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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPenzeys Spices has no more F***s to give and lets it all hang out
I received this email this morning. I feel I can post the whole thing since Penzeys has encouraged people to repost it on FB.
FWIW, Penzeys has great spices.
This statement followed information about a sale they're having.
.....And tales of Dragons and Karens. One of the saddest parts to this time we are living through is that there is no way out of it without, on some level, fighting. There was a time when the question of: Have you no decency actually meant something to an out of control Republican because somewhere deep down they had some. In these days where unlimited political spending has seized control of the Republican Party, any decency has sadly departed. For any politician to allow trillions of dollars in damage to our environment, simply because it makes their donors billions, decency has long since left the building.
So fight we must. But we must also guard against all that fight sets in motion. There is the idea that in fighting dragons we put ourselves at risk of becoming what it is we set out to fight, and that if we fight long enough that outcome becomes inescapable. I get this, but I also believe that this is where we as Cooks have the strength to last a good bit longer before we become lost. Its good to try and always remember that its not the voters of the Republican Party that we are fighting, its the inhumanity that has overtaken them.
To survive overturning this inhumanity that has overwhelmed seemingly 40% of American voters, now more than ever we need the daily connection to our own humanity that cooking brings. As humans nothing has shaped us more than the last million years spent together gathered around the fire cooking and sharing food with those we hold close. When we cook today, even if just for ourselves, every little step, every added ingredient reconnects us to this million-year tradition of kindness. And then there are the flavors, and the way those flavors tell the stories of our lives. Cooking is good stuff. Kindness matters.
Which brings us to this Karen meme. If you are unaware, there is this thing now where its become trendy to label people, mostly white women, who inflict Republican values on those around them with the name Karen. Can we as Cooks maybe work to help stop this? Its not productive, but it is most certainly mean. Here is an email excerpt from a customer named Karen I received this weekend. She says it well:
My name is Karen. Covid-19 has forced me to stay in California while my father is in New Jersey, dying of cancer. Like many people in similarly heart-breaking positions, I am barely holding it together. Last night I checked my email to find a local restaurant was boasting that they'd created a 'Karen' cocktail that would make you want to speak to the manager. I lost it. I wound up crying myself to sleep.
Karen went on to share the stories of others named Karen also going through struggles while having to be regularly confronted by the cruelty of strangers. Karen asked me if I could try to help. So here I am. Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia all at their core have people facing cruelty for issues beyond their choosing. This Karen meme lives in the very same place. Nothing good will come of this.
Yes, people who intentionally voted a textbook racist in the White House despite him being bankrupt in most every sense of the word need to be called out for what they did. What makes this Black Lives Matters moment so transformative is that for the first time the cost of racism is no longer only being paid by those on the receiving end, but finally those creating the racism are finding themselves being canceled out for their actions. This is a very good thing. But as much as we have to call out Republican voters for their cruelty we also have to guard against that cruelty taking hold of us as well. This Karen meme is us losing that struggle. Please stop it.
Honestly with just who Cooks are I dont see a lot of you calling people not named Karen, Karens. But the reality is that not all our allies in this struggle share the gifts that the kindness of cooking brings to our lives. As someone who does cook you have far more influence over those you interact with than you most likely imagine. A gentle yet firm reminder from you can help get the ball rolling here. The truth is 11.3.20 isnt the finish line for the struggle we are in, but more like the starting gate. If we are already growing scales and breathing fire we will ourselves be dragons long before this fight is won. This all matters too much. Be Kind. Choose Love.
And we did extend this offer another day to end Wednesday instead of today which helped us keep pace with the orders coming in, but orders placed today at penzeys.com for delivery most likely still wont start shipping for another ten days. If you have the option to place an order for touchless pickup in one of our stores, they are pretty much caught up. But if mail order works better for you, orders ship in the order received so theres lots to be said for placing one today and beating the rush that tomorrows midnight deadline is sure to bring.
Either way be sure to enter Love in the apply code box at checkout. Choosing Love is what this time needs.
