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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy are Democrats so resistant to liability protection as part of the next COVID bill?
On the one hand, Im a very firm supporter of the peoples right to sue, especially big corporations. Im a firm supporter of contingency payment and class action lawsuits. Im sorry for Europeans who have no recourse when large companies rip them off or physicians engage in malpractice (although it may be that Europeans have other recourse that I dont know about.)
On the other hand, Ive seen enough anecdotal evidence first hand of attorneys dragging things out to inflate their income, from the trivial of chatting over coffee and donuts before getting down to business to the tune of $200/hour to the very real instance where a lawsuit we engaged in with our condo board (driven by their attorney, for sure) was awarded a win to us as a summary judgement. In other words, there were no grounds for the defendents position. (A little more detail on that at the bottom of this post, if youre interested.)
I don't know how to protect the one while putting breaks on the other.... Except maybe in the isolated intance of COVID.
Now, in this time of rapidly evolving science, of the degradation of normal sources of authority like the CDC, I can see thousands of lawsuits brought because some attorney thought Hey! No one knows whats right. This could last for years!! Already 3000 COVID lawsuits have been brought. I can see merit in a law that protects hospitals and businesses from further economic hardship because they werent forsightful enough to figure out just the right thing to do. Or the DID do the right thing and someone and their lawyer see a chance to make a quick buck.
And, if the behavior was egregious, isnt the better recourse to the established system? If there is a law against some behavior (like, say, requiring workers with pre-existing conditions to work in dangerous conditions), you dont have to sue, right? You complain to the authorities, and they do what they do. Bring charges, or work it out. I just listened to the Massachusetts attorney general urging people to call their hotlines and they will get involved with employer/employee COVID disputes and, if necessary, bring charges.
Donald Trump knows that if you can prolong the legal arguments long enough, few people can afford to fight you.
So, again, why are Democrats so resistant to liability protection as part of the next COVID bill?
TIA
LAS
My experience with frivolous legal behavior.
My experience with an attorney racking up hours had to do with the definition of a curtain wall. No need to get into the details, but the facts were clear. Fortunately, one of the three of us unit owners who brought the suit was a retired attorney. Because she was retired, we other two had to hire our own attorney, but she was willing to let the other plaintiff do almost all of the work. If that had not been the case there would have been no way for us to afford the many hours of legal work that the condo attorney created by submitting ridiculous questions and engaging in other clear delaying tactics. It was clear that their strategy was to wait us out.
(One vivid bit of evidence of how our attorney helped us keep costs down was that she let us be the ones to spend an afternoon at the courthouse and photo-copy documents instead of sending a paralegal.)
The summary judgement that was rendered is confirmation that Im not just making things up.
live love laugh
(13,118 posts)They dont get to be derelict and walk away without consequence.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... the GOP that's in danger of getting sued. Do you?
tia
las
live love laugh
(13,118 posts)as shareholders will be sued.
Yavin4
(35,441 posts)Trump is the king of "Frivolous lawsuits". Once again, Republicans reserve the right to abuse the courts.
SharonAnn
(13,776 posts)Worry about those who are sickened and/or die as a result of business malfeasance, especially when businesses would have no skin in the game. Theyd be free to kill their employees, and they would.
5X
(3,972 posts)Those businesses can't be trusted to do the right thing.
Me.
(35,454 posts)People being forceed to work under extreme conditions may need the threat of liability to help protect them
LAS14
(13,783 posts)Me.
(35,454 posts)Barr would be an outstanding example
Me.
(35,454 posts)Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)for people when you know that Trump and the pugs would happily kill all of us. My son works in an auto plant. I don't want his health dependent upon the corporation he works for or the AG in the red state he works in.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)RainCaster
(10,882 posts)How many employers will cut corners because they have a "get out of jail" ticket from the GOP?
5X
(3,972 posts)iemitsu
(3,888 posts)There are many covid deaths being recorded as pneumonia and others things to keep the true numbers down.
5X
(3,972 posts)iemitsu
(3,888 posts)5X
(3,972 posts)the employer may claim covid to be covered by liability laws.
I misread your post.
Phoenix61
(17,006 posts)court. The courts that Twitler has been stacking with Federalists.
iemitsu
(3,888 posts)But they are not ready to safely have students and teachers in the spaces they own.
