, so we don't know a court's opinion of all this.

2) The same situation with the Bible college. Scholarships, rule violation, education already received and most important, no court test.

3) From the third link: Johnson, who was planning to transfer from Cumberlands at the end of the year anyway, reached a settlement with the university that, while still forcing him to leave the university, allows him to receive credit for his classes and retain good transfer standing. He has enrolled at EKU and said he is not seeking legal action against the university.

It doesn't sound like he lost any money whatsoever and he got his education.

[BannonsLiver]

48. Can you cite where it says in the law that

“They’ll give it back after the publicity dies down.”

[former9thward]

51. Sure.

Ask any practicing lawyer to tell you what happens in the real world.

[BannonsLiver]

52. Righhhhhht

Sorry, not buying the credentials. Getting a Walter Mitty vibe.

[cwydro]

14. Northeastern, not Northwestern.

[former9thward]

15. Yes, I just noticed that.

I live in Chicago so I am used to Northwestern.

[cwydro]

16. I thought the same.

Not sure I've ever heard of Northeastern actually.

[thucythucy]

18. It's a fairly well regarded university in Boston.

[cwydro]

19. That's why I love DU; I learn something new everyday.

[Klaralven]

28. Northeastern is the second largest university in Boston, behind Boston University.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_metropolitan_Boston

[cwydro]

30. That area is certainly home to a lot of higher learning institutions.

Thanks.

Boston was on my road trip list for this fall, postponed for now unfortunately.

[Klaralven]

36. But note that the great majority of institutions are private.

Public higher learning in Massachusetts is comparatively weak. This seems odd for a state that is so liberal. UMass has 5 campuses, with the flagship campus in Amherst.

[cwydro]

41. I didn't think of that.

That does seem odd.

[Chainfire]

5. They learned an important life lesson

actions have consequences. Perhaps it was worth the $36,500.00, and will save money in the long run. The parents can also consider it a lesson on the failure to raise children with good judgement. The University can use the money to educate kids who follow the rules. It is a win for all.

[Igel]

29. Nah.

They'll declare themselves victims.

Somebody will point out that this behavior has already happened elsewhere at Northeastern without consequence, and happened afterwards elsewhere at Northeastern without consequence, and some alternative reason given for their perceived victimization.

[Sherman A1]

6. Good

[beachbumbob]

10. actions with out consequences never stops the actions

[lostnfound]

22. 17 and 18 year olds in a country with political leaders waffling about masks

Idiotic but not deserving of what essentially amounts to a $36,500 fine.

[demmiblue]

23. You do have a point.

Also, $36,500 for one semester of college is jaw-dropping.

[gulliver]

25. Agree

[Maru Kitteh]

42. Sorry, NO. They were given the rules UP FRONT about what is expected of them.

Infantilizing our young adults is part of what has earned us a society full of people who refuse to take responsibility for their own decisions and actions. 17year-olds are perfectly capable of reading a set of rules and then deciding whether or not they choose to comply. 17 year-olds are tried as adults when they murder. 17 year-olds fight in wars. 17-year olds start families, sometimes deliberately.

Actions.
Consequences.

Womp womp.

[BannonsLiver]

54. +1

That poster shows the lackadaisical approach Americans are once again taking with the virus and why we’re on the cusp of a third massive spike in cases since this started.

[MichMan]

64. I have heard the same argument by some people about student loans

They knew when they signed up for them as incoming freshmen that they were responsible for paying them back, right ?

[MichMan]

24. Would it be acceptable for someone to be fired from their job...

if they were seen not wearing a mask on public outside of work?

Does the university hold it's faculty and staff to the same standard?

[a la izquierda]

60. I don't know about Northeastern...

But I'm a professor at a large university and yes, we are held to the same standards. None of us are having huge parties indoors, because we're not irresponsible and don't want to put the entire community at risk. We're not having huge parties outdoors either, though the students certainly are. I get together with a couple of my friends to sit outside and drink wine. I (and the others) wear masks if we have to use the loo.
So yes. We are. And we can be subject to disciplinary action if we don't adhere to guidelines, including firing.