Be kind to Karens! Thanks,
Bill
bill@penzeys.com
P.S. July is not the month for us to advertise on Facebook, but feel free to post any of our emails if you like or to forward emails directly to those you know who might like them. And if this email did not come from us but was forwarded by someone else, please sign up here. A business is only as good as its customers. You would make us even better. And seriously please stay safe. You are needed. Thanks.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)They're right that Election Day isn't the finish line. Comparing the Karen meme to actual racism? No. We even got sad white woman's tears in it, too.
madaboutharry
(40,212 posts)It is just wrong.
For context, for decades Hurricanes were given exclusively female names. The origin of naming Hurricanes after women occurred when a radio announcer giving a report on an incoming Hurricane said something to the effect of "this Hurricane reminds me of my ex-wife..(insert name here)...."
And it caught on. Finally, after many decades the National Weather Service listened to the complaints of women who pointed out the sexism of naming Hurricanes after women and began assigning both female and male names.
This Karen thing is no different.
handmade34
(22,756 posts)agree
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)madaboutharry
(40,212 posts)The "Karen" meme is not exclusively being applied to women in instances of racist behavior.
The label "Karen" is now applied to any woman who gets annoyed, upset, gets into an argument, or complains for any reason. Women are being labeled "Karen" for simply speaking up.
"Karen" is being used to tell women to shut up and sit down.
It is misogyny whether you choose to recognize or not.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)misogynistic. Words, symbols and memes are all like that. Using the term Karen to describe a white woman being racist in a specific way is not misogynistic, however.
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)It isn't exclusively used that way.
If it were, you might have an argument.
mia
(8,361 posts)Thank you.
LisaM
(27,815 posts)I have automatically been trashing any thread with the Karen meme, but I did stop and read this one since it was Penzey's. Glad I did.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)I continue to be stunned that "progressives" fail to see that.
They are writing off pushing back against sexism as a dismissal of racism. Why the fuck can't we say knock off the sexism without being acused of distracting from racism? Get rid of both you numskulls!
Hekate
(90,721 posts)...and making sure it is about white women without other qualifications is troubling.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)supremacy, and the Karen concept/meme nails it.
Celerity
(43,422 posts)madaboutharry
(40,212 posts)There is no validity in that.
Celerity
(43,422 posts)Done here with the faux feminism angles to try and kneecap valid pushback.
These threads are so telling.
madaboutharry
(40,212 posts)The things you find out about people.
obamanut2012
(26,083 posts)Where do you get off with that??? People so easily tell women to stfu and get over something we see as harmful and offensive.
Get over yourself. You have no right to talk to us like this.
Celerity
(43,422 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I hope that people will fast-forward to the 55-second mark to actually LISTEN to what she's saying. Or read it. (I've made it as easy as possible for others by including a transcript that I typed myself.)
TRANSCRIPT of AMANDA SEALES (actress and comedian)
A "Karen" is a white woman whose oblivion of their privilege causes them to act in a way that is oppressive, and often-times... insane.
(video clip)
Some might think that a "Karen" is just a loud white woman asking for the manager. You know, disrupting your customer service experience. But I'm here to tell ya, Karen goes a lot deeper.
(video clip)
Karen is a white woman who is a descendant of those who came before her who could scream and get a black man killed, who could point and get a black woman murdered.
(video clips)
For me these videos are very triggering. I think that there's a certain level of like "oh-ha-ha-ha they're annoying" when you're just watching it. But when you're in that situation it is not an annoyance, it is a disruption of your being.
You know that as a person of color--specifically a black person--you are the one who's going to be in the situation of having to prove your innocence.
Celerity
(43,422 posts)Hekate
(90,721 posts)...from the first moment I saw the video. I kept saying it. It was awhile before anyone else in those DU threads picked up on it in that way. Oh, she was obnoxious. Oh, she abused her dog. Oh, she was entitled.
No, godsdammit, she tried to get him KILLED by the police. It was that RAW for me, and I am not now nor have I ever been anything but white, although the term changes with the regions where Ive lived.
She was caught out in a location. She had a behavior. She has a name of her own, too but what well remember is dog-walking in Central Park trying to get a black man killed for having the nerve to tell her to leash her dog.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)I am going to have to take a step back. So disappointing and frustrating to see this on a Democratic forum.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)Hekate
(90,721 posts)I am surprised at who has shown up to defend it.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)obamanut2012
(26,083 posts)People are literally using it to sub for bitch and cword, and doing it very gleefully.