They, and any other businesses or organization that are considering opening now, should absolutely be subject to lawsuits. They know better.
onecaliberal
(32,862 posts)To this day our supervisor has not told a single person in our office that weve been exposed. He conducted yearly evaluations with each person in our office KNOWING he was exposed.
My husband is immunocompromised and another in my office has a brand new baby. This negligence pure and simple. No way people need to be protected from liability.
iemitsu
(3,888 posts)A pandemic does not absolve one (or the businesses they represent) of personal responsibility.
Doremus
(7,261 posts)We have scant few left. I'd like to hang on to them.
There are shitty attorneys just as there are shitty people in all professions. What's that saying they use to justify corporate health care ... "the free market will take care of itself," meaning once enough people get fleeced by any given attorney, they'll soon find themselves without clients. Seems apt in this instance.
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)hlthe2b
(102,286 posts)from the start. He's not allowed them to even become involved. As a result his own failures along with the accompanying negligence of some hospitals and other employers of HCWs, EMTs, nursing home workers whose level of culpability in the deaths of their staff have left them and their survivors unable to even file for workman's compensation or even collect on death benefits. I have scores of HCW and physician colleagues who have contracted and in some cases died from COVID-19 while working under horrendous conditions with "disposable"PPE falling apart from repeated and unsafe reuse. My sister has been ill since May 4, not able to collect workman's comp nor extended disability and getting paid only because she had stored up months of sick and vacation time, which is almost used up. She's among 7 ER nurses who have contracted COVID-19 in the same ER and it is suspected that a poorly ventilated/rapidly constructed triage area may be to blame. Without OSHA, there's no one to investigate.
Not to mention all the millions of workers outside the health care and first responder fields, whose employers ignored even basic steps to protect them.
You think liability protection is merely tamping down on excessive, frivolous, or exploitative lawsuits during a time of a national crisis.
NO! What the R's want is NO accountability whatsoever, protecting even the most negligent who hold power or authority. They are content to let the workers absorb all the risks and horrific outcomes with the means to fight back-- with no recourse. Not even a Federal investigative agency to prevent others from suffering the same harm.
THAT is what is at stake when you take the R's side in defending including absolute protection against liability.
Mike 03
(16,616 posts)sued are free to take extraordinary risks with other people's lives and to profit by unethical conduct with zero consequences.
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)A very large hospital in the Houston Medical Center (the largest and arguably the best care in the world) was requiring the staff to sign releases in exchange for a small bonus. The reason, because the staff was at the beginning of dealing with the pandemic and the hospital, despite knowing we would eventually have a pandemic, failed to prepare for it because money. It always comes down to that. They did not have the PPE, training, or all of the equipment they would need to properly deal with what was coming because it cost money to be prepared.
The staff would be unnecessarily exposed to this potentially deadly virus due to their failure to prepare in order to return more profit to their shareholders. Do the hospital administrators get a pass and have the staff pay for their negligence and greed? What is their incentive to have the protection in the future if they cannot be penalized for their bad actions?
I handle refinery and chemical plant explosions. In Texas they put caps on damages that for an oil company are a drop in a bucket. If they can take a shortcut that could save them 48 million dollars if all goes well, they will. When it goes wrong and they pay out a $1-2 million settlement for the death of a worker and a $100,000 fine for the environmental, do you think the next time they need to do that job/maintenance again they will take the shortcut? Yes they will EVERY TIME!!! If a jury could hit them with a hundred million in punitive damages they would follow the rules.
If the hospital can throw a small bump in pay to the staff instead of stocking up and preparing for the inevitable pandemic for next time what do you think they will do. If they have immunity they do not even have to offer a bonus, it will be show up or be fired!
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... in Texas then vote, vote, vote.
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)have nothing to worry about.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... in this time of uncertainty about best practice and loss of trust in authorities. It's a real problem, and hospitals, doctors and small businesses could be badly hurt.
I get the replies that give examples of bad practice. I'm sorry not more people are aware of the lawsuit industry.
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)As a trial attorney I have to take cases that I think can win with a jury. Some cases are not as clear but have some value based upon the risk a jury will rule for the plaintiff. The settlement may not cover all of my clients damages because of liability issues that could go either way.
Cases without merit I do not take, ever! The frivolous lawsuit is almost all myth. Certainly there has never been a real issue with a glut of frivolous lawsuits. The reason, trial lawyers operate on a contingency fee. We do not get paid unless we recover money for our client. We put our own money into the case expenses and only get that back out of the recovery. No recovery no money, period. We also lose the time we spent on the case. It is hard enough to get paid on good cases, why would I take something that is not a case at all?
