Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 04:56 PM Jul 2020

Why are Democrats so resistant to liability protection as part of the next COVID bill?

On the one hand, I’m a very firm supporter of the people’s right to sue, especially big corporations. I’m a firm supporter of contingency payment and class action lawsuits. I’m sorry for Europeans who have no recourse when large companies rip them off or physicians engage in malpractice (although it may be that Europeans have other recourse that I don’t know about.)

On the other hand, I’ve seen enough anecdotal evidence first hand of attorneys dragging things out to inflate their income, from the trivial of chatting over coffee and donuts before getting down to business to the tune of $200/hour to the very real instance where a lawsuit we engaged in with our condo board (driven by their attorney, for sure) was awarded a win to us as a “summary judgement.” In other words, there were no grounds for the defendents’ position. (A little more detail on that at the bottom of this post, if you’re interested.)

I don't know how to protect the one while putting breaks on the other.... Except maybe in the isolated intance of COVID.

Now, in this time of rapidly evolving science, of the degradation of normal sources of authority like the CDC, I can see thousands of lawsuits brought because some attorney thought “Hey! No one knows what’s right. This could last for years!!” Already 3000 COVID lawsuits have been brought. I can see merit in a law that protects hospitals and businesses from further economic hardship because they weren’t forsightful enough to figure out just the right thing to do. Or the DID do the right thing and someone and their lawyer see a chance to make a quick buck.

And, if the behavior was egregious, isn’t the better recourse to the established system? If there is a law against some behavior (like, say, requiring workers with pre-existing conditions to work in dangerous conditions), you don’t have to sue, right? You complain to the authorities, and they do what they do. Bring charges, or work it out. I just listened to the Massachusetts attorney general urging people to call their hotlines and they will get involved with employer/employee COVID disputes and, if necessary, bring charges.

Donald Trump knows that if you can prolong the legal arguments long enough, few people can afford to fight you.

So, again, why are Democrats so resistant to liability protection as part of the next COVID bill?



TIA
LAS

My experience with frivolous legal behavior.

My experience with an attorney racking up hours had to do with the definition of a curtain wall. No need to get into the details, but the facts were clear. Fortunately, one of the three of us unit owners who brought the suit was a retired attorney. Because she was retired, we other two had to hire our own attorney, but she was willing to let the other plaintiff do almost all of the work. If that had not been the case there would have been no way for us to afford the many hours of legal work that the condo attorney created by submitting ridiculous questions and engaging in other clear delaying tactics. It was clear that their strategy was to wait us out.
(One vivid bit of evidence of how our attorney helped us keep costs down was that she let us be the ones to spend an afternoon at the courthouse and photo-copy documents instead of sending a paralegal.)
The summary judgement that was rendered is confirmation that I’m not just making things up.