CCExile
(469 posts)ms liberty
(8,581 posts)Feel just as you do!
I happen to have a cousin named Karen, who is a total Karen, but so is her sister who is not named Karen, lol. It is a stereotype but a valid one.These aren't the only names that are used to describe a stereotype, and this isn't about misogyny, IMO.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)madaboutharry
(40,212 posts)I think that would cover it.
BComplex
(8,054 posts)What is it about the USA that everyone needs to make stuff all about THEM. Nobody cares about each Karen. People do care about the CONCEPT of "karen" that the term has come to mean. Nobody, except maybe really really stupid people, think that any specific person named Karen is a "karen".
People named Karen, for real, need to get over themselves, if they're deciding to make this personal, and all about them. My niece Karen hasn't thought twice about it. Trump has made the whole universe about ME ME ME ME, and people need to quit trying so hard to take everything personally. I'm just sick of the "poor me" culture.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)We need to just knock it off. It's disgusting behavior, and coming from people supposedly on our side, it is disheartening to see.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)of innocent women have.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)It means someone who is abusing their white privilege, often in a racist way.
If your only real issue with the name is that it is shared by innocent women, I expect you to be equally alarmed and dismayed by the alternative meaning of common male names like Dick, John and Randy.
It bothers me that some folks are more concerned with calling out racist white privilege than they appear to be concerned about that behavior in the first place.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)PTWB
(4,131 posts)See: John, Dick, Randy and any other names that have unflattering alternate meanings.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Maybe we should question how much of the thought patterns of the Russiapublicans have seeped into our own world.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)No one is saying folks with the name Karen, Dick, John or Randy have attributes associated with their names alternate meaning.
There is no brigade whenever someone calls a jerk a Dick, calls a toilet a (or someone who hires the services of an escort) John, or says someone looking to get laid is being a Randy. People accept that words have multiple meanings.
I several very nice people named Karen. I also have seen quite a few people behaving in ways that deserve to be shamed - ways in which theyre exploiting their white privilege - and I have no issue with their behavior being labeled.
In todays culture, a hashtag #racistwhiteprivilegeexploiter is not going to trend like #karen will.
Anyone who uses Karen in a misogynistic way ought to be shamed. But using it appropriately is not problematic at all.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)America is beginning to understand how we got to this ugly place. Names are part of it.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)The whole concept of protecting the identity of racist people is ridiculous. When they choose to behave in racist ways, especially in public, they should absolutely be labeled, identified, named, shamed and forced to suffer consequences for the aforementioned racism.
Hekate
(90,721 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Did you just equate some racist white women being called "Karen" with a black man who was lynched by the police as he begged for his life?
Did you REALLY just do that?
PTWB
(4,131 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)luvtheGWN
(1,336 posts)I wonder how many blonde Barbies have had to put up with folks thinking they're nothing more than mindless dolls. Same with Kens. Along with "Bubba" as a pejorative term for certain southern boys and men.
I think I read somewhere how "Karen" came about -- it happened to be the name of a woman caught on video behaving badly.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)In a linguistic sense, it's really a powerful descriptor, instantly grasped by others who are in the know. Incidentally, there are about 1.4 people with the first name "Karen" in the U.S.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)most of whom would be disgusted by the behavior that some here are trying to tar them with.
It is, however, a popular stereotyping label. Aren't we supposed to be the good guys? WTF is happening to us?
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)is meant to slander every person named Tom. Same with "Debbie Downer" or "Chatty Cathy." These are also names used to describe behavior in a jocular way, and there are little expectations of those specific behaviors for people who have those names.
chia
(2,244 posts)RobinA
(9,894 posts)a few months ago "Karen" had nothing to do with anything racist. At least in my parts. It just meant generic female.
pamela
(3,469 posts)That .4 Karen is probably causing all the trouble.
Celerity
(43,422 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Are we proud of that?
Celerity
(43,422 posts)The threads are so predictable.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Noted.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)It's specifically for those who exhibit particular nasty behavior - trying to get some poor service worker fired because her Starbucks had soy milk instead of almond milk in it, throwing a tantrum and making a scene, and all together now, being a racist scumbag.
