Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

jsr

(7,712 posts)
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 02:14 PM Sep 2012

"Staple a Green Card" to Every Diploma? Not So Fast

http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sciencecareers/2011/10/the-issue-of-hi.html

"Staple a Green Card" to Every Diploma? Not So Fast, House Hearing Says.

...The idea of "stapling a green card" to the diploma of every foreign science and engineering graduate has gotten a lot of influential support lately. This hearing, however, highlighted a number of weaknesses with such a policy.

A "major concern," according to Barmak Nassirian, Associate Executive Director of the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers, is "the likely manner in which such policy changes could affect the quality and integrity of educational credentials." He cited "the unintended ways in which individuals may seek to manipulate the new policy to their advantage, the threat posed by unscrupulous providers of credentials, and the manner in which even legitimate institutions may be induced to take advantage of the new immigration incentives." ...

The United States already has an large domestic supply of STEM talent, testified B. Lindsay Lowell, Director of Policy Studies at Georgetown University's Institute for the Study of Immigration. Increasing the supply of potential STEM workers by admitting large numbers of foreigners results in lower wages and discourages able Americans from pursuing STEM careers, he continued. "The domestic student pipeline isn't broken," he said in prepared testimony. "While there are specific fields in which we observe hiring (demand) outpacing supply, this tends to be short-lived and as supply is surprisingly responsive." He cited as an example the rapid recent doubling in the number of domestic graduates in petroleum engineering in response to a jump in salaries. The domestic STEM pipeline "is reasonably strong even if it can...be improved."

Furthermore, "the S&E [science and engineering] labor market is not 'tight'....S&E wages lag 'alternative' professional jobs" that also attract able young Americans, such as law, medicine and finance, his testimony continued. In addition, admitting large numbers of foreigners does not guarantee getting the so-called "best and brightest" because real innovative talent is rare.



31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
"Staple a Green Card" to Every Diploma? Not So Fast (Original Post) jsr Sep 2012 OP
Lawmakers eye visas for highly skilled foreign-born graduates antigop Sep 2012 #1
Hillary supported an increase in h1-b visas antigop Sep 2012 #2
The Senator from Tata. Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #8
Her husband signed NAFTA, MFN China, and is beloved by all. This is simply the other side of Romulox Sep 2012 #12
And the people who point this out are called "haters" and "saboteurs". n/t antigop Sep 2012 #14
"real innovative talent is rare.." BINGO! n/t antigop Sep 2012 #3
Well there's your problem right there. JoeyT Sep 2012 #4
yep, Joeyt, exactly right. It's all about lower wages and benefits. Race to the bottom. n/t antigop Sep 2012 #5
We allow cars, e.g., to move freely across borders. Why not the engineers who design them? Romulox Sep 2012 #6
No, we don't allow cars to move freely across borders. And why doing so with the engineers is still Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #9
Of course we do: NAFTA, Free Trade agreement with Korea, and coming soon, TPP... Romulox Sep 2012 #11
Ask 'em to try being an American, getting a job in Mexico. LOL. Zalatix Sep 2012 #15
+1 JoeyT Sep 2012 #18
Exactly. It's supposed to be poor form to even MENTION the wholesale outsourcing of manufacturing. Romulox Sep 2012 #22
Disappointing that you don't have an answer here, beyond "some of us are more equal than others..." Romulox Sep 2012 #21
I don't actually live on DU, so don't despair, I'm just not available sometimes. Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #23
President Obama signed Free Trade with Korea, and is negotiating the Trans Pacific Partnership. Romulox Sep 2012 #27
Which demonstrates exactly that political parties are not people (unless of course you're going to Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #29
And leading off with an Argument Ad Hominem about how I don't stick to the subject of the thread? Romulox Sep 2012 #28
ad hominem: attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument. Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #30
OK. But, why just science and engineering. This country could use more artists, teachers, doctors, Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2012 #7
we have plenty of artists, teachers, musicians, historians, science & engineering grads. we could HiPointDem Sep 2012 #10
If they have green cards and unionize. Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2012 #16
just another union=busting, wage-busting scheme. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #17
So, the unions should get them to join the unions. Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2012 #20
Just like that. What world do you live in? That position reminds me an old Monty Python routine. n/t Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #24
So, what's wrong with joining unions? Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2012 #25
Nothing at all. What is wrong is the idea that unions can just "get them to join". The whole of Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #26
Artists, teachers, musicians, historians typically do not make as much as scientists and engineers. antigop Sep 2012 #13
kick n/t antigop Sep 2012 #19
I agree Nikia Sep 2012 #31