46 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why are Democrats so resistant to liability protection as part of the next COVID bill? (Original Post) LAS14 Jul 2020 OP
"Frivolous lawsuits" was Bush's mantra and now the Republicans. live love laugh Jul 2020 #1
Not really an answer to my OP. I don't think it's... LAS14 Jul 2020 #5
I wasn't looking to answer your OP. And yes indirectly they live love laugh Jul 2020 #30
"Frivolous lawsuits"? Like Trump's "Frivolous lawsuits" ? Yavin4 Jul 2020 #24
This the kind of situation where "Reinsurance" would apply. SharonAnn Jul 2020 #44
Think of the pork processing and chicken plants. 5X Jul 2020 #2
THat's What I'm Thinking Me. Jul 2020 #3
Why can't they go to the attorney general? Or other such officials? nt LAS14 Jul 2020 #7
Because They Don't Always Protect People Me. Jul 2020 #9
Here's A Good Example Of Why People Need Protection Me. Jul 2020 #18
They are mostly Republicans in those states...why would you wish to limit protection Demsrule86 Jul 2020 #27
In red states? That seems like a waste of time today. nt Blue_true Jul 2020 #35
Exactly what I was thinking RainCaster Jul 2020 #6
Suddenly, every death or illness is blamed on Covid-19. n/t 5X Jul 2020 #8
The deaths caused by covid should be attributed to it. iemitsu Jul 2020 #12
If they pass a bill that protects employers from liability for covid, things will change. 5X Jul 2020 #15
How? Then bosses will just feel more free to not protect the workers they employ. iemitsu Jul 2020 #19
I mean if the worker gets sick and dies from any cause, toxic chemicals say, 5X Jul 2020 #23
Oh, sorry. iemitsu Jul 2020 #34
The "protection" is moving the suits to federal Phoenix61 Jul 2020 #4
Schools have had months to come up with safe plans to reopen. iemitsu Jul 2020 #10
My bosses daughter was infected, he was exposed and came to work exposing us. onecaliberal Jul 2020 #11
I completely agree with you. iemitsu Jul 2020 #14
Because it's just another giveaway of people's rights. Doremus Jul 2020 #13
Companies will kill people with impunity with such protection. Demsrule86 Jul 2020 #16
Trump deactivated/destroyed any ability of OSHA to react to COVID and to try to protect workers hlthe2b Jul 2020 #17
Companies, institutions and individuals with power who are immune from being Mike 03 Jul 2020 #20
I will give you some examples. Dustlawyer Jul 2020 #21
They can be penalized for their bad actions, at least in Massachusetts. If not.. LAS14 Jul 2020 #22
A big NO NO to reduced liability for business...if they are careful and enact good policy, they Demsrule86 Jul 2020 #28
No, that's my point. There is really a great threat of frivolous lawsuits... LAS14 Jul 2020 #29
Law suit industry? Great threat of frivolous lawsuits? Dustlawyer Jul 2020 #40
It wasn't a myth for the two years I paid out money fighting a battle that ended.. LAS14 Jul 2020 #41
I understand your anger and frustration. I did not say they never happen. Dustlawyer Jul 2020 #42
I certainly don't view all cases as frivolous. Please re-visit the first... LAS14 Jul 2020 #43
Anyway, thanks for your sympathy. All through the two years... LAS14 Jul 2020 #45
One more observation about the legal system. LAS14 Jul 2020 #46
CEOs will hide behind liability laws for protection and provide workers NCjack Jul 2020 #25
It is not "liability protection". It is shifting all liability onto the workers, and others. mackdaddy Jul 2020 #26
Why is no one concerned about the good hospitals, doctors.... LAS14 Jul 2020 #31
Obviously YOU did not read my post (17) nor many others on your thead.. hlthe2b Jul 2020 #32
I re-read it and I see that you are concerned about hospitals, physicians and.. LAS14 Jul 2020 #36
You are proposing taking the last possible means of redress away while rewarding those killing hlthe2b Jul 2020 #39
Why are you ignoring so may responses addressing exactly that? LanternWaste Jul 2020 #33
Would you point to one or two responses that do that? #17 (see post above) didn't. LAS14 Jul 2020 #37
Cause the current systems work just fine? Why are you asking seeing the answer is obvious? tia uponit7771 Jul 2020 #38

live love laugh

(13,118 posts)
1. "Frivolous lawsuits" was Bush's mantra and now the Republicans.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 04:58 PM
Jul 2020

They don’t get to be derelict and walk away without consequence.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
5. Not really an answer to my OP. I don't think it's...
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:07 PM
Jul 2020

... the GOP that's in danger of getting sued. Do you?

tia
las

Yavin4

(35,441 posts)
24. "Frivolous lawsuits"? Like Trump's "Frivolous lawsuits" ?
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:57 PM
Jul 2020

Trump is the king of "Frivolous lawsuits". Once again, Republicans reserve the right to abuse the courts.

SharonAnn

(13,776 posts)
44. This the kind of situation where "Reinsurance" would apply.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 09:03 PM
Jul 2020

Worry about those who are sickened and/or die as a result of business malfeasance, especially when businesses would have no skin in the game. They’d be free to kill their employees, and they would.

5X

(3,972 posts)
2. Think of the pork processing and chicken plants.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:03 PM
Jul 2020

Those businesses can't be trusted to do the right thing.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
3. THat's What I'm Thinking
Reply to 5X (Reply #2)
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:06 PM
Jul 2020

People being forceed to work under extreme conditions may need the threat of liability to help protect them

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
27. They are mostly Republicans in those states...why would you wish to limit protection
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 06:02 PM
Jul 2020

for people when you know that Trump and the pugs would happily kill all of us. My son works in an auto plant. I don't want his health dependent upon the corporation he works for or the AG in the red state he works in.