You have to have done something especially obnoxious along those lines to get called a Karen. It's not just having two X chromosomes.
And I don't use the meme on innocent Karens (I mean the ones who actually have the given name Karen). C'mon.
obamanut2012
(26,083 posts)And as a way to tell women to stfu and sit down. We have had women on this board be treated this way with this word.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Not just on being argumentative.
MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)Posted on DU, Exhibit A:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213610773
Thats just a drop in the bucket of how this is playing out.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)She called the police on a Black family having a cook-out. She's what the meme is about.
MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)then maybe you will understand how memes go wrong.
I know exactly what the origins of the meme are. But it has devolved into a substitute for the b-word. Thats what the pushback is about.
We can do better than lazy memes.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)however it's using it in context of her fitting the Karen meme, not just generally being an opinionated woman.
MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)And down that hill we slide.
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/100213655862
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I'm not going to center the comfort of White women in an overall discussion of racism, and I see the Karen meme as being created by Black people and other POC to confront racism.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)For instance, Paul Joseph Watson, a British associate of Alex Jones, posted a video of a woman being passed on a footpath, extremely closely, by a (white) cyclist, at whom she shouted "that's not social distancing". He titled it "OK Karen!". And then, for good measure, and because his followers are misogynistic and not guaranteed to pick up on recent uses, called her a "bitch" too. I saw this posted on a British web forum, and the right-wingers guffawed, pleased at having a class of people to call "Karen" while they hate them.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)SleeplessinSoCal
(9,123 posts)Karen
The stereotypical name associated with rude, obnoxious and insufferable middle aged white women.
Karens take everything wrong with the typical over entitled western woman and crank it up by several thousand percent. They are a mutated subspecies that descends from the Soccer Mom, and have many of their traits. Such as a short temper, a crown bowl haircut, an unnecessarily large SUV to take her kids to soccer practice and be a menace on the road, etc etc. But Karens have developed their own unique characteristics /antics as well. Including but not limited to;
-Reveling in making the life or retail workers a living hell by constantly making a scene over nothing and demanding to "speak to the manager" (a near universal battle cry among Karens).
-Threatening to sue someone for a minor misdemeanor they may or may not have committed and may or may not have even involved Karen at all.
-Treating the drive thru line like the set of a Mad Max film by cutting in line and honking at anyone who tries to get in. Even willing dent other people's cars to save 45 seconds in getting her $1 muffin. (Karens in this situation may or may not ask to speak to the drive thru worker's manager and / or threaten to sue the drivers of the car she just rammed.)
-Being a part of the anti-vax crowd and relying on Essential Oils for the health of their children because of a Facebook post she saw.
-Reading erotica that makes 50 shades of grey look like Hamlet by comparison in public.
And Many Others.
Cahsier: Okay Ma'm, that'll be 27.75. Will you be paying with Cash or Card?
Karen: Uhm, that was incredibly rude! I'd like to speak with your manger.
Cashier:.....For what?...
Karen: HOW FUCKING DARE YOU SPEAK TO ME THAT WAY! *Karen's scream is loud enough to shatter eardrums, including that of the unvaccinated son standing right next to her* I WILL SUE YOU INTO OBLIVION! YOU'LL NEVER FUCKING DISRESPECT ME LIKE THAT AGAIN! *begins throwing nearby objects at the Cashier in a fit of rage. The Cashier takes cover behind the counter as he fears for his safety*
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Karen
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)"Let's all be mean to white women named Karen because they're white"?
I'm not comparing the Karen meme to racism BTW. Just suggesting that maybe it's not okay to be hurtful towards other people, even if they aren't members of a persecuted group.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)Where did I say that?
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)who was suffering emotional distress over the use of this meme, and you made a mocking and dismissive comment about "white women's tears".
I don't see any other possible interpretation of your post.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)their given name and black women crying about their sisters' and brothers' deaths at the hands of the state, I know that the pain is not equal, I know and I know where my sympathies lie.
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)I understand that there are different degrees of hurtfulness, but that doesn't make lesser forms of it okay, just because you can find worse forms, at least IMHO.
I don't find hurtfulness to be a zero sum game wherein a less severe form isexcused or exonerated by the presence of more severe forms.
