General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTweets from Dan Rather and Laurence Tribe, minutes ago, warning us what Trump is up to
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
I posted an OP earlier about Howard Fineman's warning today
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213635021
and my reply 6 there is about the warning today from Brian Klaas.
Newest Reality
(12,712 posts)One if by land. Two if by sea. Three if by an orange sphincter face tyrant with twitchy thumbs on Twitter.
The end game dynamic is emerging. Time to pay attention to that.
wnylib
(21,582 posts)I'm thinking of other countries where contested election results ended up in fighting in the streets when each candidate claimed to be the new president while their followers fought each other.
He will need to be forcibly removed, but I expect his faithful gun-toting thugs will rebel openly.
Lock him up.
(6,939 posts)Orangeanus can whine, throw tantrums, accusations without any evidence, but the day the Electoral College votes, there's nothing he can do about it. Nothing. Powerless. On January 20 at noon, if he's still infecting the White House with his corrupt family, they will be escorted out the front-lawn's gate by the Secret Service.
I'm more afraid of what Putin could do than what that idiot can.
Lock him up.
wnylib
(21,582 posts)people's votes for EC delegates will be accurately reported and counted? There's a lot that Putin and Trump can do to affect the votes and how they're counted. Just ask Al Gore.
What makes you sure that Trump would be powerless after the EC votes are cast?
And what about the period between election day and the day that the EC votes are certified? Or the day that the EC votes are supposed to be certified in the Senate, with either Pence or the Senate President Pro Tempore presiding?
malaise
(269,157 posts)He'll run like a fucking coward
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)Putin will do everything he can to fuck with this election and then inform Dipshit Donnie to throw gasoline on the fire.
wnylib
(21,582 posts)SoonerPride
(12,286 posts)and we will drag him through the streets if we have to
He ain't staying in power after January 20th.
luv2fly
(2,475 posts)But let's keep the bastard clothed, please.
certainot
(9,090 posts)his ability to sell voter fraud is built on at least 2 decades of lying from limbaugh-led radio stations and their continued coordination in service to trump, with putin using them as well, depends on americans ignoring them. those are key to trump thinking he can sell that voter fraud bullshit.
it not only enables him and most other republicans, it allows him, through limbaugh and his leadership of all the other blowhards to intimidate most other republican politicians. they're counting on limbaugh to lead the chorus screaming about voter fraud when they find or create a few examples they can use over and over and over. talk radio is the only medium they completely control AND can be controlled and coordinated on the local and state level. all close or critical elections are going to be challenged by screaming hordes brought out by those radio stations (very small groups of dittoheads, trumpers, teabags with very loud radio stations in their sails sounding much bigger then they are). republicans count on dems ignoring it as usual like we have for the last 30 years, with media calling them 'popular movements'.
without those radio stations on his side 15 hrs/day he can't do shit and he's freaking out, along with a lot of republican politicians that it's leader limbaugh is going to croak before long. he was missing again today.
all it would take is a few, even one famous athlete saying they want their teams (100s of pro and university teams) to stop broadcasting on KKK talk radio and the whole 30 years talk radio empire will fall apart with advertisers and ad agencies doing all the work.
but those athletes don't know how they have been used to excuse racism and sell the myth there is no racism or white privilege
without talk radio there on his side there are a bunch of GOP senators that would drop him and if dems/nancy go for another impeachment it would not be hard to get the senators needed.
no need to see trump naked in the street
Tess49
(1,580 posts)duforsure
(11,885 posts)And hope they reverse everything he's done from it being rigged for him by putin and other corrupt fascists dictators he's pals with.
Wounded Bear
(58,698 posts)dalton99a
(81,568 posts)ooky
(8,926 posts)Mike 03
(16,616 posts)This needs to be discussed rather than blown off as the rantings of a lunatic. We all need to be prepared for this possibility and give some thought to how we'll respond if it happens.
"Put all his allies on the record."