RainCaster

(10,882 posts)
6. Exactly what I was thinking
Reply to 5X (Reply #2)
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:07 PM
Jul 2020

How many employers will cut corners because they have a "get out of jail" ticket from the GOP?

iemitsu

(3,888 posts)
12. The deaths caused by covid should be attributed to it.
Reply to 5X (Reply #8)
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:11 PM
Jul 2020

There are many covid deaths being recorded as pneumonia and others things to keep the true numbers down.

5X

(3,972 posts)
23. I mean if the worker gets sick and dies from any cause, toxic chemicals say,
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:55 PM
Jul 2020

the employer may claim covid to be covered by liability laws.

Phoenix61

(17,006 posts)
4. The "protection" is moving the suits to federal
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:07 PM
Jul 2020

court. The courts that Twitler has been stacking with Federalists.

iemitsu

(3,888 posts)
10. Schools have had months to come up with safe plans to reopen.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:09 PM
Jul 2020

But they are not ready to safely have students and teachers in the spaces they own.
They, and any other businesses or organization that are considering opening now, should absolutely be subject to lawsuits. They know better.

onecaliberal

(32,862 posts)
11. My bosses daughter was infected, he was exposed and came to work exposing us.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:11 PM
Jul 2020

To this day our supervisor has not told a single person in our office that we’ve been exposed. He conducted yearly evaluations with each person in our office KNOWING he was exposed.
My husband is immunocompromised and another in my office has a brand new baby. This negligence pure and simple. No way people need to be protected from liability.

iemitsu

(3,888 posts)
14. I completely agree with you.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:13 PM
Jul 2020

A pandemic does not absolve one (or the businesses they represent) of personal responsibility.

Doremus

(7,261 posts)
13. Because it's just another giveaway of people's rights.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:12 PM
Jul 2020

We have scant few left. I'd like to hang on to them.


There are shitty attorneys just as there are shitty people in all professions. What's that saying they use to justify corporate health care ... "the free market will take care of itself," meaning once enough people get fleeced by any given attorney, they'll soon find themselves without clients. Seems apt in this instance.

hlthe2b

(102,286 posts)
17. Trump deactivated/destroyed any ability of OSHA to react to COVID and to try to protect workers
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:13 PM
Jul 2020

from the start. He's not allowed them to even become involved. As a result his own failures along with the accompanying negligence of some hospitals and other employers of HCWs, EMTs, nursing home workers whose level of culpability in the deaths of their staff have left them and their survivors unable to even file for workman's compensation or even collect on death benefits. I have scores of HCW and physician colleagues who have contracted and in some cases died from COVID-19 while working under horrendous conditions with "disposable"PPE falling apart from repeated and unsafe reuse. My sister has been ill since May 4, not able to collect workman's comp nor extended disability and getting paid only because she had stored up months of sick and vacation time, which is almost used up. She's among 7 ER nurses who have contracted COVID-19 in the same ER and it is suspected that a poorly ventilated/rapidly constructed triage area may be to blame. Without OSHA, there's no one to investigate.

Not to mention all the millions of workers outside the health care and first responder fields, whose employers ignored even basic steps to protect them.

You think liability protection is merely tamping down on excessive, frivolous, or exploitative lawsuits during a time of a national crisis.

NO! What the R's want is NO accountability whatsoever, protecting even the most negligent who hold power or authority. They are content to let the workers absorb all the risks and horrific outcomes with the means to fight back-- with no recourse. Not even a Federal investigative agency to prevent others from suffering the same harm.


THAT is what is at stake when you take the R's side in defending including absolute protection against liability.

Mike 03

(16,616 posts)
20. Companies, institutions and individuals with power who are immune from being
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:21 PM
Jul 2020

sued are free to take extraordinary risks with other people's lives and to profit by unethical conduct with zero consequences.