Sometimes a trial lawyer will screw up in screening a case, or fall for a client who is lying about what happened. They will either drop the client or the judge will dismiss the case on Summary Judgement. The judges will do this!
The myth of widespread frivolous lawsuits came from astro-turf organizations sponsored by the insurance industry, U.S. Chamber of Commerce and their Institute for Legal Reform, and groups like the Koch Brothers. They convinced many Americans that our courthouses were clogged with these frivolous cases and juries were going crazy with awards. These groups, along with their media henchmen used the McDonalds coffee case as their poster child, never mind that what they portrayed was not what happened. But hey, Mickey Ds was a huge advertiser that needed their help. Juries, judges and insurance companies are not idiots, you should not have to worry about frivolous suits.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... in a summary judgement for me. It's not a myth when Donald Trump frightens off legitimate complaints with the threat of lawsuits. Have you heard about Trump? He's not alone.
I wish I had a link to the episode where some talking head described having to defend against a lawsuit because of reporting that they did. It was riviting, but not riviting enough for me to recall the person/organization in question. The victim of the lawsuit was, fotunately, a big enough organization to wait it out financially. This was a liberal media report... Not a right wing "let's get rid of lawsuits" rant.
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)Fortunately, the Donald Trump types are rare and can be labeled a vexatious litigant for repeated filing of frivolous lawsuits. We have an attorney locally who is not allowed to file his own lawsuits anymore because he received that label (he is also a Trump supporter).
I hope your experience doesnt get you to view all cases as frivolous. Small business owners generally make terrible jurors for plaintiffs for this reason. Without the right to redress for harm caused things would be a lot less safe and many more people would get ripped off. No system is perfect, I can attest to that for sure, but it is the best system out there and many of us work hard to make it better.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... paragraph of my OP. You're making a case for the system working. So was I. In this era of tremendous lack of clarity, I want people to depend on laws, not civil suits.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... of our legal fight I kept thinking about how absolutely helpless a person is if they end up in a legal fight and don't have a lot of money. We don't have a lot of money, but we had an attorney as a co-plaintiff. For sure not everyone is so lucky.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)Here's a possible path forward for protecting people from frivolous lawsuits. In negotiations after the judgement were given attorney's fees. We were told not to expect that, but just a couple of months before the decision, Massachusetts passed a law targeted to frivolous lawsuits, and our attorneys speculated that the defendent attorney's firm was afraid of reprisals under that law.
Anyway. It's a problem that I think needs attention.
NCjack
(10,279 posts)with no or shoddy workplace protection against becoming infected. As workers get sick and die, they can be discarded with no compensation to families and new victim workers hired to replace.
mackdaddy
(1,527 posts)It will encourage bad behavior by those who already have more money and power. And take away the rights of others to leagely redress complaints. It is over riding what the courts are there to do.
LAS14
(13,783 posts).... small businesses who will, for sure, get caught up on long legal wrangles that benefit the lawyers and cost them time and money when nothing may have happened. At this point there is no clarity about what is culpable unless a government body has passed legislation.
Don't you believe that this can happen???
tia
las
hlthe2b
(102,286 posts)Good heavens.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... small business owners who may have been hurt by bad COVID practices. But I don't see any attempt to address the problem they may faced when being sued in this uncertain environment, even though they may ultimately be vindicated.
hlthe2b
(102,286 posts)my friends and colleagues (and maybe me as well). Rewarding Trump for decimating any protections remaining for other workers. Even coal miners in the coalfields of WY and WV have more protections. Had class action lawsuits been denied them, they would have NOTHING--including no treatment nor compensation for black lung disease.
Yet THIS is what you are content to argue for--the reward you wish to offer me and my colleagues who are trying to look out for everyone. Not to mention the "essential, though clearly expendable" grocery worker and others. That IS what you are arguing on behalf of. I am sickened.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I think I know... no need to rationalize it as something other than what it is.
But sure... go ahead and pretend no one is concerned.
Or is this simply another "when I say them I mean me! my posts speak for me alone!" dance routines?
LAS14
(13,783 posts)I realize that many replies show concern for people hurt by COVID. I don't recall seeing replies showing concern for people hurt by groundless lawsuits. And there will be many, guaranteed.