And also, put previous presidents and Supreme Court Justices on the record. I think Thomas Friedman sensed this coming when he suggested John Roberts, President Obama and George W. Bush could unite into a single front if events were to spin beyond control.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Mysteriously. After being down everywhere in polls. Let's just say Biden is up by 8 points in Ohio on election eve. And after vote, trump looks like he's ahead by more than recount threshold and is declared winner. Then what do we do? Would any republican governor demand an investigation?
wnylib
(21,582 posts)Be complicit.
No matter which side has or appears to have the votes, it will be ugly.
Neither side is willing to accept a win by the other side due to mistrust. Only one side is openly, illegally engineering a win. But both sides suspect each other.
I, too, am concerned about a phony win by Trump. I think there will be some serious civil unrest, regardless of who is declared (or declares himself) to be the winner.
Only question in my mind now is how will we handle it? As individuals and as agencies and institutions? Who will restore order, and how?
I suspect that people with more power and influence than ordinary citizens are already thinking about this and making contingency plans.
alfredo
(60,075 posts)Some states dont have penalties for unfaithful electors
https://www.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws
https://infogram.com/states-laws-binding-electors-1g9vp1ywyrxlp4y
wnylib
(21,582 posts)is a possibility.
Anything is a possibility, since Trump and his enablers will do anything to hold onto power. So we should prepare for anything we can imagine. And still there can be things we don't think of that they might do. These are people with no boxes to think outside of. Anything goes with them. That's very apparent from the last 3 1/2 years.
alfredo
(60,075 posts)FM123
(10,054 posts)1/ Beg dictators to help
2/ Create chaos with budget shutdown
3/ Use #Barr to suppress votes
4/ Reject the count
5/ Contest the count in courts
6/ Defy their rulings
7/Force authorities to remove him Noon Jan. 20, 2021.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)there was a recent article saying they were preparing for a second wave in Nov
plays right into the "chaos" part and ability to claim any mail ins are fake
Bettie
(16,121 posts)four states declared that they were unable to certify their elections. That could happen again.
https://www.270towin.com/1876_Election/ (This was the most concise explanation I have found)
The United States presidential election of 1876 was one of the most disputed presidential elections in American history. Samuel J. Tilden of New York outpolled Ohio's Rutherford B. Hayes in the popular vote, and had 184 electoral votes to Hayes' 165, with 20 votes uncounted. These 20 electoral votes were in dispute: in three states (Florida, Louisiana, and South Carolina), each party reported its candidate had won the state, while in Oregon one elector was declared illegal (as an "elected or appointed official" and replaced. The 20 disputed electoral votes were ultimately awarded to Hayes after a bitter legal and political battle, giving him the victory.
Many historians believe that an informal deal was struck to resolve the dispute: the Compromise of 1877. In return for the Democrats' acquiescence in Hayes' election, the Republicans agreed to withdraw federal troops from the South, ending Reconstruction. The Compromise effectively ceded power in the Southern states to the Democratic Redeemers.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)republicans in congress. Senate republicans will go along with it as well because apparently Moscow Mitch can see the loser writing on the wall even for the senate.
Republicans can never tell me about Patriotism, the Constitution nor Democracy again.
Make America Great Again is a effing lie.
usaf-vet
(6,200 posts)Never again!
johnthewoodworker
(694 posts)spanone
(135,862 posts)ancianita
(36,132 posts)KS Toronado
(17,309 posts)after he loses, or heaven forbid they should get their guns and take care of liberals or blacks for him, starting
another civil war. Pray it doesn't happen.
not_the_one
(2,227 posts)If you aren't ready, you should GET ready. And that is as much an admonition for MENTAL preparedness as defense/protection preparedness.