Dustlawyer

(10,495 posts)
21. I will give you some examples.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:24 PM
Jul 2020

A very large hospital in the Houston Medical Center (the largest and arguably the best care in the world) was requiring the staff to sign releases in exchange for a small bonus. The reason, because the staff was at the beginning of dealing with the pandemic and the hospital, despite knowing we would eventually have a pandemic, failed to prepare for it because money. It always comes down to that. They did not have the PPE, training, or all of the equipment they would need to properly deal with what was coming because it cost money to be prepared.

The staff would be unnecessarily exposed to this potentially deadly virus due to their failure to prepare in order to return more profit to their shareholders. Do the hospital administrators get a pass and have the staff pay for their negligence and greed? What is their incentive to have the protection in the future if they cannot be penalized for their bad actions?

I handle refinery and chemical plant explosions. In Texas they put caps on damages that for an oil company are a drop in a bucket. If they can take a shortcut that could save them 48 million dollars if all goes well, they will. When it goes wrong and they pay out a $1-2 million settlement for the death of a worker and a $100,000 fine for the environmental, do you think the next time they need to do that job/maintenance again they will take the shortcut? Yes they will EVERY TIME!!! If a jury could hit them with a hundred million in punitive damages they would follow the rules.

If the hospital can throw a small bump in pay to the staff instead of stocking up and preparing for the inevitable pandemic for next time what do you think they will do. If they have immunity they do not even have to offer a bonus, it will be show up or be fired!

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
22. They can be penalized for their bad actions, at least in Massachusetts. If not..
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:51 PM
Jul 2020

... in Texas then vote, vote, vote.

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
28. A big NO NO to reduced liability for business...if they are careful and enact good policy, they
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 06:05 PM
Jul 2020

have nothing to worry about.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
29. No, that's my point. There is really a great threat of frivolous lawsuits...
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 06:08 PM
Jul 2020

... in this time of uncertainty about best practice and loss of trust in authorities. It's a real problem, and hospitals, doctors and small businesses could be badly hurt.

I get the replies that give examples of bad practice. I'm sorry not more people are aware of the lawsuit industry.

Dustlawyer

(10,495 posts)
40. Law suit industry? Great threat of frivolous lawsuits?
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 08:30 PM
Jul 2020

As a trial attorney I have to take cases that I think can win with a jury. Some cases are not as clear but have some value based upon the risk a jury will rule for the plaintiff. The settlement may not cover all of my client’s damages because of liability issues that could go either way.

Cases without merit I do not take, ever! The “frivolous lawsuit” is almost all myth. Certainly there has never been a real issue with a glut of frivolous lawsuits. The reason, trial lawyers operate on a contingency fee. We do not get paid unless we recover money for our client. We put our own money into the case expenses and only get that back out of the recovery. No recovery no money, period. We also lose the time we spent on the case. It is hard enough to get paid on good cases, why would I take something that is not a case at all?

Sometimes a trial lawyer will screw up in screening a case, or fall for a client who is lying about what happened. They will either drop the client or the judge will dismiss the case on Summary Judgement. The judges will do this!

The myth of widespread frivolous lawsuits came from astro-turf organizations sponsored by the insurance industry, U.S. Chamber of Commerce and their Institute for Legal Reform, and groups like the Koch Brothers. They convinced many Americans that our courthouses were clogged with these frivolous cases and juries were going crazy with awards. These groups, along with their media henchmen used the McDonalds coffee case as their poster child, never mind that what they portrayed was not what happened. But hey, Mickey D’s was a huge advertiser that needed their help. Juries, judges and insurance companies are not idiots, you should not have to worry about frivolous suits.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
41. It wasn't a myth for the two years I paid out money fighting a battle that ended..
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 08:36 PM
Jul 2020

... in a summary judgement for me. It's not a myth when Donald Trump frightens off legitimate complaints with the threat of lawsuits. Have you heard about Trump? He's not alone.

I wish I had a link to the episode where some talking head described having to defend against a lawsuit because of reporting that they did. It was riviting, but not riviting enough for me to recall the person/organization in question. The victim of the lawsuit was, fotunately, a big enough organization to wait it out financially. This was a liberal media report... Not a right wing "let's get rid of lawsuits" rant.