It's obvious that I am very much out of step with most of DU in holding these views, and will bow out of any further discussion.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)secondwind
(16,903 posts)This reminded me of an "office joke" that my Mom showed me in late 60's
It was a photocopied ad for "Dammitol"
These were passed around like "memes" are shared today
Old is new again
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I am going to show your post to my daughter, though, just to remind her that her generation didnt invent the meme. They just named it.
-Laelth
Had a stack of these, mostly "off-color" jokes and double-entendre stuff, crude comics etc.
I was apalled that she even read this kind of thing.(I was 12)
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)That was awesome
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)But the fact is, if someone is labeling you "Karen," that means you've done something to warrant that label. You're not just sitting there minding your own business. And generally it means that you've stepped into something--into somebody else's business--that you have no business stepping into.
And you've made a spectacle of yourself based on some degree of privilege that you believe that you have. If that applies to you, KAREN, then that applies to you! If it doesn't apply to you, then just let it fly! Why people want to...when people are like "oh, it's the new n-word"... ARE YOU SERIOUS, KAREN?! That is a Karen! Okay?
-Laelth
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)Hell yeah.
This all reminds me of the hand wringing over Ok, Boomer!
We need to stop centering the discomfort of white women in every issue.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)"I'd like to help fight systemic racism, but the oppressed people keep hurting my feelings, so let's talk about ME!"
irisblue
(32,985 posts)USALiberal
(10,877 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Yes indeed! Lettuce get together sometime. Olive chatting with you, and I relish every moment... but it romaines to be seen if we'll have enough thyme. Peas call me and we'll set up a date.
hlthe2b
(102,301 posts)Great company.
barbtries
(28,799 posts)by buying their spices. But the Karen thing is not a hill i want to die on. My son and my brother are both named John. Like a toilet, or a prostitute's customer, a jilted lover, or an unidentified dead body.
Karen is a good way to identify a white racist woman. I think it will stick. Hopefully people named Karen will not take it personally. I know a couple. One is liberal the other is a Karen.
madaboutharry
(40,212 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)I assume that includes you. It also includes black women, who cannot be equal until they're no longer seen as handy targets of the cultural malice against women that this phenomenon spotlights.
The only way to identify these white racist women is with their own names.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Interesting reading on this:
https://escholarship.org/uc/item/5fm4h8wm
In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.
I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice.Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color,1 on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, Sue, who had been sitting next to a white man, Bill, approached me and declared, Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals. Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of solutions to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence answer to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.
So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying:
My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example, if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individualsit's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)superiority, or inferiority, which are of course used to advance racism. How could they not?
As with everything, some people are using this examination of roles in society for bad and some for good. When examining our roles makes us better people, it's for the good. When it's to justify racist attitudes against all of a people, which it inevitably is very widely, it's bad.
That's because considering ALL of a people are bad in some way and excusing abuse of them are the very essence of dishonest bigotry/bias, and its subset racism. And since we're supposed to all adopt collective guilt individually, it turns out each of us is guilty of every sickening crime ever perpetrated as part of racist evils.
But, if collective guilt exists, no one escapes, bad taste as it may be to mention this reality. Racism exists under every color of skin; it's a human characteristic. All varieties of multiracial mixes exist in our nation, and of course virtually all parts of each person would be guilty of persecuting their others, as well as almost everyone else. Middle class and wealthy AA have existed and procreated for a very long time, and goodness knows their descendants should be bitterly ashamed of their collective part in institutionalized abuse of the less fortunate. And, distasteful as it may be to mention it, slavery existed in Africa millennia before the first European settlements in North America and became illegal in the U.S. before in West African nations, although it continued unofficially there for a few more decades.
With collective guilt, it can't be escaped: ALL are guilty.
Big no to the whole thing. It's ugly and divisive, and inevitably already has become a tool of racists to act out racist antagonisms. No matter how finely the rationale is spun, no matter how many articles and chapters are eagerly gobbled up by both racists and those eager to embrace this form of racism, for decent people to wallow in imagined guilt for murdering Dr. King is neither sensible nor honest, and a distraction from focusing on positive solutions.