The haters, the rednecks, the bigots, the prejudiced, the privileged, the pious will NOT be the ones deciding WHAT America is. THAT is a discussion that I am going to be a part of. I believe there are a LOT MORE of US than there are of THEM. We fight with the vengeance of what is the TRUTH, and what is RIGHT. They fight with the vengeance of FEAR and LIES.
wnylib
(21,582 posts)They also have a lot of former military among them. That's not a reason to avoid resisting them. it's just a reality that I think we should be prepared for.
hadEnuf
(2,211 posts)They have gone too far and will have nothing to lose.
wnylib
(21,582 posts)blakstoneranger
(333 posts)Remember, he won in 2016, he admitted to accepting help from foreign enemies. We know russia interfered in our election processes. He accused the US of rigging the election for hillary clinton. HOW IS HE CHEATING THIS TIME, WHO'S HELPING HIM. HOW IS BARR INVOLVED. WE NEED TO ENSURE BIDEN IS PROTECTED. THERE ARE NO LIMITS TO HIS GREED FOR POWER. WE NEED TO WATCH HIM VERY CLOSELY. TRUMP IS GOING TO STEAL THE ELECTION RIGHT FROM UNDER OUR NOSES.
ancianita
(36,132 posts)Americans have to stop being believers in a system that is being smashed right in front of them. Either work to save it or sit with a child's hope that someone or some nation will save them.
We have to have more than one plan if this happens.
At the very least, and with no guarantee of success, our Party leaders MUST have an ACTION PLAN for best case and especially worst case scenarios.
Worst case especially, because no one can afford to think a fascist "winner" won't come for every single last person who voted against him. And every medium -- tv, radio, social media and Internet media -- that helped them.
It's valuable to consider again who besides Trump, from bottom to top, benefits from the end of elections. Who will control communications, food supplies, health care, utilities, military, state governing, technology.
Putin, for one.
Banks, for another.
Big fossil and all other monopolies.
Gun humpers will be the new paramilitaries, along with the 70 corporate paramilitaries that already exist.
All media will be censored so that we never know the legal outcomes of this fight, if he moves quickly between November 4 and January.
-- Advertising media, various media, content, buying and placement for advertising
-- Broadcast media, communications delivered over mass electronic communication networks
-- Digital media, electronic media used to store, transmit, and receive digitized information
-- Electronic media, communications delivered via electronic or electromechanical means
-- Interactive media, media that is interactive
-- Mass media, all networks of mass information and communication
-- Multimedia, communications that incorporate multiple forms of information content and processing
-- New media, the combination of traditional media and computer and communications technology
-- News media, mass media focused on communicating news
-- Print media, communications delivered via paper or canvas
-- Published media, any media made available to the public
-- Recording media, devices used to store information
-- Social media, media disseminated through social interactions
Right now that's all I can think of.
FM123
(10,054 posts)Rachel had a great episode the other night about the takeover of Voice of America.
Under the president's control US funded broadcasters could turn into a presidential propaganda machine.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jun/18/voice-of-america-independence-fears-after-trump-ally-purges-senior-officials
ancianita
(36,132 posts)Believe that.
And Americans SHOULD RIGHT NOW CALL FOR INTERNATIONAL ELECTION OBSERVERS.
MomInTheCrowd
(269 posts)That may sound crazy.... but ....
ancianita
(36,132 posts)JudyM
(29,270 posts)ancianita
(36,132 posts)It was done with the recent DC protests, which is why outside film crews came in to cover everything.
Did you notice any people using their phones during the protests? Not for nothing, the ACLU and EFF tell people to leave their phones home; and if they have them, how to make them secure, stuff like turning off their cellular connection, bluetooth, and turning on Airplane Mode.
(One way to find this out is to frame an explicit question to Google followed by two ?? Another is to go to Google Images and type in the same question to get a whole lineup of sources that never appear on the first two pages of Google (since their exposure is bought). )
Response to ancianita (Reply #21)
wnylib This message was self-deleted by its author.
nature-lover
(1,470 posts)SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)Dirtdude
(47 posts)Am I the only one who thinks this administration/Putin will engineer some high profile vote by mail fraud as a pretext for ignoring the results?
ancianita
(36,132 posts)who'd likely run this false flag op.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)this is a surprise???