antigop

(12,778 posts)
1. Lawmakers eye visas for highly skilled foreign-born graduates
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 02:22 PM
Sep 2012
http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/09/19/4273313/lawmakers-eye-visas-for-highly.html

The United States can no longer afford to train foreign scientists and engineers and then send them back home to work for the nation's competitors, say lawmakers who are expected to vote today....

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
8. The Senator from Tata.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:01 PM
Sep 2012

Her husband did most of the heavy lifting in wiping out a generation of IT professionals, then she continued and accelerated that legacy. And some people wonder what happened to the American Middle Class.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
12. Her husband signed NAFTA, MFN China, and is beloved by all. This is simply the other side of
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:57 PM
Sep 2012

the cheap-labor coin.

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
4. Well there's your problem right there.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 02:37 PM
Sep 2012

"He cited as an example the rapid recent doubling in the number of domestic graduates in petroleum engineering in response to a jump in salaries."

See, that jump in salaries is what's pissing them off. That's what they want gone. The Free Market is the greatest thing in the world, until workers actually want to be paid what they're worth.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
9. No, we don't allow cars to move freely across borders. And why doing so with the engineers is still
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:06 PM
Sep 2012

a bad idea is self-evident in wages, benefits, & employment security for well over a decade now. The only entities the "free trade" agreements benefit are the mega-corporations that wrote them.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
11. Of course we do: NAFTA, Free Trade agreement with Korea, and coming soon, TPP...
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:54 PM
Sep 2012
And why doing so with the engineers is still a bad idea is self-evident in wages, benefits, & employment security for well over a decade now.


It's not "self-evident" to me why engineering jobs should be protected, but other jobs should not. Once you subscribe to the logic of neo-liberal economics, protecting domestic jobs of any kind is "protectionist" and "rent seeking".

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
18. +1
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 05:32 PM
Sep 2012

And you won't hear it said often, but the IT and engineering sectors were filled with people that were thrilled when it was blue collar jobs being shipped out and union busting all around.

I've never seen a higher concentration of libertarian laissez faire assholes than when I worked in IT 12 years ago. And I've never seen such a wailing and gnashing of teeth as when the IT sector glibertarians found out they weren't the irreplaceable Galtian supermen they thought they were.

I don't support their jobs being shipped out just like I don't support anyone's job being outsourced. I just wish they'd return the favor of opposing trade agreements that don't directly hurt them.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
22. Exactly. It's supposed to be poor form to even MENTION the wholesale outsourcing of manufacturing.
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 10:55 AM
Sep 2012
I don't support their jobs being shipped out just like I don't support anyone's job being outsourced. I just wish they'd return the favor of opposing trade agreements that don't directly hurt them.


Our support isn't controlling here; study after study shows that the engineering jobs follow the manufacturing jobs, to the plant floor. When that's in China...
 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
23. I don't actually live on DU, so don't despair, I'm just not available sometimes.
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 04:21 PM
Sep 2012

You have an interesting debate technique; If a point is raised you don't like, you simply address some other issue more to your liking. Unfortunately that technique only works on republicans and media personalities.

To address the issue we are engaged in; Only some cars are allowed to move across some borders and the results of that defective policy are disaster for the people on both sides of those borders, just as foretold by that bastion of liberalism ( included to avoid more obtuse distraction) H. Ross Perot way back in the early 90's.