Dustlawyer

(10,495 posts)
42. I understand your anger and frustration. I did not say they never happen.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 08:51 PM
Jul 2020

Fortunately, the Donald Trump types are rare and can be labeled a vexatious litigant for repeated filing of frivolous lawsuits. We have an attorney locally who is not allowed to file his own lawsuits anymore because he received that label (he is also a Trump supporter).

I hope your experience doesn’t get you to view all cases as frivolous. Small business owners generally make terrible jurors for plaintiffs for this reason. Without the right to redress for harm caused things would be a lot less safe and many more people would get ripped off. No system is perfect, I can attest to that for sure, but it is the best system out there and many of us work hard to make it better.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
43. I certainly don't view all cases as frivolous. Please re-visit the first...
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 08:53 PM
Jul 2020

... paragraph of my OP. You're making a case for the system working. So was I. In this era of tremendous lack of clarity, I want people to depend on laws, not civil suits.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
45. Anyway, thanks for your sympathy. All through the two years...
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 09:24 PM
Jul 2020

... of our legal fight I kept thinking about how absolutely helpless a person is if they end up in a legal fight and don't have a lot of money. We don't have a lot of money, but we had an attorney as a co-plaintiff. For sure not everyone is so lucky.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
46. One more observation about the legal system.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 11:32 PM
Jul 2020

Here's a possible path forward for protecting people from frivolous lawsuits. In negotiations after the judgement were given attorney's fees. We were told not to expect that, but just a couple of months before the decision, Massachusetts passed a law targeted to frivolous lawsuits, and our attorneys speculated that the defendent attorney's firm was afraid of reprisals under that law.

Anyway. It's a problem that I think needs attention.

NCjack

(10,279 posts)
25. CEOs will hide behind liability laws for protection and provide workers
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 05:59 PM
Jul 2020

with no or shoddy workplace protection against becoming infected. As workers get sick and die, they can be discarded with no compensation to families and new victim workers hired to replace.

mackdaddy

(1,527 posts)
26. It is not "liability protection". It is shifting all liability onto the workers, and others.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 06:01 PM
Jul 2020

It will encourage bad behavior by those who already have more money and power. And take away the rights of others to leagely redress complaints. It is over riding what the courts are there to do.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
31. Why is no one concerned about the good hospitals, doctors....
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 06:43 PM
Jul 2020

.... small businesses who will, for sure, get caught up on long legal wrangles that benefit the lawyers and cost them time and money when nothing may have happened. At this point there is no clarity about what is culpable unless a government body has passed legislation.

Don't you believe that this can happen???

tia
las

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
36. I re-read it and I see that you are concerned about hospitals, physicians and..
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 08:24 PM
Jul 2020

... small business owners who may have been hurt by bad COVID practices. But I don't see any attempt to address the problem they may faced when being sued in this uncertain environment, even though they may ultimately be vindicated.

hlthe2b

(102,286 posts)
39. You are proposing taking the last possible means of redress away while rewarding those killing
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 08:27 PM
Jul 2020

my friends and colleagues (and maybe me as well). Rewarding Trump for decimating any protections remaining for other workers. Even coal miners in the coalfields of WY and WV have more protections. Had class action lawsuits been denied them, they would have NOTHING--including no treatment nor compensation for black lung disease.

Yet THIS is what you are content to argue for--the reward you wish to offer me and my colleagues who are trying to look out for everyone. Not to mention the "essential, though clearly expendable" grocery worker and others. That IS what you are arguing on behalf of. I am sickened.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
33. Why are you ignoring so may responses addressing exactly that?
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 07:04 PM
Jul 2020

I think I know... no need to rationalize it as something other than what it is.

But sure... go ahead and pretend no one is concerned.

Or is this simply another "when I say them I mean me! my posts speak for me alone!" dance routines?

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
37. Would you point to one or two responses that do that? #17 (see post above) didn't.
Wed Jul 22, 2020, 08:25 PM
Jul 2020

I realize that many replies show concern for people hurt by COVID. I don't recall seeing replies showing concern for people hurt by groundless lawsuits. And there will be many, guaranteed.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Why are Democrats so resi...