Response to highplainsdem (Original post)
Dirtdude This message was self-deleted by its author.
merrifield
(73 posts)Here's what they could cook up: "someone" (foreign govt, dirty trickster GOP) sends people realistic looking fake ballots. Many people have never voted by mail before, keep in mind. The person fills it out and sends it in, but it goes to an address that looks legit, but is NOT the county elections board. Then the real ballot comes in the mail and the voter is confused, possibly worried about being charged with "voter fraud" (remember the black woman sentenced to 5 yrs ?) and so just doesn't send it in. Then add in "news" stories about people supposedly finding pallets of fake ballots coming in from Mexico or somewhere. This adds to their meme of voter fraud. Now add in the fact that more Dems vote by mail than Republicans and that it could happen that on Nov 3 Trump is temporarily ahead because of this, ie, all the mails ins haven't been counted. BUT, they will pound in the story of voter fraud and say, OK, since we really don't know, let's just count the votes cast in the traditional way. Then, Republican governors in swing states declare that because of so much "fraud" they won't count them either, so there you are: Trump wins. I know I have a fertile imagination, but this could actually happen.
ancianita
(36,132 posts)moose65
(3,168 posts)The three states that gave Trump his victory - Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania- now have Democratic governors. Governors have a lot of power in making sure elections are carried out correctly. North Carolina also now has a Dem governor. This will not be the same as 2016!
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)Prior to the election, he was asked if he would honor the election outcome if Hillary prevailed:
"With less than 3 weeks left until Election Day, the bitter contest between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump escalated again into sharp, personal attacks during the final presidential debate of 2016. The Republican nominee said he may not accept the results of November's election and reserves the right to file a legal challenge".
This is a fascist's final tool. In a world where, historically, Democrats refuse to legally pursue the legitimacy of an election (Al Gore in 2000 comes to mind) for the better good of the nation, it's time we vigorously re-examine that approach. We've essentially been under a Putinesque rule since 2017 and this may be the crossroads in which we determine whether America is the shining example of democracy we like to herald, or a failed democracy that allowed ignorance and apathy to overwhelm the public and cause it to negligently piss it all away.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,403 posts)c-rational
(2,595 posts)the serious fighting now, and by that I mean the fight over the SDNY appointment as well as Barr's impeachment. All Dems need concise and loud talking points to be repeated hourly, including calling out the Dumpster on his plan.
ancianita
(36,132 posts)be more serious coordination of groups of executers of an action plan.
The National Governors Association is one.
The ACLU.
Silicon Valley and its platforms.
The Pentagon.
All the executives of the above that have benefitted from democratic economic leadership will lose, and be closed in on, if the Trump demolition of three branches gets any further after Nov 3.
PRETZEL
(3,245 posts)but these 2 know better than to just leave these here without putting the reality of the process,
Yes, Barr and the Trump Campaign, as well alot of state election officials will do as much as they can to suppress the vote, that's a given and has been the R's m.o. for decades, and fighting that is key this cycle,
but, also remember, the Presidential vote is really designed to vote for the delegates to the electoral college and it's up to each state to decide but most are winner take all,
but more importantly, it's up the the campaign of the candidate challenging the election of any state to pay for any recount. Can you imagine a scenario where Trump loses PA by 2 points and for him to make up those votes, he has to challenge the vote in Philly or Pittsburgh where the vast majority of voters reside? Or, expanding that, having to pay for a recount in each of the suburban counties of those 2 cities to try and make up the difference?
Now imagine him having to do the same in Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Florida possibly, and on and on?
If he does that, the real strong perception will be that of someone who's desperate (or knows what needs to be done to fix the recounts).
calimary
(81,440 posts)Or just do another one one of those meh, snot gunna happen... naive stupid-shit reactions again?
ancianita
(36,132 posts)Which is why we need coordination with large telecom, legal, military and foreign observers, with an action plan from each of them to neutralize all the ambushes, should the ambushes be attempted.