Our bars opened at reduced capacity on Monday. They were closed again after 2 nights because of students not behaving themselves. There are 3 pending suspensions and 3 new hearings that could lead to suspensions.

[MichMan]

62. I find it depressing to live in a society where a career can be ruined based on off the job behavior

A young single mother in an office, a Costco cashier, or a middle aged factory worker with 25 yrs on the job, fired because some co worker "Karen" reported them for talking to a neighbor after work without a mask on.

Henry Ford I was criticized for making the $5 per day wage dependent on adhering to strict rules regarding off the job behaviors he disapproved of such as drinking and gambling. Sad that there are some that would still support such scrutiny today.

[RobinA]

66. I Could Not

agree with you more. Every time I hear about one of these a chill just goes through me. There’s no sense of proportion. One bad post on Facebook and your life is ruined. Say the wrong thing in your backyard or the local park and it’s all over the news, zillions of total strangers are opining on what you did and your life as you knew it is over. Frightening.

[JonLP24]

71. I grew up when there was more anonymity on the internet

You have to be very careful what you say online under your real name. Though some have made a career of saying outrageous shit in public like Tomi Lauren and Ann Coulter.

[NYC Liberal]

61. They were at a dormitory.

[lettucebe]

27. That could be a good way to make bank? More schools will jump on this bandwagon

Collect tuition then easily oust students? It's brilliant!

[Buckeye_Democrat]

37. The behavior of the students was unconscionable to me.

The school? Not so much, if the non-reimbursement was clear in the contract.

Judges apparently agree in principle:
https://www.lcwlegal.com/news/school-does-not-need-to-refund-tuition-paid-by-family-whose-child-was-expelled-mid-year

School Does Not Need to Refund Tuition Paid by Family Whose Child Was Expelled Mid-Year

... The court disagreed and found instead that read together, the contract and the handbook make clear that a student’s violation of the Honor Code could result in dismissal from the School. There is no meaningful difference between the terms “expel” and “dismiss” as they apply here. Next, Radinger argued the School breached the contract by not educating Philippe for the full school year. But the court noted that Philippe was dismissed in accordance with the terms of the contract. He violated the Honor Code and the handbook provided adequate notice that such a violation could lead to dismissal. Once Philippe was dismissed, the School had no further obligation to board or educate him. Therefore, there was no breach.
Finally, Radinger argued that the School was unjustly enriched by keeping the full tuition amount when Philippe was not educated for the full school year. Again, the court disagreed. Unjust enrichment is based on contract principles implied in the law. It is not necessary to look to unjust enrichment when there is a valid, legally enforceable contract covering the subject of payment. There was no issue for a jury on the topic of unjust enrichment. Summary judgment for the School was affirmed on all counts.

[Progressive Jones]

49. There will be at least one Dad kicking somebody's ass very soon. NT

[helpisontheway]

57. My son graduated from a small (5,000 students) university in May

The college he graduated from has a strict Covid plan. If they break any of the rules they are sent home. However, they are allowed to take classes online from home. Some of the parents are furious. However, like the school leaders said..they can’t allow those that don’t follow the rules to risk the health of those that do follow the rules. The students seemed determined to stay. They are following the rules. So far there are four active positive students and one faculty member. Two have recovered. Hope they are able to keep numbers low..

[MichMan]

63. Northeastern refused to allow them to take on line classes.

Essentially a $36k fine for breaking the rules. Seems draconian

[Hassin Bin Sober]

65. You mean take, at home, the classes specifically set up for them for in-person learning?

[MichMan]

69. Yes, just like every other college in the country with remote learning options

[xmas74]

73. My daughter's university requires you sign an agreement

That you are financially responsible for the semester, even if you are removed through suspension or expulsion. There are few exceptions, mostly for illness and death in the family,and they are decided through an appeal process.

With the large swath of budget cuts to higher ed I just figured this was the norm and not the exception.