But overdoing the one-race racial collective guilt concept will have its moment and pass. Because we advance.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I don't understand how guilt got into the conversation.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Penzey's feels its indecency and rejects it. And I admire them for that.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)chia
(2,244 posts)concurrent with the course on cultural psychology (not just the basic social psychology survey course but studying collectivist and individualistic societies). Sounds like the co-facilitator you cited was (among many other ideas, I'm sure) drawing a connection between outgroup homogeneity bias and the behaviors of our highly individualistic society. Excellent summation of "Sue's" thinking and why it's so hard to dislodge.
Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)You beat me to posting it!
Jirel
(2,018 posts)It rambles. Wow. Someone needs an editor.
Also, they and everyone here who doesnt like it can keep complaining about Karen. Karen is a beautifully descriptive word, and many of us will keep using it despite all the false claims of misogyny. Will also keep using Kyle and Chad, and laughing at the false complaints that Karen is sexist because there is no male equivalent.
Will also keep using Penzeys because their spices and politics rock, despite totally missing the boat on this one.
seaglass
(8,173 posts)Karen:
About 5,490 results (0.25 seconds)
Chad:
About 1,710 results (0.28 seconds)
and top Chad results:
Chad army vehicles head for Cameroon to fight Boko Haram
What Chad has to do with Trump and Niger
Sudan Out, Chad In
Kyle:
About 2,450 results (0.30 seconds)
top Kyle results:
"Kyle Driver" Pounds It On Fox News - THIS is how you do it (about Kyle Kulinsky)
DOCs SHOW: Conservative hero American Sniper Chris Kyle grossly exaggerated his military record
tweets from Justice Democrats' co-founder, Kyle Kulinski (Secular Talk):
So yeah, no male equivalent. Or maybe no white male racists
Great work. I love a good evidence-based retort!
Celerity
(43,422 posts)seaglass
(8,173 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Glad to see they're still at it, and thanks for posting it, Madaboutharry.
"Be kind to Karens."
Of course.
Nail the perps bv their own names with the condemnation each earns. No hiding them among all women.
Of course.
ecstatic
(32,712 posts)It started with someone insisting that the name Karen should be completely off limits because a good person named Karen might be offended. When that approach didn't work, the grievance was upgraded into a sexism issue. When that declaration was ignored, we started hearing reports of good/innocent women named Karen who were traumatized by the memes. Seriously? I'm not buying it this time.
I've seen different names incorporated into memes over the years: Becky, Felicia, etc, and I've never heard an outcry until the name Karen. It's bizarre. It almost seems to confirm that the nickname is accurate.
That being said, I've heard the outcry and out of respect, I haven't used the meme on DU or Twitter just in case someone out there is somehow internalizing something that should have nothing to do with her.
Just my humble opinion.
Baltimike
(4,146 posts)Fox Point seasoning comes in very handy around this house
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)madaboutharry
(40,212 posts)It is about misogyny and sexism.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Because a lot of racism is set up around protection of the comfort of White women, which is where the behavior criticized by the Karen meme comes from.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)irisblue
(32,985 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)in emulation of our worst enemies?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)chia
(2,244 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 14, 2020, 02:48 PM - Edit history (1)
chia
(2,244 posts)Warpy
(111,283 posts)since I never eat out and tend to season with a very heavy hand.
It's about time to start putting an order together for when the heat starts to break a little. Ordering anything edible in 105F heat just doesn't work and this summer has been just that miserable so far.
padfun
(1,786 posts)And that isn't my name.
AllaN01Bear
(18,273 posts)niyad
(113,413 posts)Savory, another amazing spice shop. I have gone in at times (although not since stay-at-home), for my own version of aromatherapy.
AllyCat
(16,193 posts)Love this place and before the pandemic, went in whenever I could.
IronLionZion
(45,465 posts)It would be very interesting to observe and collect data on a turn the tables experiment:
1. How many are willing to try it.
2. How quickly white women will want to switch back.
3. How many black males would like to stay as white women vs switch back
4. How many DUers will call me anti-trans for suggesting such a gendered racial experiment.
wcollar
(176 posts)Replace "Karen" with Ivanka.................
gollygee
(22,336 posts)so we can't just vote on a change here. You'd have to get all of Twitter, Reddit, and Instagram behind it.
chia
(2,244 posts)A name fewer White women in the US have. It's just about centering White women's comfort.