SKKY
(11,818 posts)...I didn't share that opinion before, but now I'm fairly certain he will initiate massive court challenges all over the place. It's going to be mayhem.
MomInTheCrowd
(269 posts)Get ahold of your Secretary of State, volunteer at your precinct, be there at the polls, be a poll watcher, counter the narrative every way you can. NOW.
LaMouffette
(2,039 posts)". . . WILL BE PRINTED BY FOREIGN COUNTRIES, AND OTHERS. IT WILL BE THE SCANDAL OF OUR TIMES!"
This is what the Mango Menace tweeted today. In full:
"RIGGED 2020 ELECTION: MILLIONS OF MAIL-IN BALLOTS WILL BE PRINTED BY FOREIGN COUNTRIES, AND OTHERS. IT WILL BE THE SCANDAL OF OUR TIMES!"
Since Trump is, without a doubt, the poster child of psychological projection, and fence-post stupid to boot (per Stephen King's excellent summary of Trump), then he has just TOLD us one strategy that will almost certainly be used by the Trump campaign, by Trump cult followers, by Vladimir Putin, and by any countries that Trump has successfully "pulled a Ukraine" on (pressured them to help him win in 2020). Yes, there WILL be fraudulent ballots flooding this year's electionscourtesy of Trump et al.
Even if the fraudulent ballots are detected and not counted in favor of any candidate, they will still cause disruption and allow to Trump to bray that the election was rigged. In fact, for that reason alone, they will want the fake ballots to be discovered.
This is very similar to what Trump's supporters did during the Iowa primary by calling in and jamming the Democratic Party phone lines on election night. Chaos, disruption, uncertainty, . . . !
The question now is how do we react? I think the candidates need to start their own counter-propoganda strategy NOW and run ads on TV and online warning that Trump and Russia and Trump's supporters will be printing counterfeit ballots. We need to call them on it before they do their first fake ballot dump.
Fight back NOW, Dems, against the fraudulent "voter fraud" that has already begun to be unleashed against us!
ancianita
(36,132 posts)ballots, to delivery of ballots, to counters, to securing state servers, to certification of votes to legal teams, to defend all GOP/Putin/Trump challenges at every level.
Response to ancianita (Reply #49)
Mme. Defarge This message was self-deleted by its author.
bluestarone
(17,025 posts)HE and PUTIN have THIS plan. They COULD very much mess our election up!! I also worry about the person RUMP put in the postal service, SOMETHING will happen we know this!!!
Nitram
(22,861 posts)The only way we can shut this asshole up is to put him behind bars.
ancianita
(36,132 posts)THEN put him behind bars. Hoist by his own petard.
AleksS
(1,665 posts)Hes just leaving important context out.
Foreign countries WILL print millions of ballots. There WILL be unprecedented levels of fraud.
BUT
Its BY Trump, Russia, N. Korea, etc.
Hes absolutely telling the truth. Hes just leaving out that his team is the one doing it.
dem4evah
(75 posts)but more than that, I'm starting to worry about some of my fellow DU'ers. Don't let this miserable excuse for a human being cow you into thinking he 'won't go' and all this other BS. My god, Gorsuch and Roberts just dealt him two humiliating defeats. Sure, he'll try all sorts of sordid, desperate, maniacal garbage after he loses on 11/3 but people have had their fill of him. BY AND LARGE they've had their fill that is. Sure, he's polling consistently at 40% but it's probably going to go down the more he self destructs. STAY the course, help out the Biden Campaign (like I am) and most of all....don't panic. He's starting to crack and getting sloppier by the day. 4 months and 10 days until we vote him OUT once and for all.