Each and every one of the existing "free trade" agreements, and there is no reason expect any different results from the pending agreements mentioned, have benefited only the corporations that wrote them. One of government's primary duties is to protect its citizens, yet you somehow seem to have concluded that that is not within its purview. You are the only one trying to assert that engineers should be protected separately from others, the rest of us know that all workers need to be protected from the arbitrage policies pursued by our corporate owned government. Engineers are just the profession currently at hand.

There is no systemic shortage of skilled, educated American workers, period. At most there are temporary deficits that are quickly eliminated as salaries in those fields rise, just as they should.

So that leaves this question; Why do you argue in favor of further hurting millions of your fellow citizens in order to benefit the republican party's primary backers?

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
27. President Obama signed Free Trade with Korea, and is negotiating the Trans Pacific Partnership.
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 05:31 PM
Sep 2012

President Clinton signed the North American Free Trade Agreement and permanent Most Favored Nation status to China.

So, no, I see no evidence that "the rest of us know that all workers need to be protected"--free trade is the official policy of the Democratic Party.

You are the only one trying to assert that engineers should be protected separately from others, the rest of us know that all workers need to be protected from the arbitrage policies pursued by our corporate owned government. Engineers are just the profession currently at hand.


On the contrary; I don't think engineers deserve any special protection. I don't advocate for devil-take-the-hindmost economics, but also don't believe that any of us are more equal (or deserving of protection) than any other.

EDIT. Perfect analogy: It's like the draft. I don't support it, but I also don't think the rich should get any special exemptions. If we're going to have a draft, then EVERYONE needs to be subject to it. Otherwise, we get what we have in the US labor policy--demands that SOME workers "compete!" in the world economy, concurrent with demands that other more favored groups be protected from competition.
 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
29. Which demonstrates exactly that political parties are not people (unless of course you're going to
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 07:11 PM
Sep 2012

subscribe to the Rmoney theory that "corporations are people, my friend&quot . It is a bad idea, as well as bad policy and it doesn't matter whether it is a Democrat or a republican that pushes it. It has consistently failed to deliver progress to any of the players except the corporations and their dupes that push it.

Your argument is that Democrats did it too, so it must be good. Facts on the ground show the bankruptcy of that notion.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
28. And leading off with an Argument Ad Hominem about how I don't stick to the subject of the thread?
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 05:32 PM
Sep 2012

Ironic, at best!

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
30. ad hominem: attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 07:14 PM
Sep 2012

Try re-reading what was written, rather than what you wish was written.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
7. OK. But, why just science and engineering. This country could use more artists, teachers, doctors,
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 02:49 PM
Sep 2012

musicians, historians, etc.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
10. we have plenty of artists, teachers, musicians, historians, science & engineering grads. we could
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:45 PM
Sep 2012

have more docs as well (the supply is artificially limited).

we don't want to pay them. we won't want to pay immigrants either.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
26. Nothing at all. What is wrong is the idea that unions can just "get them to join". The whole of
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 04:55 PM
Sep 2012

U.S. labor law is heavily skewed against the formation, growth, and power of unions. I still keep my membership in the USW just to support them as I can, but the reality is that every step is an uphill battle for the unions, doubly so for those operating in so-called right-to-work and employment at will states.

antigop

(12,778 posts)
13. Artists, teachers, musicians, historians typically do not make as much as scientists and engineers.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 04:14 PM
Sep 2012

It's all about lowering wages and benefits.

Nikia

(11,411 posts)
31. I agree
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 08:30 PM
Sep 2012

Despite popular belief, science does not pay that well. Most entry level jobs requiring a BS in a science that I have seen on job boards pay under $15.00/hour. Engineering pays more, but you still have engineers transferring out of that field to go into sales and finance in order to make more money.
Americans want to go into career fields that pay. If wages are high and unemployment is low in a field, more Americans will go into that field.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»"Staple a Green Card...