George Washington and Thomas Jefferson statues and memorials are not because they owned slaves, but

[still_one]

but because of their ideas about democracy

In contrast the confederate statues are there to celebrate people who believed in owning other people, and leaving the union to propagate those views. The only heritage they represent is a heritage of racism and bigotry

[RockRaven]

1. I think a lot of people today are not so enamored with ideas of democracy being

limited to land-owning white men, but I do recognize that there is a marginal but important difference between them and Confederates.

[still_one]

2. One cannot just pick out the deficiencies of the original ideas without acknowledging that it

also incorporated a mechanism to address those deficiencies through amendments

[Mme. Defarge]

8. Not marginal for the Union soldiers who lost their lives

in a righteous cause.

[Big Blue Marble]

11. There is far more than a marginal difference.

What our founders thought and what they did was revolutionary. They bent the
arch of history. It was a major part to the transformation that began with the
Magna Carta and continues to this day.

[PTWB]

3. And the Lincoln monument is not dedicated to his white supremacy

Last edited Wed Jul 1, 2020, 05:01 PM - Edit history (1)

But rather to his contributions to our country.

That doesn’t mean we need to whitewash his white supremacy or, perhaps in time, relegate these monuments to museums of American history.

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.” - Abraham Lincoln, 1858

[still_one]

4. We are definitely on the same page

[Backseat Driver]

20. And so it continues, still one and PTWB...we make jokes to the effect that

BFCD (black folks can't drive) and WPCJ (white people can't jump) et al that are not (jokes)--to members of our "tribes"

Perhaps Abe wrote that during a bout of the deep depressions from which he has been reported to suffer. The fact is, we've never made adequate strides in the care of those of any race that suffer through mental illness. Human brains can and do self-loath when they somehow reach their limits of philosophic introspection, loss of self-esteem, guilt about unimaginable deeds and ideas, and unremittent physiological pain. During those times he suffered, he could have ended his own life but continued to make contributions to the country that he loved despite the injustices that he most likely saw as a lawyer or intuited in his soul and was assassinated, a criminal violent end.

[Quixote1818]

5. I agree, however as a white person I probably don't fully understand how these statues might make

minorities feel. So I want to try and understand if they are hurtful to them. That being said, I think we need to be careful going too quickly. I think society is ready to take down the confederate monuments but not those of the Founders and so we risk alienating voters if we move too quickly. I think eventually they will all come down but not sure this is the right time for the founders to come down.

[still_one]

7. Sure. I just think there is a difference where the confederate monuments honored

ideas of secession, bigotry, and racism

It's definitely way past due for the country to have an open discussion on this

[ProfessorGAC]

14. They Are Also Symbols Of Intimidation

Part of their intent was to intimidate the freed slave population.
Reminders of a much worse time. "See our statue? And don't you forget it!"
Comparing that to the "not quite enlightened enough" 18th century thinkers is comparing asteroids to pineapples.
Did the founders have flaws? Unquestionably.
Are those flaws directly the cause of their historical success? I don't think so.
With the traitor generals, their place in history is solely due to the desire to protect slavery & abuse.
Asteroids & pineapples.

[still_one]

16. Never considered that. Also a definite attempt to rewrite history

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

6. We have to be a little careful when we try to judge

people centuries past by today's standards. If all of a sudden every single slave-owner in this country is scum and should not have a statue up or a school or road named after him, then we will become a country without any knowledge of its history. We will live up to George Orwell's vision of 1984 were their history was constantly rewritten. Words were eliminated from the language.

[still_one]

9. I agree

[LuvNewcastle]

13. Yes, I agree.

It's part of our culture to make statues and memorials of people, and they're not always done in a positive light. I love to go to old cemeteries and look at all the statues and marble and granite work. Europe is full of these works and a lot are dedicated to horrible people -- just look at those Roman emperors and royalty.

I don't think these works should be pulled down without some deliberation by authorities. Simply put, those monuments do not belong to the protesters and they aren't theirs to take down. If the city, county, state, or feds decide to pull them down, okay, but there should be a process and it shouldn't be done because some group of bored people think it's the right thing to do.

[kskiska]

17. I agree.

The unfortunate truth is that this country was built on slave labor. There's no way to ignore it, but no reason to celebrate it.

[MosheFeingold]

10. They're picking on Patton

Because he said antisemitic things.

Well, Patton was an asshole. He was also spectacular at killing Nazis (while keeping his men alive).

I call that a win.

If there would be a statutes for only perfect people, then only my Grandma would get a statue!

(And also my golden retriever)

[ProfessorGAC]

15. My Yellow Lab Says "Not So Fast, Moshe!"

Apparently he has info on your retriever. Won't say what he knows, though. Too many mob movies for him, I think!

[Phoenix61]

12. Let's take down all the statues of

men who thought women shouldn’t own property or vote or be educated.... Pretty silly, right? Those in the past will always lose when judged by the standards of today. That’s good. It means we’re growing. But there were those who were wrong even in their time like the confederate generals. I believe there’s a lot to be said for changing the plaques in front of statues like Lincoln and Jefferson to tell the full story, not just the pretty parts.

[whopis01]

18. One problem is the percentage of statues of white men.

The desire to tear down statues of Confederate leaders makes perfect sense to me.

I understand the desire to keep going and tear down those of others like Washington and Jefferson. I am not saying I agree with it, but I do understand it.

In part it is because the pendulum has begun to swing back the other way. It has a lot of momentum and some overshoot is to be expected.

I would like to see the effort to include more statues and memorials to people other than white males. There are plenty of women, people of colour, and others that are as deserving of a statue as Washington or Jefferson.

I would like to see the removed statues replaced with ones of people like Harriet Tubman or Robert Smalls.


Tearing down the bad needs to happen. Putting up the good needs to happen.

As someone else said in this thread, if you only put up statues of perfect people, there aren't going to be many statues.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

19. Not a fan of statues of hypocrites.

[Hortensis]

21. Lol. Maybe we should only say that in front of mirrors

to careful scrutiny. After all, before all that long many of the expressions of bigotry and racial enmity freely indulged in now by some anti-bigotry fighters (who're encouraged to believe they're okay because "everyone" does it) will have become very unacceptable.

Our generations will continue to advance over time, just as those of our parents and grands did. But sure as huge changes in societal attitudes take time, slow and recalcitrant learners among us are doomed to someday be sat down by their own children and firmly told they cannot allow "that kind of talk" in front of their children.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

22. Maybe we don't need statues at all.

[Hortensis]

23. We don't need statues of generals instead of

heroic first responders and vaccine developers humanity owes huge debts to.

But we'll always need mirrors.