Mme. Defarge
(8,040 posts)thesquanderer
(11,990 posts)To help people trust that the reported election numbers statistically align with how people say they voted.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)Locrian
(4,522 posts)he's the perfect goon to "find" the planted ballots and help create the chaos
Larry Moecurley
(72 posts)Trump will not take NO for an answer, and we'd damn well better get ready to fight back!
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)for voting like our democracy depends on it because it does.
bucolic_frolic
(43,258 posts)2016 distorted minds, general disinformation and lies and propaganda, key counties that mysteriously came up spades. Did they ever recount those places? Was it a fair roll, or no dice.
How should Democrats worry?
Multigenerational conclaves of extended families and churches, across geographies, worry me.
I think the focus on mail-in voter fraud is so pronounced that it is meant to distract Democratic campaign operatives from the real steal.
There are also choke points in voting. Any number of points along the process of registering to the final tally have opportunity for a couple of dishonest sifting.
Steelrolled
(2,022 posts)The news media (and us sadly) will get all worked up.
And then on January 20, he'll move out of the White House. I doubt he stops his tweeting, but that is another thing (and I don't care).
JudyM
(29,270 posts)marie999
(3,334 posts)It would take months. In that case, no one would be elected by January 20, 2021. The XX Amendment to the Constitution is very plain that his presidency and vice-presidency end on that day and with no one elected, the Speaker of the House becomes president. Do you think that the Republicans will be happy with Pelosi as president? That is why they will not allow trump to do anything stupid.
RussBLib
(9,034 posts)is Trump himself, obviously.
He's trying to psych people out. He knows we know he uses lots of projection. So...project something big. Yuge.
What kind of power-mad freak is this anyway?
We may have to pry him outta there, but if we have to...
honest.abe
(8,684 posts)His mob connections in Russia will plant the evidence to give his claims credibility. He will try to escalate it all the way to SCOTUS where he hopes his RW judges will back him.
onetexan
(13,056 posts)another day in politics
Dukkha
(7,341 posts)so he is carried out feet first from the White House.
the_sly_pig
(741 posts)Dont think it cant happen.
oldsoftie
(12,587 posts)Period.
It only makes him look more pitiful.
A trump loss should be by at LEAST 6-8 points if things stay as they are now. And a large electoral loss will be hard to call "fraud"
But yes, his followers are already screaming about stealing the election
live love laugh
(13,124 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,839 posts)@$$#0[3 President.. Biden said if he wins, Mr. Trump will be hand carried out of the White house and charged for Tress passing. lol wouldn't that be sweet.
happyez
(10 posts)Every one of these points, and ideas on how Trump etc can rig the election, need to be taken into account.
If the Biden campaign haven't done this yet, here is what I would do if I had an hour minimum with the higherups.
Under the banner of 'what will Trump do before, during and after Nov 3', I'd break the team into 3 groups.
Each must do a brainstorming session (divergent thinking) and then finding the most likely scenarios to work on (convergent thinking).
Any and every possibility is on the cards (e.g. Blackwater troops; any underground militias (the fat old blokes) being trained by Russian or North Korean special forces; fradulent mail ballots; lawsuits by the thousands; Repub states siding with Trump; 'accidental' deaths; sabatours; some arcane law being brought back into action; arrest of House and Senate dems under trumped up charges etc.)
in fact, every point made in this thread goes into the pot.
Which has the greatest likelihood? Experts in all fields will tell you. Bring them in.
Then line up what we can do against this, and start planning now. This itself is also a SWOT analysis (in W, would be lines like 'but Trump will be hauled out by troops and Biden will be the new CinC!'). Anything that sounds like 'lets reach across the aisle' 'we go high when they go low' is not going to be helpful in front of a fascistic system. Anyone that reminds you of the German KPD/SPD spat from 1933-1936, thinking the NS will fall in a heap, needs to be put aside. We're the ones saying we have to learn from history or we are doomed to repeat, well don't doom then!
I imagine this is being done, but just in case it isn't, this is my best suggestion on ways forward.
Hope this is helpful (this is also my first post, hope its not too intense!)