Ms. Toad
(34,076 posts)If that was the case, you would be correct.
But those of us who believe it is a misogynistic meme are not making that suggestion.
flying_wahini
(6,611 posts)Evolve Dammit
(16,743 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)chia
(2,244 posts)I agree with you that the angst over Karen "centers the discomfort of white women," and really like how you phrased that, I sensed it but didn't have the best words for it, so thank you for that.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)It's frustrating. And the Karen meme attacks something very specific - the tendency for systems and institutions in the US to center the comfort of White women. A good chunk of the history of racism in the US is about the comfort of White women. A lot of lynchings were because of a White woman claiming someone made her uncomfortable. We really need to center the voices and experiences of Black people and other POC if we are going to make any kind of real change. This Karen meme is leading to change, but it makes White women uncomfortable. The change is more important than the discomfort.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)to demand that people stop making them feel uncomfortable. The irony and circularity are almost funny.
chia
(2,244 posts)Evolve Dammit
(16,743 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)and I think very few Barbaras shorten it to "Barbie".
"Ivanka" is an extremely uncommon name in English-speaking countries, with just one well-known example, who exemplifies the faults people want a stereotype for. "Karen", on the other hand, was named by a guy divorcing his wife call Karen, who posted on the internet endlessly on all her faults as he saw them. They did not include racism, as far as I am aware. And the public has no idea whether her was characterising her accurately, whereas we all know Ivanka Trump is a complete asshole, and has thrust herself into the spotlight.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)The more of those there are, the less appropriate it is, and the more you are being unfair. There's only one Ivanka we know, and she's a shit. So using her name to refer to shits in general is more reasonable.
Ingersollman
(204 posts)say call them Ivankas instead.
usedtobedemgurl
(1,140 posts)I searched my email, but to no avail. 😢
BobTheSubgenius
(11,564 posts)He clearly thinks about things.
Hamlette
(15,412 posts)Hekate
(90,721 posts)...with what actual individuals are doing or are located at the time they misbehave? And why in hell pick a womans name and claim (as I have seen here, of all places) that it is gender neutral? The hell it is.
Here are a few for everyones consideration:
Dog-walkin Debby
Costco Cathy
Central Park Carrie
Walmart Wanda
Permit Patty
Lemonade Lucy
We can certainly do better than this lazy meme.
For the males among the throng:
Gun-totin Gerald
Concealed Carry Charlie
No-Mask Norbert
Roid-rage Randy
Walmart Walter
chia
(2,244 posts)I'm not following your line of reasoning. It seems you're saying that those who don't approve of Karen will approve of Becky or Debby?
Hekate
(90,721 posts)Make it specific to the location and behavior.
The woman who got called BBQ Becky (and not by me) was actually interfering in a familys peaceful BBQ in a public park. She was filmed, shamed by it going viral, and her actual name was unearthed. But the message is: Dont be her. It was specific.
Permit Patty (also not named by me) was, iirc, demanding that a child show her a permit for running a lemonade and cold water stand in her own neighborhood. Same result: episode was filmed, went viral, and she was identified and shamed.
Is this line of reasoning still too difficult to follow? Ah well, I am sure we will meet again another day, and enlightenment will follow.
chia
(2,244 posts)for a long time. Regretfully, due to my lack of enlightenment, I'm still getting the same impression after reading your latest post, which is that using names of women is fine as long as people vary the names and locations/objects.
Seems this third way, neither the "never use a woman's name" nor "only use the woman's name I don't like" is a commendable effort to bridge the gap and I applaud your efforts to encourage modifying the various names with a location or object.
In the meantime, I'll muddle on as best I can, encumbered as I am with so little enlightenment that I'm only dimly aware enough to hold the thought that Karen is just so... perfect.
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)And the husband is Biff. Biff 'n' Muff.
My sister Karen was a sweet, wonderful person. She died of cancer. Her funeral was 30 years ago tomorrow. And I still miss her every single day.
These names like Karen, Susan, Patty are all baby boomer names. The women called this are younger than boomers.
Hekate
(90,721 posts)Yes, yes it does. Thanks for the suggestion. Though the self-righteousness is in full flow at the moment, perhaps more light will shine in.
for sweet memories of your sister Karen.